URphid

[Jamino]

Hey guys,
Well I have not been seeing to much talk on URphid as now most people just let it down without much thought. Sure, it may not be able to make turn 1 kills but I think the deck in itslef has ALOT of potential.
First off, alot of aloder threads and even a few newer ones insist that URphid will eventually get overrun by threats. However that the deck should focus a little more on Land Destruction to prevernt those threats from coming, or making them come out a few turns to late.
While sorting through my commons box I stumbled on a card that caught my eye. Dwarevn Miner. Its a chump blocker as well as a beating machine. Ontop of that it can pop lands for a lil mana. That plus shamans and wastes and you got a super land destrucion engin going.
For todays metagame, I think that URphid would be the perfect deck. The sideboard will shut down 1/2 decks and the decks that arnt affect by the side should cause you to much worry...
Well enough talk, heres the list im working with:

Mana - 25
4x Waste Land
1x Strip Mine
5x Moxes
1x Sol Ring
1x Black Lotus
4x Polluted Delta
4x Volcanic Island
1x Library of Alexandria
4x Islands

Blue - 23
4x Force of Will
4x Mana Drain
4x Mana Leak
4x Ophidian
3x Brainstorm
1x Morphling
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Capsize

Red - 5
3x Gorilla Shaman
2x Dwarven Miner

Artifact / Other - 7
1x Masticore
2x Powder Keg
3x Fire/Ice

Sideboard:
4x Red Elemental Blast
4x Energy Flux
4x Flametongue Kavu
3x Blood Moon

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
I would also like to know what other people think of URPhid. While playing it as well as playing against it. Hopefully ill be able to put up a primer soon.  
          Jamino\n\n

[Fever]

Well, those Miners are going to be dead against a lot of decks. Sure, they are good in theory against most of the field, but in practice they are just too slow to make a difference versus Tog, Trix, Tendrils and MUD. I believe thier place is in the sb, this would free up some room maindeck for 2 more F/I or Impulse.\n\n

[Jamino]

Are they really to slow though?
With all the acceleration from the moxen and not much to cast with it all I find I get him out turn 1 and start using him turn 2 which is pretty fast imho. Howeverthe thing with hin is that hes NEVER a dead draw. He can always just be cast for a blocker or kill lands slowly but surely if there are alot on the table.
Do you really think these should go in side? The way I see it is that almost every matchup with a "tier 1-2" deck you could use these. I find that the sideboard is already to tight and that these would fit in perfect MD. However I will give this some more testing.
About impulse. The thing with impulse is that I would never just play 2. Its a thing that i find like Brainstorm. 4 or none.
Its just to based on luck after. What are your thought on it?
Thanks for the feed back,
     Jamino

[suicide_slushy]

What does Miner do that Bloodmoon doesn't?

I have a few nitpicks with your deck, first being the lack of Future Sight.  I tested 1 for the longest time, and I now play 2.  You generally win the game when sight hits, it sometimes generates 3-4 cards a turn which is too much for any deck to handle.  I suggest running a pair of these.

Next is the absence of Control Magic, I also play 2 of these in the maindeck, they are great vs MasK variants, TnT, Stax/MUD, Sui, Tog, EBA, Madness, Rector Combo, and random aggro, Plus they are pitchable to Mis-d or Fow.

Why do you run Brainstorm with only 5 shuffling effects?  I would much rather run a full set of Fire/Ice, as killing Welders is some good.

I don't think Shaman is needed in Urphid, Keg fills his spot and is also really good vs aggro, I'd run more kegs before running Shaman.



I was going to sum all this up, but I find it easier to just post my list.

//NAME: UrPhid
        
        7 Island
        2 Flooded Strand
        2 Shivan Reef
        4 Volcanic Island
        3 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Library of Alexandria
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        4 Fire/Ice
        4 Ophidian
        1 Fact or Fiction
        1 Merchant Scroll
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        1 Masticore
        2 Morphling
        1 Misdirection
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
        3 Mana Leak
        2 Powder Keg
        2 Future Sight
        2 Control Magic
SB:  2 Flametongue Kavu
SB:  1 Control Magic
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  4 Energy Flux
SB:  4 Blood Moon
-

[Jamino]

