Stacker 3+ Updates

[bebe]

Cancerman - Yes. Lodestone seems a natural for the deck. Arex -  In the build presented there were no Trikes, Tangles or Stacks. So I still fail to see the usefulness of Welder outside the mirror. Attack and weld? Please. In Cancerman's build it makes very good sense. In fact overall his build looks very interesting.

Has anyone thought of splashing black for ... Disciple of the Vault? Could be some fun with active Welders and works around Null Rod, Rack and Ruin and Energy Flux nicely for the extra few points of damage.

[Vegeta2711]

Bebe - For me Null rods and Shaman's make playing the artifact lands too risky for me, the mana base is sort of shaky as is.

Quote  I know that sounds heretical but since you use neither Stacks or Wires which is what make the Welders so good

What makes them good is being able to trade a non swinging mox into a lost 5/3 or 4/4 and not being at a disadvantage vs. other artifact decks. If that's not enough... well whatever. :/

I couldn't think of anything that would be worth replacing the Welders with. They've always been solid for me.

Have you tested the deck? I'm curious after hearing you suggest cutting Welder.

Cancerman - Congrats on your performance and you've got an intresting build, I'll have to try Lodestone Myr, it seems like it could be a decent creature here and fits the curve. I take issue with the large amount of 1 of's and 2 of's you seem to have though. Do you consistently manage to find these or what? I mean I run Vise just because my deck was built around a soft damage lock, but a lot of 1 of critters that serve different purposes seems counter productive.

Though I see you want to cut them and in the end you came to the same conclusion about Greaves I did. That sucks about your experinces with Charbelcher though, mine have been much better. BTW, just for note Sculpting Steel is ass around 70% of the time and golden the other 30%.

I'm willing to throw Orb back in with Myr to try it togheter, but to me this is like repeating history. Orb wasn't that great in the first builds and even with the ability to make it one way, I never really cared that it was symmetrical to begin with. ^^

I miss Wire's sometimes though and I'm thinking about boarding the Pillar's for them, but everytime I do they seem to become extremely useful again. Bleh.

Arex - Nice to hear someone actually testing the deck. Trikes are cool and I fully endorse them as they're pretty good. And I appreciate it, more testing data/results from different people we get, the more we can see what works and what future modfications to make depending on meta's.

Oh what did you cut for the Trikes anyways? Charbelches or Shrap blasts? Because I'm actually thinking of dumping a blecher and maybe one other card for more critters or wires.\n\n

[bebe]

Well, I said cutting Welder sounds a bit heretical. I do understand their use. I did create Lock, Stock. I've also played mono-brown a number of times and TnT. I did not test your current build. It looks good on paper but I saw no Trikes, Stacks or Wires which are the most common abuse of Welder outside TnT which uses a few tricks to make them more useful. But if you think they are winning games for you by all means use them. I can think of a few cards that would work in your build but without testing I'll leave it for now ( orbs, chalices, et all).
Overall, i found your build looks quite promising so please do not take my comments as criticism.

[Arex]

what I did, I actually changed the 4 Shrapnel Blasts, for MetalWorkers and I dropped 1 Goblin Charbelcher and 1 CotV for 2 trikies.

The way the deck has performed with these changes are good. The Metalworkers are adding speed and I still think the welders are still a good option for the deck.

I have not tried the Winter Orb Tech with the 4x Lodestone Myr and I do not have Tangle Wires in the deck. So how does it work? You tap the Orb to the Myr at eot to untap all your lands? And then tap artifacts to pump him during your turn?

Maybe will try with 4 Myrs and 4 Winter Orbs. Maybe will drop 4 SuChi, 2 Enforcers, 1 Trikie and 1 Goblin Charbelcher to try this option.

Arex

[Cancerman]

@Arex: That's exactly the way you should do it! Tapping the winter Orb at the eot will allow you to untap all of your lands. Mix that with Tangle Wires, and you obtain a very good lock.

Also, with COTV on the board, along with Spheres, their secondary purpose is to pump the Myr for maximum damage. I really enjoy playing with this deck.

