A new take on Burning Academy

[TheRock]

Actually, I have had problems using Xantid Swarm and Pyroblast the way that I wanted to.

It's not that you have 4 Mines, 4 Spheres, Petal, etc., it's the fact that you have to waste valuable mana for your draw-7's to get that Swarm into play.  Sphere requires two colorless mana;  I don't have that often enough.

In addition, take a look at this.  This is a more detailed description of Chromatic Sphere and Gemstone Mine, the two cards I want to compare:

Gemstone Mine
Casting Cost: 0
Type:  Land
Tap: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.  You can only tap this three times, and you can only play one land a turn.

Chromatic Sphere
Casting Cost: 1
Type: Artifact
1, Tap, sacrifice: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.  Draw a card.

Chromatic Sphere requires two mana to use, but you get to draw a card.  However, how many possible draws are there that can get you back the mana that you had spent?  Not many, I assure you.  Dark Ritual, Black Lotus, Mana Crypt, and Mana Vault, that's it.  LED is situational in this case, but you could count it.

Gemstone Mine can only be used three times, which is not important to us.  You can only play one land a turn, which is a small consequence but not a major one.  You can't pitch Mine to a Chrome Mox, but you can't pitch Sphere either.

Because of this, I've had no choice but to drop a Chromatic Sphere for another land, mainly City of Brass, because I can't use the cards that I want early enough for them to be effective.   I've made my point, I hope that it is clear, and I hope that you will all be able to see what I'm saying in a way.
I have too many mana problems to be able to throw two mana away; if I did I would run Time Spiral maindeck, which I don't.\n\n

[hippie tourach]

Yes, Gemstone Mine is objectively better than Chromatic Sphere. But remember that it's a land, and remember how many cards this deck draws per turn. When I see an Academy deck that can run 5 lands, I'm very happy, because I hate having land in my hand. The other thing to remember is that Chromatic Sphere is more than a mana source. When I first played the deck I hated it, but that's because I wasn't using it right. Brainstorm/Tutor, Chromatic Sphere, LED in response is a very common and very powerful play. At worst, it plays a draw-7 that you otherwise didn't have the mana for, at best it plays the winning Tendrils/Wish you didn't have the mana for.

LED doesn't work without 4 Spheres, and the deck doesn't work without LED, and that's the bottom line.

[Mordecai]

With regards to Regrowth, the only time you really will want Regrowth is if something awful happens to your Yawgmoth's Will and it's in the inaccessible zone (known to most as the graveyard).  Inaccessible, because you have neither Wishes nor Tutors to get it from there.  So you Wish for Regrowth.  However, should Regrowth or your Regrown Will be impeded in some way and you end up with both in your graveyard, consider yourself in a tough spot.  Solution?

Recoup.  Using red mana, which you are more likely than green to be cranking out with Diamonds or Spheres, you can get back your Will for the same total mana cost, remove the Will from the game regardless of it being countered (and thus making it more accessible), and have another shot at it should something untoward happen.

It may seem janky, but there aren't many situations in which you'd prefer Regrowth.  In the interests of fairness, this includes using Lotus mana for a Swarm and having leftover green, or Regrowing a Will to play on a subsequent turn.  However, I feel that the value of Recoup make it a better auxiliary Wish choice than Regrowth.

[hippie tourach]

Perhaps better than Regrowth but still not necessary. Will isn't a win condition, so I wouldn't add a card to the sideboard for the sole purpose of recovering it. Regrowth is more versatile than Recoup. Will probably won't end up in your graveyard anyway, if someone was going to Force they probably wouldn't wait for Will.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Quote How useful would enchantment removal be?  Would it actually win any games?  Enchantments aren't set at 0 like Chalice is, and your best bet against anything that's not free is to race it.  If all else fails, you have a maindeck Chains to remove something.

