IsoSligh

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

I'm surprised that no one has started a thread about sligh with all this discussion about isochron scepter. Personally, I think the card is a god-send for sligh, and can help improve some matchups. First, I'll present the decklist I'm tinkering with:

16 Mountain
1 Mox Ruby
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
-22 Mana Sources

4 Isochron Scepter
4 Price of Progress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Incinerate
2 Fireblast
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
-26 Burn Spells

4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Jackal Pup
4 Goblin Cadets
-12 Creatures


Ok, so on to some explanations:
1) No ankh of mishra: Quite frankly, I've never liked this card. Excellent in theory, ass in testing. unless you drop this early, it's usually just an overpriced shock. I play in a diverse metagame where ALL types of decks are present, meaning that the ankh is only usually good vs. 1/5 of the decks (control strategies). I find that Pyrostatic pillar is MUCH better. There isn't one instance where I wish I had ankh instead of pillar (except for the dragon matchup). Pillar is HUGE, as it shuts down combo, holds its own vs. aggro, and is a beating on control.

2) Fireblast Main: Without ankh in the deck, dropping lands freely means that fireblast is an awesome finisher (along with PoP). I've always been fond of this card, and in testing, it has won me several games.

3) No Black Vise or Fork main: Even though these cards are broken (imprinting fork anyone?), I simply cannot find room for them. While turn 1 black vise is devastating, many decks can get around it (long just kills you, wMUD drops it's hand). I prefer the 2 fireblasts, but they are easily transferable.

Cards to consider:

1) Shock: while it may not seem viable, it is worth some consideration, as chain lightning is a sorcery. There are manytimes you are in TD mode and TD a scepter followed by a chain lightning. It doesn't happen frequently, but enough that I'm considering replacing the chains with another instant.

2) Fire/Ice: With Isochron Scepter, FI becomes GREAT. You can kill off welders, hold off togs and dreadnoughts, AND draw! Seems pretty good, but it's drawback is pretty dramatic, as it's a 2 card combo in a deck with virtually no draw. Possibly a SB option.

3) Burn spells with a more diverse CC: With COTV become extremely popular, sligh NEEDS to adapt. This means that sligh needs about as many 2CC burn spells as 1CC ones. Maybe flame rift could be used.

4) Goblin Tinkerer (not sure on name)?: Again, sligh needs a foil for chalice that isn't 1CC in the off chance that the opponent drops a chalice whith no shaman on your side.

5) Barbarian Ring: With fireblast and the high density of burn spells in this deck, the ring seems like it could be useful. Sligh often stalls with the opponent at like 3-5 life. This card could be very useful, as it has the ability to kill the opponent when topdecked (ie, uncounterable).

So, why play this deck over goblins? Well,
1) Doesn't heavily rely on creatures. While this isn't relevant now, do realize that many people still play with anti-creature cards such as Moat. Also, a timely balance isn't as harmful.

2) More disruption. While gobbos can outrace Long time to time, it is a hard feat. With Isosligh, there is atleast the option of dropping a pyrostatic pillar. This point may not be valid after mirrodin becomes legal, as chalice rapes Long.

3) Better mid-late game. While I realize sligh shouldn't be in the mid-late game, it happens quite often. This is where Isochron Scepter really shines. It's basically a cursed Scroll on crack.

Anyways, I just wanted to start some discussion on the state of sligh. All other decks are adjusting, and sligh needs to change. Of all budget decks out there, sligh is the most vulnerable, yet it is the most played. I've always had a spot in my heart for the deck, as it was my first competitive deck. Lets try to make sligh atleast playable in the post-mirrodin environment. As always, all comments (and flames  ) are welcome.

-Bob

[hippie tourach]

First off, I think simply replacing Cursed Scroll with Scepter will not work. In fact, I tested it, and I found myself wishing it was Scroll when I had few cards in hand and got Scepter. I would also say that it being a 2-drop is bad, except that Chalice of the Void has disproved that. Actually, CotV is probably the reason that nobody has been thinking too much about Sligh recently...

In any case, the way you are going about this is more correct than just considering Scepter a better Scroll. The deck needs to be adapted for Scepter to work, so I think this is a good discussion to bring up.

