More Intuition/AK Fun

[jpmeyer]

4 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plateau
1 Plains
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria

5 Moxes
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring

1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Eternal Dragon

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Mana Leak
4 Brainstorm
3 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Cunning Wish
2 Deep Analysis
2 Intuition
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

2 Swords to Plowshares

1 Goblin Trenches

SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  3 Phyrexian Furnace
SB:  2 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 Rack and Ruin
SB:  1 Forbid
SB:  1 Disenchant
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Accumulated Knowledge
SB:  1 Stifle
SB:  1 Balance

I'll be upfront: I only made this deck because I popped a million boners over the idea of casting Intuition for Deep Anal/Deep Anal/Eternal Dragon.  Parrot says it's awesome but I make no claims as to whether or not it actually is awesome.  The numbers in it are pretty smooth in terms of what goes in and out of the board.

[Bastian]

The deck looks nice. It's cool to see some new winning conditions in control other than morphling... I have some questions:

-why just three accumulated knowledges and not four? Is it so you have an extra slot for something else and still are able to go intuition, AK for three cards?

-a single gorilla shaman with no form of tutoring other than all the ammount of card drawing... how reliably do you get it when you need it?

[theorigamist]

The 4th AK is in the sideboard to Wish for.

As for getting Shaman, it looks like mana hate is just an aside in this deck.  If it were more focused on it, there would probably be 5 Strips and 2 Shaman.  Right now, 1 Shaman is what fits comfortably and well being nice to draw, it isn't the focus of the deck.

I'd like to know why Phyrexian Furnace over Tormod's Crypt in the sideboard.  Phyrexian Furnace does target, but only if you pay for it, and you also have to pay to cast it.  Tormod's Crypt just seems a better choice overall.

Also, there's plenty of colorless stuff in casting costs.  Would you consider Mana Crypt?  It speed up Fact or Fiction, cycles Eternal Dragon, pays for Intuitions, Cunning Wishes, and activates Trenches.

[Dave Kaplan]

Mana Crypt? I suggest a guideline of recomending only 1 Crypt per comment pls thx

[jpmeyer]

I mostly took Furance because I saw it as a more difficult card for Rector decks to stop than Crypt.  I figured that with all their Therapies and Duresses, they might be able to set up a turn where they sac a Rector, you Crypt it, and then they drop another and kill you or they might have Stifle or whatnot.  Furnace also keeps them from being able to randomly Therapy you since you can munch it up and still have it ready to stop Rectors.

According to Semen Man, the deck should probably have Duress.  There's obviously room for it (although then I'd need to cut another card for Will) but the addition of black means the whole SB needs to get retooled, with most likely my beloved Furnaces turning into 2 Coffin Purges and then opening the Furnace #3 slot and the Stifle slot.

[theorigamist]

Once you add black for Duress, Will, and (presumably) tutors, and sideboard goodies, aren't you just heading towards Keeper?

[jpmeyer]

Quote (theorigamist @ Aug. 24 2003,19:18)Once you add black for Duress, Will, and (presumably) tutors, and sideboard goodies, aren't you just heading towards Keeper?

Nope, because Keeper is a bad deck that thinks that it's a control deck despite having only 2-3 draw effects.

ANGRY DRAGON AKA Unbad Keeper:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Plateau
1 Scrubland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria

5 Moxes
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring

1 Eternal Dragon

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
3 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Cunning Wish
2 Deep Analysis
2 Intuition
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

4 Duress
1 Yawgmoth's Will

2 Swords to Plowshares

1 Goblin Trenches

SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  2 Coffin Purge
SB:  2 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 Rack and Ruin
SB:  1 Abeyance
SB:  1 Disenchant
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Accumulated Knowledge
SB:  1 FLAMING Gambit
SB:  1 Vampiric Tutor
SB:  1 Balance\n\n

[MuzzonoAmi]

Have you tested the Hulk matchup yet? I have very limited experience with the deck, and have never seen a mirror. How does the draw engine battling work out? Is it whoever casts a big AK first probably looses? Or is it more skill dependent?

I like this alot, but given my power situation (3 Moxes, Twister, Ancestral) I'm not sure if I can play it. Is a quasi-budget version possible/viable?

