4C White

[Bastian]

Monowhite WW simply doesn't make the cut if you want to go competitive and so I splashed. Splashing just blue I could face off combo and stax (with the help of meddling mage and energy flux) a little better, but still I found problems trying to fight other decks...

Splashing red made the deck faster and added more removal, but the deck didn't work quite as well vs combo. So, in order to really improve the deck I had to splash more than just a color in the deck.

4C White

3 Jackal Pup
4 Savannah Lions
4 Soltari Priest
4 Soltari Monk
4 Meddling Mage

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Seal of Cleansing
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Null Rod

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Sylvan Library

3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Savannah
4 Tundra
4 Plateau
3 Plains

SB:
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 True Believer
4 Artifact Mutation
3 Tormod’s Crypt

The deck can offer answers to just about any deck there is right now, and become even better after siding in what it needs.

I'm not sure if I should pack Energy Flux. At 3cc it can be pushing the deck a bit too much and I'm concerned I may not have the mana I need when I need to play it. The deck really doesn't want to stretch itself beyond the 2cc spells.

I could have packed gorilla shamans instead of the null rods, but shamans require mana to be used and rods stop a lot more artifacts. Besides, the pups attack for 1 more damage point.

There are some problems concerning the mana base. I'm not sure yet if it's the mana base that needs tweaking or if I'm just making the bad calls when it comes to fetch the land I need. Sometimes you want green to be able to play artifact mutation, sometimes you want blue to play meddling mage or ancestral and others you want red to play burn and next yourself with the land you previously needed in play not helping you cast the spells you want to in your hand...

With further play and tuning this should become less of a problem though.

Suggestions? Opinions?

[jpmeyer]

Wild Mongrel!

[Bastian]

Damn... I'll end up running far more green than what I had originally in mind. Wild Mongrel seems like a nice idea... what do you suggest I pull out? Soltari Monk? If so shouldn't I pull out the priest as well and put in Silver Knight?

[Diablos8]

Hi. Nice idea with the deck.

I see your iffy about pushing over the 3c limit, but I think Energy Flux is stricly better than Artifact Mutation. The Stax player can always work around Artifact Mutation, but Energy Flux can shut them out the entire game.

[Matt The Great]

At this point, wouldn't it be better to make some other color the main focus and just splash white?

[Bastian]

I'll give it a thought, if I can think of better creatures for the spots of the soltaris.

[Matt The Great]

You could go black and use those shadow guys, plus you'd get Duress (sweet) and Cabal Therapy (great with all the creatures in the deck). Withered Wretch is a good two-drop too.

[Bastian]

If you notice most of the spells in the deck just demand one of a type of colored mana, while the only ones demanding two colored mana of the same color are the creatures.

Trying to use both white weenies and stuff like withered wretch seems counter producing since I would have to make a big investment in b/w lands to make it work and still I could have some problems pulling out the mana I needed when I wanted to play a creature.

I might end up splashing black for utility or even go a black route and splash something else, but I want to keep the colors in check so as to not stray from my original idea and not mess up the mana base a lot.

EDIT: I tried to test the idea... and what I thought prooved itself. It's too hard keeping the soltari monks and priests, so one can replace them with dauthi slayer and horror... But if you count the cards by now: Dauthi Slayer, Dauthi Horror, Withered Wretch, Duress, Cabal Therapy... If I'm going THIS way then I'm not playing my deck anymore and I'm playing suicide black.

Black offers good disruption, but it lacks the versatility of the burn spells which provide me with something that I can use just about any time, unlike duress and therapy which, although very good, are not likely to be as good vs certain decks, like aggro for example.\n\n

[MuzzonoAmi]

Why not just go W/r/u, swapping Artifact Mutation for Energy Flux, and Sylvan for Fact or Fiction (or some other draw spell)? It weould seem to make you more consistent, and blue has its fair share of reasonable dorks, like Spindrift Drake. Not quite sure what you'd cut for them, but by cutting a color you can run more basic lands, which is always a good thing.

Edit: spelling\n\n

[Windfall]

Are you using the shadow guys (Soltari Priest and Monk) for their evasion ability or protection?  The non-shadow guys (White and Silver Knight) might be better, as White Knight can block Psychatog and Nantuko Shade forever.  In the current meta, there really is no need for excess evasion, and you have burn/Swords to remove opposing creatures.  It's more of a "Just-in-case" to have creatures that can block the problem black creatures that can kill you in matter of one or two turns.

