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Author Topic: [Article] What's the best deck post mirrodin?  (Read 3716 times)
VideoGameBoy
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« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2003, 08:26:14 pm »

Quote
Quote Overall I would think that the current average speed of decks would make Chalice the better choice.

Except who has the sheer cojones to play Long in this environment?

Not I.
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Rico Suave
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« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2003, 08:44:05 pm »

Quote from: Zherbus+Oct. 30 2003,16:57
Quote (Zherbus @ Oct. 30 2003,16:57)Chalice set at '2', you mean?

The answer is obvious: Chalice set at 0 and 1 stop the faster decks, while holding off to drop chalice for 2 works well against slower decks. Scepter is beautiful against slower decks as I already said. How does this confuse you?
The only "faster" deck Scepter doesn't work against is Long.

But even then, how many Long.decs have you seen lately?  It doesn't seem to be a factor at all.

Quote
Quote That's where being able to play a good game of magic comes in. Is it better to Brainstorm for something or drop Chalice for 1 against Sligh? Is it better to Plow a Shaman, then drop Chalice for 1 against the mirror? Your point walks a very grey area.

Yes, it mostly depends on the circumstances.

Let me try and illustrate it.  By playing Brainstorm then Chalice at 1, it gives the sligh player an entire extra turn to drop 1cc spells.  Chalice isn't stopping their spells then.

But, by playing Chalice at 1, it nullifies the Brainstorm which would dig for answers to the threats they already have on the board.

So either way, the cards are not performing up to their full potential.  It's more along the lines of a lose-lose situation, as opposed to what is the best move at a given point in time.  

Quote
Quote There are conflicting results right now. Chalice Keeper did better on the Netherlands, where the environment is more powered.

No, Keeper without Chalice achieved 3rd.  The highest placing Chalice Keeper got 7th.

Which differs a bit from first place.

Quote
Quote Huh?

Look at every other decks win condition, then look at Keepers.

To clarify that statement: because it is symmetrical, the idea that it will make the opponent play Keeper's game is only half the equation.  It will also make Keeper play an even slower game, and I just wanted to add the whole picture instead of leaving it at that.

Quote
Quote I think this might be the core of the arguement. How hard is Chalice to get to work against Sligh and Long.dec? It's insanely simple, drop Chalice and go to town. How easy is it to get Scepter rolling against Sligh and Long.dec? Change the decks around now and ask the same question of Dragon and Mud.

Those first two decks are why I bring in Chalice from the board.

I will admit it's hard to get Scepter working against Long (wherever it is played), but it's very easy to get it online against sligh.  

I would also say it's very difficult to get Chalice to work against Dragon/MUD, especially when going second.  Scepter just goes down and imprints something decent.  

Quote
Quote Against Hulk and Phid, if I've lacked the Shaman I dropped a Chalice for 0 to cut off artifact mana, then went to work with Wastelands. It's usually just a stall tactic until they either deal with it, or don't. A Chalice for 1 was key in building up for a large Decree, since it cut off search and Duress. The Chalice for 2 comes down later, yes, but I never said Scepter was bad in the Hulk matchup...it just never made a difference in my testing at all.

It never made a difference?  

When I played against Tog, every single game that a Scepter resolved, I won.  

Quote
Quote One thing you are right about is that there really should be a few different variants. I think Scepter is enough to make a whole different deck in of itself as BilltheDuck did last weekend.

I agree.  Not necessarily totally different, but it requires a bit more tuning than Chalice does.

Quote
Quote Anyways, I can see that my input and 2 months worth of testing isn't really wanted here, so I'll let you all continue all of the Keeper discussions without me.

I appreciate your input.  I am just as inclined as you are to question results which don't match my own experiences.

Smmenen, about the AK in Keeper, it would make Chalice at 1 easier to handle, but it makes 2 even worse.  