Fire/Ice is probably the top choice right now. Its 2cc will be nice with CotV running around, and the Ice component actually becomes noticed with Scepter in there. Remember that you have to choose either Fire or Ice when you cast Scepter. But that shouldn't be hard if you have a feeling on the deck you're up against. I think this might deserve a maindeck spot (Chain's perhaps), but I don't know how viable the 'combo' is in actual play.

The deck does need a way to deal with Chalice at 2cc. Goblin Tinkerer is probably the best option. But can this actually take a maindeck spot when it's 1/2 for 2 mana and taps to destroy artifacts?

Question-Have you considered Blood Moon instead of Price of Progress? When it resolves it is often more of a win guarantee than PoP, it's better against fetchlands, and against monocolor decks it can be decently useful for Fireblast. And if Keeper has a Chalice for 1 down against you, their main option of Island-Cunning Wish-BEB is cut off. A Chaliced PoP is oh-so tempting, unfortunately it's another 2 card combo.

[Ferrismonk]

Since you're not running the Ankh, why don't you put some fetchlands in yourself?  It'd thin the deck down a little and you don't really need much more than 2 mana in play.  

-Travis-

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

@Hippie Tourach: First, while the scepter has definite disadvantages to scroll, I still think it is a better call. the 2 CC is definitely a problem, but it makes up for it by it's activation cost. Plus, it's almost a must counter for any deck. The ability to imprint anything from a bolt to a PoP is HUGE. In anycase, my testing shows that it is pretty good. As for F/I, it may replace the chain lightning (I was under the impression that you could imprint fire, but still use the ice, or fire, which I think is awesome). At worst it is 2 damage for 2, which isn't too shabby, seeing as how it gets around the mana blob that sligh is, and also OWNS weenie aggro (ie, other sligh decks, fish, plus takes out multiple welders). I'll test it in the chain spot and see how it goes. As for the bloodmoon issue, I think you may be right. If chalice's main goal is to slow down the game (for keeper), then that means sligh will inevitably play more games in the mid-late game. In this case, while PoP is pretty good, but blood moon is a game winner.

As for the artifact removal part, I think that instead of trying to find a solution, it's better to find a plethora of threats with a diverse CC. This means that Ball lightning could even be considered. In anycase, a HUGE change needs to happen.


Ferrismonk: The reason that I don't run fetches is that I run fireblast main. This requires that I play ATLEAST 15 lands, so I don't dick myself over. If I played with vise + fork over the 2 blasts, then fetches would be more than viable.

[waSP]

With Chalice coming into the format you may want to consider some slightly more expensive threats to complement your deck.  Carbonize may turn out to be very good.  If you run a couple of off color moxen it may turn out to be about equal to incinerate  in power.  It would also improve how you run against masticore.  It would permenantly deal with Karn's (with another burn spell).  Do you need all 16 Mountains, or could you fit the extra moxen?  It would help with the mana cost problem, giving you access to higher range spells.  

Ball Lightning is not bad, despite what people claim.  It changes the way your opponent plays, an important thing.  6 damage from one spell is devastating, so they will refuse to get hit by it twice.  You can control the tempo of the game and burn them out at the end of their turns.  I'm just wondering if people have played with their Balls (Lightning) recently.

[Crater Hellion]

Post-Chalice, how does meltdown not kick ass?

[Godder]

Carbonize? I think Urza's Rage is much better than Carbonize, personally. Not counterable, and something to do late game!

[hippie tourach]

Quote (Crater Hellion @ Oct. 08 2003,18:29)Post-Chalice, how does meltdown not kick ass?

Isn't its converted mana cost 1?

Clown: I'm pretty sure you can't choose Fire/Ice each time you use Scepter. See page 1 of "Optimizing Keeper post Mirrodin" in this forum.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Well, honestly, if I were to run off-color moxes and the lotus, the FIRST spell I would think about is browbeat. About the only it's not played is because of CC. Now, with chalice in the picture, and possibly the addition of moxes, it may be a worthy addition. It would give sligh a pretty decent late game, as often, they'll let you draw 3 (assuming it is late game and they are at 3-6 life). Carbonize is not a bad idea, but I was aiming for a 2CC spell, maybe along the lines of flame rift? I think that the sligh "curve should look something like:

16-18 1CC spells
12-16 2CC spells
4-6 3CC Spells

that way, chalice isn't AS damaging as it should be. Keepr decks will be reluctant to set chalice at 2 because their most broken spells are of that CC...Walk, Tutor, Balance, Drain, F/I. This means that sligh decks need to pack POTENT 2CC spells to punish decks that drop chalice for 1.