I think you should use 4 Jackal Pups.  They're so useful to you in the early game, especially because you have Savannah Lions too.  Eight one-drop 2/1s would pretty much guarantee that you can drop one on the first turn, putting your opponent on a clock early.

Null Rod is a very good card in WW, since you are stopping two of your greatest enemies: Masticore and Keg.  Too bad it doesn't provide a ton of protection against Stax, but being a creature horde style deck, you have some resiliance to it already.

Because you have this natural advantage to MUD (and related) decks, you may not need Artifact Mutation.  You can live without the Silvan Library, and it will smooth your deck a bit.  Sacred Ground is a good card for White to board in against Stax.  It's also good against any other deck that packs multiple Wastelands or land kill, as I'm noticing that you have many non-basic lands.

Four Seal of Cleansings seem a little bit much to me.  You can definately make use of a couple in any matchup, but you won't need 4 against every deck.  Many of the things that you can use it against are slowed (or stopped) by Null Rod anyway.  I'm afraid you'll be topdecking artifact hate when you actually need threats or other answers.  Maybe you can run 3 Seals on the board and have an Aura of Silence maindeck, as this card by itself will help you against combo, Stax, TnT, Mask, etc.

The deck you posted has a lot of redundancy.  Since you have so many four-ofs, you will be strong in top-deck mode.  But I'm looking for a way to add more draw to the deck.  Perhaps you could make use of a Wheel of Fortune like traditional WrWeenie decks.  The boost it offers is very helpful when you can dump your hand quickly and unleash several threats a turn.

Going the way others have suggested and adding Black will give you Skeletal Scrying, which would be excelent.

I think changing this deck to a Black base would be a mistake.  White creatures are far tougher than Black ones.  The only thing I would miss is the ability to run Withered Wretch.

Graveyard removal is solved by using Crypts, but I would prefer Phyrexian Furnace.  Both are stopped by the Null Rod, which is terrible, but the Furnace is useful in multiples.  Crypt is not.  Many times, when you board in three Tormod's Crypts, you draw more than one and you can't get a use out of them all, making them dead draws.  Furnace is strong when you have more than one out because you remove more, and because you can cycle the ones you don't need.  Since the deck is lacking in card-draw, they will help you.

But the deck looks fun and powerful.  I don't think Green belongs; I would favor Black for Duress, Tutors, and Scrying.

     ~Mark\n\n

[Bastian]

Quote The non-shadow guys (White and Silver Knight) might be better, as White Knight can block Psychatog and Nantuko Shade forever.

Not quite... Although a White Knight can block and keep blocking a shade and go unblocked if the defending player only has a psychatog, if said psychatog attacks for a large sum of damage and has trample (thanks to Berserk), then no creature you use to block it will save you.

Four Seals may indeed be too much, but with the ammount of artifact decks you find nowadays they seemed like a good option. But since not all decks are packing maindeck artifact or enchantments I'll probably cut down the number of seals by one or two.

Fact or Fiction or Skeletal Scrying, that some people suggested, are a bit too expensive to be used. Fact or Fiction is four mana and I'm not using any kind of mana acceleration and scrying goes the same route. I wanna be playing it to draw at least three cards and that costs me four mana like FoF. Playing it to draw 2 cards is really not worth it either. I spend two life and three mana to just 2 cards... Not good enough.

I may, however, cut down sylvan library and a couple of seals to use 3 brainstorms. With 3 brainstorms and an ancestral I have four cards that dig deeper into the deck. If I cut down a fetchie as well I can run 4 brainstorms.

Tormod's Crypt can be used before Null Rod hits the table. Sure Phyrexian Furnace can too, but it takes too much time to have as much of an impact as the crypt does, and by then Null Rod should be in hand.

Here's an example of the deck as it stands now:

Stars and Stripes

4 Jackal Pup
4 Savannah Lions
4 Soltari Priest
4 Soltari Monk
4 Meddling Mage

2 Seal of Cleansing
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt

4 Null Rod

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Brainstorm

2 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Tundra
4 Plateau
3 Plains

SB:
1 Seal of Cleansing
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 True Believer
4 Energy Flux
3 Morningtide

I'm happy to have more card drawing effects. I could use a full set of brainstorms but since I'm using Ancestral I end up with a set of four card drawing effects still.

