Article -- Workshop and CHalice philosophy

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Quote Anyway, to explain the point in case, is that by the looks of it, Chalice is going to be in EVERY deck.

I'm not that sure Chalice would be proposed to be put in every deck if
a) it wasn't hyped as much as it is
and b)0 CC Combo wasn't around/as good.
For Chalice lets wait and see what it actually does, especially if Long is killed as I strongly hope. If there is no deck around where you actually need Chalice to have a chance beating it, it will probably not be played as much.
For example, do you really want to replace Null Rod with Chalice in Sui if you expect a metagame of Control, Dragon or Workshops? For 0 it allows your opponent to play Moxen until you have found your Chalice (making it worse at mana denial) and at a higher CC it actually hurts you as much as it will hurt the opposing deck. The same is true against Workshop decks, Null Rod is a lot better, as you can't just win by mulliganing into turn 1 Chalice for 0 (those decks function without artifact mana, while going to 5 cards just to get that Chalice will only be good against Long). At the worst, it's like everyone gets a CoP:Red against Sligh, and I see a lot of 2 CC options through which Sligh might actually be able to not autoscoop against Chalice 1 without playing artifact-removal besides Gorilla Shaman.
After Long is killed, Chalice will probably be good in two decktypes MD (Keeper and Workshop-locks) and in a few SB (TNT, Madness). Let the turn1 combo die down and lets see how strong Chalice will actually get in other decks. If it's a 3-4 of everywhere kill it, but don't do that beforehand.

In addition I have actually been convinced to wait how strong Workshop-prison will actually get, right now we MIGHT actually still be able to deal with it. NeoLong on the other hand posts good results in my testing so far even against Chalice post SB if not backed up by a massive phalanx of disruption. That IS a problem and I don't see WMud to be as brutal right now. So wait and see seems to be a practial train of action here.\n\n

[dicemanX]

Quote That Sligh deck you propose, diceman, would still roll over to Chalice MUD. Remember they have more control than just Chalice... Tangle Wire is a big problem, and Sphere makes those high cc answers even harder to reach. Even with a higher land count, it's going to be a lucky chance if you get 5 permanents into play before a total lock.

I'm not proposing that my suggestions will swing the balance in Sligh's favor. I'm suggesting a fighting chance. They're not pulling Tangle Wires, Spheres and Smokestack consistently, so all Sligh needs is to drop a land, pay a mana, sac two lands and nuke every damn artifact in play. Then bolt that Welder. Is it foolproof? No. But it's at least putting up a fight, not just whining about it (comment not directed at you personally).

[LemanRuss]

I don't think that restrictions must be done only when a deck becomes over-dominant. If we look closer at the problem, it becomes obvious that since WotC continues to print useful (not necessary broken cards) for the type 1, decks continue to become more and more strong, as the card choice becomes bigger. Even if Chalice is restricted, MUD could play one of this. Broken? No, of course, but it is nevertheless stronger than the pre-Mirrodin metagame. All deck can use the new cards ? Yes, but if they do so, it means they become more and more powerful, more and more able to do broken things faster. Yes, broken things happen. But above a threshold, luck just becomes more important that strategy and the metagame becomes narrower, as we are going to see more often “oh, you played the card X first, I lost… Let’s play the revenge!” That is why cards that were not necessary broken in the past must be periodically restricted. That is what I would restrict if I were the DCI:

- Chalice of the Void: no need to speculate, this card is just going to make the strongest decks even stronger and will make the metagame even more narrow. Just for this, it must be restricted (I don’t like banning cards in type I).

- Mishra’s Workshop: I don’t want to hear that this card must not be restricted just because it is too much expensive to buy. We must consider theoretical metagames to decide if we must restrict this card or no. The true question is: will the restriction of this card will increase the creativeness of deckuilders and make a more diverse metagame ? If the answer is yes, let’s ask for its restriction.