@Sui

I see where you are getting at with Future sight, but its just to slow. I consider it a win more card. I mean, when it hits its over right? So why not just play more draw in there or even more morphlings for that matter? If you are able to let it resolve and protect it for the few turns its in play, you jus have to get a morpling and attack...
So why not just play morphling directly?
Also, control magic main, its funny that you should mention it as its what I have been doing for quite some time now, however it just doesnt seem to pull its weigth for me anymore... Its dead against many decks, and I just dont have room. I mean the decks its good against should already be a great matchup after side.
Sure you can pitch em to FoW but, is it really worth the MD slotage?
As for what miner does that bloodmoon doesnt its simple. One can chump block(which is huuuuge in todays meta) and DESTROY lands denying him of lands, while the other just turns em into mountains untill he finds an answer to it.
Also, you can play a Miner 1 turn earlier then you could a Moon. Meaning when moon hits play, you could kill a land.
But they both have there advantages and disadvantages, which is why I play both, however if your testing has proven other wise great! I will let you know soon what I think and will test with the Future sights a lil more.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote He can always just be cast for a blocker or kill lands slowly

If you see a decent amount of combo, this is just too slow for the maindeck.  Even if he's operational turn 2 or 3, its mana you should have used elsewhere to prevent them from going off.  Obviously, combo doesn't care about blockers, but even aggro won't be slowed for more than a turn.  If you play predominantly control matchups, he's going to shine.  Otherwise, he's sub-optimal.  Either way, out of the SB bloodmoon does most of what miner does, but with less mana investment.

Quote Future sight, but its just to slow. I consider it a win more card. I mean, when it hits its over right? So why not just play more draw in there or even more morphlings for that matter? If you are able to let it resolve and protect it for the few turns its in play, you jus have to get a morpling and attack

Nothing could be further from the truth.  Future Sight is one of the biggest come from behind cards in magic...if you can get it to resolve.  Urphid can easily cast this turn 3 off mana drain, earlier with sapphire or lotus.  That's not blazingly fast, but if you can get it to stick with FoW or MisD backup then its pretty much game over.

The strategy of drop morphling and hold on for the win is extremely outdated.  He doesn't even compare with Future Sight.



I've never tested masticore, but I ran a creature base of:

1x morphling (my two future sights were win conditions 2-3)
4x ophidian
2x gorilla shaman

and I was never lacking for win conditions.

[suicide_slushy]

The thing is when you cast Phling your not always ready to win, meaning you can't protect him.  Fututre Sight makes sure that when you do lay a Phling he goes all the way.

[Jamino]

Well im going to test this future sight alot more since all of you seem to be ravnig about it.
However you all brought me to reason. I think you guys might be right bout Miner dude. What could he do that Moon cant.
The point I brought up befor where smacked down by the I think better point from Inquisator and Sui. Ill test with the 2 Blood Moon MD and see what results it will give me.

[Pimpz0r]

What is your meta like?

Running 2x Blood Moon MD is a really strong move, and I think you may want to consider how many blue sources you have that won't be affected by it.  You have a shitton of non-basic land, and only 4x basic Island.  This could lead to problems, especially if you decide to start running the blue mana hungry 2x Future Sight.

[Jamino]

@Pimzorz
I tested with westerdale and other TMD members yesterday and decided that i would not play future sight and keep the miners in. However the reason I don tplay MD blood Moon is that its dead against most TNt, Stax, Mono U, Sligh, Sui (cept for factories) and others which I cant think of off the top of my head.
The meta I play in has a little of everything but is very much powered. Out of about  people id say 40-45 are powered.
There should be alot of hulk as well as stax (good and bad versions). But the unpowered people almost all play aggro. Reason for my zero MD blood moons.
Future sight is just to slow imho.
Keep the feedback coming,
              Jamino\n\n

[jpmeyer]

Exactly how much of URphid's game revolves around "Blood Moon or no?"  I ask this mostly because unless a large portion of its wins are because of this, it would seem that adding white for Goblin Trenches as well as the ability to run Cunning Wish (since it would now be flexible enough due to the extra colors) would be another strong avenue the deck can pursue.

[Jamino]

JP, Blood Moon is 1 of the bigggest reason to play URphid and not splash another colour. The abilty for this one card to win games all by itslef is just to good.

[wuaffiliate]

did you see the part in jaypee's post about trenches? i would seriously test that, trenches are rather good in phid. and it gives you access to more utility you need.

[suicide_slushy]

I really don't think a white splash is worth it.  Not only does it keep you from effectavely running Bloodmoon, but it also makes you more succeptable to nonbasic hate and color screw.  I really don't think Phid needs a 3rd color to handle the meta-game.

[wuaffiliate]

moon does not seal as many games as it once could. i dont think thats a good enough reason not to try a splash. there have been several multi coloured phid decks arround many are very good at improving the difficult matches.