[Bastian]

Why no Demonic Tutor?

[jpmeyer]

Quote (MuzzonoAmi @ Aug. 24 2003,21:55)Have you tested the Hulk matchup yet? I have very limited experience with the deck, and have never seen a mirror. How does the draw engine battling work out? Is it whoever casts a big AK first probably looses? Or is it more skill dependent?

I like this alot, but given my power situation (3 Moxes, Twister, Ancestral) I'm not sure if I can play it. Is a quasi-budget version possible/viable?

I think it might work with just 3 Moxes.  At first I was debating only running 3 Moxes (don't run Twister because it messes up Intuition) and running a Scrubland and probably the 4th Underground Sea.  I had Mana Leak then so the Moxes mattered more but I can see it working since Trenches and Dragon reward playing more land.

I think this deck should have a slightly favorable matchup against Hulk.  It has a few more mana which makes the later game better for you.  You should be able to make it later in the game because Goblin Trenches and Swords to Plowshares forces the Hulk player to spend more time setting up.

The no DT is mostly an experiment.  I figured that since I'm not running lots of various tutors it's not like I'm getting say, 4 Wills and since my 1-ofs are mostly victory conditions I figure I shouldn't need to hurry on them.

[MuzzonoAmi]

Let us know how this tutor-less experiment works out. And what drove you to run the Forbid in the sideboard? A specific hate card for some deck I don't know about, or more just a reusable, Wishable counterspell? I like it, but it just struck me as kind of odd.

[kl0wn]

Quote (jpmeyer @ Aug. 24 2003,17:06)ANGRY DRAGON AKA Unbad Keeper:

Where's Anger?

[rozetta]

You're running white and no balance?

[PsychoCid]

I'll be upfront: This is my deck with the justifiable alteration of the AK engine over Phids.  As Matt made it overly clear to me, Ophidian is no better than Hypnotic Specter, at this point.  One card to replace itself, one card to replace an opponents, and finally a third to begin gaining advantage.

I had been pushing the LD aspect of the deck to its heights--one can see why it might be dropped in the interest of smoothness.  Are we safe, at this point, against Workshops and such?

My _only_ other issue is trying to run 4 duress on ~8 sources and a Lotus.  What else can I say?

Edit:  There are a few reasons Balance sticks to a sideboard slot rather than being included maindeck, even when you're not reliant on Phids.
One is space:  As you can see, the deck is fairly tight--Duress is the only card that might be willing to give up a slot or two.
Another reason is the draw engine.  If you're to be facing a horde, you'll likely fire off a frenzy of draw, searching for that bomb.  Here, your draw is all cumulative.  If you Balance after all that (although Deep Anal in the grave is groovy), you'll be throwing away just as many cards as they'll be losing, if not more.
A somewhat linked reason is that he's nearly tutorless (one Vamp in side for which one of three Cunning Wishes may be used).  That makes the above situation more common.\n\n

[Zherbus]

The comparison people want to make is to Hulk, not Keeper. Changing from White to Green is a big deal because of Berserk and Artifact Mutation, which leads to running a far inferior kill condition and an inferior card versus Mud/Stax. Because this runs an inferior win condition, it loses the ability to combo out which opens up all sorts of badness especially where Sligh is concerned.

[jeek]

With only Intuition and Saclands for shuffling effects, is Brainstorm's effectiveness reduced? Have you considered running Impulse instead, to dig deeper, at the expense of throwing bad cards-in-hand back into your deck for later?

[Mellow D]

@jeek:  
If you compare to Zherbus' Keeper decklist in the EVF, his runs only 8 shuffle effects:
1 Timetwister
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Fetches

You're only 7 with this deck, but then again, you do have the benefit of a better draw engine in Intuition/AK/DeepAnal.  I think that the Brainstorms are still in because the draw engine digs deep already.  You're likely to draw a shuffle effect and/or Brainstorm anyway.  So, why then the need for Impulse (ignoring the extra mana cost)?\n\n

[jpmeyer]

Balance:

I honestly think that Balance just isn't that in the current format.  Right now if we consider the "good" decks to be:

Hulk, Keeper, Phid, Mud (control)
Long.dec, Tendrils, Dragon (combo)
Mask decks, Gobbos (aggro)

Balance is really probably only good against Mask and probably Phid decks.  Hulk is complicated because of Deep Analysis.  Keeper will probably have fewer cards in hand than you, and Mud will have no cards in hand and fewer land.  They are horrible against combo because Long.dec can dump its entire hand and then refill with draw-7s, Tendrils can sac Rector (and also can dump its hand quickly,) and the discard can actually help Dragon dump combo pieces into the yard.  Lastly, Gobbos can dump its hand extremely fast and there's also the threat of Fireblast.