Green went out and with it a fetchland. I won't have so many mana issues now and a fetchland becomes a pup. Pups really should come in 4s as someone suggested. I want to be attacking and winning the game as soon as possible. Pups come before the 2cc creatures and deal the same damage, thus having them as soon as possible is good.

The soltaris allow me to attack unblocked and focus on the life total of my opponent rather than opposing creatures. They may end up being replaced though for their non-shadow counterparts (WK and silver knight).

The lonely savannah became city of brass and after that undiscovered paradise. The paradise smooths the mana a little and comes back to hand (making it harder to be destroyed).

I'm not as happy with the SB right now but I'll see how it will turn up later on.

EDIT: replaced the crypts in the SB for morningtides so as to fit the changes I made to the deck and not to post it over again.\n\n

[Windfall]

You're right about the Psychatog thing.  I forgot that Trample does not care about Protection.  Thanks for pointing that out.

It seems that Crypt is poor combined with Null Rod.  Since Null Rod must be played early to shut down SoLoMoxen and other activated artifacts, you won't be able to Crypt later when a player casts Yawgmoth's Will, Intuition, Regrowth, Replenish, Goblin Welder tricks, and so on.  I would prefer to side out the Null Rods if I'm bringing in Crypts (especially in multiples).

I wouldn't cut another Fetchland for Brainstorm #4.  You already are short on shuffle effects, and losing the Fetch would cause problems.  I see what you mean by FoF and Scrying being too expensive, but they're expensive because they're worth it.  With Brainstorm, you can throw either back early in order to cast it later when you have nothing else to do.  What are your thoughts on Wheel of Fortune?

And what is it that you are unhappy with about your sideboard?  What do you feel you're missing?  What do you have that you don't really use all the time?

     ~Mark\n\n

[Bastian]

I'm not saying that FoF or scrying are not worth it. They're great cards. But if you notice it they fit into decks that play mana acceleration and can play these spells sooner than usual: artifact mana and mana drains help playing these spells and the maximum I'm aiming for my mana curve is three mana.

You're right about the Crypt and Rod issue. So I decided to replace the crypts with Morningtide. It's not free, but at least I can have them both maindeck if I need and I can use morningtide even with null rod in play. Even though it doesn't cost 0 like the crypt does, if I'm not able to play the crypt then I won't play morningtide as well.

I'm not going to cut another fetchland for the fourth brainstorm. I think the deck's good as it is. Wheel of Fortune is worth consideration, but what will I take out then?

I don't feel quite ok knowing I'm not running as many 4 of's as I had before and I'm afraid I'll be short on what I need for some matches, but this probably won't be true.

[MuzzonoAmi]

I'm not sure of you want to go this heavily into blue, but Spindrift Drake seems to fit in here very well. Its a flying Savannah Lions, and by replacing one of the Soltari Clerics with it you greatly reduce the drawback of not being able to play a 2cc creature on turn 2, and you still get good evasion. It might be worth a try. Also, I'd try Windfall more quickly than Wheel, because Stax, Hulk, Keeper, Urphid, and alot of other popular decks like to keep a full hand, and you'll want to be playing out threats quickly methinks. It would seem that Windfall generates more card advantage than does Wheel. And what do you think about -1 Fetchland, +1 Eternal Dragon? It seems like a good closer, should you need it.

Edit: Added the thought about the dragon.\n\n

[Bastian]

Spindrift Drakes has an upkeep cost of U which makes it not so good. Don't you think that it would be a much popular card if it was just a 2/1 flyer for U with no drawbacks??

Although the deck should play itself fast it won't empty its hand completely like some other decks. I'm not to overextend myself unless I know I can play more creatures than usual and I'm not going to dump my burn foolishly at my opponent so there'll always be a couple or more cards in hand. Thus windfall isn't as good as wheel of fortune might be.

I'm already playing with fetchlands which get me lands for just 1 life. Paying 2 to fetch a land isn't exactly much, if there wasn't anything better, which we there and Eternal Dragon costs 5WW to play which is definitly prohibitive for the deck to play. By the time I have enough mana to play it the game should be already over.\n\n

[Diablos8]

Quote (Bastian @ Aug. 26 2003,18:43)Spindrift Drakes has an upkeep cost of U which makes it not so good. Don't you think that it would be a much popular card if it was just a 2/1 flyer for U with no drawbacks??

