Breaking Bad Habits: Imported From 1.x

[Smmenen]

In private more than one of my teammates has expressed a lack of interest in helping develop this deck, and another friend has flat out told me its terrible.  

This may be no Dragon, but it is still a powerful deck.

And so may I please and proudly introduce a deck of my very own creation, inspired by Extended:

"Angry? Hermit"
By Stephen Menendian

The Br0ken Mana

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Forsaken City
2 Tarnished Citadel

(Could be some Glimmervoids in there)

Protecting your Druid:
4 Force of Will
4 Misdirection
1 Cabal Therapy (after you activate Druid)

Serach/Tutor/Draw
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Deep Analysis

The Combo:
1 Animate Dead
1 Krosan Reclamation
1 Dragon's Breath
1 Sutured Ghoul
3 Polar Kraken (only one extra for FOW bait)
4 Hermit Druid


let me explain.

The goal of this deck is to cast a turn one Hermit Druid.  With 4 Chrome Moxen, 5 Power moxen, Mox Diamond, Black Lotus, Mana Crypt, and Lotus Petal, this is not a difficult accomplishment.  The key, however, is to have three mana on turn two.  This is best accomplished with Lion's Eye Diamond.

Let me walk you through the ideal turn 1-2.

Turn One

*Play Mox.  
*Play Land.  
*Tap Mox and Land for Hermit Druid.  
*Play Lion's Eye Diamond.  Pass the turn.

Should your opponent try and counter your Hermit, this is why you have 4 FoWs and 4 Misdirection (or should they burn it, etc).

Your opponent plays nothing of consequence.

Turn two
*On your upkeep, sacrifice your Lion's Eye Diamond for GGG.  You discard your hand.  
*Use G to activate Druid.  Your entire library goes into your graveyard.  
*Use GG to activate Krosan Reclamation to put Animate Dead on the top of your library (and a land if you need it).  

*Go to your draw step.  Draw Animate Dead.  

*Flashback Cabal Therapy from your Graveyard sacrficing your Hermit Druid to clear any FoWs or STPs.

*Tap your mox and your land, and play Animate Dead on Sutured Ghoul.  Remove the Polar Kraken's to boost the Ghoul's Strength to above lethal damage.  Dragon's Breath activates and attaches to the Ghoul.

*Attack for lethal damage.

There are more than a few variations on that scenario - many with a turn 2 kill.  The trick, however, is to get Hermit Druid into play as soon as possible.  That is also the flaw in this deck which makes it more inconsistent than I'd like.

So, anyone wanna help tune this motha?

Steve Menendian\n\n

[BWM]

Any particular reason you choose Polar Kraken over Leviathan (which is bigger if I remember correctly)

[Smmenen]

The Kraken is bigger.

[Vegeta2711]

I worked on a version of this Pre Mirrodin and it simply was too vunerable to various forms of hate. (Fun though) Coffin Purge and Tormod's Crypt both destroy the deck as they simply kill Ghoul and everything else in your grave after activating Hermit. You won't always have a FoW and Mis-D only helps against some forms of hate. Your version is even more vunerable in a way, as you can't slow play it by reanimating other critters and not relying on the main combo. BTW, god forbid anyone ever plays a Lava Dart against you. (Steely resolve so owns Sligh.   )

If you want, I'll help out though since I love the deck and am going to play it when 1.x season starts. Since your version is so different though, I have a few questions.

1. Are the FoW's + Mis-D's good protection? I always thought the optimal protecton for a combo deck would be Duress and FoW. The ability to only need to play one Therapy is nice though.

2. Try Spoils of the Vault in here? It probably wouldn't work anywhere near as well as in a normal version where removing a combo piece wouldn't be game, but still a thought in searching out Hermit's quickly. (That's the huge + I always thought the 1.x versions had, 4 Vamp. Tutors make the deck pretty consistent)

3. What big advantage does your different engine have over the traditional run 6-8 Animate effects and go off turn 2 w/o needing LED?\n\n

[Spizzard]

Krosan Cloudscraper vs Polar Kraken.

2 Cloudscrapers will make a 26/26 Ghoul.  3 Krakens will make a 31/31.  I think you'd be sufficient with a 26/26 trampler to run over weenies.  This would free up a maindeck slot as well.

