[Article] What's the best deck post mirrodin?

[Smmenen]

Link

Any thoughts?  Comments?  Spare Change?

Steve\n\n

[waSP]

Good article.  Thanks for the mention.

[VideoGameBoy]

I don't think there is a "best" deck overall right now, Smmenen, but there is a best archetype in each deck style:

1) Combo = Dragon
2) Control = Keeper
3) Combo/Control = Hulk

There are probably a few more, but these are the most visible.

MUD and Long are just hated right out of the current meta.  They are still uber-powerful, but falling over and dying to a single card sucks, and that card is now everywhere.

Chalice has not impressed me in Keeper.  It has its uses in the sideboard since it is a win against several prominent decks, but its symmetry is mostly a pain in the ass.

The first example you list looks like a God-hand, by the way.

[Smmenen]

Purpose of the this series is going to look at a few of the best decks and the mirrodin changes.  I don't actually come out and say what the best deck is - but you can be sure as shit that my next article is going to shake things up and perhaps even change the metagame.  

I agree that Mud is a questionable choice right now as well.

Steve

[Samite Healer]

That was an excellent read, and as always, well written.  I agree that Keeper is back with a passion (and I'm damn happy about that) and that Mud is easily hated; however, through my playtesting I feel that Chalice is a card best left to the board.  Also, I find scepter to be really powerful in Keeper.

[wuaffiliate]

good article

[shlnmnk]

nice article. good read.

[jntemp777]

Quote (VideoGameBoy @ Oct. 29 2003,20:16)Chalice has not impressed me in Keeper.  It has its uses in the sideboard since it is a win against several prominent decks, but its symmetry is mostly a pain in the ass.

I would have to agree that I don't like Chalice in Keeper either.  I'm prefering a build of 2 monkeys+Dismantling Blow vs. the 3 Chalices.  The monkeys have won me several games by eating opponent's Chalices.  The Blow's cc makes it hard to Chalice for.  

I like how the Chalice can suddenly ramp you into an aggresive position early on, but Keeper overall still plays more reactionary.  This is also the same reason I never favoured duress in Keeper.  

Interesting read.

[Zherbus]

Exactly what sort of testing is going into the opinions of those who don't like it? I know us who do on the Paragons and Meandeck like and have a WEALTH of testing behind it.

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote (Zherbus @ Oct. 30 2003,04:04)Exactly what sort of testing is going into the opinions of those who don't like it? I know us who do on the Paragons and Meandeck like and have a WEALTH of testing behind it.

In my case, Scepter Keeper is the deck I've been playing exclusively for the past couple of weeks.  My meta is a jumble right now, but the one common denominator is the assload of artifact hate (Shaman, Energy Flux), and Chalice has been near universally impotent due to the rampant hate and inherent symmetry.

It's also a hunch, but Keeper lists in the tourney report forum just might corroborate this.

Scepter, on the other hand, has been universally superb.

[MoreFling]

So, because there is an assload of artifact hate, Scepter is almost infinitely better than Chalice? Hmm... that makes sense... only not!
The only difference between the two is that with Chalice, a Monkey can pay the measly price of 1 to much it, and with scepter it needs 5 mana to go to lunch. It seems the result at the last Eindhoven tournament was that Keeper without the new tools survived the best, then came the Chalice Keepers, and the Keepers with Scepter were all the way down on the final standings.

Chalice is amazing for keeper, since it allows the pilot to actually stretch out the game to a point where you are in a much superior position to take the game home than your opponent (who is almost always having a harder time under chalice to keep his game going then you are).

Basicly, I'd like to know the same thing Zherbus said  

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote So, because there is an assload of artifact hate, Scepter is almost infinitely better than Chalice? Hmm... that makes sense... only not!
The only difference between the two is that with Chalice, a Monkey can pay the measly price of 1 to much it, and with scepter it needs 5 mana to go to lunch.

Except that Scepter imprinting Fire/Ice or StP kills Monkey by itself, whereas Chalice at 0 does nothing but get eaten.  If I play Chalice at 1 or 2, it had better be winning the game, because it is taking out most of my ability to deal with my opponent's threats.

Quote It seems the result at the last Eindhoven tournament was that Keeper without the new tools survived the best, then came the Chalice Keepers, and the Keepers with Scepter were all the way down on the final standings.

So Eindhoven is to be taken as a reflection of the universal metagame?  Why don't you look at Samite Healer's tournament report?  My build is virtually identical, except I am more fond of Scepter utility and pack more Scepters and Wishes.

I think the quandary here is that the environment is in flux, and some people are having success with Chalice, and others with Scepter, and the twain or truth has yet to be sorted.  That both camps can be so vehemently divided, though, is quite remarkable.

