[Article] Chalice OTV: The New Black Vise

[Smmenen]

EDIT: now clickable!

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=5883

Article

I haven't spoken out recently on the issue becuase all my thoughts are here.  Enjoy!

Steve Menendian\n\n

[MarkPharaoh]

I refuse to go to that link until you make it clickable!

[Matt The Great]

You should have let me edit this. Thirty seconds in, and I find two mistakes ('to' vs 'too' and 'affect' vs 'effect')!

My thoughts, in no particular order:

Short and sweet, a nice read.

What does OTV stand for?

Does Chalice really replace STP in Keeper decks [an astute TMD reader will notice several paragons as much as stating that with Scepter and Chalice, Keeper finally gets tools to make it not totally inferior to Tog]? It seems like you'll still need removal for when you lose the coinflip and they get a turn one threat - or will FoW/Cunning Wish(/Fire?) be enough to cover such eventualities?

How hard will this hypothetical Keeper deck be hit by the incoming artifact hate?

Shrapnel Blast sure is awful. Charbelcher sure is good.

I think that massive unpopularity of a deck style (prison) IS a reason for neutering of the archetype. If no one (or nearly no one) likes it - kill it, I say.

Could a decent Chalice foil be found in a deck that could throw away any cards it drew that had been Chalice'd out? Sort of like Survival - if you drew a BoP with Chalice=1 on the board, you could just toss it for a creature of differing casting cost. Maybe something with Wild Mongrel or Zombie Infestation (or Psychatog) where no card is truly a 'dead draw'.

Quote Finally, we hit on one of the reasons Chalice is so powerful: It punishes speed and efficiency. The more efficient your deck is, the bigger the risks. A deck like Sligh needs twenty-eight one-mana spells.

I remember thinking this same thing when Pernicious Deed came out. Speaking of which, Deed and Chalice have a funny relationship - even as Chalice does a good job of making Deed obsolete, Chalice's proliferation of the environment will make Deed a potentially stronger choice.

I think that's all for now.\n\n

[Smmenen]

It's called the Ferrett, and he's supposed to be an Editor.  I don't think he edits my work anymore.  

Steve

[David Hernandez]

who is "Oscar Tar"?

anyway, this was a good read!

dave.

[Eastman]

It is a good article, your predictions about the chalice's effects will likely turn out to be true.. good insight.

You don't justify your title (comparing chalice to black vise) outside of your prediction that it will cause change in type 1 (change is bad?).

Forgive me, but the title is extremely melodramatic. You have no right to state such baseless claims as fact on a publically read forum.\n\n

[jpmeyer]

Quote (Eastman @ Oct. 05 2003,22:28)It is a good article, your predictions about the chalice's effects will likely turn out to be true.. good insight.

You don't justify your title (comparing chalice to black vise) outside of your prediction that it will cause change in type 1 (change is bad?).

Forgive me, but the title is extremely melodramatic. You have no right to state such baseless claims as fact on a publically read forum.

Why such the adverse reaction to the title?  It's like Black Vise because it can go effortlessly into just about any deck and because its presence heavily alters deck construction.  I personally thought he covered those aspects of Chalice in the article.

[Copperleaf]

Quote I think that massive unpopularity of a deck style (prison) IS a reason for neutering of the archetype. If no one (or nearly no one) likes it - kill it, I say.

Amen!  At least combo decks get it overwith quickly.. playing against a prison deck is absolutely no fun..

[Mellow D]

Quote (Matt The Great @ Oct. 05 2003,18:52)What does OTV stand for?

OTV = of the Void

[Brendan]

Slightly off topic, but I'd like to go on the record as saying I love prison decks. I mourn the loss of stasis in 1.x ;(

[Eastman]

Quote Why such the adverse reaction to the title?  It's like Black Vise because it can go effortlessly into just about any deck and because its presence heavily alters deck construction.  I personally thought he covered those aspects of Chalice in the article.

I thought that aspect of the title, and of the beginning of the article, was overly negative.


The meat of the article, as I said, was excellent.

I was only expressing a criticism that I think was fair. We needn't argue about it.

[Vegeta2711]

Nice article though editing = 0. Oscar Tar though is pretty good.

My deck! Dude I have a name though, I'm Josh for future reference. ^^

[rozetta]

I proof-read the article some time ago but obviously didn't manage to find every typo. Sorry about that - I feel partially responsible. I suppose I was also expecting Ferret to make a pass over it before putting it up on the site.

Anyway, as usual, good article. After testing with Chalice of the Void, I can say that I agree with a lot of what's been said. I think we'll see proof of that when people start posting their Mirrodin deck builds here.\n\n

[Toad]

As I've already told you, nice article Steven.

