[Article] Chalice OTV: The New Black Vise

[hippie tourach]

I hope you're right. Otherwise I hope that as I suggested Chalice will fall out of favor gradually as it becomes less useful.

I did ignore some budget decks because I was still thinking in terms of combo destroying them. If combo does go down, they become more viable, competing decently against control. Black should be okay except facing a Workshop-mox-Chalice for 2.

Perhaps "death" is too permanent. I meant "temporary deathlike state"

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Quote I think the desirable goal is diversity - like we have now.  Control/Combo/Prison - I am fine with that environment.  

I personally don't care if there is aggro in the environment or not, either. The problem with todays environment is that
a) at least 50% of the games in any highly powered tournament fit exactly into the old time predjudice that T1 is all about first and second turn kills
and
b) rolling the die and shuffling shouldn't be the skills that decide games. And look at it without thinking about how cool WMud and Long are, that's exactly what happens. Any match that involves one of those decks comes down to who wins the die roll and the top 9 cards of both decks after shuffling (if the game takes a long time!), if both players aren't jerks and know how to play their decks.

[Browser]

Combining the fact that you often don't say things about ideas you are experimenting with and exploring...

Quote I haven't spoken out recently on the issue becuase all my thoughts are here.

...and the fact that you really said very little about the actual examples of how blue based control dominates this Chalice war...

I'm predicting that you and the other Paragons are working on blue based Scepter decks.  Neo-Keeper?  They could easily have an edge on the Workshop decks..

EDIT:  It's also interesting that no Paragons have posted on this thread: http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....t=10913

Am I right?\n\n

[kl0wn]

Having started playing competitively in 2001, right before FoF was restricted, I welcome the "all Keeper, all the time" environment. I love 3-4 color control mirrors.

And thank you Stephen, for not going apeshit about restrictions in your article like Rakso.

[Smmenen]

I am usually the person calling for restraint.

I requested that Rector not be restricted, that Workshop not be restricted, that Fork, Berserk, and Hurkyl's be UNrestricted and that Gush, Mind's Desire, and LED be restricted.

The defining principle is format distortion and domination which i have written about, at lenght in my Starcity article on why rector shouldn't be restricted.  http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=5636

Don't read into silence over any particular thread or not.  

Steve\n\n

[kl0wn]

Quote (Smmenen @ Oct. 06 2003,23:10)and that Gush, Mind's Desire, and LED be restricted.

Ah, but that Mind's Desire restriction cost me a bunch of money, which is what I was talking about. I mean, really...would unstoppable degenerate combo have been really that bad to have around for 3 months?

[Jacob Orlove]

Quote (Browser @ Oct. 07 2003,00:58)Combining the fact that you often don't say things about ideas you are experimenting with and exploring...

Quote I haven't spoken out recently on the issue becuase all my thoughts are here.

...and the fact that you really said very little about the actual examples of how blue based control dominates this Chalice war...
I'm predicting that you and the other Paragons are working on blue based Scepter decks.  Neo-Keeper?  They could easily have an edge on the Workshop decks..
EDIT:  It's also interesting that no Paragons have posted on this thread: http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....t=10913
Am I right?

Someone needs to get on IRC.  

Nice article, Steve.

[jpmeyer]

Quote (BillTheDuck @ Oct. 06 2003,18:02)Chalice seems like it will be absolutely sick when it first comes out, but aggro will be able to evolve around it. People will be able to think of something. As for combo, besides dragon, it seems like its getting hosed. If aggro decks are able to find a way around chalice (which I assume they will) then chalice may get played less, therefore making 0cc artifact based combo viable again. Aside from that, I don't see how it could be.

Shortened, I think the article shows excelently what the immediate effect of Chalice will be, but its a card that can be worked around, and there are some smart people out there.

The problem that I have with this sort of argument is that it misses a big point with the synergy that Chalice has.  The reason that Chalice works the BEST in decks like Workshop decks and Keeper is not just because Chalice can shut down whole aggro decks, but becuase if they try to build around Chalice it makes their deck even more succeptible to the rest of the deck.

Playing around Chalice by running an actual mana curve makes the following other cards in the decks more powerful:

Tangle Wire: The opposing deck's curve is higher, so they can't get away with plays like tapping all of their permanents but one mana source and still being able to drop a 1cc creature.

Smokestack: Since the opposing deck's spells cost more, it is harder for them to break the symmetry of Smokestack by trying to generate a favorable (or at least equal) permanent count.

Sphere of Resistance: As if the other deck's spells weren't expensive enough...

Swords to Plowshares: If aggro's threats cost more than one mana, this generates tempo instead of merely maintaining tempo.  This also makes it more easy for the control deck to play catch-up if it's going second.

Mana Drain: This is pretty self-explanatory

Balance/Mind Twist: If they can't empty their hand as fast as before these can be more damaging.