[Jacob Orlove]

Quote I was under the impression that you could imprint fire, but still use the ice, or fire, which I think is awesome

If you imprint fire/ice, you choose which half to use each time you activate the scepter.

The problem with running too many expensive spells is that Mana Drain becomes a huge threat. You really don't want control draining into a huge decree. Speaking of decree, aren't you worried now that Keeper runs a lot of 1/1s as its win condition? That would seem to give them an edge against your pups and cadets.

[wuaffiliate]

im bored, here is what i turned sligh into. it has disruption and doesnt die to chalice, infact it can use it and not he destroyed its pretty even between 1 and 2 cc much like sui but abit more balanced.

i was bored at work a few days ago and just threw this together, it may work and it may not. but its deffinately worth a look at.

core is there as a place holder for a 3-4cc threat that actually has an impact on the game.

@ maury, pop ends game faster than moon, under moon they can just use their basic island and win or what not. i like moon+pop its great synergy and works damn well.

//NAME: RedHeat.dec
        4 gorilla shaman
        4 jackal pup
        2 masticore
        4 price of progress
        4 chalice of the void
        4 lightning bolt
        4 fire/ice
        4 incinerate
        3 isochron scepter
        1 fork
        1 wheel of fortune
        4 mishra's factory
        4 wasteland
        1 strip mine
        1 mox ruby
        1 black lotus
        1 lotus petal
        1 sol ring
        12 Mountain
SB:  3 rack and ruin
SB:  3 blood moon
SB:  3 meltdown
SB:  3 tormod's Crypt
SB:  3 powder keg

just thought i would toss that into the mix of ideas.\n\n

[Mellow D]

Quote (hippie tourach @ Oct. 08 2003,19:26)

Quote (Crater Hellion @ Oct. 08 2003,18:29)Post-Chalice, how does meltdown not kick ass?

Isn't its converted mana cost 1?

Clown: I'm pretty sure you can't choose Fire/Ice each time you use Scepter. See page 1 of "Optimizing Keeper post Mirrodin" in this forum.

Here we go again.  The X in Meltdown's casting cost is 0 only when not on the stack.  If it is on the stack, then it will take on whatever you put into it.  Meaning to say, you can maneuver around Chalice at any Meltdown value, and it will always kill Chalice no matter how many counters are on it (barring any counterspells by the opponent of course).

@Clown:  Since this build runs more lands, I think that Crash and Pulverize could be considered as SB options for Chalice foils.  Tinkerer takes at least a turn, does he not?\n\n

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

I'm glad to see people contributing to this thread...that out of the way, here are a few thoughts:

1) After playtesting a bit, I really like F/I main. It's almost NEVER a dead card. 2 damage to an opponent sucks ass, but the fact that you can kill multiple creatures makes it great. This is not to mention that it's AMAZING with the scepter. When you have a cantripped Icy everyturn against tog or mask, life is great.

2) Mana Drain is a big concern, and I don't think anything can be done about it. Seriously. Such is the cost of reducing the efficiency of the deck. Anytime you run a shitload of 2-3CC spells, Mana drain becomes dangerous. Luckily, it's not the end of the world. There really isn't much I'm afraid of. Now with keeper running less and less creature removal and the like, only a huge decree or trenches will save them, and F/I is awesome here, ESPECIALLY if you can force through the scepter.

3) Until something good comes out, I'm content on relying on the monkey as my removal of Chalice. I'm currently testing MANY builds of sligh where the mana curve is MUCH more diverse (like I described earlier). If a deck drops chalice at 1, I still have bombs like PoP, Scepter, F/I, and even incinerate to handle the situation. If they set it at 2, my shaman gets through. It does hurt sligh, but much less so if you were to play, say, ankh sligh. I just think that by throwing in sub-optimal artifact removal, the deck looses alot of it's power.