I'll be posting my revised version minus the Lightning Gleaves.

 

[Vegeta2711]

Bebe - Well I was just wondering, because I myself had never considered cutting them and it was an intresting question.

Arex - Gah! Why can I never get the same results as everyone else with Metalworkers.  

Cancer - Lodestone Myr actually seems rather useful. Don't they go completely against Wire though? It seemed to me when just throwing them around in the early game if I dropped the Myr and Wire I would quickly run out of things to tap for both and I'd be stuck with a 2/2 or 3/3 critter. Which of course is far too slow.

If you can reach midgame though, these things seem really good.

[Arex]

I'll try the new changes. Basically I changed Vegeta2711 build and added the workers instead of the blasts and added Cancerman's Winter Orb/Myr Tech. To make room for the Lodestone Myr, I took the Myr Enforcer, Su Chi (but still wondering if these should go either instead of welders or workers. Any suggestions?), and a Pillar.

T1 Heavy Metal Stacker 3

        1 Black Vise
        2 Triskelion
        4 Goblin Welder
        4 Juggernaut
        4 Lodestone Myr
        4 Metalworker (or Su-Chi to keep a good offense)
        4 Winter Orb
        3 Pyrostatic Pillar
        4 Sphere of Resistance
        4 Chalice of the Void
        4 Metalworker
        2 Goblin Charbelcher (these are working great with workers)
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Tolarian Academy
        1 Strip Mine
        2 Wasteland
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        9 Mountain
SB:  2 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  3 Rack and Ruin
SB:  3 Blood Moon
SB:  3 Fire/Ice
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast

Will try the deck during these days and will try to bring some notes on Friday.  
Arex

[bebe]

If you are using Welders why not try and fit in some Solemn Simulacrums - a blocker, a landcycler, a cantrip all in one and reusable time and again.

[Rico Suave]

Because Welders do enough on their own without Simulacrums, which are not really good without Welder.

Welder is amazing.  He overcomes anything that puts artifacts into your graveyard.  That includes artifact removal, creature removal, discard, and counterspells.  

Additionally, he is insanely good against other artifact-based decks.  That includes MUD/Stax, Mask, and even the occassional Chalice/Scepter decks.

While he's not AS good without Wire and all, he is still amazing.

[Cancerman]

Here it is guys... The latest version for my deck:

4x Goblin Welder
4x Juggernaut
1x Karn, Silver Golem
4x Lodestone Myr
1x Black Vise
4x Chalice Of The Void
1x Memory Jar
3x Sculpting Sphere
4x Sphere Of Resistance
4x Tangle Wire
4x Winter Orb
Mana:
7x SoLoMox
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
9x Mountain
1x Tolarian Academy
4x Mishra's Worshop
1x Strip Mine
2x Wasteland

Sideboard:
3x Blood Moon
3x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Rack And Ruin
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Triskelion
2x Tormod's Crypt

As you can see, I've added 3 Sculpting Steel. For a 3cc artifact, it can simply copy something very useful, wheter it's a Juggy, Myr, or even a Tangle Wire. Also, since it's an artifact, it can be welded!

So what do you think guys? Any input would be useful!

Thank you in advance.

[Browser]

Since you're running the Lodestone Myr's...Why not Static Orbs over Winter Orbs?  They seem like they'd be more punishing with Tangle Wires.

[Cancerman]

@Browser: Well, IMO I think that Static Orb is weaker to the Orb in many cases:
1) It can slow you down if you don'have the Myr on the board..
2) How can you obtain the lock if your opponent  doesn't tap his or her permanent?
3) Static Orb can make the opponent untap 2 permanents, which can be 2 lands.
4) Multiple copies of Tangle Wires can severely cripple your opponent, while multiple copies of Static Orb can't.

I understand and respect your opinion, but I think that Static Orb is just too tricky to be used.

[Browser]

Quote 1) It can slow you down if you don'have the Myr on the board..

It works just as well with an active Welder too.  So that's 8 cards that combo with it well.

Quote 2) How can you obtain the lock if your opponent  doesn't tap his or her permanent?

and...