[jntemp777]

Nice points in your article.

I think Chalice is not a card that will define type 1, but one that will greatly harm the format.  

Now, more than ever, for someone even remotely interested in playing type 1 , "You can't play type 1".  
Starter type 1 decks like sligh and white weenie and sui black just cannot be played.  

I think you're right about the four different type 1 deck types that will exist after Mirrodin.  IMHO I think it's really sad that in a format that has access to all the cards in the game, one card forces you play 1 of 4 different decks or lose.

Restriction is not enough.  Ban the goddam Chalice

[K-Run]

Stop asking for restriction.

Just imagine for a moment that Mana Drain and Mishra's Workshop never existed. Now, let's pretend they're printing Mana Drain in Mirrodin. Would you ask for its restriction? Same thing with Workshop. Those cards are environment-defining and they make a lot of cards bad, but still, they're unrestricted.

Just wait for complete, convincing domination IN TOURNAMENTS and then I'll agree with you.\n\n

[rozetta]

Quote Stop asking for restriction.

Amen to that.

{rant}
I'm pretty tired of hearing people asking for/saying that either chalice or workshop need to be restricted. This is the same "we fear change" reaction seen every time something remotely interesting happens in type 1, and yet amazingly, somehow people adapt. So some archetypes get harmed - maybe, god forbid, new ones will emerge. Existing ones may adapt. Time to look at the 4,800 cards still not being used in the format (not to mention the plentiful other interesting cards mirrodin has to offer), get out there, and build something new.
{/rant}

[jntemp777]

I agree that there tends to be many knee jerk reactions to new cards.  However recently, those knee jerk reactions have been dead on: ex. minds desire.  

Waiting is to see tourney results is cool too.  This will be kinda like waiting for Fact or Fiction to be restricted.  

For anyone thinking that Chalice in a Workshop deck can simply be played around, have you played against Chalice o' MUD yet? (I don't think there's a complete decklist on TMD but it's basically Welder MUD modified to fit in 3-4 Chalices).
A lot of games against previous MUD felt like you didn't play a game.  Now with Chalice o' MUD, you really don't get to play a game.

With the testing that my playgroup did, decks running with many threat cards in the range of 4, 5, 6, or greater casting cost are the only decks that will not just roll over and die because of Chalice.  Basically the Workshop based decks:TNT, Stax, and MUD.  Blue based Control just runs so many 1cc and 2cc spells that a resolved Chalice really shuts down their search and card draws.  

If your meta doesn't have a lot of Workshop Decks then Chalice will not seem too broken.   If so, then I'm sorry.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Quote However recently, those knee jerk reactions have been dead on: ex. minds desire.  

Other knee-deep reactions included the mourning because of Berserk x4. Not that dead on, was it?

Quote Waiting is to see tourney results is cool too.  This will be kinda like waiting for Fact or Fiction to be restricted.

I'm not sure FoF restriction was that necessary at the time. We did have other decks than MonoU winning our tournaments over here. If I had to choose what was the best deck in 4 FoF environment, Ur-Tubbies as played here would be my choice. Well, that did have 4 FoFs, though, so it might not be the best example. I'm quite sure, if not for the Tog, FoF would actually be handled by today. BBS dominated the US because no one tried building NEW decks to beat it.

FoF would probably be broken right now, but only because Tog exists. Otherwise I'm quite sure it would be balanced (just look at the top control decks atm, only Keeper still runs FoF, all the others have cut it because it's to expensive for it's effect).\n\n

[jntemp777]

Mon,

You make some good points about 4x FoF in BBS, but 4x Chalice in Mud doesn't even compare.  

FoF
It often takes anywhere from 2-4 turns to cast FoF.  Most consistently it takes about 3-4 turns.   A resolved FoF can be good.  It can be very good.  It is possible to obtain such brutal advantage that you may likely win.  But most importantly, the game will still continue for at least a few more turns.    

Chalice
It can be cast on turn 1.   If cast on turn 1 for 1cc voiding, then many decks cannot play a game anymore.  With Workshop, it can consistently be cast on turn 1 for 2cc voiding.  
There has never been a card like this that just ends games before they even begin.  Cards like Force of Will can stop your amazing 1st turn, but these cards still let you play a damn game.    

I've played games against Chalice of Mud where they drop a 1st turn Chalice for 1cc voiding followed by a turn 2 Chalice for 2cc voiding.  I scoop with only 1 land in play.  What deck can possibly handle this kind of voiding?  Only another Workshop deck.

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Mon, Goblin Chief @ Oct. 07 2003,21:42)BBS dominated the US because no one tried building NEW decks to beat it.

I disagree.  At the time, it was nearly impossible to reliably beat BBS w/4 FoF without being a hate deck.  