[Radagast]

You might want to have a look at my hermit/dragon deck from almost a year ago (as far as I remember, I only posted it as a reply to some thread listing various types of combo decks, as I didn't have the time to actually do anything with it and didn't deem it worth its own topic):

        4 Hermit Druid
        1 Krosan Reclamation
        4 Buried Alive
        4 Dance of the Dead
        3 Animate Dead
        1 Necromancy
        2 Worldgorger Dragon
        1 Ambassador Laquatus
        1 Blood Celebrant (better than a second Ambassador in case you draw the first, barring Extract)
        4 Defense Grid
        4 Duress
        4 Unmask
        1 Cabal Therapy
        1 Necropotence
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        4 Dark Ritual
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        4 Polluted Delta
        4 Bloodstained Mire
        4 Bayou
        1 Llanowar Wastes

I haven't bothered updating it all since then (I imagine it could gain a bit from LEDs, Mirrodin, and whatnot), but the basic concept is the same. I'd think the Dragon combo is far better than Ghouls, since you get to function perfectly well with or without the Hermit.\n\n

[der_Meister]

I think that the misdirections probably should be duress. It seem's to me that the most vulnerable moment is when you try to flashback the reclamation. If your opponent has a fow for it then you're stuck with 0 cards in your library. And in your ideal play you have sacrificed the led at that time already, so misdirection will not do much good then.
Your mana could easily support duress, but i guess the blue count would be a bit low without misD.

Why the lone deep analysis? It's not that great with led IMO. The only other way to get it to the graveyard seems to be using Druid, but then your library will be empty. I guess it could be useful if you choose to activate druid in your main phase and use reclamation so you could draw the two cards and win from there, but that will be at least 5 mana + the cards you draw, seems like that situation will not occur that often. I would go with some other tutor effect, Spoils, or maybe even Worldly Tutor.

[Jacob Orlove]

Running Shallow Grave over Animate Dead+Dragon Breath would free up a MD slot.

[Crater Hellion]

spizzard i'm pretty sure krakens are there because they are blue (pitchable, which is key here) and they are the biggest blue creature.

[Smmenen]

I'm a little dissapointed by the quality fo the responses.

Quote (Vegeta2711 @ Oct. 19 2003,01:39)I worked on a version of this Pre Mirrodin and it simply was too vunerable to various forms of hate. (Fun though) Coffin Purge and Tormod's Crypt both destroy the deck as they simply kill Ghoul and everything else in your grave after activating Hermit. You won't always have a FoW and Mis-D only helps against some forms of hate. Your version is even more vunerable in a way, as you can't slow play it by reanimating other critters and not relying on the main combo. BTW, god forbid anyone ever plays a Lava Dart against you. (Steely resolve so owns Sligh.   )

If you want, I'll help out though since I love the deck and am going to play it when 1.x season starts. Since your version is so different though, I have a few questions.

1. Are the FoW's + Mis-D's good protection? I always thought the optimal protecton for a combo deck would be Duress and FoW. The ability to only need to play one Therapy is nice though.

2. Try Spoils of the Vault in here? It probably wouldn't work anywhere near as well as in a normal version where removing a combo piece wouldn't be game, but still a thought in searching out Hermit's quickly. (That's the huge + I always thought the 1.x versions had, 4 Vamp. Tutors make the deck pretty consistent)

3. What big advantage does your different engine have over the traditional run 6-8 Animate effects and go off turn 2 w/o needing LED?

As with all such combos - they appear vulnerable, but look at dragon.  That deck should just die to STP, but it doesn't.  

Also this is incredibly fast.  

FOW, MISD is best I think.

Spoils is an absolutely terrible suggestion.  How could you even ask that?  What happens if I remove Animate Dead or Ghoul?

I don't need LEDs to go off turn two.  Lotus, or two more moxen will do it.  

Kraken is in here to pitch to FoW/Misdirection - that's why there are three.

Quote
You might want to have a look at my hermit/dragon deck from almost a year ago (as far as I remember, I only posted it as a reply to some thread listing various types of combo decks, as I didn't have the time to actually do anything with it and didn't deem it worth its own topic):

That is a completely different deck.  

The key to this deck is the slim/fast nature of the combo.

Jacob:
 Shallow grave is terrible becuase you will probably not have Ghoul on top of your graveyard.

I have tested this deck and this is the basic build, I just need help tuning.  Also, please read opening post, thanks - this isn't the brainburst forum.

