Stacker 3+ Updates

[Vegeta2711]

To start with my post Mirrodin Stacker 3 list.

//NAME: Stacker 3 - Vise City
// Mana
        9 Mountain
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        2 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Tolarian Academy
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
// Shotgun and Co.
        4 Goblin Charbelcher
        4 Shrapnel Blast
// The Vise Age
        1 Black Vise
// Lockies
        4 Chalice of the Void
        4 Sphere of Resistance
        4 Pyrostatic Pillar
// Critters
        2 Myr Enforcer
        4 Su-Chi
        4 Juggernaut
        4 Goblin Welder

Additions to the deck
+4 Chalice
+4 Shrapnel Blast
+4 Goblin Charbelcher
+2 Myr Enforcer

Reasoning behind the additions
Chalice of the Void: This was an obvious addition, it's insane in Workshop decks as yet another reliable combo stopper, but also it allows me to really give a beating to other aggro decks (Fish, Sligh and Sui being the main victims). Against Control is doesn't seem to work as well as hoped, but it still is an effective at either fragging artifact mana or limiting Brainstorm and tutor effects set at 0 or 1 (And 3 against Tog of course).

Shrapnel Blast: I always wanted a strong finisher spell for the deck and this works very well as that. A good 5 damage shot to the face, makes combat trades favorable and can nullify Artifact Mutation, Welder tricks and at least decrease the usefulness of opposing artifact hosers. Finally it combos well with the other addition of Goblin Charbelcher as an additional direct damage spell.

Goblin Charbelcher: Ah... Cursed Scroll on crack, that's basically my thoughts on this card. After exhausting your resources and having a soft damage lock on the table sometimes your critters and TD abilites won't be enough to take the game home. Thanks to this artifact you now have an inexhaustive source of damage that's not only as strong as your artifact creatures, but is cheap enough to immediately be used in the mid-game.

For those who might say the cost to damage ratio isn't worth it or that it's too inconsistent to be useful, I've collected some data for you to stare at for a while.

I tracked the data (# of activations and damage ratio) on Goblin Charbelcher taken from goldfish and real games until I hit some sort of marker. For this set of data I stopped at 75 uses and here's my results.

17 Land with 9 Mountains.
Goblin Charbelcher activated 75 Times
Amnt. of dmg.      Number of hits.
0:           13
1:           4
2:          9
3:          4
4:           21
5:           2
6:           8
7:           1
8:           1
9:           3
10:          6
10+:           3

What it breaks down to statistically
17.3 %  =    0 Damage
5.3%     =    1 Damage
12%     =    2 Damage
5.3%     =    3 Damage
28%     =    4 Damage
2.6%     =    5 Damage
10.6%     =    6 Damage
1.3%     =    7 Damage
1.3%     =    8 Damage
4%     =    9 Damage
8%     =    10 Damage
4%    =    10+ Damage

Meaningful Breakdown of the data
Chances of doing 5 or more points of damage
31.8%
Chances of doing 4 damage
28%
Chances of doing 1-3 Damage
22.6%
Chances of doing 0 Damage
17.3

About 3/5th’s of the time you’ll deal 4 or more damage every time you activate it.
About 1/5th of the time you’ll deal 1-3 damage.
About 1/5th of the time you’ll deal 0 damage.

Even taking all of this into account that means about 80% of the time you’ll deal some amount of damage and about 60% it’ll be 4 or more. That’s pretty damn good for a reusable artifact and that includes the fact that only half of the mana base is Mountains. Oh and just for those who were curious, my highest damage shot was 18.

Finally other than being a good finisher and allowing you to break stalemated games it sometimes even allows you to go and win those unwinnable games with a lucky burst shot off it. (A last second shot of 10 or so damage should win you the game if you've been doing your job.)

Right now this thing has been pretty impressive and the only question left for me right now is whether to only run only 3 or keep it at 4.

Thanks goes out to Jamo for bugging me to try the card out. It was something I hadn't had time to test before, but now that I've finally gotten around to it. I've been pleasantly surprised at the results of the card.