- Lion’s Eye Diamond: of course, if Chalice is restricted or banned, Long has no need to worry; except if his key card is restricted.

- Mox Chrome: Academy decks are stronger even if they are allowed to use only one of these. A mox is a mox, even if it is useless in non-combo decks.

- Spoils of the Vault: same reasons. A new tutor at 1cc cannot remain unrestricted.

My opinions about other cards than Workshop and Chalice might appear to be off-topic, but they are just here to illustrate my point of view about the restriction of Chalice AND Mishra’s Workshop: the metagame will be just healthier without these two cards. I understand the feels of the ones who just acquired their 4 Workshops… But again, this is a theoretical point of view about what would be the best metagame.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Quote Posted: Oct. 09 2003,20:26



Well, like always, it looks like the crying session has begun. I know some people have expressed their opinions and articulated them well, but there are also many people who are just whining.

It seems like whining has become an integral part of Type 1. X deck is designed = whining. X card is un-restricted = whining. X card is restricted = whining. X card is printed = whining. Please, stop. The release of a new set is not your cue to cry about X card.

I DO NOT want to have the last 18 months of progress undone. Type 1 has come a long way in this time. There are many powerful, viable decks available. Long was looking like it was going to be a problem, but things have changed. We need to let the metagame unfold, if something proves to ACTUALLY BE A PROBLEM, then something needs to be done. Don't SPECULATE.

Berserk anyone?

Just saw that today. THANKS. That's about the clearest statement that was made. And that's exactly the feeling I get when listening to these boards atm. I AM playing in Dülmen (lots of Workshops owned by players), I don't have Workshops and I hate playing against Prison. I SAY LET THEM BRING IT ON, anyway. If Chalice MUD becomes dominating, I'll be one of the guys who'll have to live with meeting prison every 2nd round. Until the deck really dominates, let it alone. We'll know how good Chalice really is 3 months from now (though it will be heavily overplayed in between, as Long demands it to be in everybodys sb).\n\n

[Toad]

Quote (Akuma (gio) @ Oct. 09 2003,23:26)It seems like whining has become an integral part of Type 1. X deck is designed = whining. X card is un-restricted = whining. X card is restricted = whining. X card is printed = whining. Please, stop. The release of a new set is not your cue to cry about X card.

I DO NOT want to have the last 18 months of progress undone. Type 1 has come a long way in this time. There are many powerful, viable decks available. Long was looking like it was going to be a problem, but things have changed. We need to let the metagame unfold, if something proves to ACTUALLY BE A PROBLEM, then something needs to be done. Don't SPECULATE.

Amen to that.

Even with Chalice of the Void, Mishra's Workshop is not a broken card. It's like Force of Will, it's a card that holds the format together. Restrict Mishra's Workshop, and say welcome to blue-based heavy control decks. Prison decks are the only one that can prevent Keeper from being dominant with Chalice of the Void and other new toys. This last year as been one of the most exciting T1 has known since its creation. A lot of new decks have emerged. Rector Trix, Tendrils, Long, Stax, MUD, Hulk Smash, Welder MUD, Madness, Bazaar Dragon, etc... All those decks are new and can win tourneys. Don't destroy all the work that has been done so far.

Chalice punishes speed and efficiency. In two words, Chalice punishes budget decks. And then ? T1 is defined by its brokeness and its hosers. Null Rod hoses those who use mana artifacts, ie non budget decks. Blood Moon and Back to Basics hoses those who use non basic lands, ie "non budget" decks. Energy Flux hoses those who play brown decks, ie non budget decks. Arcane Lab hoses those who play Long.dec, ie a non budget deck. Budget players have always had great hosers to face the top fully powered decks. I've never heard a non budget player complaining about all those cards. This is Type One. When I play Keeper, I know I'll be hated out. I hate when Sligh drops a turn 2 Scald, so maybe I should stop playing and start whining and ask the DCI for Scald restriction ? That's a risk I'm willing to take when I play it. If I don't want to take it, I use another deck. Period. Now for probably the first time in Magic's history non budget players get a great hoser. And then what happen? The budget players, those who have hated them out with their own hosers, start complaining. Let's be serious please... Some are whining : "Chalice for 1 hoses my Sligh deck". WTF ? I can't even remember the last time Sligh has won a serious tourney. Maindeck some 2CC artifact hate, and just stfu. Players who will win tournaments won't be those with the greatest playskills, but those who built the right metagame deck with the proper sideboard. The Netdeck Era, when the masses should just watch the net for decklists, is over. Now people will have to know how to build a deck in order to win, and this is a shift I really appreciate, because it somehow changes the deal.