My experience is that Keeper is a good deck in spite of Chalice being in it, which is why it still wins.

Quote Chalice is amazing for keeper, since it allows the pilot to actually stretch out the game to a point where you are in a much superior position to take the game home than your opponent (who is almost always having a harder time under chalice to keep his game going then you are).

And this improves it's already good matchups how?

[Zherbus]

Quote In my case, Scepter Keeper is the deck I've been playing exclusively for the past couple of weeks.  My meta is a jumble right now, but the one common denominator is the assload of artifact hate (Shaman, Energy Flux), and Chalice has been near universally impotent due to the rampant hate and inherent symmetry.

If you can't build or play around the Symmetry, then I don't know what to say. Either way, Scepter is WORSE around more hate because it's a two card investment. I already explained why it wasn't pulling its weight, and I'll do it once more.

With people packing more ways to deal with artifacts, (especially the mirror where you have Shaman, then Disenchant, and finally Rack and Ruin) it's far more difficult to drop a Scepter and anything and keep it protected long enough to reap the rewards. Dropping it too early means you need a FoW to keep it in play and avoid getting 2-for-1'd by a artifact kill card.

For an initial investment you need 2 mana to just drop it. Then either a FoW + blue card in hand or 2 more mana for a Mana Drain in hand (or on scepter). In most cases, that's four mana. Also take into account that in this format, you have likely used up your FoW previously if facing most any upper tier deck.

Chalice is good because YOU get to decide when and for how much it drops for. You can drop a Shaman turn 1, Brainstorm, Ancestral - whatever - then drop it later. You only need to mindlessly dump it against combo and sligh, everything else takes a little more finess.

Quote I think the quandary here is that the environment is in flux, and some people are having success with Chalice, and others with Scepter, and the twain or truth has yet to be sorted.  That both camps can be so vehemently divided, though, is quite remarkable.

The quandry here is that everyone I know of who favors Chalice, I have either personally tested with or at least knows plays a fair amount of tournaments. The majority of people who aren't so keen on Chalice I can't ever recall seeing a tournament report from.

Quote

Quote Chalice is amazing for keeper, since it allows the pilot to actually stretch out the game to a point where you are in a much superior position to take the game home than your opponent (who is almost always having a harder time under chalice to keep his game going then you are).

And this improves it's already good matchups how?

Uh, Keeper prefers a dragging ass slow game. Chalice makes this happen more easily.

[Grendal]

I think Videogameboy says it best:

Quote I think the quandary here is that the environment is in flux, and some people are having success with Chalice, and others with Scepter, and the twain or truth has yet to be sorted.  That both camps can be so vehemently divided, though, is quite remarkable.

My experience is that Keeper is a good deck in spite of Chalice being in it, which is why it still wins.

The environment is in a state of flux currently, and it really doesn't matter which route you take, be it Scepter or be it Chalice, the same artifact hate is going to be there.  

Quote With people packing more ways to deal with artifacts, (especially the mirror where you have Shaman, then Disenchant, and finally Rack and Ruin) it's far more difficult to drop a Scepter and anything and keep it protected long enough to reap the rewards. Dropping it too early means you need a FoW to keep it in play and avoid getting 2-for-1'd by a artifact kill card.

A Chalice player will have to watch out for the hate as much as a Scepter player will.   You hear people like Zherbus screaming that the destruction of a Scepter is a 2 for 1 trade, and he is right ONLY if it is destroyed the moment it is cast, and prior to it being used.   After that it pays for itself many MANY times over.

A turn 1 Chalice for 0 or 1 might be brutal if left in play.   A turn 1 Scepter with Mana drain also left untouched is actually probably BETTER than that turn 1 chalice.   The arguement goes both ways.   The same artifact hate exists for both, so actually using that as the basis for your arguement against one or the other is idiotic at best.   Not to mention a early chalice is far more suseptable to early hate (ala Gorilla Shaman) than a Scepter ever will be.

Quote The quandry here is that everyone I know of who favors Chalice, I have either personally tested with or at least knows plays a fair amount of tournaments. The majority of people who aren't so keen on Chalice I can't ever recall seeing a tournament report from.

Just because you do not see them post reguraly in the tourney reports forum is hardly a means by which to discredit them.   I mean I could play every week in a cheap little card shop tourney to, that wouldn't mean I am a better player, or more experienced with the deck because I am capable of beating a type 2 deck with a sol ring added.   I know I for one am the type that really doesn't enjoy writing tourney reports.  I do play in a tournament about each weak, sometimes it is type 1, sometimes it is type 1.5, and I try a wide variety of decks to get a feel for how each of them play, and to better understand them.   But writing tourney reports, or even winning tournaments is by no means a ground on which to base someones credibility.