Myr Enforcer: He comes down on turn 3/4 normally, is as strong as Su-Chi with no drawbacks and with a artifact heavy hand can come down on turn 2/3 for dirt cheap.

Cards dropped
Ankh of Mishra
Tangle Wire
Gorilla Shaman
Triskelion

Reasoning behind the drops
Ankh of Mishra: With decks becoming faster and faster this card became weaker with time. The problem with the card stems from the fact that it now MUST be dropped on turn 1 to have a significant effect on the opponent. This is too big of a commitment and with the power level of the new cards this was dropped immediately.

Shrap. Blast takes the place of Ankh of Mishra.

Tangle Wire: Chalice was simply better in every way and form. Against combo it was more effective and against aggro it's hosing ability was unequaled. The only time I missed Wire was against control decks, where the temporary slow down was sometimes a death knell for decks trying to make the most out of each turn. Though I never really liked the card I always considered the power it had in all my artifact builds, it's simply been outclassed by Chalice in a tight deck.

Chalice of the Void takes the place of Tangle Wire.

Gorilla Shaman: Chalice also reduced the overall need for such a card, so I decided I could live without these buggers. I needed the room for the new super scroll anyways.

Triskelion: Myr Enforcer replaced him because with the mana base reduction it was really hard to support the guy and with Chalice reducing my weakness to Aggro I felt he was no longer necessary MD.

Cards that just didn't work out
Lightning Greaves: I really liked these things giving my creatures haste sped up my kill and made control really think about the best way to handle my creatures. Untargetable and Hasted Welders were also very useful for the artifact match-ups.

Sadly the fact that they were dead draws in multiples, had to be dropped 1st or 2nd turn to be effective and the fact that the Equip isn't instant speed was one too many drawbacks and was enough for me to cut them from the deck. In a heavier creature build I believe these would be great, but right now they just aren't useful enough.

Every other Equip card under the sun: I think I tried nearly all of them just for fun for 3-5 games and they all were pretty sub par or just flat out shit. Mask of Memory was the only decent one at all, but right now are only on my ‘Other cards to try’ list.

Mindslayer: How the hell did I ever get tricked into trying this crap?

Timesifter: A cute card, backfires too often to be really useful though.

Cards that are still on the drawing board
Thought Prison and Mindstorm Crown: I’ve only had a few games with either in the deck and individually they seem useful, I’m not sure as a whole how well they work with this new deck configuration. They both feel pretty strong though, expect these to be fully tested out at a later date.

The sideboard is also heavily up in the air right now and will be until I see how the meta pans out. I would suggest some amount of REB, Fire/Ice and possibly Blood Moon/Rack and Ruin right now as those are the old standbys.

That about sums it up as I haven't gotten in a large amount of playtest matches in with the Mirrodin changes, so I can't comment on how match-up's will change.\n\n

[wuaffiliate]

I would like to report some very good results with charbelcher, im running it in MUD, 3 over karn and 1 over a keg. This is a better(faster) kill condition that karn i so far in testing.

In testing in about 30 games, belcher hit for 0 about 5 times, the rest of them (about 25 uses) it delt 2-10 cards worth of damage. many instances it delt upwards of 14-20 dmg.

I feel it can speed up the kill in workshop decks by quite a margin.

I like the changes to stacker3 , keep it up.

[Vegeta2711]

That's good to hear my results aren't uncommon. I also agree this has the potential for speedier kills and is overall just a great kill mechanism.

Thanks for the input Wu.

[Mith]

The Charbelcher is ALMOST as amazing as Chalice of the Void. I've been messing around with this deck since the spoiler came out, and I hit for 6-12 with Charbelcher most of the time...I've killed quite a few opponents with just one shot.

So far, I am VERY please with this build...it's fast, and it just shuts down so many decks. I've had problems on a couple of ocassions with Sligh...mostly after they sideboard in the Rack and Ruins. At this point, I'm just working on the SB to try and fine tune it. I just hope they don't go about restricting any of this...


