Tainted Mask

[Solaran_X]

Alright. I've done the first post-Mirrodin modifications to my Tainted Mask deck. Basically, it was to help with the Tainted Pacts by dropping two Swamps and two Snow-Covered Swamps in favor of four Vault of Whispers.

Right now, this is my build minus sideboard ( that is metagame dependent anyways, and I tend to get local help with that ).

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
4 Illusionary Mask
1 Mox Jet
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Sol Ring
Creatures
2 Hypnotic Specter
2 Nantuko Shade
2 Phyrexian Negator
Spells
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Necropotence
4 Tainted Pact
2 Unmask
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
Land
4 Mishra's Factory
5 Snow-Covered Swamp
6 Swamp
4 Vault of Whispers

When I saw Spoils of the Vault, I immeadiately decided to try it in Tainted Mask. However, I'm having severe problems deciding what to cut.

The obvious benefit of Spoils is that it could easily set up a turn two Mask/Dreadnought, or even a turn one Mask/Dreadnought if I have enough mana, but am missing only one part of the "combo" ( Ritual, Mask, and Dreadnought ). Unlike with Consultation, I obviously wouldn't be casting Spoils to dig for a restricted card, which narrows down my main targets to three - Illusionary Mask, Phyrexian Dreadnought, and Dark Ritual.

The only card that doesn't really pull it's weight is the Nevinyrral's Disk - but it's always nice for the late-game reset if I'm having trouble.

Aside from the Disk, I'm stuck on what to pull for the other three Spoils of the Vault. Also, given that Spoils is likely to be restricted, would it be best to merely put one Spoils in and get used to playing the deck with only that one copy and then add three more if it doesn't get restricted, or should I abuse the hell out of four copies and just cut three later on?

[Methuselahn]

Is mono black Mask really the way to go?  You lose so much by not having blue.  The two decks play the same, but blue just gives you so much more in the form of search, counter, power, and SB.  

Go ahead and try Spoils, it seems like a perfect card.  By why would you want to subject your lands to wasteland, null rod, shaman, disenchants, etc by using Vault of Whispers?

[Solaran_X]

Mono-Black Mask works good for me in my metagame. I'm going for the pure-speed and beatdown path. Also, I don't run into much artifact hate either, so the Vaults are very good simply because they break-up the lands for the Tainted Pacts. And even if I did run into artifact hate ( short of Gorilla Shaman ), I can always hit the Vault for B first, to drop my Dark Ritual and hopefully mess them up with a "harmless" 0/1.

[hippie tourach]

For pure speed monoblack Mask, some suggestions:

-Spoils of the Vault, making the combo component consistent enough that you can cut the other creatures.
-Cabal Therapy, for its cost better than Hymn because you know what you're looking for.
-Chrome Mox, for more acceleration.
-Mana Crypt, better than Sol Ring.
-Mana Vault, see above.

And removing: the extra creatures (and Factories), VT, some land, Hymn. Of course, that's if you want to go purely with speed. But I find that with 4 Duress/4 Therapy/4 Unmask I can decimate my opponent's hand and not be vulnerable. Then with all the tutors it's rather easy to set up the combno.

If you don't want to be so extreme, I'd still work in 4 Spoils by cutting VT and creatures, since it's such a powerful tutor.

[mrieff]

Disk is cute but seems not stricly needed. It has terrible synergy with the Vaults as well.

Vaults seem bad anyway, why not play random dual lands?
They are not hosed by artifact removal. Non basic hate will affect vaults as well. Moreover, dual lands let you bluff additional colors (deeds, U/B mask, ReB, Blood moon etc)

If you want to test spoils,I'd play 4. You will draw them much more often, which allows for better testing.

Im not sold on 4 in real life, by the way. Generally you wont be able to cast more than 1 during a game, without peeing in your pants while resolving.\n\n

[bebe]

Spoils absolutely belongs in mono black builds. Three with the Vamp and Demonic should be fine. You have enough redundancy to pull it off. Also Unmasks are good but I also prefer Therapies with Duress and would run three.
I would run about twenty-two mana sources ...
13 swamp
mana crypt
lotus petal
sol ring
4 dark ritual
mox jet
lotus
Do keep four to six creatures. I would go with the Shades as back up to the Mask as Null rod will kill you otherwise and sideboard  four others ( Negators, probably).
You are basing your mana on Tainted Pacts so replacing them with Spoils will smooth out the deck and make it very fast and consistent.
Mask has always been a great deck and is seen less now only because it is viewed as being a bit too slow. Spoils should change that dramatically.