Quote (Copperleaf @ Oct. 06 2003,05:18)

Quote I think that massive unpopularity of a deck style (prison) IS a reason for neutering of the archetype. If no one (or nearly no one) likes it - kill it, I say.

Amen!  At least combo decks get it overwith quickly.. playing against a prison deck is absolutely no fun..

That's not a reason to restrict Mishra's Workshop. Scrubs say Force of Will are too strong. I hate playing against Mono Blue because It's boring and annoying as hell. Facing a first turn Duress + Hymn to Tourach is no fun. So, restrict Force of Will, Island and Hymn to Tourach ?
If you want to play for fun, ask your friends. No one forces people to go to the tourneys where they face Prison. Fun has nothing to do with Competitive tournaments.

[MoreFling]

Quote (Toad @ Oct. 06 2003,12:52)That's not a reason to restrict Mishra's Workshop. Scrubs say Force of Will are too strong. I hate playing against Mono Blue because It's boring and annoying as hell. Facing a first turn Duress + Hymn to Tourach is no fun. So, restrict Force of Will, Island and Hymn to Tourach ?
If you want to play for fun, ask your friends. No one forces people to go to the tourneys where they face Prison. Fun has nothing to do with Competitive tournaments.

Magic (T1) = fun? hmm... new concept!

[MuzzonoAmi]

I always thought T1 was fun. If I didn't, I'd still be playing type 2. But back on topic, I feel that there is still no good reason to restrict Workshop. As Steve said in the article, if Prison doesn't survive, then we're going to revert to the metagame of two years ago where Keeper and deck X(in this case, X= Hulk) will be the undisputed kings. And even killing Workshop won't neuter Prison decks. It'll just make the card plummet in value, meaning decks like Slax and Budget MUD can pick one up and stick it in there. And both decks have good matches against blue-based control archetypes.

So restricting Workshop won't do much other than make Prison decks teir 2 at best...let's all break out our FoWs if that happens, because if it does, we're in for something worse than another combo winter. We're in for the Blue-based control winter.\n\n

[walking dude]

Quote So restricting Workshop won't do much other than make Prison decks teir 2 at best...let's all break out our FoWs if that happens, because if it does, we're in for something worse than another combo winter. We're in for the Blue-based control winter.

An environment of all blue based control is much better than an environment of all combo. Equating the two and saying that blue based control winter would be the worse than combo winter is the height of foolishness. Between 2 competent combo players who are playing well tuned decks and know how to mulligan well the person going first should win close to every time.  Beyond the basic competence needed to properly pilot your combo of choice there is no skill involved. Worse still matches (not games) are over in 2-3 turns. The player interaction and bluffing aspects of the game that many enjoy are completely removed. Control mirrors amongst the very best of the best may come down to luck, but most of the time they go to the player with better skills. The player who can successfully make every card in their hand seem like yawgwin and so trick the opponent into hoarding counters and letting fof go through will win. The player who can look an opponent in the eye and see that their 7 card hand is just 6 lands and a fire ice will win. With combo the player who can successfully call a coin in the air will win. I love combo, it’s the deck I play. But when you are talking about the health of the environment its not even close.

[Triple_S]

The best of your articles yet.  Solid content, no talking down to the reader, big plusses.  And I like the passage about seeing the impace of Chalice before restricting Workshop, that is huge.\n\n

[Smmenen]

Quote (walking dude @ Oct. 06 2003,09:02)An environment of all blue based control is much better than an environment of all combo. Equating the two and saying that blue based control winter would be the worse than combo winter is the height of foolishness.

I essentially agree with your broader position, but I think the way you articulated it is wrong becuase:

1) I don't think the author was equating those two environments.  I think the current environment, while having a heavy combo element, is not currently all combo.  Thus, she would be comparing a partly combo environment, to an all control environment.  And in that, I would take the former.  

2) Your description of why combo is worse than control relies on your opinion about what makes magic games good - you must realize that that is subjective.  While most people agree with you, I'm sure not everyone would.  Some people strongly hate control.

Quote The best of your articles yet.  Solid content, no talking down to the raader, big plusses.  And I like the passage about seeing the impace of Chalice before restricting Workshop, that is huge.

Thanks for the kind words shane.  I hope my articles are always getting better - and I know that different things appeal to different players. Tell me though, what do you mean "talking down the radar?"

Steve\n\n

[MuzzonoAmi]

Quote (walking dude @ Oct. 06 2003,09:02)

Quote So restricting Workshop won't do much other than make Prison decks teir 2 at best...let's all break out our FoWs if that happens, because if it does, we're in for something worse than another combo winter. We're in for the Blue-based control winter.