So what exactly are you gonna do about Land, Mox, Pyrostatic Pillar again? (Madness, TnT, sometimes even Sligh might do that. I think not loosing to your easy matchups is worth spending a singel SB slot.)

Quote Perhaps better than Regrowth but still not necessary. Will isn't a win condition, so I wouldn't add a card to the sideboard for the sole purpose of recovering it. Regrowth is more versatile than Recoup. Will probably won't end up in your graveyard anyway, if someone was going to Force they probably wouldn't wait for Will.

A good player will wait what you are wishing for, as they have neutralized more mana with their counter (making it harder for you to keep going) and getting Will into the graveyard makes Burning Wish a lot worse all by itself. To protect against Wish->Tendrils->uncounterable kill, they can count the number of spells you played before the Wish, if they're good.

[wuaffiliate]

balance is dead weight in the SB, i have only wished for it to get myself up in the red in spell count to tendrils.

regrowth is in the same boat, but it is more usefull since it can gain you more spells cast to go lethal. but i havent used it more than a handfull of times.

why do you need enchantment kill SB when you can just tutor/draw into chain?

im thinking of spiral over balance SB, balance does dick all to your hard matches, at least spiral can push you over the edge. or even a lone duress...\n\n

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote (hippie tourach @ Oct. 06 2003,12:27)Yes, Gemstone Mine is objectively better than Chromatic Sphere. But remember that it's a land, and remember how many cards this deck draws per turn. When I see an Academy deck that can run 5 lands, I'm very happy, because I hate having land in my hand. The other thing to remember is that Chromatic Sphere is more than a mana source. When I first played the deck I hated it, but that's because I wasn't using it right. Brainstorm/Tutor, Chromatic Sphere, LED in response is a very common and very powerful play. At worst, it plays a draw-7 that you otherwise didn't have the mana for, at best it plays the winning Tendrils/Wish you didn't have the mana for.

LED doesn't work without 4 Spheres, and the deck doesn't work without LED, and that's the bottom line.

I disagree - and have already posted elsewhere why.  To reiterate:

1) A 3-of in this deck is comparable to a playset in any other, due to the inordinate amount of draw and deck manipulation.

2) Dropping a single sphere and replacing it with a quasi-functional equivalent that trades added tempo for lost versatility is indeed viable.  The reasoning is because Chromatic Sphere is an engine card that performs support functions, rather than being an actual core/mandatory card.  This deck's core cards are somewhat diffuse, but can be grouped into categories such as Mana Artifact, Tutor, and Massive Draw.

Being in an inflexible mindset where you regard an engine card (note the distinction between "engine" versus "core" here) as an immutable playset is not good deck construction strategy, especially when a deck's survival is at stake.

Edit - @TheRock

In Chromatic Sphere's defense, it may require a 2 mana investment, but it recoups one as well.\n\n

[hippie tourach]

Mon, Goblin Chief: A good player will probably counter your first draw-7, or if they think you're running Duress (which they probably will, the deck looks like Long at first) they'll even counter mana sources. If they do wait for Will, it's pretty likely that you have FoW that late in the game. I don't deny that there are situations where you'd want to Wish for Regrowth/Recoup, but I don't feel it's often enough to warrant a sideboard slot.

VideoGameBoy:
I don't want a playset of Sphere, I want more. It's a card I would use multiple times per game if I had the chance. If the card limit was 5, I'd run 5. Besides, since Sphere is part of the draw/manipulation component. You're saying you can run fewer draw cards because of all the draw cards.