Stop whining, start deckbuilding.

Matthieu\n\n

[Bastian]

Quote Chalice punishes speed and efficiency. In two words, Chalice punishes budget decks. And then ? T1 is defined by its brokeness and its hosers. Null Rod hoses those who use mana artifacts, ie non budget decks. Blood Moon and Back to Basics hoses those who use non basic lands, ie "non budget" decks. Energy Flux hoses those who play brown decks, ie non budget decks. Arcane Lab hoses those who play Long.dec, ie a non budget deck. Budget players have always had great hosers to face the top fully powered decks.

No one's asking for the restriction of Workshop. At least I'm not (even though the card's on the merge of being degenerate). Now Chalice is. A single card that shuts down any number of decks is too good. There are answers to the chalice, yes, but most of them pass through adding redundant cards to the deck which isn't making the deck more original or actually improving it. It's not adding a card or two or three to the deck that's going to make it any better vs Chalice. You need to change an entire decklist, you need to make the deck more redundant to be able to fight Chalice.

You can use Back to Basics/Blood Moon to hose some decks, Null Rod to fight some others but these cards alone never made any deck unviable. Chalice of the Void does. Comparing Chalice of the Void to a color specific hoser like Scald is irrelevant since both cards are unequally powerful. Chalice can wreck just about anything, Scald is color specific and demands the use of red in the deck.

Another thing is that even though budget decks have always had great hosers to fight powered decks powered decks always took the upper hand. Compare the number of times you see a fully powered deck making top 8 compared to the ammount of times you see non-powered decks making the same appearances. Even though there are hosers for powered decks available to budget players powered decks like the ones currently existing this hasn't made the decks strictly worse than they ever were, nor any less played.

Chalice of the Void can do that, not to mention it helps players for having Workshops or Moxes, etc in their deck. Chalice helps power players more than it helps budget ones, so there's really no comparison in that either...

Everyone likes to talk about reviving the format, and making it inovative. Just what kind of inovations is there space for when , every deck is forced to adapt to a single card? Drawing less attention of newer players by leveling up the entrance fee to the format doesn't help the idea of type 1 being an elite format for those who have the right cards or not, not to mention it leaves it only available to just the few ones who have them.

If this is ok by some you then by all means continue to defend the card, if not, then think that even though whining can be quite annoying, if some people are doing it, they're doing it for a reason.

I'd rather have it restricted it... perhaps even banned, but I'll sit and wait to see post-Mirrodin decks in action. But remember to think why some of us dislike the course of things the way it is.

[K-Run]

Quote Just what kind of inovations is there space for when , every deck is forced to adapt to a single card?

We're only offended by this because the card is new. Old staples like Mana Drain have the exact same effect except that they were there before (some of) us.

[Toad]

Quote (Bastian @ Oct. 10 2003,15:42)Everyone likes to talk about reviving the format, and making it inovative. Just what kind of inovations is there space for when , every deck is forced to adapt to a single card?

Are you implying Mana Drain should be restricted or even banned ? Because every deck is forced to adapt to that single card.

 

Quote You need to change an entire decklist, you need to make the deck more redundant to be able to fight Chalice.