Oh, and on a quick note...as much as I like running two Myr Enforcer, I think the spot MIGHT be better filled with two Karn, or perhaps ever two Triskellion. I'll chime back in after more testing \n\n

[Vegeta2711]

Love Trike, but I just dislike the 6 mana cost and finally found a decent replacement. Karn's ability I just find isn't really worthwhile for the speed in which you can get him out. (I.E. After they already got a boost from the moxen and such)

But I generally consider those 2 slots open as long as a critter of semi beefy size replaces them.  

[Mith]

I've been trying to work Metalworkers into the deck. They speed up the Chalices, and they REALLY speed up the Charbelchers. At the moment, they only real spots are the Shrapnel Blast or the Pyrostactic Pillar...as much as I don't want to drop either, everything else just too good to even consider. Since the Blasts are a great finisher as well as being direct damage...for now I'm dropping the Pillars.

[Vegeta2711]

I tried Metalworkers in the deck intially and didn't like them much. They do provide a large boost under the proper circumstances, but they are overly vunerable and during the TD phase of the game (Anything past turn 4) are simply dead draws. Also cutting them would mean lessening how many threats I can run, for example I wouldn't cut Pillar since it's a solid combo hoser and just another effective damage source for the deck.

I really think Metalworker only belongs in the other artifact decks like WelderMUD and Mono Brown.

[Tristal]

If Sligh (especially Goblin) is prevalent in your area, I don't suggest cutting Karns so easily.  Testing shows Karn (and Sphere) are pretty much the only two cards I fear in the matchup when playing Sligh.

[Vegeta2711]

Chalice. Owns. Sligh.

Most Sligh I come up against just die if I name it at one. Even if I don't, as you said I have Sphere as well.

[Mith]

I'm really loving this deck  However, sligh with four rack and ruin in the board doesn't get "owned" that easily. I yanked the shrapnel blast for the metalworkers...and I haven't regretted it. The mana boost is amazing, and I can activate Charbelcher so much easier with the Workers pumping out fast mana.

[Vegeta2711]

You should still beat the shit out of Sligh with or without Rack and Ruin simply because it costs 3 mana and by that time you should have a signficant board position anyways. If you people really fall in the match that much, run Bottle Gnomes SB.  

I still fail to get positive data from Metalworker in many of the games I play with them. Bleh. Whatever. I guess this is one of the many other small differences there will be in the future.\n\n

[Razor]

How do these decks deal with disruption like Aura of Silence and Null Rod?

Is Myr Enforcer really superior to Covetous Dragon?

[Tindemans]

okey, first of all, nobody plays Aura of Silence. however, if anybody does, it doesn't immediatly stops you. You've got a lot of mana sources.The opp then also has to get rid of stuff already in play. also, opponents has to get it into play under maybe spheres and chalices.

now about Null Rod, what does it exactly stop? it stops fast artifact mana yes, which is only really needed tunrs one and two. after that it's never bad, but not a need. and along with that, a deck playing Rods usually gives away a lot of speed, which you can abuse to fastly drop some expensive artifacts.

[Dante]

Quote (Razor @ Oct. 01 2003,16:02)How do these decks deal with disruption like Aura of Silence and Null Rod?

Is Myr Enforcer really superior to Covetous Dragon?

seems that without being able to use workshop mana and lack of metalworkers, the dragon is coming out really late...

Dante

[Vegeta2711]

Heh, looks like you two guys beat me to it.

Aura sucks if it's dropped turn 1 off a lotus and I'm on the draw. That's about the only time it's crippling.

Null Rod does jack shit after the first 2 turns since nearly all my threats can be cast off Workshop or Workshop + Land and only Charbletcher is turned semi useless. Or even assuming my Workshop gets wasted and Rod is out, barring a Sphere on the table about half my useful cards still only cost 2.

As Dante stated, unless you have a Lotus your going to have a heck of a time casting Dragon.

[jpmeyer]

Quote (Razor @ Oct. 01 2003,17:02)How do these decks deal with disruption like Aura of Silence and Null Rod?