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote (Zherbus @ Oct. 30 2003,09:29)The quandry here is that everyone I know of who favors Chalice, I have either personally tested with or at least knows plays a fair amount of tournaments. The majority of people who aren't so keen on Chalice I can't ever recall seeing a tournament report from.

To qualify this statement somewhat, you need to insert "maindeck" after every intance of Chalice.

I have no arguments about the card slowing the game down; my beef is with shooting yourself in the foot and hindering Keeper's flexibility maindecking a card that negates multiple bullets.  So far no argument has won me over how it benefits versus prevalent combo/aggro strategies such as Mask and Dragon, or combo/control decks such as Hulk and GaT, which can be terrible Keeper matchups.

T1 is notorious for abusing so-called "symmetric" cards, but here I see no abuse, merely numerous arguments that somehow a slower game universally harms all other decks while solely benefitting Keeper - a truth that is not self-evident.

Regarding Scepter, if it can't fit in Keeper, then it can't fit in anywhere in T1.

I doubt you will ever see anything other than a T2 tournament report from me, since I now only play T1 casually.  Does that invalidate the opinions of people such as HengeWolf and I?  Not at all; just because I don't play for cards or money doesn't mean that the emergent intricacies of the game are foreign to me.

[Dante]

Quote (Grendal @ Oct. 30 2003,11:48)But writing tourney reports, or even winning tournaments is by no means a ground on which to base someones credibility.

Not to get off topic, but yes it is.  "Credibility" for online Magic discussion is based on good ideas and results.

Dante

[Smmenen]

It's often difficult to evaluate the function of Chalice becuase it affects what you don't see.  In other words, if you play (going first) a turn one chalice for zero, you aren't going to know what the full effect of Chalice is unless your opponent explains how badly its hosed them.  I really think that you keeper players are ignoring how important it is for keeper to a) slow the game down and b) destroy the opponents mana base.  If you don't think Keeper is in no small part about mana denial, then I think you are playing a different deck.  Keepers draw engine is totally terrible - that's why I really liked Intuition/AK - the current keeper draw engine requires that you destroy the mana base of the opponent to slow the game down so that you decompress the game.  

Chalice does that quite admirably.  Then when you factor in, for actual tournament play, how effective of a hoser it is, it's quite excellent.  It might also be a card you SB out in certain matchups if you are drawing.

Steve

[PucktheCat]

@ Zherbus:  I for one think that Chalice is clearly a maindeck choice right now.  My question is how much do you think that is a metagame decision?

To pick an extreme example would you play Chalice in a field that was 60% Keeper mirrors?  Alternatively, do you sideboard out the Chalices in the mirror?

I guess my question is - How much is the ability to break symmetry by choosing your moment to play it (as you describe - by playing your brainstorm/moxen before you play the Chalice) just a "making do" option?

Leo

[Zherbus]

Quote I doubt you will ever see anything other than a T2 tournament report from me, since I now only play T1 casually.  Does that invalidate the opinions of people such as HengeWolf and I?  Not at all; just because I don't play for cards or money doesn't mean that the emergent intricacies of the game are foreign to me.

First off, HengeWolf is a fine individual who states that he only follows things casually and never makes bold claims, then fights them to the bitter end with people who likely spend more time on the format than him. Don't drag him into this.

Quote T1 is notorious for abusing so-called "symmetric" cards, but here I see no abuse, merely numerous arguments that somehow a slower game universally harms all other decks while solely benefitting Keeper - a truth that is not self-evident

Keeper is better in the long game. There you have it.

Quote So far no argument has won me over how it benefits versus prevalent combo/aggro strategies such as Mask and Dragon, or combo/control decks such as Hulk and GaT, which can be terrible Keeper matchups.

How is shutting off AK not good against Tog decks? How the HELL is Dragon a terrible Keeper matchup? Granted Chalice isn't good there, but Keeper has plenty of tools to deal with Dragon without needing Chalice. Against Mask, it's certainly Marginal, but far from useless.

Quote The environment is in a state of flux currently, and it really doesn't matter which route you take, be it Scepter or be it Chalice, the same artifact hate is going to be there.  

Right, but you need to use 2 cards to make Scepter work. Also, Chalice tends to do its dirty work earlier in the game, whereas Scepter is a stronger late game card.

Quote A Chalice player will have to watch out for the hate as much as a Scepter player will.   You hear people like Zherbus screaming that the destruction of a Scepter is a 2 for 1 trade, and he is right ONLY if it is destroyed the moment it is cast, and prior to it being used.   After that it pays for itself many MANY times over.