As I've said before : "Stop whining, start deckbuilding". Every colour HAS solutions to Chalice of the Void. Decks will just have to evolve to take this new threat into account. Wait for 2 months, and see how the metagame fixes itself.

[K-Run]

Quote Are you implying Mana Drain should be restricted or even banned ? Because every deck is forced to adapt to that single card.

I, for one, wouldn't mind at all if Mana Drain was restricted. I think that might even be what saves T1, but this is my opinion. That card reduces so much the viable card pool, it's incredible. As for it's role as a deterrent to play bad cards, Counterspell and other cheap removal spells still punish that at a more reasonable level.

Quote As I've said before : "Stop whining, start deckbuilding". Every colour HAS solutions to Chalice of the Void. Decks will just have to evolve to take this new threat into account. Wait for 2 months, and see how the metagame fixes itself.

I totally agree. The only way I can see Chalice being harmful is when a deck can play it at any cost (0, 2, 4 or 6) too fast. The irregular Mox boost in speed is alright for me but when you add to that 4 Workshops, it feels just plain wrong. Note that this is my main concern about Workshop : it acts like Moxes 5-8, thus the dramatically increased chances of opening hand brokeness.

Instead of restricting a card that is only broken with broken mana acceleration, I'd rather restrict the broken mana acceleration. That way, not only do you prevent the might-be-broken card (Chalice) from becoming broken, but you also slow down the entire format, something it needs badly.

To resume, I'd restrict the following cards :

Lion's Eye Diamond
Chrome Mox
Mishra's Workshop
Mana Drain
Dark Ritual
Intuition

[Bastian]

Perhaps I haven't made myself clear... Masticore, Powder Keg, Force of Will, Mana Drain, Back to Basics or Blood Moon, to name some of the most popular don't shut entire decks alone like Chalice of the Void can do, not to mention it can fit just about any deck.

Just because I have to adapt a certain strategy because of Mana Drain and Force of Will doesn't mean the cards made that unviable. Chalice of the Void alone can turn the game into a game of who draws it first. The moment a single card alone can determine the outcome of entire games just by who plays it first or who doesn't play it at all I'd say it's a pretty format distorting card.

Don't understimate the power of COTV by comparing it to counterspells or enchantments that single handendly won't fit into just about any deck, nor don't shut down entire decks alone. Having a card that makes good decks far better, on the verge of becoming degenerate, is not the kind of thing that's going to bring inovation to type 1.

[LemanRuss]

Quote Are you implying Mana Drain should be restricted or even banned ? Because every deck is forced to adapt to that single card.

We cannot compare. Sligh, for exemple, don't have to adapt that card: he needs a tight mana curve anyway to be quick enough to have a chance against the high brokeness; I am not sure that this deck is gonna play Ball Lightning even if Mana drain is restricted. Mana drain is not HOSING Sligh even if this deck must be aware of this card. Against the Chalice, Sligh cannot "deckbuild", he is just dead. To fight Chalice, he must pack in some cards that make the deck far too slow. Of course, sligh is just an exemple. Oh, just another thing: Mana drain is blue, and requires two colored manas to be cast. If the Chalice was costing only white, green or even black mana, I dont think it would be such a game breaker. Is strengh is that it is colorless.

Some of you are talking about Null Rod, Blood Moon, etc., but why all the existing decks are not currently maindecking these cards ? Some do, right. But why not all of them ? I you can answer this question, you can answer what is the difference between Chalice and all these cards. Maindecking the Chalice will be mandatory for top tier decks, because it is a too much POLYVALENT hoser. Of course it is not as good as Blood moon or Null rod can be against deck wich are entirely hosed by Blood moon or Null rod. But that does not mean it is not more broken.

I don't want to play into a 'zombie' metagame and wait three months until the DCI finally decices to restrict the card, three months during which I a am going to make good results in tournaments just because my opponents have not metagamed against Chalice yet. I feel just like Oscar: this card is gonna make type one sooooo boring. If you don't believe me, you will see by yourselves.