[glenchuy]

i've been toying with this build and has had decent success with it

//NAME: Mask, Tainted
// Mana (24)
4 Swamp
4 Snow Covered Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Badlands
4 Dark Ritual
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
// The Combo (8)
4 Illusionary Mask
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
// Other Beatdown (4)
4 Nantuko Shade
// Disruption (14)
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Unmask
2 Cabal Therapy
// Utility (10)
4 Tainted Pact
3 Spoils of the Vault
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Consultation

the addition of 3 spoils of the vault made the deck so consistent, i didn't have to rely on recoil or hippies which, i finally admitted to myself, were too slow for the current decks out there.

i opted to for 4 unmask to have additional disruption against combo or prison on turn 1.  i've tried 4 therapies but i just can't pull a card consistently enough unless i peeked with duress/unmask first.

edit:typos\n\n

[Montana_Gamer]

why not run fetch lands instead of either the dual lands or vault of the whispers?

[MethodXL]

@Montana_Gamer

Tainted Pact becomes better.  

[Montana_Gamer]

isn't that the point of running the fetch lands? so that tainted pack becomes better. Because you take swamps out and put fetch lands in, less swamps means that you will hit doubles of them less during a tainted pact.

[glenchuy]

Quote (Montana_Gamer @ Oct. 29 2003,14:21)isn't that the point of running the fetch lands? so that tainted pack becomes better. Because you take swamps out and put fetch lands in, less swamps means that you will hit doubles of them less during a tainted pact.

but you'll hit doubles of the fetch land.  unless you only run a few copies of fetchlands too.

[Montana_Gamer]

Putting in only a couple is what I meant
-2 Underground Sea
-2 Badland

+2 Bloodstained Mire
+2 Polluted Delta

This also thins out the amount of swamps in the deck when you cast tainted pact.

[glenchuy]

that would work.  any comments on the 4 unmask 2 therapy?  during testing it's worked fine.

[MolotDET]

If I was going to start playing this deck I would still use the Blue, and it would go something like this.

     Mana: 23
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Snow-covered Swamp
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
     Kill: 12
4 Illusionary Mask
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Nantuko Shade
2 Phyrexian Negator
     Disruption: 13
4 Duress
3 Unmask
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
     Draw/search: 11
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Tainted Pact
3 Spoils of the vault
     Broken:
1 Yawgamoth's Will

     the mana base here is so diverse that only bad luck will screw your pacts.  The deck should be so lightning fast that I might even drop Yawgwill for another Spoils.

     The only problem is that this deck is almost completely hosed by chalice set at one, and it simply scoops to chalice set at two.  

[glenchuy]

Quote (MolotDET @ Oct. 29 2003,22:14)1 Chrome Mox

     The only problem is that this deck is almost completely hosed by chalice set at one, and it simply scoops to chalice set at two.  

any reason for the 1 chrome mox?

same problems for chalice.  any suggestions?  the only solution i have is to win the coin toss and yank chalice or get the combo out before he can drop chalice.

[Tatanka]

Actually the only reason why we split blue is for using recoil and not for the walk and recall.  Recoil is gona take care of most annoying permanant.

I don't know how hymns worked for you but most of the time they ended misdirected against me. maybe you could try less of them.

No necropotence?? explain please

Do you have enought creatures to flashback therapy and can you see his hand often enought?  I think no but haven't playtested your version.

I won't argue that much on the creature choice as I didn't play the deck since a while. But here are the comments I could do. First try to fit in some more 9-10 is optimal.  
The negators are comming back main and 2 is the right number, this is a metagame call I just hope your opponent won't imprint fire on specter too often.
Where are the hyppies??!?!?!?!  combined with fast disruption they were gold against many deck, and are a must.
Now the newcomer, nantuko shade. Isn't his place suicide?  Here they could kinda screw your mana base, I mean you have to get black mana to pump him. If you could just don't care about the black mana you could fit somes off colored moxen to speed up the deck.

anyone have a sideboard to post?

anyway THE card to add now is recoil, with no recoil you could scoop to a lot of enchantement/artefacts

my 2 cents

Sébastien

sorry for the bad english i'm Québécois

[MolotDET]

The Chrome Mox is just for the diversification of the mana base.  It could just as easily be Mox Sapphire or a Mox Diamond but I figured with the weight of spells (37) and most of those being Black (35) you are more than likely to have an extra Black spell card in hand than a land (13).  I might actually use more than one Chrome Mox but I am not sure what this would do to the deck.