Is Myr Enforcer really superior to Covetous Dragon?

And is Myr Enforcer better than Complex Automaton?

[MoreFling]

Quote (jpmeyer @ Oct. 02 2003,02:45)

Quote (Razor @ Oct. 01 2003,17:02)How do these decks deal with disruption like Aura of Silence and Null Rod?

Is Myr Enforcer really superior to Covetous Dragon?

And is Myr Enforcer better than Complex Automaton?

I hope that is a joke jp, since that's terrible.

[Tindemans]

well I wouldn't say it's terrible. I even had to think about it before rejecting it. however it's the exactly the opposite of Myr Enforcer.
Enforcer is better with more artifacts (sort of permanents) in play,
Complex Automaton is worse with more permanents in play. however since the deck plays blasts and wastelands, which usually go to the graveyard directly, and blast is able to get one permanent extra in the graveyard, it can take some time before you reach the 7 perms. especially if opponent disrupts.
you can also weld it away if you play it.
still I'd reject it, too much of a risk.

[jpmeyer]

I actually ran Complex Automaton back in Stacker 2 (Benedict Klauser suggested it) when I wanted another 4 drop.  It was actually pretty good since the drawback rarely came into play since if the game had gotten to the point where I had that many permanents the game had probably been going on long enough so that the control player had stabilized and it didn't matter what creature I drew.

The problem that I have with Myr Enforcer is that it seems like it costs 1 mana too much.  You're not getting a 4/4 for 4, you're getting a 4/4 for 5.\n\n

[Vegeta2711]

<3 Myr Enforcer as tubbies 9 and 10. Complex Auto really doesn't work here than say the 1.5 builds or older Stackers. Mostly this is because almost your whole deck is permenants and not one shot burn, draw or anything.

Oh hey I did some testing for S3.1 while inbetween CvS2 and DDR.

Aggro
Sligh: Drop Chalice for 1 within the first 2 turns and that's game. Drop Sphere on the first turn that's game. Drop Charbelcher and 1-2 Tubbies and that's game. Basically you aren't going to lose to Goblin Sligh ever as long as you don't keep bad hands or hands that don't generally do that much early on. (You don't have time to set up strings or expensive stuff)

Worst case scenario, mull till you get.
Land + Mox/Workshop + Chalice/Sphere

Suicide: Drop Chalice at 2 and it shuts down 1/2 of the deck. Charbelcher once in play is practically a auto win since it can be used to smash any critters the play into dust. Otherwise just go with old fashioned, drop tubbies, drop pillar/other stuff and win. The only way you should lose is if they're going first and have a Land, Ritual,  Duress + Hymn hand. And even in that case if a Workshop or Land and a Mox survives you probably can still come back.

Madness: Stupid good aggro deck... yeah your main plan here is to drop Sphere first turn and win or die like a little bitch. Chalice can help slow them down a bit set at 0 to stop the moxes and LED's. Waste the Bazaar's at any chance you can, unless they seem really mana light and can abuse the maybe one turn opening. They're critters can match yours pound for pound and they have burn too. If possible try to force favorable trades with Shrap. Blast so your not just trading 1 for 1. Charbelcher (WHEN IT WORKS, @*$($( h8 appr sometimes) usually works well in being able to gun down the critters they run.

Don't expect to go better than 50/50 against a good Madness player. Chalice doesn't really solve any problems here and this would be one of the few match-up's where having Wire would work well (for those of you with older builds or modded versions).

Mask: I haven't seen these around much, but for the straight black beatdown version your plans are really simple. Drop Chalice @ 2, resolve Welder (preferably multiple) and the final general idea is drop Charbelcher in a pinch. Accept the fact that you have no way to stop Dread's short of a very big Charbelcher blast or some critter + Shrap Blast weird shit play. At worst failing all those options, throw everything you've got at the guy and then when he's not looking blow his head off with Shrap Blast. Sometimes the desperation play works.

Control: My results haven't been completed yet because these games seem to go on for god forasken amounts of time sometimes. Esp. vs. Neo-Keeper...

