Deck Tech: GAT, SuperGro/Gro

[Ric_Flair]

Intro[/u]
I am a fan of debates as much as the next guy, but it seems that at some point we should actually do what the site was designed to do--discuss decks, post testing results, and try to tweak decks.  So I am starting this thread to discuss SuperGro/Gro decks in the current Vintage metagame.  I know that many people are keeping tech secret, as you should, for the TMD Open.  What I am trying to do is to gather up the spare tech, from those of us not going (sad is me) and start the discussion for after the Open.  Basically, I want to work on this deck.

Why Gro?  First, I loved the deck when it was in 1.x.  The flexibility of the cards and the fun of killing with creatures was too much.  Second, I look at the deck as an intermediate step between true budget decks like Sligh and Sui to the more expensive decks like Keeper, wMUD, and the rest.  As I am starting to acquire more expensive cards I want to change the deck I play.  Sui gets old really fast.  Third, I think that Gro, while not in the uppermost tier of Vintage decks, is a solid tier 1.5/2 deck.  It is also a good deck to take to a tournament where there is the potential that not everyone is powered.  The deck does well against Sui and has game against Sligh.  Also, unlike many of the other aggro decks in the format, it is not crippled by Chalice.  

Recent Decklists with Players and Finishes[/b]

Talavera de la Reina, 59 Players
10/12/2003

Enrique Maldonado, T8, 4th
Creature Heavy Metagame, SuperGro

1 Mox Emerald
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Foil
4 Force of Will
1 Gush
4 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Opt
4 Sleight of Hand
1 Timetwister
4 Quirion Dryad
1 Regrowth
4 Mystic Enforcer
1 Balance
4 Swords to Plowshares

Land:
4 Flooded Strand
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Windswept Heath

SB:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Energy Flux
4 Powder Keg
3 Seal of Cleansing

Heidelberg, 21 Players
10/11/2003

Daniel Huzsar, T8, 6th
GAT

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Duress
1 Ebony Charm
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Daze
2 Deep Analysis
4 Force of Will
1 Gush
4 Mana Drain
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Opt
1 Time Walk
4 Quirion Dryad
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Psychatog

Lands:
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

SB:
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Berserk
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Coffin Purge
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Energy Flux
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Naturalize
3 Null Rod
2 Red Elemental Blast

Duelman, 84 Players
10/19/2003

Maxim Barkman, T8, 4th
DarkSeed

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Duress
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
1 Gush
3 Mana Drain
1 Merchant Scroll
3 Opt
1 Time Walk
4 Quirion Dryad
3 Meddling Mage
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Seal of Cleansing
2 Swords to Plowshares

Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

SB:
1 Balance
1 Coffin Purge
1 Disenchant
1 Duress
1 Naturalize
1 Null Rod
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Sacred Ground
2 Skeletal Scrying
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Vampiric Tutor

Duelman, 97 Players
9/28/03

Danial Haszur, T8, 5th Place
GAT/r

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Duress
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
1 Gush
4 Mana Drain
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Opt
1 Time Walk
4 Quirion Dryade
1 Fire/Ice
2 Psychatog

Lands:
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

SB:
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Berserk
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Coffin Purge
2 Energy Flux
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Misdirection
1 Naturalize
3 Null Rod
3 Red Elemental Blast

Worlds Side Event
8/9/03

Maxim Barkman, 6-1
DarkSeed

1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
1 Cunning Wish
2 Daze
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
1 Gush
1 Merchant Scroll
2 Misdirection
3 Opt
1 Peek
1 Time Walk
4 Quirion Dryad
3 Meddling Mage
2 Mystic Enforcer
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Swords to Plowshares

Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra

SB:
1 Balance
1 Counterspell
2 Deep Analysis
1 Intuition
1 Meddling Mage
1 Misdirection
1 Naturalize
2 Null Rod
2 Sacred Ground
1 Seal of Cleansing
2 Swords to Plowshares

POST WATERBURY DECKS

Waterbury, TMD Open, 110 people
11/16/03

Ben Taraskevich, 2nd Place
GAT

2 Psychatog
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
3 Durress
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Vampric Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
2 Cunning WIsh
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Regrowth
1 Gush
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Demonic TUtor
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox EMerald
1 Mox Saphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Island
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

SB:
2 Naturalize
1 Annul
1 Zuran Orb
2 Coffin Purge
2 Null Rod
1 BEB
1 Stifle
1 Berserk
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Smother