ARG! I've typed it out like 87 times already; it never worked out like that. Scepter is GRAND if you drop it turn 4 (please go back and read my other post detailing why), forget about using it much earlier than that. Haven't you kept up on the format and the definitive turn being turn 2? The bottom line to what I am saying is that the format is much too fast right now for Scepter. Slow the fundimental turn down by 2 (either by altering the format or playing in a slower metagame) or even just 1 and I'll throw my pair right back into traditional Keeper. Otherwise, the decks more geared to abuse it will really be the only deck I'd want to see it in.

To clarify, in Keeper - When you have the mana and cards for it, great. When you don't, you likely can't protect it. That's why I don't run it. Any idiot can see WHAT Scepter can do when it works; that's not the topic for debate.

Puck: Sure there are matches I side Chalice out in. There are also matches I side Swords, Shamans, and hell even Wastelands. Would I maindeck Chalice against the mirror dominated metagame? Of course not.

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Zherbus @ Oct. 30 2003,12:29)For an initial investment you need 2 mana to just drop it. Then either a FoW + blue card in hand or 2 more mana for a Mana Drain in hand (or on scepter). In most cases, that's four mana. Also take into account that in this format, you have likely used up your FoW previously if facing most any upper tier deck.

What I don't understand is why a Chalice set at 4 mana is in any way better than that scenario you describe.  And isn't that what you all claim to be the number against several decks?

Quote Chalice is good because YOU get to decide when and for how much it drops for. You can drop a Shaman turn 1, Brainstorm, Ancestral - whatever - then drop it later. You only need to mindlessly dump it against combo and sligh, everything else takes a little more finess.

The problem I have with that is by casting the 1cc spells before Chalice is set at 1, your opponent has so much room to cast their own 1cc spells, and then what is Chalice stopping?

Quote The quandry here is that everyone I know of who favors Chalice, I have either personally tested with or at least knows plays a fair amount of tournaments. The majority of people who aren't so keen on Chalice I can't ever recall seeing a tournament report from.

That's not exactly a good point to prove your position, because those who aren't keen on Chalice and do post tournaments are winning the tournaments they report.  

It seems the Chalice Keepers are placing lowest in comparison to other Keepers, from what I see.

Quote Keeper is better in the long game. There you have it.

I like this in theory, but in actual practice I didn't see this at all.  The game goes slower, but it's not like Keeper can capitalize on the opponent's slowed state because Chalice slows Keeper itself down to an even slower pace than before.  

It's like saying the turtle would win the race if the rabbit was in a puddle of glue, but the turtle has to go through the same puddle too.

Quote It's often difficult to evaluate the function of Chalice becuase it affects what you don't see.  In other words, if you play (going first) a turn one chalice for zero, you aren't going to know what the full effect of Chalice is unless your opponent explains how badly its hosed them.  I really think that you keeper players are ignoring how important it is for keeper to a) slow the game down and b) destroy the opponents mana base.

That is true, but then how effective is Gorilla Shaman?  Having so many mox-killers leads to a lot of dead cards.  I would question the use of the inferior mana denial card.

Also, I would argue that putting Fire/Ice, or other specific cards, can turn Scepter into a solid form of mana denial that also draws cards.

Quote How is shutting off AK not good against Tog decks?

Quote Any idiot can see WHAT Scepter can do when it works; that's not the topic for debate.

These two statements tie in together.  

Anybody can see what Chalice does when it works (like stop AK), but I'd like to point out that it is difficult to get Chalice to work too.  I'd say it's more difficult to get Chalice to work effectively against Tog than it is to get Scepter to work effectively, and Scepter is also more rewarding when it resolves than Chalice is.

Quote Right, but you need to use 2 cards to make Scepter work. Also, Chalice tends to do its dirty work earlier in the game, whereas Scepter is a stronger late game card.

Which is ironic, considering you're naming things like 2 against Tog, which requires double the mana that Scepter would.  That leads me to believe that Chalice is the late game card, and Scepter is the early game one.

Quote Haven't you kept up on the format and the definitive turn being turn 2?

Yes, the fundamental turn is 2, but that doesn't mean there aren't turns after that.  It's not uncommon to have the tide of the game swing back and forth later on.  Scepter is useful for maintaining control after turn 2, but Chalice is much more unreliable.

Either way, I'd really like to know how your Chalices at 2 and 3 come out before that fundamental turn.