I am not whining just for pleasure, and have never done it before (even when GAT was dominating).

Oh, and no one replied concerning my arguments concerning the card pool and brokeness evolution.

[K-Run]

Quote (Bastian @ Oct. 10 2003,10:35)Perhaps I haven't made myself clear... Masticore, Powder Keg, Force of Will, Mana Drain, Back to Basics or Blood Moon, to name some of the most popular don't shut entire decks alone like Chalice of the Void can do, not to mention it can fit just about any deck.

What entire decks are you talking about? Sligh? What are the other ones?

B2B and Blood Moon used to kill Keeper. It adapted.

Also, what decks are going to use CotV? So far, I've heard Keeper, MUD and Suicide. What else?

Quote Having a card that makes good decks far better, on the verge of becoming degenerate, is not the kind of thing that's going to bring inovation to type 1.

Exactly. That's why we have to look at those decks and restrict cards in them or otherwise we'll have to restrict all the new stong artifacts that will be printed in the future.

Leman Russ :

Quote To fight Chalice, he [Sligh] must pack in some cards that make the deck far too slow. Of course, sligh is just an exemple.

Sligh is ALREADY too slow. Why don't we slow down the decks that are too fast instead? Also, I would like to see another example : everybody's using Sligh.

Quote Some of you are talking about Null Rod, Blood Moon, etc., but why all the existing decks are not currently maindecking these cards ? Some do, right. But why not all of them ? I you can answer this question, you can answer what is the difference between Chalice and all these cards. Maindecking the Chalice will be mandatory for top tier decks, because it is a too much POLYVALENT hoser. Of course it is not as good as Blood moon or Null rod can be against deck wich are entirely hosed by Blood moon or Null rod. But that does not mean it is not more broken.

Because they're either 1) not fast enough 2) easily dealt with 3) not that powerful anymore because people adapted to them. I don't think *every* deck will be using CotV maindeck. I think most people will try it, but eventually they'll come back to more specific, effective hosers, probably because of the reasons aforementioned.

Quote I feel just like Oscar: this card is gonna make type one sooooo boring.

The top 8 games are already boring and ridiculous, thx to the high speed of the format.\n\n

[Bastian]

Quote What entire decks are you talking about? Sligh? What are the other ones?

Sligh, Suicide Black, Hulk Smash... to mention a few. Long.dec won't be missed and just about any other deck can be easily wrecked with a COTV set at the right number of counters.

Quote Exactly. That's why we have to look at those decks and restrict cards in them or otherwise we'll have to restrict all the new stong artifacts that will be printed in the future.

Any suggestions then, besides COTV?

Quote The top 8 games are already boring and ridiculous, thx to the high speed of the format.

I assume that, once again, you're not satisfied with the state of the format and quite possibly would have your own thoughts to what it should go or not so as to make the format balanced again, right? If not COTV then what? Because the format has been the way it is for some months and it seems that other than those decks that usually make top 8 no others managed to adapt.\n\n

[LemanRuss]

Quote The top 8 games are already boring and ridiculous, thx to the high speed of the format.

I totally agree with you on this point, and I previously forgot to say it would not be that bad if they restrict cards like Mana drain or Dark ritual. But if they start to do so, other cards need restriction before.



Other exemple of decks hosed (even partially) by COTV other than Sligh: Hulksmash, Rector...

[jpmeyer]

Chalice is just the rude awakening to budget players that they should have noticed 9 months ago.  Their decks weren't viable then when they had to play against GAT and TnT either.  I don't see how restricting Chalice would do anything different.  Even in these last couple months before Chalice existed I would pump the fist if I had to play against Suicide with Mud or Sligh with Tog.

People also need to remember too, that while WotC takes into account the fact that decks should not be overly expensive to build in Extended and upward, they ignore this concept with Type 1.  This is official policy because there really is no way to balance it.