Waterbury, TMD Open, 110 people
11/16/03

Stephen Houdlette with GAT
7th Place

SEE ANALYSIS BELOW[/b] Thanks

1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Psychatog
1 Gorilla Shaman
3 Quirion Dryad
2 Fire/Ice
2 Isochron Scepter
3 Cunning Wish
2 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Future Sight
1 Yawgmoth's Will

SB:
2 Hydroblast
2 Pyroblast
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Stifle
1 Coffin Purge
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Crumble
1 Berserk
1 Naturalize
1 FOF
1 Smother


My Version, amended 11/20/03 [/b]

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Dryad
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Sleight of Hand
2 STP
2 Seal of Cleansing
3 Meddling Mage
2 Enforcers
2 Misdirection
2 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral
1 Timewalk
1 Gush
1 Regrowth
1 Mox Peal
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald

Land:
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island

SB:
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Berserk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Stifle
1 Moment's Peace
2 Sacred Ground
1 Balace
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt

Analysis[/b]

The lists above show three sorts of variations:  SuperGro, GAT, and GAT/r.  The fact that the deck can easily support four colors makes it very flexible.  Interestingly, there are really two different kinds of decks--the traditional aggro-control version (with and without Black) and a more controlling version that uses Counterspell or Mana Drain.  I can see the merits of both.  I prefer the aggro-control version, but I don't have enough experience to rule one version superior.  So I am posting to see what other people have found.

I have played the deck for a little more than two months now.  I have played against a Hulk deck, a Keeper Variant, and a wMUD deck.  The deck performs well when it gets Force of Will off the draw.  It does not, however, fair well when the opponent is using non-redirectable card drawing or Metalworker.  I would really like to play a combo deck like Long or Dragon when the other player is good.  

I am still not sure about the colors that belong in the deck.  Black is clearly a good addition and probably would be better than White, but the Swords are so handy, so often.  Maybe it is because of the scrubby meta (aside from Jacob and Jeff), but White seems better for now.  When the metagame gets better or I can go to more Power tournaments I will probably drop the White in favor of Black.  Still, I think both versions can do well, as the result above show.  

The SB is still very much up in the air.  I think, unless you are going to Duelman, you need to be able to deal with Sligh convincingly.  The BEB's in the board allow for that.  I like the Wish slots for the most part, but I would like something better against combo than Gilded Light.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Questions[/b]

How much does Chalice effect the deck?  I had switched the Opts for AKs before Chalice, but know I think there is no going back.  AK spreads out the curve a bit, something this deck needs.

Which is better Sleight of Hand or Opt?  I have found in playing the deck that Sleight of Hand is almost always better.  With the high number of free counters the fact that Sleight is a sorcery makes almost no difference.  If you have testing that shows otherwise, I would love to see it.

What can I put in the slot for Mystic Enforcer?  This guy is okay, but I would prefer something a bit stronger.  Any suggestions?

Is it possible to splash Red into SuperGro for Fire/Ice and some tasty SB treats (RED and Artifact Mutation)?  If so what does the deck look like?

Controllish version or Aggro Control Gro.  Which is better?

For the purposes of this thread I would like to confine the discussion to ideas and testing results.  Theory is best posted elsewhere.  I would specifically like Grand Inquistator's comments seeing as he is still running GAT, so far as I know.  American results would also be cool.  The Europeans are so much more organized than we are with the decklists.

Post Waterbury Analysis[/b]

Despite the fact that many people felt that Dragon was a poor match up for the Gro decks that did not include StP, the results demonstrate otherwise.  I think that it is very interesting to see how well the deck is doing, especially given that scant attention it gets compared to Keeper, which had 24 decks played, none of which made the Top 8, Long, and other more prominent decks.  I guess this is our secret.  Too bad for everyone else.  GAT had 4 players and half made the Top 8.  I would appreciate any insights that GI had on why the deck is so successful, but still not played.  Also comments on why GAT decks without STP still had game against Dragon, despite what the pundits have said.  Good job both GAT players. 

Thanks for any input you may have.

PS: Got the Ancestral.  It is BETA.  \n\n

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote I would specifically like Grand Inquistator's comments

and yet, you don't post my decklist, no respect  

Quote I think that Gro, while not in the uppermost tier of Vintage decks, is a solid tier 1.5/2 deck

careful


Ever since I joined this site, and saw Acolyte and Rogue's Emerald Alice build, I felt that 'gro' decks are one of the most effective strategies in T1.  The fact that they're generally inexpensive to build was a boon.

When Gush was unrestricted, but before GAT was the hottest thing since sliced bread, you could make the case that the Uwg, and the Ug versions were both equally competitive depending on metagame.