An environment of all blue based control is much better than an environment of all combo. Equating the two and saying that blue based control winter would be the worse than combo winter is the height of foolishness. Between 2 competent combo players who are playing well tuned decks and know how to mulligan well the person going first should win close to every time.  Beyond the basic competence needed to properly pilot your combo of choice there is no skill involved. Worse still matches (not games) are over in 2-3 turns. The player interaction and bluffing aspects of the game that many enjoy are completely removed. Control mirrors amongst the very best of the best may come down to luck, but most of the time they go to the player with better skills. The player who can successfully make every card in their hand seem like yawgwin and so trick the opponent into hoarding counters and letting fof go through will win. The player who can look an opponent in the eye and see that their 7 card hand is just 6 lands and a fire ice will win. With combo the player who can successfully call a coin in the air will win. I love combo, it’s the deck I play. But when you are talking about the health of the environment its not even close.

I beg to differ.

In an environment full of Blue Based control, you get random hate decks like Stompy in the upper-middle teirs. Killing Prison decks will enable crap like BBS and URPhid to come back out, and playing against those decks or watching the mirror is sginficantly less interesting than watching, for example, the long.dec mirror. Also, playing one of those two decks requires relatively minimal skill as compared to something like WelderMUD or Long.dec.  If you can out-bluff your opponent, you can win with a permission deck. One of the best things about the metagame right now is the lack of countermagic in the top decks. And taht, IMO, is part of what is contributing to the growth of the format right now.

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Triple_S @ Oct. 06 2003,12:32)The best of your articles yet.  

I agree.  Good job.  

Quote So restricting Workshop won't do much other than make Prison decks teir 2 at best...let's all break out our FoWs if that happens, because if it does, we're in for something worse than another combo winter. We're in for the Blue-based control winter.

We already had that.  The entire time from Necro's restriction to TnT, there was blue-based control everywhere and nothing to challenge it.  

That wasn't bad at all.  That was fun, actually.

[Dante]

Quote (Smmenen @ Oct. 06 2003,12:00)Thanks for the kind words shane.  I hope my articles are always getting better - and I know that different things appeal to different players. Tell me though, what do you mean "talking down the radar?"

Steve

I think he misspelled "reader" as "raader"....

Dante

[Triple_S]

Should have been reader, not radar...typos are not tech

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Good read! I'm not sure that Chalice will proove to be a mistake, though. Chalice is good, but it only forces people to adapt, it doesn't take the fun out, IMO. But maybe I'm prooven wrong.

Quote That's not a reason to restrict Mishra's Workshop. Scrubs say Force of Will are too strong. I hate playing against Mono Blue because It's boring and annoying as hell. Facing a first turn Duress + Hymn to Tourach is no fun. So, restrict Force of Will, Island and Hymn to Tourach ?
If you want to play for fun, ask your friends. No one forces people to go to the tourneys where they face Prison. Fun has nothing to do with Competitive tournaments

As Type I is not relevant for any money-related Magic, I always thought people were playing our format for the fun of it....

Quote In an environment full of Blue Based control, you get random hate decks like Stompy in the upper-middle teirs. Killing Prison decks will enable crap like BBS and URPhid to come back out, and playing against those decks or watching the mirror is sginficantly less interesting than watching, for example, the long.dec mirror. Also, playing one of those two decks requires relatively minimal skill as compared to something like WelderMUD or Long.dec.  If you can out-bluff your opponent, you can win with a permission deck. One of the best things about the metagame right now is the lack of countermagic in the top decks. And taht, IMO, is part of what is contributing to the growth of the format right now.

If both players know how to play their decks, Combo-decks and Prison decks as fast as WelderMud the game is not longer a game of skill but a shuffling contest. Whoever manages to get his opening hand to be better wins. Skill aside from knowing how to play solitair is taken out of the game. And I don't think he who shuffles better should be winning.
There is no real growth in the format right now. As much as you might like playing without an opponent, Magic is meant to have two players clashing their skills to determine who wins. Long (and quite often WMud) don't do that as much as letting the shuffle-king win. The format as a whole needs to be slowed down by at least a turn. If the fundamental turn of all top decks has to be two or less to make them competetive, something is definitly wrong.
If the most important gameskill is mulliganing into FoW if you lost the dieroll and into Chalice/Sacred Ground if you won it, that's just stupid.

Quote We already had that.  The entire time from Necro's restriction to TnT, there was blue-based control everywhere and nothing to challenge it.  

That wasn't bad at all.  That was fun, actually.