Here's a rough sketch of what I'm testing:

14 Mountain
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
4 Moxes
-24 Mana Sources

4 Bolts
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Jackal Pup
-12 1CC Spells

4 Isochron Scepter
4 F/I
4 Incinerate
4 PoP
-16 2CC Spells

4 Browbeat
4 Ball Lightning
-8 3CC Spells

So there's the rough sketch. with only 12 1CC spells, sligh isn't hurt nearly as much. The mana base is a bit shaky (especially with ball lightning) but it has been working so far. the moxes are there to cope with isochron scepter, random burn spells and browbeat. I dropped pillars because quite frankly, combo WILL be dead (atleast long) post mirrodin, plus there's always a SB. The ball lightnings have been golden, seeing as how decks are running less and less critter removal. The browbeats are kinda iffy. I'm testing 4, but I think I'll eventually drop 1 or 2. They were kinda clunky in real life.

Anyways, this deck is alot slower and more focused on mid-late game, where it should be somewhat decent. It's not sligh-esque, but I think it's inevitable. Better to be prepared than to try and outrace an opponent playing chalice @ 1. I find it VERY amusing however, that I'm already putting moxes and lotus in the deck. The reason I started this thread was to keep sligh, a BUDGET deck, from dying.

I really feel that sligh needs to diversify it's threats instead of finding an answer to chalice. I really like wuaffiliate's idea (maybe Dandan's?) about the factories. Not only does it get around Chalice, but it does it VERY well. It forces keeper to find wastelands to deal with it.

[dandan]

Factories have got better and better recently. Chalice stopping 1cc makes a 0cc threat that can be used to cast 1R spells pretty good.

Rakso's jibes about Chalice forcing Sligh to do bad things like running Factories was probably aimed in my direction but many a true word has been spoken in jest.

However even with Pillars, Ankhs and Factories I don't view Sligh as viable in the current metagame. Chalice for 1 stops/slows your early assault and the burn/Ankhs do nothing significant if you have no early presure.

Regarding the point of this thread, while Sceptres are sexy I don't think they help you at all vs MUD, Long or Keeper (Wishes for an answer) and are not clearly better than the alternatives vs Hulk so I can't see the direction you are heading in. I think they are better than Cursed Scrolls (too slow) but Pillars in the conditional burn slot at least gives you a shot vs combo.

[kirdape3]

A deck with Browbeat and Ball Lightning is just waiting to get mashed by a Mana Drain - they'll Drain into a mainphase Decree for Angels on you for their own fun and sick general amusement.  And that kills you on the spot.

I just don't see either the good red deck (Goblins) or the bad red deck (Ankh Sligh) doing anything when everybody and their brother can bring four Chalices to the table and expect to autowin just on tempo.

[Razor]

Generally people here are reacting to Challice by tweaking their Aggro decks with more diverse mana curves.  However, let me point out that diverse casting curves unequivocally exclude Sligh plain and simple.  Challice kills Sligh; however, Burn may yet be resurrected.  Mox Monkey, Heretics and Vandals are more important now than ever especially because they can kill Challice.

The problem with diverse mana curves has always been Mana Drain.  Challice/Keg wreck the bottom of the curve.  Mana Drain wrecks the middle and top of the curve.

Post Mirrodin until Drain gets the restriction it deserves both  Combo (non-Dragon) and Aggro decks are in big trouble while Keeper decks will reign.

Varied mana curves are more fun anyways.  I still pray for the restriction of Mana Drain.

[hippie tourach]

The last decklist might be a bit extreme. Just how badly does Chalice hurt you if you run 16-20 1cc spells? First game you can drop Monkey if you win the roll, and if they win they won't go Chalice for 1 unless they know you're playing Sligh.

After SB Sligh will have 8 artifact removal to pull from.

So I think anyone with Sligh or another budget deck has to be careful not to overreact to Chalice and castrate the efficiency of their deck.

[waSP]

My real purpose for reviving this thread is to start an actual discussion of a new sligh deck.  Sligh needs to change, and it'll need to be a little different than what is accepted.