Quote I am still not sure about the colors that belong in the deck

Once the synergies between Gush, Yawgmoth's Will, and Fastbond were revealed, it became clear that black is the choice tertiary color for an optimal build.  This doesn't mean that versions with white aren't good decks, they're just not as good as ones with black.  White traditionally added spot removal in the forms of swords to plowshares and disenchant.  With the printing of naturalize, and the ability for GAT to basically go combo against creature-based decks with berserk, white became unnecessary.

Now with Gush as a one-of, the deck loses some of its speed and card draw, but it also becomes more stable and resilient.

Quote Controllish version or Aggro Control Gro.  Which is better?

I'm biased in that I've never liked the versions with 8+ cantrips and no hard counters.  The build I've played recently (posted below) uses mana drains in place of dazes and misdirections, and accumulated knowledge in place of sleight of hand or opt (by the way, you're right, sleight of hand is better).

I like the more controllish versions for the following reasons:

1) card quality- aggressive versions run counters that are highly situational.  if they don't draw a threat early, these end up being sub-optimal control elements and lose you games.

2) better mana base- this isn't a given, but aggressive builds tend to run well below 20 sources in order to increase their threat count, and to have blue cards in hand to pitch.  this worked much better when Gush was unrestricted.

3) better use of tempo- aggressive builds that run upwards of 8 cantrips tend to spend much of their time cycling through their deck.  this is great if you have a dryad on the table.  if you don't, you're using extremely inefficient search spells to find a threat.  in my build, each card is powerful in and of itself, so while its better to brainstorm and AK while a dryad is in play, they also draw lots of cards on their own.

This is the list that I was using pre-mirrodin:

"Janky in a Good Way"

Creatures (6)
2 Psychatog
4 Quirion Dryad

Counter/Answer (13)
1 Divert
1 Daze
1 Powder Keg
2 Misdirection
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

Broken (4)
1 Time Walk
1 Fastbond
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Future Sight

Draw/Search (16)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gush
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
2 Cunning Wish
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm

ManaSources (21)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Strip Mine
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand

SB (15)
1 Misdirection
1 Berserk
1 Naturalize
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Coffin Purge
2 Smother
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Duress
2 Tormod's Crypt


You'll notice that there are a number of one-of's that may look out of place.  This is something I took away from the italian builds I saw: just because you want to run a given card, doesn't mean its necessarily good enough to run more than one.  Mostly these are the situational cards (daze, powder keg).  Future Sight is something that I've loved in other decks, and so I stretched the mana base to support it.  I'm not going to say much more, as most of the card choice discussion can be found in the EVF thread.

I'm currently working on a four color version that tries to use scepters, runs more land, and looks a lot more like hulk that wins with dryads.  I'm not going to post it, as its not even closed to tested, and so far hasn't proved itself any better than the three color version.

I'm going to test your build before I give feedback on it, but please don't understimate the power of yawgmoth's will.

[Rebel428]

I've been playing GATr a lot lately, and I would like to state a few observations/notes.

1.  This might just be because of my rather scrubby metagame, but I've found that I can't run fewer than three (and preferably four) Psychatogs.  I tend to use my Dryads to trade for stuff like Negators, Shades, or dual-Rancored/Bonesplitter-equipped Rogue Elephants early on, buying time for me to swing for the win with Psychatog.  

2.  This might also be due to my metagame, but I really like red in addition to U/g/b.  Fire/Ice is very useful, and being able to run Rack and Ruin, Meltdown, and REB is quite nice.  

One thing that might be a problem for you, however (and really wasn't a problem for me, since I lack Moxen) is finding room for the Volcanics.

3.  I see that your build only runs two Cunning Wish.  I run three, and I'm not even considering cutting down to two; it's such a flexible card that I feel every non-Fish blue-based deck should run at least three copies.

4.  Finding something helpful against Chalice Black would be nice.  I've played this matchup several times; while I pretty much always won, the games were nailbitingly close and I'm pretty sure I only won because of lucky topdecks and playing skill.

5.  Why Divert over a third Misdirection?

6.  What are your thoughts about squeezing in a Zuran Orb?  I am considering trying it.  However, considering that the deck is very land-light, I realize that it is a completely dead card without Fastbond.\n\n

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

As I helped Maxim tune all the Gro-decks he played in T1 and having played a GATr variant last Dülmen, I think I can actually comment on this.

I personally think it's really metagame dependant, which is the best of the Gro-decks. For powered metagames I feel GATr and Dark Seed (SuperGro with Black) are the best builds. If you have low power (few combo and stax decks) SuperGro with white is better than DarkSeed, though, as Duress is uneccessary than.