I don't really see the Upkeep cost as that bad of a drawback in this deck. With a mana-curve this low, I don't see it effecting the tempo of the deck that much.

[Bastian]

It does because if you cast it turn 1 and you want to then cast something turn 2 what happens is that either you sacrifice the drake or you don't play a creature on the turn after you played the drake. It's not a creature you want to play on turn 1, and by the second turn you have better stuff to play.

It sucks. If the upkeep wasn't so much of an hassle wouldn't more people being playing with it?

[MuzzonoAmi]

Quote (Bastian @ Aug. 27 2003,17:11)It does because if you cast it turn 1 and you want to then cast something turn 2 what happens is that either you sacrifice the drake or you don't play a creature on the turn after you played the drake. It's not a creature you want to play on turn 1, and by the second turn you have better stuff to play.

It sucks. If the upkeep wasn't so much of an hassle wouldn't more people being playing with it?

Drake doesn't get run much because its an aggressive blue creature that doesn't fit well into Fish. I'm going to test them a bit over the weekend and see what happens. If you look at your mana curve, you only have 8 creatures in the 2cc slot(Meddling Mage and Soltari Priest)  as opposed to 12 in the 1cc slot (Lions, Pup, Drake) and you have other 1cc threats, while your noncreature spells in the 2cc slot are answers, which you may not need at that point in the game.

[Bastian]

I have 12 2cc creatures: mage, priest and monk and 8 1cc creatures: lions and pups.

The drake is bad because it ruins tempo. If I want to play something else I can't because I'll be paying for its upkeep or losing a card. Now... how hard is THAT to see?

Besides, in a format that isn't so overrun by creature decks as before evasion is hardly of any matter.

[SummenSaugen]

I can not begin to express the disappointment of seeing a deck with green and white yet not packing Noble Panther.

When I was considering color splashes in WW, that was one of the few things I considered green being good for - humor.

Red and blue seem solid, but I'm not terribly convinced on the black splash.  Red and blue also both have great nonbasic hosers that you're limiting yourself from using (and making yourself more vulnerable) by this many splashes.  Would you play this over two or three color weenie?

[Bastian]

Quote Red and blue seem solid, but I'm not terribly convinced on the black splash.

Neither am I. If I consider running black in the deck it's because I'm too worried about combo and control, and if such I'd take out one of the colors. Which is NOT happening so soon.

Quote Would you play this over two or three color weenie?

The way you're talking makes me think that you're talking about the 4c white deck that I posted back in the beggining. Have you seen the three color version I made and posted later on, a R/W/U deck?

Quote Red and blue also both have great nonbasic hosers that you're limiting yourself from using (and making yourself more vulnerable) by this many splashes.  

Are you suggesting that I should pack nonbasics hosers?
I have packed the cards in the SB I deemed necessary to deal with combo and control. What cards would I pack vs nonbasics? Blood Moon? Back to Basics? Price of Progress?

Price of Progress is cute, but what would I take from the deck for it? Or how about back to basics and blood moon, both of which can hurt me as well? I see no reasoning in making the deck less good vs combo and control to pack cards that are not going to give me an edge vs control or nonbasic land filled decks because they end up screwing myself as well.

Boy, you must have loved FF6 to pick up Celles, or should I say Maria(?) as an avatar:P\n\n

[SummenSaugen]

I'm glad someone recognized her

Yeah, I was talking about the first list.  Although I do like the idea of making the manabase able to support hosers, more likely B2B as it wouldn't hurt you nearly as much as other decks.

Blood Moon is really only decent if you're playing two color.

Most nonbasic hosers will hurt control (Urphid and monoU not so much, but those are few and far between in comparison to hulk and keeper) and as for combo, you have a pretty solid game against them assuming they don't draw 'the hand'.  Four meddling mages in the maindeck and four true believers available from the board is a lot of combo answers.  Seal of Cleansing is also some good.

I should probably post my proposed list, but I'm lazy and it's all the way on the other side of the room.  I'll get to it sometime soon.  

[Bastian]

Quote I should probably post my proposed list, but I'm lazy and it's all the way on the other side of the room.  I'll get to it sometime soon.  