4 Isochron's seemed to be 1 too many in testing.  I rarely wanted to see more than 1 early, while i developed my mana base.

Chrome Mox is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for this deck.  It gives it a better early game and you can fix your curve to, GASP, include 3 casting cost cards.

Here's the current build I'm testing, with the new creature base and an adjusted burn base.

Mana
        4 Great Furnace
        4 Wasteland
        3 Bloodstained Mire
        2 Mountain
        1 Volcanic Island
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Ruby
        4 Chrome Mox
Burn
        4 Incinerate
        4 Lightning Bolt
        4 Price of Progress
        4 Shrapnel Blast
        4 Fire/Ice
Card Advantage
        3 Isochron Scepter
        1 Wheel of Fortune
Creatures
        4 Slith Firewalker
        4 Gorilla Shaman
        3 Grim Lavamancer
        2 Ball Lightning
Sideboard
        4 Scald
        4 Pyrostatic Pillar
        4 Rack and Ruin
        3 Tormod's Crypt

The Shrapnel Blasts have been incredible, giving the deck the punch it needs.

I've been thinking about replacing the Ball Lightnings with Browbeats or another card, although I'm not sure what yet (if Browbeat is as bad as its been in the past).

Slith Firewalker is the new Jackal Pup.  With the acceleration in this deck, that thing gets big huge.  Wastelands, serving as pseudo time walks, make it more ridiculous.  The card makes me want to play Ponza.

4 Fire/Ice is seeming like 1 or 2 too many.  I've been drawing them a little too often when my opponent is at 3.

There is the single Volcanic because it may provide random wins against Mask and you'd always rather have it destroyed than your Great Furnaces.

What are you thoughts about this new IsoSligh, equipped with the speed to possibly compete.\n\n

[Matt The Great]

Mana Crypt seems iffy, as it can only be used with Scepter and Wheel (and I guess Shaman). The same is true of Sol Ring, but Sol Ring won't kill you. I guess you have eight ways of getting rid of it though...

Where's Lotus Petal? It would seem ideal.

Do you ever have trouble casting Ball Lightning? There's an awful lot of colorless sources.

[waSP]

I don't tend to have trouble casting the Ball Lightning, moreover I generally don't usually have to.  I'd like to fit another creature at this slot, but more testing is needed before I know what'll be good here.  The 5 Strips serve as Time Walks as nearly all decks utilize non-basics.

I'm wondering if something janky like Turf Wound (Solfatara if you're cool) or Urza's Bauble would work in here to fix consistency.  The Bauble seems like it could work, fixing mana and getting you deeper into your deck for free.  That could raise consistency issues for a deck trying to unload its hand early.  Maybe Overmaster might help on resolving key spells (like PoP against Keeper).

I really want a STRONG creature to go along with the Slith Firewalker.  I almost consider Call of the Herd, but that might hurt the mana base a little too much, making Shrapnel Blast weaker (and it has bad synergy with Chrome Mox).

I'm starting to consider Viashino Sandstalker, as it is a fairly quick threat.  Although that would give me much reason to ph34r drains.  Maybe Keldon Vandals might be a little techy, although I'd hate to risk nuking one of my own artifacts, as I run so many.

Lotus Petal is bad because you want to get up to 4 mana on the board right away, so you can start abusing the Scepter and casting the more expensive stuff.

The coolest play you can make with this deck is a first turn Scepter on Shrapnel Blast.  A 4 turn clock is really cool.

I kind of want to fit a Fireblast as a last gasp kill method.  But that would require me to drop the Volcanic and Mires for Mountains.  I like the jankiness of a single Volcanic, fetchable when necessary.

Any of you have thoughts about Grim Lavamancer, I saw him flipping through some old cards from my old R/G deck.  Maybe running 2 copies would be useful (in all purpose burn slots, replacing a Fire/Ice and something else).\n\n

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

I do like the deck, but I think that the firewalker is a bit too janky. I LOVE the idea of viashino sandstalker, as that was one of my favorite creatures EVAR. I question your decision to include 4 chrome mox, as most of the time, I'd rather be casting spells than pitching them. However, this is speculation, and I'll have to test for myself. I agree that sligh really needs a strong early creature to replace jackal pup, as a first turn pup isn't cutting it anymore.