Quote I'm currently working on a four color version that tries to use scepters, runs more land, and looks a lot more like hulk that wins with dryads.  I'm not going to post it, as its not even closed to tested, and so far hasn't proved itself any better than the three color version.

This sounds exactly like what I played last Dülmen, so keep that in mind when I'm talking about GATr.
 
GATr in my experience is pretty good against any kind of control and non-Bazar based combo and even Stax (ok, my version had 22 or 23 lands...), but looses to anything with Bazaar (reanimator, dragon, madness). I won't play Sight, though, as even with my giantic manabase I didn't cast it once in Dülmen.

DarkSeed has StP to make Reanimator easy and Dragon and Madness managable but looses more often to Stax (missing Artifact Mutation, less lands). Duress makes it at least as good against Long, if not better (meddling mage).

random other stuff:

AK is just necessary, as you don't have enough carddraw otherwise.
Post-Mirrodin remember to play at least one Crumble SB, as CotV 2 wrecks you badly.
In my experience, Fastbond just doesn't do enough without Gush.
Daze, imo, is so much worse than Duress, that it would be enough to splash B into SuperGro for Duress only. Will is just the icing on the cake, but it still does win games on it's own *g*. It's a lot worse without Lotus, though.
19 Mana including Lotus is easily enough to run SuperGro, Maxim is almost never manascrewed, even though it hurt a little against stax.
If your metagame is similarly infested with Bazaars and Welders as Dülmen is atm, StP is godlike and enough reason to play white on it's own.
Mana Drains/Counterspells are close to mandatory, as you need more than 4 hardcounters against decks like Dragon or Stax, which have enough mana to play around daze quite often. Mana Drain is better if you run black and more Wishes (higher mana-demand), Counterspell is good in 3 Color Gro, but Mana Drain is untested by Max and me there, as we switched the deck to 4 colors and later added the Drains, so it might still be superior to Counterspell.  
Because I feel Mana Drain to be mandatory, I also think that Opt is better than Sleight.

[Ric_Flair]

@ GI:  Sorry, I could not find a current list of your deck.  Thanks for posting.

@Mons:  I am so glad you posted.  Dark Seed is an interesting idea.  Your insights were very helpful.

Good to see a T8 finish in a recent, post Mirrodin tournament in America.

Add Decklist:

Kansas City Tournament, 11/1/03
5th-8th
Jess Peterson

4 Quiron Dryad
3 Psychatog
1 Regrowth
1 yawgmoth's Will
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Cunning Wish
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledges
2 Duress
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

SB:

1 Hibernation
1 Misdirection
1 Berserk
1 Gush
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Smother
2 Stifle
2 Ebony Charm
2 Naturalize
2 Blue Elemental Blast

Notice the trend towards an increased number of mana sources.  GAT and Hulk seem to be merging.  Is this due to Hulk's vunerability to Chalice?  I am not sure.  

I am looking for some more American decks.   Any help?

[Rando]

That's my list from Sunday.  My reasoning for running at least 2 more mana sources then most lists was because I was running AK over Opt so that I would not be screwed over by Chalice for 1.  I felt with the 2cc AK's in there I'd need a higher mana count for everything to go smoothly.

If I had the chance to do it again, I'd have put more control elements for an aggro match in the sideboard.  Maddness in the top 8 ate me alive.  Though my creatures get big, Maddness's creatures start out huge.  I'm not sure what added  removal I could have played, though...maybe another Pernicious Deed?  Wonder was also a pain.

My one loss in the swiss was to Steve M. and Long.dec.  Something needs to be done about that deck.  I lost on turn three the first game and turn two the second.  Force of Will or not, you just can't keep up with that kind of speed unless you're extreemly lucky.

jp\n\n

[Ric_Flair]

Working on the board is an issue.  Can Stifle save you against Long?  I have also thought of running Arcane Lab, but that is too slow.  Also a thought, Gilded Light, or Orim's Chant, but these are options for Gro running white.  As for the Madness match up I think that Terror, even Vendetta, is a good option for Gro with B or GAT, while Reprisal is an awesome choice for Gro with W after STPs have been exhausted.

I am running a standard U/W/g SuperGro deck right now and here is the board I have pieced together after some testing on App and Jeff's tournament this past weekend:

1 Berserk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Disenchant
1 Crumble
1 STP
4 Stifle
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 BEB

I would like to work in Sacred Ground for the Ankh Sligh match up that is inevitable in a scrubby meta.  Any thoughts on more artifact destruction?\n\n

[Rando]

If I were smart I would have played 4 Stifle in the 'board.  I sided in the two I had for the Long match, but I only was holding one when he duressed it away...and no other counter magic.  