Actually, 4 FoF Draw Go sucked as that was exactly what Muzzono Ami showed us the horror-example of stupid Control-decks.
But Ur FoF-Tubbies soluted that problem quite handily over here (until FoFs restriction killed both decks), making the format quite enjoyable. After all even the best control-deck is slow, which gives you time to start your anti-strategy. 2nd turn kill combo doesn't and therefor turns a game of skill into a game of luck (as long as the combo-player managed to understand the repeating patterns of his deck). What I want to say is that control allows you to adjust without having to stock up on loads of pure hate that just narrows your decks scope, which combo doesn't. And combo, as hard as it is to play, is in the end not a really skill intensive deck, as you loose depending on opening hands/Draw7 results not on your opponents skill level MOST OF THE TIME. All you have to be good in is memorizing the plays and cutting your opponents deck away from FoWs.
 
Btw, watching long.dec might be fun (until you've seen it like 50 times, that is), playing against it usually isn't.

[hulk3rules]

It was a good article Steve.  I did happen to notice this though:

Quote In Workshop decks such as Stax, Stacker 3, and even TnT

I can't help but notice you didn't mention Mud- and I feel that this may actually be intentional...

[Os-Vegeta]

Quote There is no real growth in the format right now.

I feel the same.  The combo and prison influx really seems to have caused some stagnation.  Right now, it feels like everyone is waiting to see what happens with Mirrodin while privately doing their own testing and opting to hold off on posting any results until they get to use it in a tournament.  

@ Steve:  

This was a nice article, and as usual your thoughts are very similar to mine. If you ever need an editor to proofread before you send your article to The Ferrett, just send it to me over AIM.  Next time I see you on I'll message you with my current screenname.  

I would say I'd have to agree with most of what you say here:

Quote Category B
Use Chalice in the sideboard as a hoser.

Most budget decks fall into this category. The capacity to mulligan safely into a card which just hoses power combo decks like long.dec, as described above, is simply to powerful to ignore. Finally, budget decks have a good, free, answer to combo - but at a price.

I feel there could be an exception to this - black decks (ab)using Chalice in the main (like Zherbus' Chalice Black and my my current Br build) that do not feel really harsh after-effects because of the diversity of the casting costs run.\n\n

[Smmenen]

I think we are now in a Catch 22 double bind.  

If you slow down the format by taking out the remaining prison elements by restricting workshop then you have a situation where Chalice deals effectively with the combo/aggro elements, and then control just dominates.  

I think the desirable goal is diversity - like we have now.  Control/Combo/Prison - I am fine with that environment.  

I fail to see how a heavy blue based control environment can possibly be thought of as healthy.   Now its possible that foils could emerge, but it seems unlikely to me.  TnT?  Dragon?  If blue based control dominates, Wastelands are going ot be everywhere.

Steve\n\n

[hippie tourach]

The article covered the immediate effects of Chalice very well I believe. What I wonder is what happens after that?

If control and Workshop start showing up with 3-4 Chalice and (let's say) hose all combo and (budget) aggro decks, people will stop playing combo and aggro. We're looking at the only playable decks being Tog, Workshop, and presumably blue/blue-based control variations. All of which run a lot of power. So first of all let's recognize the death of the 'casual' Type 1 player who can't afford moxen.

This may not actually happen, but say those aggro and control players switch to something else or stop playing. After the primary effect, will Chalice stay viable maindeck? Or will it need to be cut for more efficiency against the decks with mana curves? What do the control players think about this? What would you do with Chalice after combo disappears?

[BillTheDuck]

Chalice seems like it will be absolutely sick when it first comes out, but aggro will be able to evolve around it. People will be able to think of something. As for combo, besides dragon, it seems like its getting hosed. If aggro decks are able to find a way around chalice (which I assume they will) then chalice may get played less, therefore making 0cc artifact based combo viable again. Aside from that, I don't see how it could be.

Shortened, I think the article shows excelently what the immediate effect of Chalice will be, but its a card that can be worked around, and there are some smart people out there.

[Os-Vegeta]

Quote We're looking at the only playable decks being Tog, Workshop, and presumably blue/blue-based control variations. All of which run a lot of power. So first of all let's recognize the death of the 'casual' Type 1 player who can't afford moxen.

Let's not.  Black decks can cope with an opposing Chalice due to the diversity in casting costs of spells, and black decks can use Chalice in a similar manner to the other decks using Chalice.  Though Fish is blue, it's also a "budget" deck and a good one at that.  There's two perfectably viable choices right there, with Madness being a third choice.  In order to survive, Sligh will have to find a way around Chalice.  If it doesn't, well, then it doesn't.