[Grendal]

Quote  ARG! I've typed it out like 87 times already; it never worked out like that. Scepter is GRAND if you drop it turn 4 (please go back and read my other post detailing why), forget about using it much earlier than that. Haven't you kept up on the format and the definitive turn being turn 2? The bottom line to what I am saying is that the format is much too fast right now for Scepter. Slow the fundimental turn down by 2 (either by altering the format or playing in a slower metagame) or even just 1 and I'll throw my pair right back into traditional Keeper. Otherwise, the decks more geared to abuse it will really be the only deck I'd want to see it in.

I have read many of your posts, and many posts of a lot of people on here.   The thing I am clearly seeing is that those that have tried the Scepter, have found it far more effective than those who have opted the route of Chalice.   You mention that a deck specifically designed to do it might be ok, but I fail to see how Keeper is in anyway not setup to abuse the scepter?   In my opinion it is the perfect deck to pack Scepter, and use it effectively.   I am not going to argue that I think Turn 2 is an extremely important turn, but I am going to argue that you do not by any means have to wait till turn 4 or 5 to throw down a scepter.   I will be totally fine with gambling a turn 1 Scepter out, because if you do counter it, I essentially just duressed you, and if you do not counter it, you face a very high chance that my (fundamental turn 2) will be even that much more powerful, being as though I could easily have a Mana Drain / Ancestral / StP / Impulse / etc…  on a Scepter, and the mana to use it.   This of course quickly digs a hole for my opponent, that in just a few rounds he will no longer be able to get out of.   A round 1 impulse on a scepter left unchecked means by the time turn 4 rolls around I very possibly could have milled through 12 to 16 cards via the scepter, and will have gained 6 cards in hand due to my normal draw + Scepter.   Can you say game?

Round 1 if I lay a Scepter you HAVE to counter it, if you do not you almost have to have a fistful of moxen and a gorilla shaman, or chances are you just lost the game.   Chalice does not have that power, in fact Chalice isn’t even close.

You are saying the format is so god awful fast but, I just have to disagree…   Force of Will and Early StP, or more importantly some Wastelands, is what stops Dragon from going off early.   The fact that you have Scepter in your deck hardly detracts from how you will play vs this opponent.  Rather I drop a round 1 Scepter imprinting mana drain with a first turn mox/land doesn’t change the fact I may be holding a force of will in hand, or that I may wasteland his Bazaar the following turn.   It only strengthens my position in that turn 2 I know I will have some means of countering and/or digging for answers.   Where as the person without a Scepter, sure could drop a Chalice for 0 hoping to disrupt some of there moxen, but really won’t gain to terribly much vs Dragon.

Long.dec is still going to win on turn 1 or 2 unless you have early disruption anyways.   If Long.dec wins the dice roll, its highly probably that you holding a chalice won’t amount to much of anything anyways.   Not to mention, I would prefer to have a better matchup vs the majority of the field, and perhaps be willing to take a weaker matchup vs long.   Although, quite frankly I don’t agree that playing Scepter weakens my position in anyway vs long, but I can clearly see, as can many that my position, especially in the control mirror is considerably strengthened via the Scepter main deck as opposed to Chalice, and I can always sideboard the Chalice’s in if I really feel the need.

Quote To clarify, in Keeper - When you have the mana and cards for it, great. When you don't, you likely can't protect it. That's why I don't run it. Any idiot can see WHAT Scepter can do when it works; that's not the topic for debate.

 I think this might be where you are not quite seeing it as I am.   Perhaps you are taking the name “Keeper” to actually mean a certain play style, if that is the case then call the deck I am playing something else, even though it will encompass about 97% of the same card base as your Keeper does.   Your style of play obviously is entirely different from my style of play, and many of those like me who opt to run Scepter.   I unlike you do not seem to think there is anything fundamentally wrong with that.   Your choice to not run Scepter is not fundamentally wrong, nor is it the right choice either.   What I think a lot of people that were formerly Keeper players like yourself fail to realize, is that now Keeper is no longer a set of cards that is set in stone.   In fact the beauty of things now is that Keeper can vary a great deal from deck to deck.   Not just a 2 or 3 cards different like it once was.  

The thing you  need to realize though is…   that this is a good thing…    You really do not need to attack everyone who differs from your design, because the fact that there are different builds now, will ultimately lead to a field that can not hate a certain deck like it once could, due mostly impart to the fact that there is now a high degree of probability that they will not know for certainty which variant of Keeper you are running.

- Grendal

[rozetta]

I think we need a new keeper thread, since there still seem to be things to discuss...

Anyways, I came up with various random builds of Keeper recently while I was shuffling a lot of new ideas around. I finally decided to step back and see how my versions were playing different to other people's versions. So I put Zherbus's most recent build together and did some playtesting this afternoon.