Combo: Joy! Here's your basic plan vs. the two big combo decks.

Long.dec:
Step 1a. Win the coin flip
If you lose the coin flip, move to step 1b.

Step 1b. Pray he doesn't kill you first turn and possibly make any bribery/threats now.

Step 2a. Check opening 7 cards for Chalice/Sphere/Pillar.
If you have Chalice and the rest of your hand isn't toal ass, keep, and move to step 3.
If you have Sphere or Pillar and sufficent mana to play them first turn, keep, and move to step 3.
If you have neither of the above options skip to Step 2b.

Step 2b. Mull until you have one of the above options or something similar when down to 3-4 cards.

Step 3. Drop Chalice/Sphere/Pillar.

Step 4. Win game with the exceedingly disproportinate amount of time you've just gained.

Neo-Long: Repeat the process for Long.dec except add following addendum to step 3. Pray he doesn't have the FoW.

In conclusion the most important part of all these games is winning the coin flip/die roll. Against combo that's your main way to tell who's going to win against the post Mirrodin build.\n\n

[rozetta]

Have you guys tested Sculpting Steel? I tried it out today in a wMUD-style deck and it was quite nifty. You can always find something to copy, it comes down with Workshop mana and you can change what it's copying by welding it out and then back. could these be in the place of Myr Enforcers (since it's also  creature if needed)?

I also tried Great Furnace. It has excellent synergy with metalworker, welder and academy (or shrapnel blast), but I still wonder if the pluses outweight the minuses of it being easily destroyed.

[Vegeta2711]

I didn't give them too much of a shot, I couldn't really find room for them to begin with and also...

Quote since it's also  creature if needed

Not true, I have to make sure I have one of my 8 artifact critters in play and alive to copy a creature. I sort of just used the same rationale behind what kept Copy Artifact from being played in Stax or anything else.

Great Furnace is ok here. But that's strictly it, I don't need Shaman eating my red producing lands or Rod shutting them down for a limited boost to 3 cards.\n\n

[Bastian]

Rods should stop Great Furnaces, but mox monkeys should not. They're lands not spells.

[Spizzard]

Bastian - I think you might have got mox monkey mixed up with Chalice.  There not spells, so they can still be played under chalice for 0, but can still be eaten by Gorrilla Shaman for 1 mana since they are artifacts.... Unless I have this really mixed up....

[Vegeta2711]

Monkeys can still eat them as they are artifacts.

[KandyKid]

Any reason there are no great furnaces? just curious...

[Matt The Great]

They die to Kegs, Null Rods, and the occasional Pernicious Deed, all of which are painful enough already.

[bebe]

Why the Welders? I know that sounds heretical but since you use neither Stacks or Wires which is what make the Welders so good, what do you really use them for? Have they won games for you? I would rather side them.  
I also disagree over the Furnaces. Yes Kegs and Deeds hurt them. Kegs and Deeds will hurt you anyway.  
Last, are Myr Enforcers better than a trampling Lodestone Myr ( especially if using Furnaces).\n\n

[Arex]

I have been testing this deck, because I like it a lot.  

I made a small change though (added some Trikies), but welders do work great, especially vs. mirror match or other heavy artifact decks. Plus the synergy of the welders with the creatures like you attack, weld attackers out for some blockers it is still strong. And I use them to bring trikies back.  

Also, Myr Enforcers do work well in this deck, cause there are so many artifacts, I have played them either for 3 or 4 mana most of the time, and a few times even for free.

I have played testerd vs Sligh, Sui Black, Mask, TnT, Keeper, and some other random stuff. It does great most of the times, but vs mask is like a 50 50 match same as vs keeper. I haven't tested vs Tog (Hulk), MUD, and some other Tier 1 decks. Will post again later when I test a little more.

Hope this helps

Arex

[Cancerman]

Did you try with some Lodestone Myr?
Mis it with Winter Orb, and you can get yourself a great deal of an advantage!

Here's my decklist which took me to the top-4 at Carta Magica!

www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=20;t=11280;st=20