Steve


Steve

[Vegeta2711]

Quote Spoils is an absolutely terrible suggestion.  How could you even ask that?  What happens if I remove Animate Dead or Ghoul?

Well let's see... it's the most useful tutor we've had in a long time and you can play 4 of them. As I said it probably sucks in your version compared to a 1.x build since you run a bunch of single pieces, ah well I blame the fact I was posting late at night. Sorry.

Quote Also this is incredibly fast.  

Well it's not faster than Long as you never can go off turn 1 and even the 1.x version can go off turn 2 pretty often if you run all 8 moxen (4 chrome and diamond) in the deck. Look the thing is I agree you CAN get turn 2 a lot, but after actually really trying the thing out a bit I find I constantly had problems going off turn 2 in a non goldfish situation and this is when I mulled rather aggresively.

Quote I don't need LEDs to go off turn two.  Lotus, or two more moxen will do it.  

To go off turn 2 it requires 5 mana basically is what I'm getting at. How often do you HAVE 5 mana on turn 2, including GG. The GG requirement has screwed me with that whole idea of land + moxen and other accel. So your basically fucked w/o LED or Lotus. Espically if the opponent has a Wasteland for your land. If your opponents are awake while playing, it seems like your target goal is going off turn 3.

Also if I remember correctly with the Hermit activation, you can stack your grave however you want, so you can put the ghoul on top. So Shallow Grave actually might work better.

Edit: Oh yeah, why that single DA? I haven't figured out a use for it yet.\n\n

[KandyKid]

Quote (Spizzard @ Oct. 19 2003,06:39)Krosan Cloudscraper vs Polar Kraken.

2 Cloudscrapers will make a 26/26 Ghoul.  3 Krakens will make a 31/31.  I think you'd be sufficient with a 26/26 trampler to run over weenies.  This would free up a maindeck slot as well.

Less FoW bait  

[Katzby]

Quote *Play Lion's Eye Diamond.  Pass the turn.

Should your opponent try and counter your Hermit, this is why you have 4 FoWs and 4 Misdirection (or should they burn it, etc).

Ok.

Quote
Turn two
*On your upkeep, sacrifice your Lion's Eye Diamond for GGG.  You discard your hand.  
*Use G to activate Druid.  Your entire library goes into your graveyard.  
*Use GG to activate Krosan Reclamation to put Animate Dead on the top of your library (and a land if you need it).  

So, what if your opponent has held onto his force of will until now?  Isn't it true that if he Forces the flashbacked Reclamation, there's nothing you can do about it?  You can't therapy until your main phase, unfortunately.

Armed with this knowledge, won't an opponent with first turn countering capability make it very difficult for you to win quickly?  And if this is the case, I think I'd rather play Dragon.


Katzby

[Crater Hellion]

I know it's not good to pollute a thread with decklists, but I want to post mine from way back because it has some interesting ideas I think.

4 Hermit Druid
1 Sutured Ghoul
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Illusionary Mask
1 Dragon's Breath
2 Reanimate
1 Krosan Reclamation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
3 Defense Grid
3 Survival of the Fittest
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
3 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Llanowar wastes
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
4 City of Brass
1 Mox Diamond

I made this really rough list after I realized my monoblack Masknaught/buried alive/sutured ghoul/shallow grave deck wasn't really going anywhere.

edit: with newer cards, I would think about chrome mox for my deck seriously. Maybe spoils too.\n\n

[Methuselahn]

Quote (Smmenen @ Oct. 19 2003,01:16)The goal of this deck is to cast a turn one Hermit Druid.  With 4 Chrome Moxen, 5 Power moxen, Mox Diamond, Black Lotus, Mana Crypt, and Lotus Petal, this is not a difficult accomplishment.  The key, however, is to have three mana on turn two.  This is best accomplished with Lion's Eye Diamond.

While I haven't tested Angry Hermit, it looks to me that the biggest issue with this build is getting the druid in your opening hand.  Does the build have enough search?  I can understand not using spoils, but what about Intuition, Worldly tutor, Bazaars??

To answer a question... The single Deep Analysis is tech to use with Reclaimation.

[Hawat]

Quote (Smmenen @ Oct. 19 2003,11:38).

Jacob:
 Shallow grave is terrible becuase you will probably not have Ghoul on top of your graveyard.