I was pleasantly surprised by the way it performed. I had some thoughts about it on paper, such as the fact that it still contains a lot of 1 and 2 mana spells and hence an early chalice for those ccs cuts off a lot of cards. However, when playing, even if I played out chalices at those numbers with multiple cards in hand being shut down, I was still able to control the game better just by the fact that if the opponent had no immediate threat, it gave me turns to draw solutions.

It's absolutely true that you won't know the effect the chalice is having on an opponent. This weekend I played wMUD in a tournament, and maindecked 4 chalices. I always had to ask my opponents afterwards if the chalices stopped them from playing cards and the answer was pretty much always yes. I'd say that in at least 1 game, it probably saved me from losing.

It's a difficult card to play with - still in testing, I occasionally forget what the chalices are set at and cast a spell which immediately get's countered. The thing is, you don't think about that when you look at the cards in your hand. I think this might also create an advantage against an opponent who might forget about the chalice when planning a series of plays, which will cause them to make a mistake in timimg. Psychologically this may also give the Keeper player an advantage, especially since they are probably more used to operating with the chalices in play.

Naturally, one big factor is knowing your opponent's deck, what cards they most likely have and what cards are the biggest threat to you. Another factor is timing, as some have already pointed out - playing the chalice at the moment that will create the biggest advantage for you is important. Considering what cards you can still draw, what you have in your hand and how vital each card really is. Thinking ahead. But this is all part of playing Keeper anyway. You don't just counter every spell - it's much more strategic, and I think that's one reason why the chalice is likely to be part of Keeper's arsenal.

Another thing is that the mox monkeys have excellent synergy with the chalices, allowing you to destroy a chalice on your opponent's end-step and play your own cards, followed by a new one (if you know it is safe).

I've been on the fence about Chalice maindeck in Keeper, and I still go back and forth about it. It especially depends on what I've most recently tested against. I can't advocate it one way or another right now, but I can say that I'll be testing it maindeck some more to get a better feel for how to play it properly.

[Smmenen]

If you are all so worried about Chalice at 1 - why don't you try my AK keeper from the article?

Steve

[Zherbus]

Ok, Rico first.

Quote What I don't understand is why a Chalice set at 4 mana is in any way better than that scenario you describe.  And isn't that what you all claim to be the number against several decks?

Chalice set at '2', you mean?

The answer is obvious: Chalice set at 0 and 1 stop the faster decks, while holding off to drop chalice for 2 works well against slower decks. Scepter is beautiful against slower decks as I already said. How does this confuse you?

Quote The problem I have with that is by casting the 1cc spells before Chalice is set at 1, your opponent has so much room to cast their own 1cc spells, and then what is Chalice stopping?

That's where being able to play a good game of magic comes in. Is it better to Brainstorm for something or drop Chalice for 1 against Sligh? Is it better to Plow a Shaman, then drop Chalice for 1 against the mirror? Your point walks a very grey area.

Quote That's not exactly a good point to prove your position, because those who aren't keen on Chalice and do post tournaments are winning the tournaments they report.  

It seems the Chalice Keepers are placing lowest in comparison to other Keepers, from what I see.

There are conflicting results right now. Chalice Keeper did better on the Netherlands, where the environment is more powered.

Quote I like this in theory, but in actual practice I didn't see this at all.  The game goes slower, but it's not like Keeper can capitalize on the opponent's slowed state because Chalice slows Keeper itself down to an even slower pace than before.  

It's like saying the turtle would win the race if the rabbit was in a puddle of glue, but the turtle has to go through the same puddle too.

Huh?

Look at every other decks win condition, then look at Keepers.

Quote These two statements tie in together.  

Anybody can see what Chalice does when it works (like stop AK), but I'd like to point out that it is difficult to get Chalice to work too.  I'd say it's more difficult to get Chalice to work effectively against Tog than it is to get Scepter to work effectively, and Scepter is also more rewarding when it resolves than Chalice is.

I think this might be the core of the arguement. How hard is Chalice to get to work against Sligh and Long.dec? It's insanely simple, drop Chalice and go to town. How easy is it to get Scepter rolling against Sligh and Long.dec? Change the decks around now and ask the same question of Dragon and Mud.

Quote Which is ironic, considering you're naming things like 2 against Tog, which requires double the mana that Scepter would.  That leads me to believe that Chalice is the late game card, and Scepter is the early game one.

Against Hulk and Phid, if I've lacked the Shaman I dropped a Chalice for 0 to cut off artifact mana, then went to work with Wastelands. It's usually just a stall tactic until they either deal with it, or don't. A Chalice for 1 was key in building up for a large Decree, since it cut off search and Duress. The Chalice for 2 comes down later, yes, but I never said Scepter was bad in the Hulk matchup...it just never made a difference in my testing at all.