Additionally, setting numbers on Chalice aside, is the AK Keeper as a whole better than the other version?  You said in your article that  

Anyway, I will gladly go over some testing analysis.  Do you care which decklist I use?
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Grendal
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« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2003, 08:29:28 am »

Quote
Quote When I played against Tog, every single game that a Scepter resolved, I won.
I found very much the same result as you did Rico.   In that Scepter just seemed more solid.

I to played the Chalice version of Keeper, both JP and Zherbus's version when they were listed.   I by no means hated Chalice, I found it a very good card in Keeper.   But what I found when I moved to a build with straight Scepters was that Scepter when it came down in the matches where I had before wanted to play Chalice, I found that it was just as strong, if not stronger in most cases.

Chalice vs Dragon just isn't that good, other than if you can perhaps drop it round 1 to stunt there mana development, yet as well all know a Dragon player really only needs to drop and use a Bazaar one time to pretty much be back on track manawise.   This is a match where I found Scepter stronger.

Against tog I kept hearing about Chalice being preached, and I will give Zherbus credit, the games screeched to a grinding halt.   We played at a snails pace, and perhaps it was a bit in Keeper's favor, although I certainly never felt it was.   However take those very same matchups and insert me dropping a Scepter into play at approximatly the same time I would drop a Chalice (Very Early) and I found myself winning games quite easily.  Where as before with Chalice I didn't quite feel that overwhelming sense of control, it always seemed like both Keeper and Tog were in top deck mode, yet with Scepter on the table I felt like a steamroller in that I just ran Hulk over like he wasn't even there.  All it takes is one imprinted Mana Drain - Impulse - Fire/Ice - etc...  and then that age old question of rather or not Keeper can outdraw Hulk becomes a big "Oh Yeah".

Tog no longer can afford to duress and pull counters, because they really can't risk you getting a scepter out, they have to instead opt to take a Isochron via a duress, which is fine by me.   I tried this match with I believe an identical copy of Zherbus's build when he first posted it, and I just didn't find Chalices to be as (game breaking) as people were claiming.

Both cards are early and late game cards...   The arguement that one can be dropped early and one can not is rubbish.   Right now with most artifact hate being sideboard option and/or in the form of Gorilla Shaman, a early Scepter resolving will 99% of the time get to its 1st use, and probably a 2nd or 3rd use as well prior to an opponent being able to cunning wish into a solution, and at that time it is just to late.

People are however warping the arguement in that I am by no means saying that I would rather have Scepter over Chalice vs Long.   Hands down I would prefer to have Chalice...  but thats only 1 match...  its a match I certainly don't expect to see that often now that Chalice is present, nor do I want to weaken myself in the control mirror because I opted to pack Chalice.

Chalice is just another version of Balance in Keeper.   In that you rarely if ever actually use Balance, but those few times you do it actually is a very strong play.   How many Keeper players opt to sideboard Balance out in the control mirror?  I know quite a few that do...   Of course I'm not so sure now days with Decree being the primary kill thats going to happen anymore :/

- Grendal
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PucktheCat
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« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2003, 09:17:28 am »

I did some testing last night - one thing I think is being neglected in this discussion is how well Chalice (set at 0) interacts with two Keeper cards: Mana Drain and Wasteland.

Wasteland:  How many decks are out there that can lose half their mana base and be fine with it?  Chaliceing out Lotus and Moxen and having five strips makes them find out.  MANY T1 decks rely on playing fairly expensive cards based on some kind of mana acceleration.  Chalice and Wasteland effectively combat ALL acceleration that is prevelent in the format except for . . .

Mana Drain:  How often has it been said that having UU available as soon as possible is key for Keeper?  With a Chalice in play turn two suddenly feels like it is soon enough again, for the first time in a while.  There just aren't very many broken plays that can be made first turn without fast mana.  By locking out Moxen you essentially eliminate the disadvantage of the double colored requirement in Mana Drain's casting cost.  As if that wasn't enough Mana Drain is also the best source of big mana boosts in the early turns that is left when you eliminate artifact mana.  This means you get broken plays turn three and they likely don't.