[jpmeyer]

Hmm.  Then I guess to rephrase my question, is URphid more of a Phid deck or a Blood Moon deck.

[Os-Vegeta]

I would definitely say that UR Phid is more of a Blood Moon deck.  Really, it will have to rely on Blood Moon to cut off opposing manasources enough to win.  I really believe that Phid is just too slow anymore to be any good.  Multi-color Phid decks are basically Keeperish decks with Phids, some even being Keeper with Phids.

Matt TG and I actually tested a couple Phid builds, and we really found that Phid is just too slow in this environment.  Even with Fire/Ice for a tempo boost (tap a land early) or tapping an opposing threat, it's just not good enough.    

On average, Phid will have to take three turns to really be good.  One is the turn it came into play, two is the following turn (assuming it connects) where it replaces itself, and the third turn where it actually starts giving you card advantage (assuming it connects).  Three turns is just too long in this current environment.

[Jamino]

People who say that a Phid is to slow or doesnt draw enough anymore have not tested very much i should think. I have been playign this deck on and off for 2 years and 1 thing i always noticed is that I always drew and just about always had a nice chunky hand. Fire/Ice will tap blockers or opposing lands and on top of that it cycles. Thining your deck as well as giving you another card to two (phids) and/or slwing them down a turn which in this environment is devasting. Tendrils wont really be as good if it kills 5/6th turn instead of 1-2. Fire ice will also alow you to get a few counters up if you need.
I have tested again and again and have come to make some changes to this deck. First off I will use part of fevers idea on impulses. They proved to be great in testing and as I do not play many shuffling effects (5) I have decided to cut the Brainstorms and add 2 Fire/Ice and 2 Impulses. Both of which have been great so far.
Splashing white or another colour will just turn this into some wanabe version of a bad keeper or some other crap. Blood Moon makes a greater difference then you could ever hope for and 1 Phling and 1 Core have been great for kill conditions(thought I usually end up giving Dwarf, monkey and snake beatz). I seriously think (im not pointing at anyone) that any of you who think URphid does not draw enough have a go at the deck to see what its really about instead of just following some comments or wtvr from someone whos never really played the deck.

Anyways, I have updated my list,
Keep the feed back coming,
    Jamino

[Grand Inquisitor]

Urphid is still pretty good.  Say what you want about how slow it is, I placed well at Gencon with it, it won CrazyCon during the GAT era, and it consistently T8's at major tournies in the NE.

I would say that Urphid is a mana denial control deck that runs bloodmoon.  In some matchups the 5 strips and 2 shamans are just as important.  However, bloodmoon is still a great hoser against Hulk (although it is difficult to resolve), Dragon, Keeper, Agony, and Mask (where its your only real answer to a resolved SoF.

Bloodmoon isn't great against workshop decks, but Urphid is.  Fire/Ice, control magic, mana drain, gorilla shaman, rack or ruin, shattering pulse, are all pretty significant.

I'll agree ophidian is slow right now, but its still the best at what is does: a cheap permanent source of card advantage.  In a faster environment his marginal utility goes down.  However, if the game is at a standstill, he'll swing the momentum as well as anything besides future sight.

As far as your choices, Jamino, I guess its just an issue of metagame and playstyle.  I love Future Sight, and I know it biases my decision to run this type of build.

Regarding the white splash, you'll end up just wanting to run Keeper, and then probably wanting to run either Hulk or Shining.

[Os-Vegeta]

Fire/Ice and the White Splash:  You're getting the right idea with Fire/Ice, and it will be the glue of a U/R or U/R/W build.  When I gave a URW build a test run, actually playing against it with Fish (Nimrod was playing as the URW Phid), we found that Fire/Ice is the glue of the deck.  You need Fire/Ice to get some kind of tempo boost, BUT this can be quite trying at times due to the fact that Fire/Ice will not be very effective against quite a few decks, namely control, and its range of damage against Workshop decks is a bit limited to mainly Welder.  

Really, what Grand Inquisitor is saying about the white splash is true - if you're splashing white, you're going to want black for Duress too, bringing you back to simply being a Keeper with Phids.  This is bad right now.  Fire/Ice nearly loses all effectiveness and becomes just a weapon vs. Fish, Sligh, and Welders if you go 4-color.  This is mainly due to the fact that you're wanting to have an early Duress while having some form of counter backup in hand if possible.  Also, if you're going with 4-color Phid, what's keeping you from just playing Keeper, as 4-color Phid is not any better than Keeper, and, in my opinion, Keeper would be a better choice over 4-color Phid, since Blood Moon can't be run anyway.