Quote Yes, the fundamental turn is 2, but that doesn't mean there aren't turns after that.  It's not uncommon to have the tide of the game swing back and forth later on.  Scepter is useful for maintaining control after turn 2, but Chalice is much more unreliable.

Either way, I'd really like to know how your Chalices at 2 and 3 come out before that fundamental turn.

As I explained, decks that define the fundimental turn are typically affected by Chalice for 0 or 1.

Now Grendal

Your whole first paragraph was basically what Scepter can do. We know how powerful it can be. Hell, if you are abusing it better than I did, then by all means abuse the hell out of it. I'm trying to share my extensive testing in the new format and you rarely listen to me anyways, so why change now?

Quote Force of Will and Early StP, or more importantly some Wastelands, is what stops Dragon from going off early.   The fact that you have Scepter in your deck hardly detracts from how you will play vs this opponent.

That's exactly what I said about Chalice versus Dragon.

Listen, the Dragon matchup is the least of Keepers worries and you explained perfectly in the above quote why.

Quote Rather I drop a round 1 Scepter imprinting mana drain with a first turn mox/land doesn’t change the fact I may be holding a force of will in hand, or that I may wasteland his Bazaar the following turn.   It only strengthens my position in that turn 2 I know I will have some means of countering and/or digging for answers.   Where as the person without a Scepter, sure could drop a Chalice for 0 hoping to disrupt some of there moxen, but really won’t gain to terribly much vs Dragon.

1) I agree Scepter-Mana Drain would be the best thing ever later on, but the last thing I'd do is tap out against combo turn 1-2 while relying on a lone FoW. If I could keep my hand to hold an STP or even a Brainstorm to shuffle away something I'd need later, I'd rather do that.

2) I'd probably hold on to Chalice rather than drop for 1, but that all depends on the Dragon build I guess.

Quote I think this might be where you are not quite seeing it as I am.   Perhaps you are taking the name “Keeper” to actually mean a certain play style, if that is the case then call the deck I am playing something else, even though it will encompass about 97% of the same card base as your Keeper does.   Your style of play obviously is entirely different from my style of play, and many of those like me who opt to run Scepter.   I unlike you do not seem to think there is anything fundamentally wrong with that.   Your choice to not run Scepter is not fundamentally wrong, nor is it the right choice either.   What I think a lot of people that were formerly Keeper players like yourself fail to realize, is that now Keeper is no longer a set of cards that is set in stone.   In fact the beauty of things now is that Keeper can vary a great deal from deck to deck.   Not just a 2 or 3 cards different like it once was.  

What the hell is this?

No you're absolutely right. I have been trying to bash people outright for playing something different from my own. It certainly wasn't me defending Chalice from the bad press VGB and whoever else were giving it. My Keeper also hasn't changed a damned slot in 3 years. In fact, I once clubbed a 12 year old kid in the back alley of my local shop for playing with one of them new fangled Fire/Ices.

Quote The thing you  need to realize though is…   that this is a good thing…    You really do not need to attack everyone who differs from your design, because the fact that there are different builds now, will ultimately lead to a field that can not hate a certain deck like it once could, due mostly impart to the fact that there is now a high degree of probability that they will not know for certainty which variant of Keeper you are running.

I didn't attack anyone, but I'll be damned if I'm not going to question someone elses 'testing data' against my own when it obviously differs so vastly. I encourage different builds of Keeper. I don't see anywhere where I've typed that my list is the only list to play. Care to show me?

One thing you are right about is that there really should be a few different variants. I think Scepter is enough to make a whole different deck in of itself as BilltheDuck did last weekend. I also like the build that took 3rd(?) in the Netherlands which looks like my pre-mirrodin Keeper with extra artifact removal.

I've been argueing in favor of Chalices usage in Keeper, and explaining my own disappointment in Scepter - nothing else. Stop putting words in to my mouth and making me out to be some sort of Keeper Nazi.

Anyways, I can see that my input and 2 months worth of testing isn't really wanted here, so I'll let you all continue all of the Keeper discussions without me.

[Smmenen]

You are SOOO the Keeper Nazi.   If you don't put that in your sig I'll club you like a 12 year old boy.

Zherb, why are argue with people?  Let them find out for themselves.  You've given it your best shot.
In the words of Watto
"We'll Let Fate Decide"

I think a huge contributing factor is probably the kind of decks you/we've been testing against and the kinds of decks that Jamie/Eric have been testing against.

I am convinced that small deck matchups will Drastically change conclusions about what's good in Keeper.  I think that Eric and Jamie should do what I do - record your games and post them here so we can analyze them.  