[Bastian]

Quote Chalice is just the rude awakening to budget players that they should have noticed 9 months ago.  Their decks weren't viable then when they had to play against GAT and TnT either.  

You're totally right, and I've been aware of that mostly when playing vs TNT. I can pull a win vs many decks by playing some budget decks, but vs TNT I have the hardest time unless I'd be playing something equally powerful.

Quote People also need to remember too, that while WotC takes into account the fact that decks should not be overly expensive to build in Extended and upward, they ignore this concept with Type 1.  This is official policy because there really is no way to balance it.

Then, next time people start saying this is a format made for mostly the oldest players or those who have or can afford the power cards, if they say that this is the format with the highest entry fee or if Mark Rosewater happens to write an article showing off some power cards and saying just how much their combined price is, don't bother to write a rebutal article about saying how type 1 can be accessible to budget players, because even though there are less powered metagames, it's not those we have in mind when we deckbuild or write about type 1.

What we have in mind is Keeper, MUD, Hulk Smash, Long.dec and other fully powered decks. It's not the sligh or suicide black some player may be carrying.

I think that JP is actually quite right, although it should matter even for the powered players that Chalice will ruin the format by turning already tier 1 decks into degenerate ones much like Gush acted in Gro-a-tog.

Remember this from now on, according to the words of JP: type 1 is sealed to none other than those who can afford it. Either live with it or give up on it.

[Bastian]

What have we learned from cards like Necropotence, Ancestral Recall and Fact or Fiction? That card advantage is the most important resource in this game. If you have it you increase the odds of getting what you need to win and foil your opponent's plays.

If Ancestral Recall would be unrestricted it would turn combo decks into even more degenerate things, thus killing player interaction.

[K-Run]

A restricted Workshop would definitely weaken the power of Chalice against most decks. Only a few ones would really be hosed, in their current form.

Bah, it seems like I'll have to write the DCI a letter. Any comments before I do so?

Cards I'll try to have restricted :

Lion's Eye Diamond
Chrome Mox
Mishra's Workshop
Mana Drain
Dark Ritual
Intuition

Maybe I should move this to another topic though...

[PucktheCat]

Quote
Sligh, Suicide Black, Hulk Smash... to mention a few. Long.dec won't be missed and just about any other deck can be easily wrecked with a COTV set at the right number of counters.

I just don't see how Suicide and Hulk Smash are all that damaged by Chalice.  Hulk's 0,1,2 slots are very much the same as Keeper's and Keeper is supposed to love Chalice.

Suicide loses - what?  Dark Ritual, Duress?  Hymn and Sinkhole would cost 4 to stop which comes way to late.  The only reasonable setting is X=1 and that stops StP and Brainstorm too.

Both of these decks die to X=3, but that costs SIX mana.

Everyone needs to remember how quickly Chalice goes from ridiculously cheap to prohibitively expensive.  I think X=2 is probably about as high as Chalice can be expected to go in tight games.

Leo

[Smmenen]

Why don't you wait until the new metagame plays out first??  Is that too much to ask?

Steve

[PucktheCat]

Quote (Smmenen @ Oct. 10 2003,11:23)Why don't you wait until the new metagame plays out first??  Is that too much to ask?

Steve

I second the motion.

Leo

[LemanRuss]

That is right, budget decks were not truly competitive, and experienced (and rich) players who want to win should not play them. But as long as budget players continue to bring their decks at tournaments, just because they have a small chance to win several games, "good decks" have to take care about them. Keeper is playing The Abyss or Circle of Protection : Red for a reason, Stax playing Triskelion as well... even if they are winning against such decks. Please answer me: why the hell are they running such cards ? What if Keeper meets Sligh or Gobbos, or if Hulk meets Suicide black ? Is there really no fight ?

One good player said somewhere, one day: type one remains balanced as long as decks like Sligh remain viable (not necessary good). Maybe it is time to open our eyes and look closer what is really becoming our metagame.