Shufflers:

People forgetting Eternal Dragon.  I also like to count FoF as card to use with Brainstorm since it can get rid of crap like shufflers can but also can be used in other synergistic ways like putting DA or Dragon on top.

Tutors:

If you cut the situational cards from your deck, you suddenly don't need tutors any more.

[SliverKing]

No one respects the Dragon!!!!


I should have kept count of how many people had to read the card when I used it at GenCon. I loved it!

(Eternally) long live the DRAGON!!!

[Ufactor, the Restricted]

reiterating stuff I posted in other forums: how does this beat pre-sideboarded, keeper-hate Sligh?  PoP, Ankh and Pyrostatic Pillar are giving me fits.  I wanna put ZOrb back in, but it's obviously no longer an option.


...please not that my meta is screwy and has no Tainted Mask, Venguer, Stax, or Mud due to budget restrictions.  Sligh is the aggro deck of choice and can make up to a third of the field.

[jpmeyer]

Quote (Ufactor, the Restricted @ Aug. 25 2003,16:04)reiterating stuff I posted in other forums: how does this beat pre-sideboarded, keeper-hate Sligh?  PoP, Ankh and Pyrostatic Pillar are giving me fits.  I wanna put ZOrb back in, but it's obviously no longer an option.


...please not that my meta is screwy and has no Tainted Mask, Venguer, Stax, or Mud due to budget restrictions.  Sligh is the aggro deck of choice and can make up to a third of the field.

If someone is playing hate Sligh I will just hope to not meet them round 1, after which I won't have to worry about them.

[IvoryGargoyle]

I tested the deck a little myself as I was very excited about the idea of Intuitioning for a Dragon and plainscycling for a Tundra.   Anyway, tested against TnT. I used your exact list with the black in it.
     Believe it or not, after drawing lots of cards and countering some spells, I didn't have any threats. The Wishes made for stabilizing easier, but once I did... One Dragon and one Trenches just doesn't seem to be enough and I wasn't impressed with the Trenches. I could be wrong since I'm more new to Type 1, but I either lacked mana or simply couldn't afford to sac my land as I needed it every turn. 15 real land (not counter fetchers) just doesn't seem to be enough. I had trouble casting Duress as well, so the Plains turned into a Scrubland. I also removed the Trenches and turned it into a second Dragon.
     I love your Sideboard. It was perfect.

Just my thoughts.

[Setnakt]

How well is the 4th AK in the board working out? Do you run into an AK before Intuitioning very often? Generally if I do that I think it's cool but that's because I use 4 main in all of my builds. But yeah, do you just not care about it and go Intuition for Deep As or something if it comes up and you're not able to push it down with a Brainstorm in a timely manner? Probably a minor concern, I'd just like to know how well this strategy works out for such a deck.

[jpmeyer]

I editted the second list again, switching the plains for a Scrubland (which has been sooooo good) and by cutting the SB Forbid for an Abeyance so that I have something to Wish for (while it's not a hoser, it's still a good default target) against non-Rector combo.

I figured that control and combo are the best decks in the field.  Against combo it really doesn't matter which draw engine you use, but against control you really want to Intuition for DA/DA/Dragon and not really the AKs.

Also, the 4th AK is a great card to board in when there are lots of cards you want to cut, such as the Wishes when you play against Gobbos.

I think ther are a couple important questions regarding this deck: what makes Keeper Keeper?  How does the presence of Intuition alter this?  Why can Keeper get away without using much draw?  Should it?

If the answer to these questions makes this deck "not Keeper," I think the final conclusion that can be drawn is "Keeper is dead.  Long live Hulk."