Over all, Stifle was golden all day, from countering Powderkeg activations that would have otherwise wrecked me to stopping potentialy dangerous Wastelands.  It's simply great.

jp

[Ultima]

I played against madness a few times and won simply because I sided in chalice and played it at 0.  this stunted madness long enough for my guys to get bigger than theirs and put madness on the defensive.

I do think that wastelands are a big need however in this metagame for GAT and was wondering if anyone else had an opinion.

I spoke to GI about this in the past but he maintains that the optimal mana count is around 21 for the 3 color version with black.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Just a little deck analysis here.  The following are the results of looking at the more credible lists offered by Ric_Flair.  You'll notice, I'm only addressing decks that are Ubg or Ubgr.  I believe the approach of decks splashing white is different enough (creature base, counterbase, sideboard) so that they are in a separate category.  Also, the majority of my experience is with the aforementioned versions.

In this breakdown I've isolated the key cards, and grouped them by function.  I also mention what cards were not concensus picks in each category.

Creatures
standard   
2   Psychatog
4   Quirion Dryad
unique
Some versions run Psychatog #3.  I think anymore than 2, and you're running an inefficient answer to aggro that could be taken up by other answers or cunning wish.  Hulk simply uses this better as a blocker.
   
Answers
Standard
4   Force of Will
4   Mana Drain
unique
There are usually 4-5 additional slots allocated to Duress, Pernicious Deed, or Fire/Ice.  I've also advocated Powder Keg and Divert depending on play-style.

Broken
Standard
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Time Walk
1   Yawgmoth's Will
Unique
The largest issue to resolve here, is whether Gush should be an automatic maindeck choice, or if it should be wishable.  I run Fastbond and Future Sight to give my build a more combo-esque feel.  Some have tried Fact or Fiction or Deep Analysis for additional card drawing, but I feel these to be a poor return on investment when compared with Future Sight.

Tutor
Standard   
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Demonic Tutor
2   Cunning Wish
1   Merchant Scroll
Unique
Mystical Tutor was in most builds, but left out of others.  I feel its essential to find additional AK's since we don't use Intuition.  For that matter, has anyone tested a single Intuition?  Many builds run Cunning Wish #3, do people really think its that great?  Do people ever have trouble casting it?  Would this cause Gush to be moved to the SB?  Regrowth has also been used, but I think in a deck this redundant, it just doesn't cut it.
   
Search
Standard   
4   Accumulated Knowledge
4   Brainstorm
Unique
Some builds run either Sleight of Hand or Opt as additional search, but I feel they are too weak on their own, and I've been happy with the manabase without them.  I'd be happy to hear feedback from others on this.

Mana
Standard   
1   Library of Alexandria
1   Black Lotus
1   Island
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Sapphire
4   Polluted Delta
3   Tropical Island
3   Underground Sea
Unique
This is the category that is most dependent on the rest of the deck.  I want to pose a few interrelated questions to those who are testing this archetype:
1) Do you think its worth it to push this deck as close to 20 sources as possible?  I find that this greatly helps in the control and combo matchups, while hurting against workshop and aggro.
2) If blue, green and black are definite, is it worth it to splash either white or red?  Doing so will probably increase the mana count (reduced threat density), while decreasing the mana stability.  I find that while red adds REB's, duress is good enough.  Where red really helps is in the artifact hate department (rack and ruin, art.mutation).  I haven't seen anything about a 4-color with white splash (dark seed?), so I can't really comment on it.
3) How important are artifact acceleration or strips (since these usually round out the last few spots).  Would you rather see Wasteland or Sol Ring?

These are the main issues I see for coming to a 'consensus' dryad build.  Obviously metagame and playstyle are the lowest common denominator, but these are worth asking and hopefully answering.  Your thoughts?

[Rebel428]

Quote
Some versions run Psychatog #3.  I think anymore than 2, and you're running an inefficient answer to aggro that could be taken up by other answers or cunning wish.  Hulk simply uses this better as a blocker.

While this is a good point, I still believe that running at least three is safer.  It's a decent blocker, yes; but I also find myself pitching it to FoW/Mis-D (instead of, say, a crucial card drawer), and it's nice to be able to rely on drawing it when I need to.

Gorilla Shaman might be a consideration if you run red, depending on exactly how widely-played Chalice of the Void becomes.

Quote
The largest issue to resolve here, is whether Gush should be an automatic maindeck choice, or if it should be wishable.  I run Fastbond and Future Sight to give my build a more combo-esque feel.  Some have tried Fact or Fiction or Deep Analysis for additional card drawing, but I feel these to be a poor return on investment when compared with Future Sight.