     While using Recoil is awesome for your purposes, I think that having it as a non-business spell might slow the deck down or cause a random mulligan here or there.  I would absolutely include those in the side-board but I think the deck will be fast enough to not need it game one.
     Chalice will only really hose this deck when set at two.  You can still mask out creatures and cast Negators under Chalise for two, as long as you get the Mask out first.  Basically if you want to play this deck post-Mirrodin it is going to have to be fast enough to drop the combo on turn one at least 60% of the time.  The build I posted is very fast but I am not sure if it is 60% yet.
     The Hymns are really good if you have to go the disrupt now and kill later route.  I don't see many people playing Misdirections outside of Fish or EBA, so MisD really isn't a problem where I play.  But, if it is by you I might cut the number of Hymns down.
     Ok, there is nothing wrong with Necro, I just can't find a spot for it.  That being said, as a one of, Necro is really only good early game and I went with Yawgwill over necro in the one spot I had because Will can pull a game out of the shitter if you can get it through.  Now Necro can do the same but Will does it this turn.
     Flashing back Therapy really isn't part of the plan.  Truthfully, if you are in a position to have two creatures out and are able to dispence with one, to be able to take a card out of your opponents hand then you really didn't need to flashback the Therapy anyway.  Not to say that the ability is not useful, but I you shouldn't need it in most cases.
     This deck is about speed.  Negator fits into the need for speed.  Of course anywhere that your opponent imprints fire/ice on a Stick is going to be bad, but again you are hoping to have a very early kill out and fire/ice on a stick does not happen as early as you might think.  Using this logic, Plow, Boomerang, Orim's Chant, Smother or a number other things on a stick is bad.
     As for Shades, I think this is the evolved form of Suicide Black and so whatever works there will work here.  You are looking for a very short clock, no more than turn 5.  Shades will keep the preasure on while you are getting the combo out and if the combo is stopped then you have a growing threat on the board in Shade.
     Hyppies are real good and if the speed approach dosen't pann out then you should absolutely add them back in.  Right now I see the deck as being too fast for the Hyppies and so I added in more discard to cover for them.  Adding another one or two creatures is possible if you can find room for them.  I would think that having extra in the sideboard would be enough.
     As for the sideboard I would suggest additional creatures and recoil (though too many or these might signal that you need an additional Underground Sea in the maindeck).  With perhaps powder Kegs and Maybe Crypts/Coffin Purges.

     Let me just say that I am not sure if this deck in entirely viable in the post-Mirrodin meta-game.  It's saving grace is that to hose it a deck Like Keeper would have to set it's Chalice at two, thereby cutting off it's ability to use most of it's own spells.  Though Cunning Wish for Rack and Ruin will work real well...

[Tatanka]

While using Recoil is awesome for your purposes, I think that having it as a non-business spell might slow the deck down or cause a random mulligan here or there.  I would absolutely include those in the side-board but I think the deck will be fast enough to not need it game one.

Yeah, I prefer having a random mulligan than a random loss becaus I have absolutely no answer in my entire deck. One reactive card in the deck isn't too much, if you want pure speed so you should try playing combo, this is aggro/combo

About Cotv, I guess you guys are on the wrong way caus mask is one of the rare deck chalice don't affect that much.  By the time they set it at 2 your already beating them with 12/12.  But Cotv is terrible against many other deck and this is only giving you an advantage.

For the hymns your right it's a metagame call.  You are also right on the future of the deck post-Mirodin, there may be too much artefact hate to survive.

Here is my current list, I'm open to your comments.  The red splash is for blood moon(side) which is gold these day of fragile mana base.

  Mana sources: 24
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Badland
3 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Snow-covered Swamp
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox saphire
1 Mox ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual
    Kill: 13
4 Illusionary Mask
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Hypnotic specter
2 Phyrexian Negator
1 Masticore or LoT
    Disruption: 12
4 Duress
2 Unmask
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Recoil
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
    Draw/search: 10
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Tainted Pact
1 Spoils of the vault
1 Necropotence
    Broken: 1
1 Yawgamoth's Will

This list look like the old tainted pact list I agree but that's what worked good for me so...