I will throw down the gauntlet.  I want Eric or Jamie to open a thread called "Keeper Testing Results" and play games against certain deck with and without chalice for us to fairly analyze.

Steve\n\n

[CrazyCarl]

I'm not going to address any one person in here as I don't really feel like replying to everything I think is wrong.

The problem I think that people have with Chalice is it requires alot more skill to play correctly than almost anything else in Keeper(with the exception of possibly Balance and Twister if you've got the balls to play it).

Against some decks you can simply throw it down for 0 or 1 and pretty much win because of it.  Against other decks (say Hulk, the Mirror, etc), it becomes a bit more difficult to play.  It becomes a matter of playing certain spells before they do, and then try to lock out more of what they could possibly have than you have.  And one of the reasons it's so good in Keeper is you can "turn it off" with Shaman whenever you're tired of it!  So good!

As for Isochron Scepter, I don't know what you guys have been playing against, but it's slow, extremely fragile, and overall not worth more than one slot.  I currently play 1, but that's because it's a) foil and it's pretty and b) I can't find the slots to add a few other cards I would otherwise have in it's place.

I, like Steve, would like to see those player's testing results which show that Chalice isn't worth MD slots in Keeper.  Granted, it's very metagame dependant(say in New England where it's a good idea to possibly just have them in the sideboard as it's the Control Capital of the world).  I'd say generally, it's a better idea to have Chalice MD because it IS good against everything.  It just requires setting up, and it may be alot of work, but it's usually worth it and pays off with disrupting them to a point where they might be unable to do anything about your stuff.

[rozetta]

On the note of Twister, what with the recently increased number of monkeys and strips and the fact that a chalice or two in play gains you good board position, would it be worth considering? Positional twisting might be a better possibility not only because of the above reasons, but also because the game has been slowed down enough. Just a thought that passed through my mind.

[Smmenen]

Actually - that's a very interesting idea.  I might try twister in my keeper again.

Steve

[Ultima]

My My My.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I personally don't think that's its a always a good idea to attack someone for giving their opinions when your asking about something.  Whether or not one agrees is one thing but is all just criticism and I was under the impression that was why we spoke here about this game.  

I do remember a time when I read that forum rules or something or other that this was all about constructive criticism.  I don't think I have ever seen Zherbus reply to something without valid thoughts and ideas.  So if you don't like the criticism then whatever, its not a big deal.

I really don't see the reason for implying Zherbus as this arrogant quintiessential keeper scrutinizer when all that is going on is contructive criticism and if you don't like it then don't ask.  I was under the impression this was all understood.

I can understand that maybe a comment or two can be taken personally but I don't think that warrants all these assumptions being handed out.  Its not such a big deal when you think about it. Now one is losing an informed opinion because this.  That's not right.

I don't know, perhaps I 'm wrong.\n\n

[Blofeld]

Quote (Smmenen @ Oct. 30 2003,10:22)...the current keeper draw engine requires that you destroy the mana base of the opponent to slow the game down so that you decompress the game.  

Chalice does that quite admirably.  Then when you factor in, for actual tournament play, how effective of a hoser it is, it's quite excellent.  It might also be a card you SB out in certain matchups if you are drawing.

I agree on this approach - Chalice is at its very best when facing fast combo - or otherwise speedy decks.
When starting the game vs. Long(er).dec for instance, you'd like to drop the Chalice for 0 during your first turn. Doing this, slows Long down at least a few turns. If Long were to start the same game, they'd empty their hand of zero casting cost spells and possibly go off... An entirely different scenario.

Who gets the first turn might easily decide your sideboard strategy with Chalice. I for one intend to take this into account, when testing sideboarded chalices. No reason to make the "I'm bringin' in the Chalices again!"-move a no-brainer. It might be the better play to leave them out. Even vs. Long (when you're drawing that is).
 
(some might argue that a Chalice for 1 or 2  is in fact the 'better' number vs. Long, and they may be right! - this is however irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make)

@ The discussion regarding Scepter in Keeper:
Making the play: land, Mox, Scepter --> Mana Drain sounds like a risky first turn play in keeper... dropping down to 3 cards in hand with the possibility of losing 2 of these in the first turn to a Null Rod or something (the 3 cards left in hand are UNLIKELY to include FoW and a pitchable card, and thus wont save you).

Against fast decks, Chalice can work wonders while Scepter does little. (I'd rather have a StP in hand vs. Dragon, than imprint one on a scepter!)
Both cards - Scepter as well as Chalice - are good in the mid-late game. The Scepter being stronger the longer it stays in play.
Overall I would think that the current average speed of decks would make Chalice the better choice.
(This is solely based on theory - I have no testing to back this up.)