Really, if you want to run Phids, UR may be the best way to go, but even then I'm not an advocate for it due to the fact that you're practically relying solely on Phid for your card advantage.\n\n

[Triple_S]

In testing URPhid for GenCon we figured that a deck that has its draw engine shutdown by Wall of Roots probably wouldn't get very far.  True that is an overgeneralization, and I haven't done a lot of testing against long.dec or WMud, but I just don't see how URPhid really competes against a rich metagame.

[Grand Inquisitor]

@triple_s, i am familiar with the amount of testing you guys did to prep for gencon.  i'm surprised you made the wall of roots argument to illustrate the results.

Urphid remains competitive because of its ability to compete with top level control and combo decks.  One of the reasons why it can do this is bloodmoon, the other is ophidian.  While Urphid has to adapt its strategy when facing aggro decks, ophidian is a bomb against control, and seals the deal if you can stabilize against combo.  The last point is important since combo has a much stronger mid-game that it used to.

Even against sligh and stax, ophidian is an effective card drawer, and against other aggro, control magic, powder kegs, and fire/ice have to pick up what slips through the counterwall.

Relying on the attack phase is not great for a control deck, but there are other routes Urphid can take.  Since Future Sight doubles as both a win condition and a secondary draw engine, the deck is relatively robust.  The deck has plenty of weaknesses, but its certainly competitive against the top decks.\n\n

[wuaffiliate]

phid players should really look into a landstill type evolution of phid. landstill and phid run on nearly the same premise, but landstill relies more on TAMPO, board control, spell denial, and mana denial which imho is more important than just half assed TAMPO, spell denial and mana denial in this faster and spell driven metagame.

its also a huge reason MUD and Stax are so damn good, they do eveything, TAMPO, spell/mana/board denial.

[Triple_S]

Going into the testing some of us were really hoping that URPhid or URwPhid would perform better but it really just couldn't keep up with what seemed to be the best decks in the format.  True Blood Moon is a 'just win' type card against some decks (I ran it main in my R/G TnT deck on Friday at GenCon) the draw engine just couldn't keep up with the card drawing in Hulk or the threat density V Masque presented.  Masque has 8 must counter threats (4 SoF, 4 Masks) and has Duress/FoW backup for them.  URPhid could be and is perfectly viable in a lot of locales, I just wouldn't feel comfortable running it myelf.

[Matt The Great]

Three mana sorceries with two turn's delay AND the ability to be blocked are not good draw engines. Blood Moon is awful strong, though.\n\n

[Sauron]

The more I see in discussion on this deck, the more it seems like it should just play 4x Blood Moon main, since in an idealised meta that seems to be the only thing going for this deck in everyones opinion. Then it just becomes a slow combo deck. Drop Moon T2/3 with FoW backup and eventually grind out a win.

[suicide_slushy]

Moon is not the only thing the deck has going for it.  The deck has the ablity to out counter anything around.  Phid may be a little slow but he usually comes online turn 3 as you run 7 solomoven, casting him turn 1 is not that uncommon.  Once he resolves it's generally game.  Phid has the tools to handle any deck in the current metagame.

Aggro- Kegs, Fire/Ice, Control Magic, Flametongue Kavu, Masticore.

Hulk- 13 "counters" maindeck and 4 in the sb, Control Magic, Bloodmoon, Future Sight, not to mention the generic things like Wastelands and Library, even Keg can be good vs Hulk.

Workshop- Counters, Fire/Ice for welders, Control Magic, Energy Flux.

Combo- Counters, kegs for artifact mana, Bloodmoon.

Not to mention the Ability against all of these decks to get a fast Phid and just win, or resolve a Future sight and just win.

In short I think Phid deserves more respect than it gets, It can be tuned to compete anywhere.

[Matt The Great]

Having lots of counters is not the way to win the control matchup. Phid should never win the Hulk matchup outside of god draws (which any deck can have, and honestly Hulk will have these more often than Phid) because Phid is such a horrible draw engine, compared with DA and even AK (they get you the cards RIGHT NOW, can't be blocked, and are either instant-speed or 'uncounterable'. All this, AND their 2U draw spell - Intuition - can be cast EOT).\n\n

[waSP]

Well, it still gets outcountered by landstill.  Wu is right, that deck is much better than this one.  I'd post about it, but I've only been on the other end of testing, and not enough of that to talk with authority.

I think 'phid's time as one of the major decks has passed and now its something like sligh.  It'll take games on its own strengths, but cannot properly prepare for a wide metagame (prove me wrong   )

[wuaffiliate]

i forgot you were testing landstill too