The result of all this is that I found Chalice to be a great play against wMUD.  I hadn't expected that at all.

Leo
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Grendal
Guest
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2003, 12:35:21 am »

Smmenen in another thread suggested that some of us testing with various builds of Keeper, namely that of the Scepter build, start a thread where we could post our findings, and perhaps iron out what makes a good Scepter Keeper build.

My first post no doubt will be unlike anything I think some of you would imagine.   I recently designed a Scepter Keeper deck for a friend of mine to compete in a proxy tournament over the weekend.   He had a dismal display at best, and even I myself did not find the deck capable of winning vs a SeniŰr Stompy deck towards the end of the evening that I play tested against.

The Deck is as follows:

\\Draw_Search
3   Isochron Scepter
1   Skeletal Scrying
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Fact or Fiction
2   Cunning Wish
1   Mystical Tutor
3   Brainstorm
4   Impulse
1   Yawgmoth's Will
1   Time Walk

\\Control
1   Balance
1   Swords to Plowshares
2   Decree of Justice
4   Mana Drain
4   Force of Will
1   Gorilla Shaman
1   Fire/Ice

\\Mana
1   Black Lotus
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Pearl
1   Mox Jet
1   Library of Alexandria
1   Sol Ring
1   Strip Mine
3   Wastelands
3   Polluted Delta
2   Flooded Strand
3   Tundra
2   Underground Sea
3   Volcanic Island
1   Tolarian Academy

\\Sideboard
1   Disenchant
1   Swords to Plowshares
1   Orim's Chant
1   Coffin Purge
1   The Abyss
2   Red Elemental Blast
1   Rack and Ruin
1   Fire/Ice
1   Hero's Reunion
3   Tormod's Crypt
2   Chalice of the Void


I was rather disappointed at the decks performance at the end of the night.   I had highly anticipated the deck making at the very least the top 8 in a field of virtually all scrubby players, but the deck chumped out at I believe 11th place, and did not make the final cut.   A great deal of the decks failure can certainly be contributed to the fact the pilot of the deck was about 6 years rusty, but as I said above, even I myself found that a Stompy match was an extremely difficult matchup.

Although I think the deck in the hands of a capable pilot more up to speed with the metagame (myself for example) could have made the top 8, I do not believe I would have made it much past the top 4, and I most certainly would not have won the tournament given a very well built Dragon and SuperGro deck were both present.

There were quite a few decks running Chalice of the Void at the tournament, including the dragon player who actually dropped a chalice of the void for 1 on the 1st turn against Goblin Sligh, needless to say the Goblin Sligh player scooped instantly.

Having not gotten a chance to play much competitive type 1 since Worlds, Iíve notice a couple things that I have certainly missed.   DuressÖ  omg I never imagined how not in control it feels to not have this card in the deck.   Duress and I believe Cunning Wish will certainly be making an appearance in my next test.   I donít like Cunning Wish at 2, I think at the very least it is a 3 of card.   I also still put a lot of faith behind DuressÖ   which now leaves me to wonder how much emphasis, if any I will have on the Scepter and/or Chalice in the deck.   Scepter was a very solid card at times, and at other times it was defiantly a card that seemed a little to abundant in my friends hands.   I think had the number of Scepters been 2 in the deck, and a whole lot less emphasis on getting something good  (brainstorm / impulse) on one of them, that I think the deck as a whole would have performed a whole hell of a lot better.

I am still not convince that this warrants Chalice in the deck, but I am wondering if a more straight up Keeper build might not be the way to go.   Iím going to experiment with some other builds both with and without the Scepter, as well as trying a main deck chalice as well.    Well thus far I have one tourneyís worth of testing into the deck, granted not by my hands, but still it put up a dismal enough display to certainly bring me back to the drawing boards.

Iím eager to hear other peoples testing results with both Scepter and Chalice, and to see variations of the build.

- Grendal
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