I have rarely (if ever) wished that Gush was in my sideboard to be a Cunning Wish target.  There is almost always something better to wish for.

Fact or Fiction will rarely get cast without Mana Drain mana, and Deep Analysis isn't so hot without Intuition.  

Quote
Mystical Tutor was in most builds, but left out of others.  I feel its essential to find additional AK's since we don't use Intuition.  For that matter, has anyone tested a single Intuition?  Many builds run Cunning Wish #3, do people really think its that great?  Do people ever have trouble casting it?  Would this cause Gush to be moved to the SB?  Regrowth has also been used, but I think in a deck this redundant, it just doesn't cut it.

I've tried running a single Intuition.  It seemed rather situational;  I no longer run it, but I can't really think of a good reason not to.  

Three Cunning Wish has been nothing short of great; I personally have never had trouble casting it.  However, for reasons stated earlier, running three doesn't cause Gush to be moved to the SB.

My deck has had Regrowth in it since the restriction of Gush.  To be honest, it hasn't really done anything particularly spectacular; it almost always targets Ancestral Recall, and tends to just sit in my hand if there isn't one in the graveyard.  I simply haven't really found anything to put in its place, but it will probably leave for another land.

Quote
Some builds run either Sleight of Hand or Opt as additional search, but I feel they are too weak on their own, and I've been happy with the manabase without them.  I'd be happy to hear feedback from others on this.

I no longer run the Sleight of Hand or Opt myself - AK has proven to be more effective.  While the one-mana spells are slightly better early on, they are rather useless to draw past the early game.  AK is always a welcome draw, regardless of the stage of the game.  

Quote 1) Do you think its worth it to push this deck as close to 20 sources as possible?  I find that this greatly helps in the control and combo matchups, while hurting against workshop and aggro.
2) If blue, green and black are definite, is it worth it to splash either white or red?  Doing so will probably increase the mana count (reduced threat density), while decreasing the mana stability.  I find that while red adds REB's, duress is good enough.  Where red really helps is in the artifact hate department (rack and ruin, art.mutation).  I haven't seen anything about a 4-color with white splash (dark seed?), so I can't really comment on it.
3) How important are artifact acceleration or strips (since these usually round out the last few spots).  Would you rather see Wasteland or Sol Ring?

I believe that 22-23 is a good number, but I run red and lack Moxen.  

As I said earlier, I believe in the red splash, and largely because of the artifact hate it offers.  I use Meltdown and Rack & Ruin, and am considering Gorilla Shaman and Artifact Mutation.

I run a lone Strip Mine and Sol Ring.  The deck really dislikes missing colored mana drops, so I don't really think Wasteland should be included.  Sol Ring has been very helpful in casting Cunning Wish, Future Sight, and Yaawgmoth's Will, and has been 100% worth its slot.

[Ric_Flair]

Quote Standard
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
unique
There are usually 4-5 additional slots allocated to Duress, Pernicious Deed, or Fire/Ice.  I've also advocated Powder Keg and Divert depending on play-style.

GI I make the following observations with only a small bit of experience (two months) so bear with me.  

The original version of Gro was a difficult deck to play because it controlled the game only to the point necessary to win.  Your version seems to be more like a low mana Hulk deck than a true Gro deck, not that this is an issue...orthodoxy be damned.  I have found that I prefer the ability to explode on people early and without the use of Berserk.  With 8 free counters and Sleight of Hand I have been able to do this.  I imagine that your controllish version is far better in the long run, but I have had some success avoiding "the long run" and just going for the throat.  

Perhaps some specifics instead of general rambling.

1) Does Mana Drain help in the combo match up?  If so how?  

2) Does the increased mana base take away from the "always draw a threat" feel of the original Gro and SuperGro?  I really liked the fact that I was always drawing action cards.

3) Does the controllish version do better overall than the orthodox version?  If so do you have any stats and metagame information when one does better than the other?  

Thanks again for all the input by all interested parties.  In my mind this is what TMD does best and is for.  No counseling sessions here.

Note: Mods is this up to snuff for the EVF?  If so can you move it so that it gets more posts and views?  If not its not a big deal, I just want to get as much information for this thread as I can.  Thanks. \n\n

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote Three Cunning Wish has been nothing short of great; I personally have never had trouble casting it.  However, for reasons stated earlier, running three doesn't cause Gush to be moved to the SB.

My deck has had Regrowth in it since the restriction of Gush.  To be honest, it hasn't really done anything particularly spectacular; it almost always targets Ancestral Recall, and tends to just sit in my hand if there isn't one in the graveyard

I may try to fit in the third wish at the expense of something else.  You have room for this and regrowth?  Do you have a current list to offer?