Now, what we should talk about to bring the deck back in the current meta is the sideboard.  

Sébas

Sorry it seem I'm too stupid to use the Quote.\n\n

[glenchuy]

Quote (MolotDET @ Oct. 30 2003,14:42)The Chrome Mox is just for the diversification of the mana base... you are more than likely to have an extra Black spell card in hand than a land (13).  

     While using Recoil is awesome for your purposes, I think that having it as a non-business spell might slow the deck down or cause a random mulligan here or there.  

  I don't see many people playing Misdirections outside of Fish or EBA, so MisD really isn't a problem where I play.  But, if it is by you I might cut the number of Hymns down.

     Flashing back Therapy really isn't part of the plan.  

     This deck is about speed.  Negator fits into the need for speed.  Of course anywhere that your opponent imprints fire/ice on a Stick is going to be bad...

i tried chrome mox, but in games where i drew both unmask and chrome mox, it just hurt too much.

my sentiments on recoil too.

few MisDs here and there, not that much of a problem since i'm going to duress/unmask first

and as backup, i have 2 factories.

despite CotV shutting down sligh, it's still quite popular in my meta, i don't think i'll be putting in gators any time soon.

[MethodXL]

I've played this deck a couple of times online, and i know that doesn't subistute for real testing, but........

I don't like chrome mox because so many times I really don't have anything to imprint because i need the cards to comob out quicker.  I know that there needs to be something like the mox for the mana, but it's just really not that good.  You would think you could find something to pitch but its really hard.  Yea it could easily be other moxes but i think it needs more acceleration then the few restricted moxen.\n\n

[glenchuy]

i think the sideboard could be

2-recoil, 2-hippies (if you're using 2 already), 2 coffin purge/crypt, 2 rack and ruin??(is it recommended to splash red just for rack and ruin, X blood moon (ditto)

also, to those using u/b version, is it really better than mono-black?  i think mono-black gives it more consistency while going with blue only gives it a slight advantage due to broken first turns with ancestral. but if i'm going to sideboard blue cards in i might as well add ancestral and timewalk.

[Tatanka]

glenchuy : you're right about the chrome mox/unmask thing this is a choice to do and most peoples are gonna take unmask.

About factories, I guess wastelands and strip mine are better these days as workshops and unstable mana base are present everywhere. Factories on their part are nice blockers, good against blue based deck(but heh? isn't the entire deck so), and provide a answer to those diabolic edicts.

It's sad that guardian beast read "non-creature artefact" I could have played one as "secret tech", but does it worth it if you can't protect the 12/12? I'm not so sure  

Sébastien

[Luc, Use The Force]

It may be off-topic but it's good to see you back Sébastien!

Bring in the 'Nought!

[glenchuy]

Quote (Tatanka @ Oct. 30 2003,18:56)About factories, I guess wastelands and strip mine are better these days as workshops and unstable mana base are present everywhere.

might be a stupid reply, but aren't wastelands a little too slow for the deck?  does it really matter if you disrupt their mana base?  i mean, if mana base disruption was "key" here, shouldn't sinkholes be in for hymns? or am i missing something here.

maybe because i'm not playing against a lot of workshop decks irl.

[Matt The Great]

I played about ten games versus Tainted Mask tonight.

I was playing two kinds of Keeper - a fairly standard Scepter build that had 2 Chalice main, and my Burning/Cunning Wish Keeper I posted in the now-locked Keeper discussion thread

Yes, you NEED Wastelands. Mana denial was the deck's only chance. These games were all pre-SB, too (Keeper gets better post-SB). Honestly I now think Mask is just worse than Suicide, for one reason: it cannot run Null Rod. Null Rod would have been a gamebreaker, especially against Scepter builds.

[glenchuy]

so, with that in mind, do i cut 2 factories, 3 non basics for 4 wasteland, strip?

that's going to severely cripple my black sources, if i were to use 4 waste, 1 strip, i'd probably go:

//NAME: Mask, Tainted
// Mana (25)
3 Swamp
3 Snow Covered Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual
2 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
// The Combo (8)
4 Illusionary Mask
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
// Other Beatdown (4)
4 Phyrexian Negator (my meta can't support this- any suggestions?)
// Disruption (13)
4 Duress
4 Unmask
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Cabal Therapy
// Utility (10)
4 Tainted Pact
3 Spoils of the Vault
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Consultation

[Matt The Great]

Cut the Mana Vault for another black source, eh? You have no use for three colorless mana, ever. All your stuff uses 2 at most, and you can't even use the Mask as a sink because it's a sorcery-speed activated ability.