[K-Run]

Quote (Smmenen @ Oct. 10 2003,12:23)Why don't you wait until the new metagame plays out first??  Is that too much to ask?

You're right. I'll wait and see. But I still think that pre-Mirrodin T1 needs some restrictions. They'll probably still be needed later on since adding an expansion to the card pool doesn't remove any card from it.

[LemanRuss]

Quote Why don't you wait until the new metagame plays out first??  Is that too much to ask?

No problem. Let's wait and see.

[Bastian]

Quote One good player said somewhere, one day: type one remains balanced as long as decks like Sligh remain viable (not necessary good). Maybe it is time to open our eyes and look closer what is really becoming our metagame.

True, but with decks like TNT and such the viability of such decks is very very thin, and I wouldn't expect them to be much of a hassle... at least JP considered them pretty much dead, or so it seems.\n\n

[Rico Suave]

K-Run, I'm just curious about why restrict Ritual?  

Anyway, I find the whole budget situation rather ironic.  It's arguable that Fish is performing better now than it ever was before - even better than many powered decks - yet it's ignored.  Suicide isn't so bad either.

[K-Run]

If you restrict all the cards I've mentionned, you'll see that you would end up with a metagame way less broken. Broken starts will still be possible, but will be less frequent.

That meant some classic cards had to go too. Dark Ritual/Duress/Hymn or Ritual/Negator is, IMHO, as swingy as a first turn Workshop/anything. It's brutal, and should happen just less frequently. Restricting Ritual also hurts combo, making it less explosive, and makes Yawgmoth's Win less broken.

[Jacob Orlove]

Quote (LemanRuss @ Oct. 10 2003,12:29)One good player said somewhere, one day: type one remains balanced as long as decks like Sligh remain viable (not necessary good). Maybe it is time to open our eyes and look closer what is really becoming our metagame.

Actually, that was Legend, back when GAT was just dominating. People's response to that was just the same as it is now: no individual deck is "key" to type 1. The format can be perfectly healthy without Zoo, without Sligh, without TnT, without Keeper, without Combo, without any other deck. Yes, it's sad when it's your deck that becomes obsolete, but that's just the way things go. Adapt. Find the new decks that work. A format that doesn't change is dead. A player that doesn't change will lose.

[Dante]

Quote (K-Run @ Oct. 10 2003,13:03)If you restrict all the cards I've mentionned, you'll see that you would end up with a metagame way less broken. Broken starts will still be possible, but will be less frequent.

That meant some classic cards had to go too. Dark Ritual/Duress/Hymn or Ritual/Negator is, IMHO, as swingy as a first turn Workshop/anything. It's brutal, and should happen just less frequently. Restricting Ritual also hurts combo, making it less explosive, and makes Yawgmoth's Win less broken.

Ritual/Negator is too swingy a first turn?? It's a creature..that is taken care of by any number of common turn 1 plays (STP, smother, fire/ice, any burn spell, tangle wire, etc).  It's a 4 turn clock.  If you think that's too broken for type 1, I think you have a much different expectation than most players.

what decks do intuition dominate in?? it's a 3CC tutor, that only works if you have a 3of card....

restrict all that, and we're on the path to of Type 1 becoming 1.5 with moxes.

Dante

[brianb]

I'm with K-run on every one of those cards except maybe dark ritual.  Mana drain and workshop have been bad for the environment for a long time.  Some card (lion's eye I suppose) has to be pulled to stop long.  I don't see how chrome mox is broken yet, but undoubtedly it will be.  Strong tutors like intuition (and the 2 playable wishes probably) should automatically be restricted.  It may be a lost cause, but they should try to keep t1 from getting such a critical mass of tutors that you can always get just what you need.

Now it may be that if they do enough housecleaning, a metagame may develop where decks can play around chalice.  I doubt it though, and I know for sure that having chalice in the environment with mana drain or workshop is just plain lame.