I have tested this deck and this is the basic build, I just need help tuning.  Also, please read opening post, thanks - this isn't the brainburst forum.

Why exactly is that?  When you activate hermit druid you put all the cards revealed into the graveyard at the same time, and thus get to put them in whatever order you like.  I used to play(during MI/TE t2) a deck that would use hermit druid and would Shallow Grave Revenant into play with haste and hit for 24.

[Blofeld]

I would think that Elvish Spirit Guide would be amazing in this deck, as the combo parts are basically 'green'.

LED seems risky, as you lose all chances of re-countering a countered Krosan Reclamation.

a direct swap would probabaly work:
-4 LED
+4 Spirit Guide

Just a thought.
Blo

EDIT: Sprit guides also boost your Ghoul by approx. +6/+6  \n\n

[hippie tourach]

If you cut LED, you'd never have 5 mana 2nd turn.

However I think ESG would be great, possibly better than Chrome Mox. If the main issue is speed in generating 5 mana 2nd turn (and particularly GG), then ESG is perfect.

[Jacob Orlove]

Quote (Smmenen @ Oct. 19 2003,14:38)Jacob:
 Shallow grave is terrible becuase you will probably not have Ghoul on top of your graveyard.

Other people have pointed this out, so I'll just add the actual card text and rules governing this situation:

Quote Hermit Druid
{G}
Creature -- Druid
1/1
, : Reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a basic land card. Put that card into your hand and all other cards revealed this way into your graveyard.

Quote 217.4c If an effect or rule puts two or more cards into the same graveyard at the same time, the owner of those cards may arrange them in any order.

So Ghoul will always be on top, if you want him to be.

[Smmenen]

Sorry, I should have been more clear.  My problem with that Shallow Grave is also that, at least in my build, I've got the plan to use Cabal Therapy before casting Animate Dead.

Nonetheless, I didn't realize that you could stack the graveyard - point taken .

Steve

[whienot]

But doesn't shallow grave put the top creature card into play, and not if the top card is a creature?

Put the top creature card from your graveyard into play. That creature gains haste until end of turn. Remove it from the game at end of turn.


Maybe I'm wrong and confused...

[Toad]

This deck plans to flashback the Cabal Therapy during its first main phase after milling and reclaming Animate Dead. This means the way you stacked your graveyard when you activate the Druid is not important, as the Druid will always be the top creature card after you sacrifice it to the Therapy.

[Grand Inquisitor]

you can't possibly compare this deck to dragon, which has so much more flexibility, disruption, redundancy, and most importantly, a powerful draw engine.

this deck is fast, and thats it.  it loses to chalice/rod, any creature removal, any graveyard removal, and if it doesn't have pitch backup, any counterspell.  I want to clarify by 'it loses', I don't mean it loses momentum, I mean it actually loses the game.

many combo decks have similar problems, however, this deck has almost no resiliency.  long has draw 7's, dragon has bazaars.  this deck has no back up plan.

I like the build you put together, it looks pretty close to optimal.  However, this will never be better than either long or dragon, and borders on a casual combo deck (if such a thing exists).\n\n

[Andreas]

Just some random thoughts:

1) Replacing the Animate Dead by a Reanimate will reduce the Mana needed to go off in one turn to 4.

2) I would suggest to swap the Lion's Eye Diamonds with Reanimates. With a Reanimate in Hand the mana needed to go off is reduced to 2. So in the LED-version you need an LED, in the Reanimate version you need a Reanimate in Hand to go off quickly. Chances are about equal, only the Reanimate version can keep FoW-ing.

3) In this deck I would say Lotus Petal is better than Mana Crypt, as you need almost no colorless mana (one to play the Hermit Druid).

4) The deck has advantages against Long, as it is not as easily hateable (Sphere of Resistance is only a minor pain, and Chalice can be circumvented). The only advantage I can see that the deck has versus Dragon, though, is that it is less susceptible to Wasteland.

[Smmenen]

Absolutely right - I thought Reanimate caused life loss equal to power, not casting cost.  However, cutting LEDs is absolutely crazy.  The only thing this deck has is speed - cutting them slows it down.

I played around with Elvish Spirit guides already but they weren't helping me out that much.