Please propose a list of your own with the changes you suggest. I'm even lazier and not on the mood to go back to that decklist as I'm over something else right now:P

Oh, I loved FF6 by the way. Celes was quite a character;)

[Ferrismonk]

So far I love the deck!  I really do think it is quite good.  The problem I have with the deck, however, is that I don't have a whole lot of experience with Meddling Mage.  Could someone explain what the best cards are to name vs. the most common decks?  Sligh, Hulk, Tendrils, Mud, Mask, RectorTrix, and Dragon?

Also, is the city better than another fetch-land?  Shuffling effects are nice, and the repeated pain from the city is annoying.  I realize that our land count is already pushing the limit and another fetch might make it worse, but you always get what you need.

There is also a severe lack of moxes/lotus.  Do you think the four Null Rods are enough to remove the mox/lotus?  I would think that the extra speed would be nice.

-Travis-\n\n

[MuzzonoAmi]

You're right about the Windfall, but I still think Spindrift Drake is superior to Soltari Monk. Here's my revised decklist:

4 Jackal Pup
4 Savannah Lions
4 Spindrift Drake
4 Soltari Priest
4 Meddling Mage

2 Seal of Cleansing
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt

4 Null Rod

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Brainstorm

2 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Tundra
4 Plateau
3 Plains

SB:
1 Seal of Cleansing
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 True Believer
4 Energy Flux
3 Morningtide

By removing your Soltari Monks the Drake's drawback is significantly reduced because they don't hinder your ability to drop a threat turn 2.

[Bastian]

Ferrismonk:

Here's what to name with the mage:

TNT
Survival of the Fittest
Goblin Welder
Genesis
Fat Creatures

VENGEUR MASQUÉ
Illusionary Mask
Survival of the Fittest
Volrath's Shapeshifter

MASK UB
Illusionary Mask
Necropotence
Yawgmoth's Will
Phyrexian Negator
Hyppies

URphid
Fire/Ice
Morphling
Blood Moon
Ophidian
Counters

ANKH SLIGH
Cursed Scroll
Ankh of Mishra
Creatures
Burn

SUICIDE
Hypnotic Specter
Nantuko Shade
Phyrexian negator
Disruption (land/hand kill)
Masticore/Powder Keg (AFTER SB)

TRIX (RECTOR)
Academy Rector
Donate
Rushing River
Necropotence
Yawgmoth's Bargain

TENDRILS
Academy Rector
Tendrils of Agony
rest is same as above

DRAGON
Intuition/Buried Alive
Cunning Wish

I guess you should aim first for what buries Worldgorger Dragon in this match and afterwards go after anything that can get the kill card or the kill card itself.

HULK
Intuition
Accumulated Knowledge
Cunning Wish
Psychatog

KEEPER
Cunning Wish
Balance
Future Sight
Yawgmoth's Will
Kill card

If i wanted a 5-color land instead of a fetch I'd use Undiscovered Paradise, since the deck runs on with very little mana in play. But I still think the fetchlands are better since they thin the deck, shuffle it and they give you the mana you need as well. You might try Undiscovered Paradise instead of a fetchie if you think it'll help you smooth the mana base.

The deck doesn't need moxes or lotus. Lotus is a one shot and you're not playing any 3cc spells maindeck, just after using the SB. Moxes are slow if you consider this is a 3-color deck which can't afford mana screw. It uses very cheap spells so it won't need the artifact mana accelaration.

Null Rods are enough to stop moxes and lotus. I could pack shamans instead of pups, but as I said above, pups are better: they are better attackers than the monkeys are and rods stop kegs and masticore as well.

MuzzonoAmi:If you want to test the drake... go ahead! Stop by again when you start losing games with it.\n\n

[Vegeta2711]

Like Monk is good to begin with.  

[Bastian]

Well, it isn't. I actually could pack any ammount of 2cc creatures in there but it started as the monk because it's nearly unblockable. It's not like if I'm finding any other shadow creatures... at least not expecting to.

And you got to agree that spindrift drake is a pretty bad choice.

[brianb]

Could an aggressive deck with all those colors run a tog or two?.  It seems at least ok, even without having to tweak everything to completely abuse it.

[Black Explosion]

4 seals of clensing, 4 null rod, and 4 meddling mage?

I guess you're one of those that believe the only lubes one should are blood and tears.