In recent testing, it seems like a SRB version of sligh is better than trying to find an efficient creature.

[Matt The Great]

Quote The coolest play you can make with this deck is a first turn Scepter on Shrapnel Blast.  A 4 turn clock is really cool.

You are aware that you still have to sacrifice an artifact each time you use a Scepter'd Blast, right?

[The Blob]

I'm not so sure about that, I'm basing this off the rulings for Fork

Isochron Scepter - 2
Artifact (U)
Imprint - When Isochron Scepter comes into play, you may remove an instant card with converted mana cost 2 or less in your hand from the game. (The removed card is imprinted on this artifact.)
2, T: You may copy the imprinted instant card and play the copy without paying its mana cost.

Shrapnel Blast - 1R
Instant - Uncommon
As an additional cost to play Shrapnel Blast, sacrifice an artifact.
Sharpnel Blast deals 5 damage to target creature or player.

Fork

Color= Red  Type= Instant  Cost= RR A®/B®/U®/R®  
Text (RV+errata): Put a copy of target instant or sorcery spell onto the stack, except that it copies Fork's color and you may choose new targets for the copy. [Oracle 2001/08/24]

Note - Also see Copying Objects, Rule 503. There are enough important rules there that they are worth reading first.
  You need not (and may not) pay any additional mana or other costs (like sacrifices) to use the spell which is Forked. You get control over a complete copy but can change nothing except the targets. [Duelist Magazine #11, Page 57]

[Nova]

The difference between fork and scepter is "put" versus "play".

Because you have to "play" the copy off scepter you also have to pay all additional costs.  From the Mirrdon FAQ:

Quote Isochron Scepter

Artifact
Imprint -- When Isochron Scepter comes into play, you may remove an instant card with converted mana cost 2 or less in your hand from the game. (The removed card is imprinted on this artifact.)
, : You may copy the imprinted instant card and play the copy without paying its mana cost.

[...]

You don't pay the spell's mana cost. If the spell has X in its mana cost, X is 0. You do pay any additional costs for that spell. You can't use any alternative costs.

[...]

Edit: I accidentally posted almost the entire Mirrodin FAQ.  I don't think anyone wants to see all of that \n\n

[Vegeta2711]

Or we could just look up the Scepter rulings...

Quote You do not pay the spell's mana cost and any X in that cost is zero. You do still pay any additional costs that might apply, and may pay any optional costs such as Kicker or Buyback that apply. [Mirrodin FAQ 2003/10/01] [WotC Rules Team 2003/10/06]

[Matt The Great]

Or you could just assume I'm always right. It's not as accurate, but it's close and saves a lot of time!

[kirdape3]

You do realize that now MUD is almost an autoloss - you go to get around Chalice and walk right into Sphere and Tangle Wire and Smokestack Oh My!.  Same with Keeper - you get around Chalice but walk into a Mana Drain.

Efforts to diversify the mana curve of a deck that would normally have a line at 1 mana opens you up terribly to the rest of the deck that the hoser would be printed in.

[Pimpz0r]

While running a full compliment of Chrome Moxen might not be a good idea with these builds, offsetting the card loss to it with something (maybe even Browbeat) may work.  Just a thought.

[waSP]

Wow, Kirdape, I played some games against Mud today, and I won about 2/3 of them pre-sideboard.  You are still trying to live in the past, aren't you.  I'm confident in the burn complement, but I'm trying to optimize the creatures now.  I'm going to cut 2 Ball Lightning and Fork for Grim Lavamancers. (I'll adjust my list on page 1)

What does everyone think about Urza's Bauble.  It is useful with Shrapnel Blast and gives you essentially 56 cards in your deck.  I 'm not sure if that's desirable or not, but I'd like to hear the opinions of some more experienced Sligh players.  It also has synergy with the Lavamancers.

[Matt The Great]

I have my doubts about Bauble, because you really want to sac it to its own ability. It might prove hard to resist the temptation to cantrip, but if you're not cantripping it, it's just awful.