Quote I believe that 22-23 is a good number, but I run red and lack Moxen.  

As I said earlier, I believe in the red splash, and largely because of the artifact hate it offers.  I use Meltdown and Rack & Ruin, and am considering Gorilla Shaman and Artifact Mutation

Its really hard to make comparisons, as powered decks just play a lot different than non-powered ones.  When I play-tested the 4-color version, it was with isochron scepter.  scepter allows you to cheat on the mana-base since you can cast them for colorless.  I'd like to develop a consistent deck with 4-colors, but that isn't dependent on scepter.

Quote The original version of Gro was a difficult deck to play because it controlled the game only to the point necessary to win

I agree, however, the original gro evolved in a metagame that was dominated by control (largely keeper).  Eventually Mask and TnT became more prevalent, and Gro adapted to include more spot removal, until it culminated in GAT, which could simply combo out most aggro strategies.

The difference now, is that combo is much more of a threat than before.  I will mention that the white version looks like it addresses the workshop matchup much better, however, I don't think 'the drop a bear and protect it for four turns' strategy works anymore.  Much of this last bit of advice is metagame dependent.  If you see nothing but sligh and keeper, Ugw is probably a better choice.

I'm fully aware of the hybrid nature of decks now-a-days, however, against combo, you still want to play control; against control, you still want to play aggro-control; against aggro, you still want to play combo-control.  I feel card choices I've made allow me to do this.

Quote Does Mana Drain help in the combo match up?  If so how?

In a word, yes.  It is strictly superior to misdirection and daze, which are often dead against long and dragon.  They also provide tremendous tempo swings in the workshop match up.

Quote Does the increased mana base take away from the "always draw a threat" feel of the original Gro and SuperGro

There is a distinctly different feel from a deck that runs 20 lands and a deck that runs 24.  Often it only takes one or two lands to feel the difference.  I've made concessions in order to fit more lands in (playing future sight, and AK's), however, I think the optimal build will have a combination of high-card quality and low mana-count.  I miss the former in Ugw builds, and the latter in any 4 color builds I've played.

Quote Does the controllish version do better overall than the orthodox version?  If so do you have any stats and metagame information when one does better than the other

This is something I can't answer fully given my small sample size.  My results against Keeper, Fish, Long, and Dragon have been good.  Siral has done well in Italy with a very controllish version that runs 19 lands.  Outside of that there is a lot of variance in results.

[Rebel428]

Since GI asked, here is my current list.  I'm still constantly tinkering it, so it'll probably be different within an hour or two

4 Quirion Dryad
3 Psychatog

4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gush

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Misdirection/Duress (still can't decide)

1 Future Sight
1 Fastbond
1 Yawgmoth's Will

3 Cunning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Regrowth

4 Volcainc Island (Lotus would be in for one of these if I had it)
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Floooded Strand
2 Island (Mostly just filler since I lack Moxen)
1 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
1 Sol Ring

I used to have LoA in one of the Island slots, but it's been rather disappointing to me.  The fact that many people play Suicide Black around here is probably a large reason why.

Admittedly, my lack of several cards is lthe reason I have room for stuff like the third Cunning Wish.  Given the choice between a third Wish and Regrowth, however, I'd definitely take the Wish.

[jntemp777]

Quote (Rebel428 @ Nov. 03 2003,17:56)I used to have LoA in one of the Island slots, but it's been rather disappointing to me.  The fact that many people play Suicide Black around here is probably a large reason why.

I would have to agree about LOA in this deck.  

Strip Mine or another basic island has worked much better for me.  7 in hand in a deck with so many chuck-counters has been difficult to achieve against opponents that are actively putting out threats.

I still like Library in Keeper, but in Groatog, I haven't missed it a bit.

[Ric_Flair]

Does anyone have data on tests versus Keeper?  Living in New England means that when Keeper is good EVERYONE (except Jacob) is playing Keeper.  In particular I am looking for good anti-Keeper SB cards.  

On a separate issue does anyone have advice for beating combo?  I noticed that Maxim used Tsabo's Webs in his SB vs. Dragon.  How well did that work out?  Has anyone tried Wasteland/Strips in SBs to shut down Dragon and or wMUD.  

One last issue.  If you are not running Black, thus letting you run Will, how useful is Regrowth?  I have been in many situations when I would love to Regrow an Ancestral or Timewalk.