I think the reason people are able to adapt nowadays is because of the greater card pool.  There have been a lot of nifty cards that have come out since FoF got nixed, the most notable being fetchlands which single-handedly neutered B2B.

[MisterShark]

Gorilla Shaman may soon be known better as Chalice Monkey  

Honestly though, a shake-up the likes of the one we are about to experience at the hands of Chalice, will be interesting.  Adaptation is the essence of our game, and it's one of the elements that stimulates intelligent deck engineering.  Face the problem/ seek the solution; adapt!
Darwinism at it's best!
 

[David Hernandez]

@jntemp777:

just a comment about running "3 or 4 Chalice in MUD".  I think that the card is deck-defining, and will require 4 in any Workshop-related build.

dave

[Browser]

Quote Someone needs to get on IRC.

Meh...  I barely have enough time to read this website these days.  Maybe when I actually repurchase the Power 9 and jump back in I'll check out IRC.

[jntemp777]

Quote (MisterShark @ Oct. 07 2003,19:56)Gorilla Shaman may soon be known better as Chalice Monkey

@MisterShark: thats why we Workshop-Chalice for 1cc spells on first turn.  


@Dave:  absolutely correct.  The version my friend was testing used 4.  The version I tested used 3.  His deck was superior.  

One comment about shutting Hulk down with Chalice.  A lot of people have said you need to Chalice for 3cc against Hulk in order to win.  While this is correct, once you Chalice for 1cc, you've really slowed them down.  When you resolve your Chalice for 2cc, then you've essentially won because Hulk can no longer draw and it then relies only on 4x Forces to attempt to stop you.

[Toad]

Quote (jntemp777 @ Oct. 08 2003,02:02)For anyone thinking that Chalice in a Workshop deck can simply be played around, have you played against Chalice o' MUD yet? (I don't think there's a complete decklist on TMD but it's basically Welder MUD modified to fit in 3-4 Chalices).
A lot of games against previous MUD felt like you didn't play a game.  Now with Chalice o' MUD, you really don't get to play a game.

Chalice can be played around in a Workshop deck. Chalice Welder MUD is far from unbeatable and has bad matchups. Keeper is one of those. Of course, if you were playing Sligh, Stompy or Goblins, a first turn Chalice for 1 can't be played around. This is just because you don't play the right deck. Chalice are obviously a strong lock component, but they don't make the deck broken. It's just strong. Decklists will have to adapt to Chalice, mostly by diversifying their CC or running maindeck Chalice removal, and then the metagame will fix itself as it always does.\n\n

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Quote I disagree.  At the time, it was nearly impossible to reliably beat BBS w/4 FoF without being a hate deck.  

I think the reason people are able to adapt nowadays is because of the greater card pool.  There have been a lot of nifty cards that have come out since FoF got nixed, the most notable being fetchlands which single-handedly neutered B2B.

In the beginning of 2001 we had BBS domination here, too.  We did adjust BACK THEN. The deck was still really good and often enough played, but WE DID BEAT IT with a mix of hate and non hate decks none the less. All the Tubbies variants running rampant since summer 2001 just gave it to hard a hard time and it was just one of the best decks in the end of the year. If I had to pick the best 4 FoF deck from my experiences, it wouldn't be BBS but Ur Tubbies.

I don't mean to say FoF didn't need to be restricted (after all, most of the best decks included it), but if your meta was dominated by BBS alone, you did something wrong.

Quote Chalice can be played around in a Workshop deck. Chalice Welder MUD is far from unbeatable and has bad matchups. Keeper is one of those. Of course, if you were playing Sligh, Stompy or Goblins, a first turn Chalice for 1 can't be played around. This is just because you don't play the right deck. Chalice are obviously a strong lock component, but they don't make the deck broken. It's just strong. Decklists will have to adapt to Chalice, mostly by diversifying their CC or running maindeck Chalice removal, and then the metagame will fix itself as it always does.

I'm not sure about chalice being BROKEN with Workshop yet, that's why I'd put Workshop (or rather Smokestack ) on the so called watch list. I'd really hate those lock-decks, as they're to fast for my liking, but I'm not sure right now they'll dominate, so I don't think they need to be handled yet.

[brianb]

So if chalice becomes ubiquitous, decks will have to adapt.  The 1cc mana curve/spike is gone.  But what about mana drain, the reason the 1cc curve existed in the first place?  We used to talk about aggro decks being caught in a hammer/anvil of powder keg and mana drain.  Chalice's metagame impact dwarfs the keg.  So mana drain is looking more dominant.  I don't see how this new metagame adapts into anything even remotely healthy.  The only aggressive decks that can compete require workshops or bazaars.  Either we start allowing proxies all the time, or the budget player gets dominated (as if he weren't already).  I'll be greatly looking forward to the next b/r list.