EDIT: Oh wait, you could hardcast Unmask. My point still stands though.\n\n

[Tatanka]

glenchuy: maybe you could try something like 1 strip and 2-3 waste if your mana base can't support more. Matt is right on the vault issue, useless in this deck.  There are a lot of choice to replace gators, specters/shades/Lord of tresserhorn/skittering horror and I did'nt search in the new creatures.  You could also try a volrath stronghold if you want to run less creature but it's a casual choice

Luc: thanks, I'm back in team Clément (hold me a cap)

[Os-Vegeta]

Quote I played about ten games versus Tainted Mask tonight.

I was playing two kinds of Keeper - a fairly standard Scepter build that had 2 Chalice main, and my Burning/Cunning Wish Keeper I posted in the now-locked Keeper discussion thread

Yes, you NEED Wastelands. Mana denial was the deck's only chance. These games were all pre-SB, too (Keeper gets better post-SB). Honestly I now think Mask is just worse than Suicide, for one reason: it cannot run Null Rod. Null Rod would have been a gamebreaker, especially against Scepter builds.

I was the one who Matt tested with, and this was the list I used in our pre-sb testing.  

2 Swamp    
1 Strip Mine       
2 Wasteland      
4 Badlands      
2 Bloodstained Mire      
2 Snow-Covered Swamp      
2 Polluted Delta      
4 Dark Ritual      
1 Mox Jet      
1 Black Lotus      
4 Duress      
1 Yawgmoth's Will      
1 Necropotence      
1 Demonic Consultation      
3 Hymn to Tourach       
3 Spoils of the Vault      
1 Sol Ring      
1 Lotus Petal      
3 Cabal Therapy      
4 Illusionary Mask      
1 Chrome Mox      
3 Tainted Pact      
1 Demonic Tutor      
1 Mana Crypt      
3 Chalice of the Void/Unmask      
2 Gorilla Shaman   
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought      
2 Phyrexian Negator

My build deviates a bit from others posted in this thread by running red mainly because I fear Chalice and want Gorilla Shaman to back me up.  Whether two is the right amount is something I'm not sure of.  

Wastelands are a MUST if you really want to play this deck.  Like Matt said, it's necessary for you to have Strips to have any kind of chance against control.  Once Matt got to 3 mana and had been able to deal with my initial combo rush (usually by drawing into Wish, then fetching StP), the game was essentially over.  

In some of my games, I decided to give Chalice a try too, since sometimes Unmask was either drawn to be a dead card in hand (ie, didn't want to/ could not pitchcast it) or sometimes I drew discard in overkill amounts.  Chalice was alright in one of the games that it was drawn and was able to come out, but in other games it didn't even matter because opposing moxen were already on the table.  

I can't say I was happy with the testing results.  With so much of the deck devoted to getting the Mask-Nought combo out, you would think it would be easier, especially with the increase in tutors.  But really, against aggro like Madness (Matt tested a few games as Madness too) this deck has a horrible time.  You need two Noughts out by turn 3 at the latest, which isn't always able to be achieved.  All in all, Tainted Mask is still very, very finicky, which is something I never liked about the deck.  You have to rely a lot on what you get as your opening hand, but unlike other combo decks where you have to do the same, you can't win in one turn which means you need to try to protect the combo longer.  There were many times that I used Spoils to tutor up a Naught or Mask and began thinking to myself, "Yeah, this really would be much better if I could win NOW instead of 2 turns AFTER this one."\n\n

[MolotDET]

Just a question?  Seeing as how most of the deck is hosed by Chalice for one.  Would it not be imprudent to use Gorilla Shaman as your artifact killer?  

     As for wastelands I have been talked into using them and they do give you a bit more game, albeit a slower game than I was shooting for.  Unfortunately with a few more days of testing under the belt, I am really not sure that Mask is playable.  Not that I am saying it is unplayable, but it does suffer alot from Chalice in particular and from all the artifact hate in the new meta-game in general.