Quote 4) Multiple copies of Tangle Wires can severely cripple your opponent, while multiple copies of Static Orb can't.

You seem to think I was contrasting the effect of Tangle Wire with Static Orb.  I would never justify pulling out Tangle Wires, that would be silly.  I was saying leave the Tangle Wires in, pull out Winter Orb for Static Orb.  

Or maybe go 2 & 2 or some other combination.  Since 2 Winter Orbs don't help each other (nor do 2 Static Orbs), though there is an advantage (albeit very small) to having one of each on the table.

[Cancerman]

@Browser: Well in that case, Tangle Wire and Static Orb are really awesome together.
Thanks for the input!

 

[Vegeta2711]

Ok there seems to be 3 variants. One is my original version of the deck, the next is Cancerman's and finally the Stacker version which has been doing well in Eindhoven. I'll have to put a little time into seeing which is the best version for the current meta now. Boo.

BTW, guys that list at the front of this post is pretty outdated, I made a few modifications I'll talk about tonight or tommorow.

[MuzzonoAmi]

From testing Slax, I'm starting to think that maybe reverting to a strategy of dedicated low CC hate, such as Ankh. Has anyone else tried this?

[walking dude]

I've messed around with ankh is an artifact beats deck. it was ok. It didn't do as much as I wanted v control, though ankh plus chalice for zero if I got both was a beating. It did help though. Where it really shone was v dragon where it bought me a lot of time. Still, I'm not sure if its worht it, its soso v U based, bad v aggro, and really only shines v combo and even there crypt would have just been better.

[MuzzonoAmi]

I'm not sure if you understood my post (through no fault of your own, it was written without much thought where experssion is concerned).

I was suggesting that with the metagame changes coming in January we might be best suited to a list like this(with obvious modifications made if you have power/workshops):


Slax: The $95 Solution
1-1-2004 Test Deck

Mana: 26
------------
10 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Grim Monolith
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine


Low CC Hate: 16
-----------------
4 Ankh of Mishra
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Winter Orb

Fat:8
-------
3 Myr Enforcer
2 Karn, Silver Golem
3 Juggernaut

Draw:4
-----------
3 Mind's Eye
1 Memory Jar

Utility:7
---------
4 Goblin Welder
3 Blood Moon


Sideboard:15
--------------
1 Blood Moon
4 Rack and Ruin
4 Duplicant
2 Pyroclasm
4 Tormond's Crypt\n\n

[Matt The Great]

Wow, I can almost build that! I would love for that deck to become good.\n\n

[Vegeta2711]

//NAME: Stacker 3
// Mana
       8 Mountain
       4 Mishra's Workshop
       4 Wasteland
       1 Strip Mine
       1 Tolarian Academy
       1 Mana Vault
       1 Black Lotus
       1 Sol Ring
       1 Mox Sapphire
       1 Mox Emerald
       1 Mox Jet
       1 Mox Pearl
       1 Mox Ruby
// Guns. Lots of guns.
       3 Shrapnel Blast
       1 Black Vise
// Other Stuff
       2 Mind's Eye (Currently being tested!)
// Lockies
       4 Pyrostatic Pillar
       4 Ankh of Mishra
       3 Chalice of the Void
       3 Blood Moon
// Critters
       4 Goblin Welder
       4 Su-Chi
       4 Juggernaut
       2 Triskelion / Myr Enforcer (Depends if you see aggro)
// Sideboard
SB:  4 Rack and Ruin
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  3 Damping Matrix / Tormod's Crypt
SB:  2 Fire/Ice
SB:  1 Chalice of the Void
SB:  1 Blood Moon

This is a version being worked on for the Post Jan. metagame that Koen gave me some advice for. (He just got 2nd in Eindhoven with a S3 build. ) Note though if you take Long into account (If you run Sphere of Resistance or not) you should be fine with running this pre-ban.

Ankh's are back because of Dragon and control coming into force again. Blood Moon returns as your not worried about dying on turn 1/2 anymore. Oh and one other plus is the loss of LED in Madness. It should slow Madness down enough to where we should win more games. ^_^