[Smmenen]

People never read what I say.

This is PRECISELY what I have been trying to say.


Mana Drain forces efficiency, and Chalice punishes that efficiency.  The result is that Blue Based control = good.  How can that be a good thing? When you can't compete with it, esp if Workshop is restricted.

Steve

[jntemp777]

Quote (Smmenen @ Oct. 08 2003,14:49)Mana Drain forces efficiency, and Chalice punishes that efficiency.  The result is that Blue Based control = good.  How can that be a good thing? When you can't compete with it, esp if Workshop is restricted.

Steve

You're right about Blue based control being difficult to complete against.  It always has been good.  Power nine consists of 3 blue cards.  

No matter what happens we will always have the following equation:
Blue Based control = Good.  A game may occur.

However if Workshop is not restricted then we have the following equation:

Workshop+Chalice=Game ended on turn 1.  No game has occured.

Honestly, IMHO, most of the TMDers that cannot see that the interaction between Workshop+Chalice is far more broken than the fastbond+Gush combo,  must own 4 or more Workshops.  

I completely agree with BrianB.  We gotta have a new B/R list post Mirrodin.\n\n

[Smmenen]

Mishra's Workshop is very good.  But you must beleive I have tested it alot.  I know how good it is.  But it's not as dominant as I thought it would be.

Steve

[David Hernandez]

Regarding the "Chalice punishes efficiency" comment: I agree.  It really does hurt.  However, there are many cards that do help adapt, and they fit into a curve:

1cc: Crumble, Mox Monkey, Goblin Welder

2cc: Disenchant, Seal of Cleansing, Naturalize, Goblin Tinkerer, Artifact Mutation, Powder Keg, Shatter, Boomerang

3cc: Rack and Ruin, Viashino Heretic, Abolish (also can be cast without paying it's mana cost), Aura Shards, Aura of Silence, Pillage, Corrosion, Crash, Dismantling Blow, Dust to Dust, Energy Flux, Capsize

4cc: Shatterstorm, Nev's Disk, Aftershock, Jester's Cap (proactive), Bash to Bits (jank, but has flashback), Break Asunder, Creeping Mold

Various: Meltdown, Detonate.

The list goes on, so i wont bore you (although i probably already did).

my point is that there are many cards that can stop Chalice, and they fit into every color and almost every casting cost.  

Knowing that a Chalice will probably be cast for 0/1/2, we will have to adapt and be ready by siding (or maindecking) some of these answers.  I'm not saying that decks should be built exclusively to hose Chalice--I'm saying that it's just another strategy we have to be ready for.

Additionally, many of these cards fit into existing strategies. Others may require that we re-think some current deck-builds.

I think we are all going to have to make a compromise and figure out how we can utilize the available pool to defend (or proactively attack) the strategies that are becoming available with Mirrodin.

--Dave\n\n

[Bastian]

Isn't turning the decks, or having counter measures vs a single card in just about EVERY deck because of A SINGLE CARD a proof that the card's too much powerful?

Detonate and Meltdown count as 1cc spells as well, I think.

[David Hernandez]

Like I said, we always have to watch out for certain strategies, but I agree that this one is strong/tough...

I don't think Meltdown and Detonate count as single casting cost spells...they are variable.  If I am wrong, somebody please correct me.  If I cast a Meltdown for 4R, and you Mana Drain it, you get 5 colorless mana on your next main phase.  Correct?

If so, then you would cast Meldown for R + number_of_counters_on_chalice .


dave.

[Bastian]

Isn't turning the decks, or having counter measures vs a single card in just about EVERY deck because of A SINGLE CARD a proof that the card's too much powerful?

jntemp777: The speed you mention that is granted by Mishra's Workshop when playing a chalice is pretty good, but even if the workshop was restricted there's still the chance of playing it early on with the help of artifact mana, lands that give more than one mana and mana drains, etc... So the problem isn't quite the workshops since they existed before in a healthy metagame.
It's the chalice that MIGHT break that healthy status of the game.

EDIT: I said before that spells like Meltdown should count as spells with a converted mana cost of 1, but I was wrong. For those who might, as me, fell in the same mistake, here's the ruling:

K.28.3 - If there is an in the mana cost of a spell, consider the amount paid in 'X' to be part of the cost while the spell is on the stack, but 'X' is zero after the card becomes a permanent or while the card is any place other than on the stack. [CompRules 1999/04/23]

So this clears up my doubts... Chalices set at 0 won't counter chalices that are played but thankfully X spells have varying costs when on the stack.\n\n

[Jacob Orlove]

Quote If so, then you would cast Meldown for R + number_of_counters_on_chalice .

Well, you'd cast it with X=0, unless chalice had one counter, in which case you'd cast it with X=1.

But yes, while it's on the stack, its CMC is 1+X.