[EDIT: I'm not totally against the idea of taking out one Sphere, if the card replacing it were sufficient. Behind my argument is the fact that you're replacing a versatile mana and draw engine card with...a land.]\n\n

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Quote Mon, Goblin Chief: A good player will probably counter your first draw-7, or if they think you're running Duress (which they probably will, the deck looks like Long at first) they'll even counter mana sources. If they do wait for Will, it's pretty likely that you have FoW that late in the game. I don't deny that there are situations where you'd want to Wish for Regrowth/ Recoup, but I don't feel it's often enough to warrant a sideboard slot

Yes, they will counter the first draw7 but often enough they are still able to counter again turn 2 (when I'm able to cast Wish->Will), especially if I lost the die-roll. When playing this deck, I get into a situation where Burning Wish is my main business spell that's left and I hope to kill with Will quite often. In that situation Will gets countered too often for my liking.\n\n

[TheRock]

You are right about the Sphere being an important drawing engine.  I did not see that it could be used in that fashion.  Very well done hippie tourach.  I overanalyzed LED.  

Unfortunately, the problem with getting the mana I need still remains.  Remember that the only negative thing with a land is that you can only play one a turn.   A land nets you one colored mana for near nothing except for the above statement, and in the case of using another land like CoB or Glimmervoid, whatever costs are tied in respectively.  In the case of Xantid Swarm, you have to wait a turn anyway to attack, so the land would be even better.

Chromatic Sphere is neither a versatile mana engine or a big card-drawer.  It is a mix of both, tied with a cost of two colorless.  I usually find my mana, even colorless, hard to come by.

VideoGameBoy:  You are right, you do get one back from Chromatic Sphere.  I did not account that properly.  My apologies.\n\n

[hippie tourach]

To respond to both Mons and Rock, I think it's important to consider just how fast this new build of Burning Academy is.

To Mons, unless you slow this deck significantly, you won't survive to be able to play a second counterspell. Assuming you have FoW and Mana Drain, which would be a very nice draw, you still can't play Drain until 2nd turn, and this deck won't let you live that long unless you've nudered it. But I reiterate that Regrowth certainly has a use in the deck, and if you think you can spare a sideboard slot it's a decent enough choice. I just think there are better cards to take that position.

To TheRock, with the way this deck plays land is not a great thing to have. You usually won't play long enough for a second mana drop, because you don't have to with the new elements of the deck. Pre-Mirrodin you would run 11 lands because you had to, but when possible the fewest lands is the best. Not only can you drop only one land per turn, lands do not fuel your storm count. And I can think of numerous times playing this deck where Tendrils went for exactly 20.

[TheRock]

There is indeed the issue of not being able to fuel your Tendrils.  All you have to play is 10 spells, one of them being the Wish that you use to find your kill, and one of them being the Tendrils.  It doesn't seem to be that big of a deal, but I will look into that for you then.

You never get the chance to play two lands, you are right.  I did state that it was a disadvantage.  What is bad about a land is that if you don't need it, it's a dead draw.  But so are a few of the other cards in over-excess in the deck so that argument really doesn't hold.

Edit:  Being starts with a "B", lol.\n\n

[Soupboy]

I've been toying around with the older (  ) pre-Mirrodin build, but I think my findings will still hold true for this build.  I've come to two conclusions and wanted some feedback from others.  (Bear in mind that my "toying around" means shuffling and playing out games without an opponent, thus assuming I am not playing against control.  So take my 'findings' with a grain of salt.)

Time Walk:  I really don't like this card MD.  Yes, it's power, yes, it "cantrips."  But it also starts your storm count over again.  Drawing Time Walk in your opening hand requires you to drop at least one artifact (assuming you're lucky enough to pull a land).  So the trade is -1 storm count to draw an extra card.  The Mox (or whatever) should be held until time to "go off."  Time Walk drawn in a draw-7 is even worse.  You want to go off, not untap and start over.  It's a dead card at worst, starting over at best.  My thoughts:  Time Walk = sub par.  

Now I am considering moving Time Walk to the sideboard.  Why?  Because have been several times when Burning Wish has been a dead card in hand because I either a) didn't have enough mana to cast Tendrils, or b) didn't have a high enough storm count.  Starting over is still better than passing the turn   I'm not saying Time Walk is a bad card in Long.dec, simply that it is way more situational than in "normal" decks and thus paying an extra 1R when you need it, isn't too bad of a cost.  