[Rico Suave]

I think one of the things that makes Keeper Keeper is the presence of multiple Wastelands.  Or at least a very good portion of mana denial.

[PsychoCid]

What makes Keeper Keeper is a pile of good defensive cards and knowledge of how to use them.  As many people have said before, you can make any number of adjustments to the deck (if you know what you're doing) and still have it remain Keeper.

My list seems to match everyone else's now that they've all converted to Scrub(land)s.

[IvoryGargoyle]

This is my current list:

4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Plateau
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Strip Mine
1 LoA
7 SoLoMoxen

2 Eternal Dragon

1 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Duress
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Intuition
2 Deep Analysis
3 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Cunning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

Board:
3 REB
1 Rack n Ruin
1 Flaming Gambit
2 Coffin Purge
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance
1 Disenchant
1 AK
1 BEB
1 Goblin Trenches (wasn't impressed with it main, but I do know why its there. Just doesn't seem to be enough land...)

[PsychoCid]

Please don't post a list without much to say about it.  As a mod, I really dislike it when people waste much space posting decklists that are nearly identical to those before it.  It's far easier and clearer to say "I dropped card X for card Y because I felt that Z."

Not that there needs to be much discussion about the deck since it is strictly inferior to Tog, but your choices are quite bizarre.

Do note that as time went on t2 Trenches and Tog became more and more alike with basically just the kill mech and the manabase making the different.  Here, though, Tog has a very clear advantage (and likely did there, as well) in that it can pull a combo kill of sorts.

Trenches is the main kill of the deck and one which I use most often.  I've never had trouble with not having enough land beyond the statistical mana screw count.  Dragon is likely to need more land than Trenches would.  You really don't need to sacrifice a whole lot unless you're going for the gusto quickly.  One or two will do and you don't -have- to use it immediately, anyhow.

Duress isn't the same tool here it would be in, say, Zherbus' build of Keeper.  You want it early and often.  The deck really wants four but may be forced to use only three because of mana issues.  I might advise running a Mystical Tutor if you have the room.  Despite redundancy, I've learned that the deck very much enjoys a dash of tutoring beyond Intuition/Wish.

Also, without Phids or Leaks that really, really appreciate acceleration, the Emerald is loser material.  It has screwed me more than once.  Trash it for a land is my advice.

I notice that you're running 27 mana sources when the rest of us (well, Jaypee and I) are functioning nicely on 26.  27 -and- two plainscycling dragons is a lot of space used up...I suppose it's alright if you're really having mana trouble...but just go play Tog. =)\n\n

[Ufactor, the Restricted]

What makes Keeper Keeper?

     a)  A blue-based deck that effectively has an answer to anything (if allowed sufficient resources) is what makes Keeper itself.  Combo Control (Hulk or Counter-Trix now and BBS and OSE two years ago) on the other hand cuts specific answer cards in order to fit more counters, search and draw.  The trade off is that threats will hit the board that cannot be dealt with directly so that the only option is to just go broken and win.  In the latter case, the best defense is a good offense-allow me a moment of corniness to say that it's like a Jeet Kun Do approach whereas Keeper would be Aikido.

b) Keeper is also defined by the ability to use all the best cards from each color plus lands and artifacts.  the fact that Keeper only plays four colors right now is not to say that "Green is completely useless", but that it's not worth complicating that mana base for Sylvan, Regrowth or Compost
The presence of white for Balance, COP: Red and Aura Fracture goes along with this.

c) Keeper will always be a deck that at least looks good on paper no matter how long the B&R List gets.  With the exception of Force of Will (and that restriction would ruin the format), no ruling can completely shut it down.  By comparison, any combo deck can be crippled by taking the engine away.  Like BBS, Hulk is one restriction away from extinction (Accumulated Knowledge, Psychatog and possibly Deep Anal).

[kirdape3]

I would laugh, then cry, then be disgusted if they restricted Deep Analysis.

The only restriction that would completely screw Tog is, well, Tog.  And even then the deck would be more than adaptable with 1 Psychatog/1 (other kill mechanism, perhaps Morphling but ewwwwwwww :/) and then two Deeds maindecked.