Steve\n\n

[dicemanX]

Have you considered adopting a more redundant approach by including multiple synergistic combos (like Mask-naught) or mixing it with reanimator (like the actual extended Angry Hermit decks)? GI basically summed things up nicely - your build is near ideal as far as what you wish to accomplish, but the deck is way too vulnerable and bottlenecked at your most important combo piece - the Druid. Redundancy would help address the vulnerability and consistency issue.

I'd suggest some deck lists, but I don't want to spam up this thread. I've been down the Hermit Druid road before (especially with certain WGD ideas), so I've given the Druid quite a bit of thought already.\n\n

[Andreas]

Quote (Smmenen @ Oct. 20 2003,18:47)However, cutting LEDs is absolutely crazy.  The only thing this deck has is speed - cutting them slows it down.

This statement - in regard to this deck - is in my humble opinion simply wrong.

To clarify let's take your example of a perfect game:

Quote (Smmenen @ Oct. 19 2003,08:16)

Turn One

*Play Mox.  
*Play Land.  
*Tap Mox and Land for Hermit Druid.  
*Play Lion's Eye Diamond.  Pass the turn.

Should your opponent try and counter your Hermit, this is why you have 4 FoWs and 4 Misdirection (or should they burn it, etc).

Your opponent plays nothing of consequence.

Turn two
*On your upkeep, sacrifice your Lion's Eye Diamond for GGG.  You discard your hand.  
*Use G to activate Druid.  Your entire library goes into your graveyard.  
*Use GG to activate Krosan Reclamation to put Animate Dead on the top of your library (and a land if you need it).  

*Go to your draw step.  Draw Animate Dead.  

*Flashback Cabal Therapy from your Graveyard sacrficing your Hermit Druid to clear any FoWs or STPs.

*Tap your mox and your land, and play Animate Dead on Sutured Ghoul.  Remove the Polar Kraken's to boost the Ghoul's Strength to above lethal damage.  Dragon's Breath activates and attaches to the Ghoul.

*Attack for lethal damage.

Now let's assume you had a Reanimate in Hand instead of the Lion's Eye Diamond.

You simply would have played the Hermit Druid on turn 1.
On turn two you would have activated him, flashed back the Cabal Therapy and then Reanimated the Ghoul, which all can be done with 2 mana.

In this deck, due to the lack of Draw7s, Lion's Eye Diamond simply can't do that much, and in every situation where having a Lion's Eye Diamond would be good having a Reanimate would be at least as good.

As an additional bonus Reanimate can be imprinted on a Chrome Mox, while Lion's Eye Diamond can't.

[-CF-]

I concur about Reanimate. Also, this deck seems to do nothing at all without a Hermit. The 1.x Hermit decks have a backbone of reanimator (creatures like Verdant Force, Visara and Akroma plus plenty of reanimation spells and Careful Studies). This gives them more ways of sealing the game early - a turn one Akroma can be done with a Careful Study + Reanimate and that's usually game right there. Obviously, you can't fit that much cards into this deck with the 4 FoW, 4 MisD plan, but I think a different disruption base would allow for a much more flexible deck.

--
Chris

[Eastman]

Stephen have you tested this against anything known to be good?

[Jacob Orlove]

Quote (Smmenen @ Oct. 21 2003,10:28)Andreas: Dude, you need four mana on turn two, even with Reanimte.  1 G to activate hermit. 2 G for Reclamation and one black for reanimate.  Your thinking doesn't work.

HOW IN THE HELL CAN I ACTIVATE AND REANIMATE on turn two with 2 mana!!?? like you say?

IT COSTS FOUR.

Steve

I think you missed his point.

Here's his version of how you do things:

*Play Mox.  
*Play Land.  
*Tap Mox and Land for Hermit Druid.  
*Hold Reanimate in your hand (since you replaced LED with it).  Pass the turn.

Turn 2:
*Go to your draw step.  Draw whatever.  

*Tap either the land or the mox to activate Hermit Druid. Your entire library goes into your graveyard.  

*Flashback Cabal Therapy from your Graveyard sacrficing your Hermit Druid to clear any FoWs or STPs.

*Tap your mox or your land, and play Reanimate on Sutured Ghoul.  Remove the Polar Kraken's to boost the Ghoul's Strength to above lethal damage.  Dragon's Breath activates and attaches to the Ghoul.

*Attack for lethal damage.

Of course, you need either a black producing land and Emerald, or a green producing land and Jet for this to work (although Diamond and Chrome will usually work too).