I don't like Necro for the same reasons as Time Walk.  You sacrifice a turn before you can use it (I'm hearing similar results for X Swarm, but I haven't tested them yet).  Now first turn ritual necro is still a strong way to set up a turn two win.  But in my 30+ "games" I have yet to use it.  Does anyone else have more solid data that either supports or contradicts this?  

Now my question is what to add in place of these two spells.  I like having a Diminishing Returns MD, and something else?  

Just my two cents,
The Soup\n\n

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote (Soupboy @ Oct. 07 2003,20:17)Now I am considering moving Time Walk to the sideboard...

I don't like Necro for the same reasons as Time Walk...

Regarding Time Walk, I really can't conclusively say whether it deserves a maindeck slot - but if you relegate it to the sideboard, then you might as well remove it altogether, because it will never be fetched.

From my playing experiences with Time Walk, it has several key qualities:

1) It draws out counters.
2) You can use it to set up your winning turn.
3) You can play that Tolarian Academy you just drew off a draw seven "immediately", etc.

It is surprising that no one ever really considers dropping it, though - I think there is sort of a "power card" mentality that scoots it under the radar.

As for Necro, it's essentially Bargain for BBB, and is as automatic an inclusion as Ancestral.  Necro also happens to play into Burning Wish and gets around Chains of Mephistopheles, but that is all secondary to the insane card advantage it provides.  Goldfishing isn't where Necro shines, either - actual games are where it proves its merit.

edit - grammer\n\n

[Setnakt]

Necro means you win next turn. Pay like 15 and choose the best, then win. I'd never cut it.

[walking dude]

I’d actually been considering cutting time walk for regrowth for a while. I haven’t tested enough to say if its definitely a good idea yet though. Regrowth is pretty good in this deck it can act as a mini ritual getting you back a led or lotus in order to get more mana and it grabs a must counter out of your grave to overload control. I like regrowth better than recoup main because to recoup a draw 7 you need 5 mana, to regrow and cast 1 you only need 3 mana and 2 turns and if you have the 5 you still have the option to do stuff in one turn. This is the same reasoning that makes intuition for ak not suck. 5 mana for 3 cards is bad, but spread out over 2 turns its ok.

Walk is better v aggro, but I don't think long needs to be better v aggro.

[TheRock]

hippie:  After playing around for a little bit, I haven't had any problems with the storm count issue, or at least not enough to worry about it.  The only times I have ever had problems was when after my first draw-7, my hand was pretty much unusable. Whenever I have had enough mana to win with Tendrils after the first draw-7, I have had enough mana to use Returns as well.

I think that Time Walk is used for a different sense in this deck.  It's not really dependent on the opponent as much as it is just generating mana of some kind for use.  But, Time Walk is not the best mana producer in the deck for sure, and then there is the storm fueling of Tendrils.  Time Walk is very situational and is a pitch-card for FoW or Chrome Mox most times.\n\n

[hippie tourach]

For anyone who's done more playtesting than me, a question:

Everyone is assuming that Chalice hoses Long (see threads in this forum specifically about Chalice and especially the article by Smemmen). Of course, this version is built to be more Chalice resistent (FoW over Duress, MD Chains), and it's also significantly faster than pre-Mirrodin.

Does anyone testing this build extensively have information on how good a chance it has against 1st turn Chalice?

[wuaffiliate]

its obv going to be in the chalice player's advantage(testing showed this) if they can get that chalice to stick turn 1. but we have ways to deal with it before it hits and after maindeck and SB, not to mention the better turn 1 kill %age, so i think this deck may survive. well, untill spoils and mox are restricted but whatever the deck is broke and just makes me feel all dirty, its not how the game was meant to be played.

also i would say maybe of 10 turn 1 chalice cast(they play 1st) ill win 4 of those games, which is more than long.dec can say.