[Black Explosion]

In my experience, gro has trouble with dragon. I've played 2,3, and 4 color gro. I've used Tsabo's web in the board, resolved it, and done poorly. Even with BEB, STP, and stifle\crypt\purge, I still have real real trouble against dragon using bazaars. Against the variants without bazaar engines, I'm !00%, so I think the issue is just the card avantage + enough must counters.

I tried library out, including several versions (including Maxim's that ran 4 ak's and no mis-d's), and I still didn't like it.

This is what I played at the KC tourney; I went 2-2, winning my first 4 games, then losing 1-2 to Gay Red, and going 0-2 vs. Shockwave's dragon. I then casually dropped from the tourney.

        4 Misdirection
        4 Force of Will
        3 Duress
        3 Mana Drain
        4 Brainstorm
        3 Opt
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Gush
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Fact or Fiction
        4 Quirion Dryad
        3 Meddling Mage
        1 Mystic Enforcer
        2 Cunning Wish
        1 Time Walk
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        2 Swords to Plowshares
        1 Pernicious Deed
        4 Tropical Island
        4 Flooded Strand
        3 Tundra
        3 Underground Sea
        2 Polluted Delta
        1 Island
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
SB:  1 Balance
SB:  1 Coffin Purge
SB:  1 Disenchant
SB:  1 Duress
SB:  2 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Tranquil Domain
SB:  1 Null Rod
SB:  1 Pernicious Deed
SB:  1 Sacred Ground
SB:  1 Skeletal Scrying
SB:  2 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 Tsabo's Web
SB:  1 Vampiric Tutor

Here in KC, people play enough wastes\strips that I can't get away with less than 20 mana sources. I'm not sure how you guys do it; I don't get mana flooded either.

[Dante]

Quote (Black Explosion @ Nov. 13 2003,10:46)In my experience, gro has trouble with dragon. I've played 2,3, and 4 color gro. I've used Tsabo's web in the board, resolved it, and done poorly. Even with BEB, STP, and stifle\crypt\purge, I still have real real trouble against dragon using bazaars. Against the variants without bazaar engines, I'm !00%, so I think the issue is just the card avantage + enough must counters.

Right, the problem with Tsabo's Web is that Dragon only needs to use it once to drop the dragon in the yard and then they're good.

Running it only as a 1-of would seem to be too-little-too-late vs Dragon.  

Dante

[Grand Inquisitor]

I've actually had pretty good results against dragon/reanimator that are based on bazaar.  Granted, I play a lot more defensively than most of the rest of you, I find 2x crypt and a wishable purge have been enough in conjunction with the rest of the counter sweet.  BEB can ruin their day, and is underrated in general in my experience.  It comes in against dragon, long, gobbo, workshop...

Regarding Keeper, I find that they're not deep enough to protect scepter.  Chalice, if used correctly against you can be a pain, but even post-mirrodin this is a good matchup.  So long as you're patient, you're threat density will win out.

[Ric_Flair]

@ GI:  Any post mirrodin SB lists?  I know TMD Open is this weekend, so maybe you can post one Monday.

Anyway, here is the SB I have been working on, with alternate SB slots

SB
1 Berserk
1 STP
1 Moment's Peace
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Stifle
3 BEB
3 Tormod's Crypt

Alternate SB:
2 Sacred Ground
1 Jump (This was before I got a Berserk.  It is kinda funny, but in the end probably not good enough)
1 MisD
1 Disenchant
1 Crumble
2 Wasteland
1 Strip
3 Gainsay

As a note, I am sure everyone else does this too, but for the few who do not, the Alternate SB consists of cards that I test with, but are not in the current build of the deck or the SB.  On occasion I will switch them out to the SB, but thus far some of them work in a very narrow metagame.  In a have Keeper meta I think the Gainsays are good.  The Waste/Strips are good too, but again only against a Bazaar Dragon deck or a Workshop deck.

In the SB I really like the Recalls.  Samite Healer told me a good trick about the stack and Skullcap, one I am sure everyone else in the universe knows, and it makes this card very good.  I also like having one card drawer in the board.  Fact or Fiction is still quite potent.  Lastly, Moment's Peace is HYOOGE against certain decks.  Virtual Madness, which most people never play against is actual popular here in NE, thanks to Hyperion and a few other people.  Busting out the Moment's Peace is really good against them.

So that is it.  I am looking for comments on particular matchups and SB choices.

[Mellow D]

Tsabo's Web seems to be more of a beating versus manlands (Fish).  That it happens to work against LoA, Bazaar, Wasteland, etc. is just a bonus.

[Shivan Knight]

I find that Skeletal Scrying perfectly fits GAT's playing style.
Your graveyard is easily filled with fetchlands, cantrips, counters/duress. And you can bypass Chalice.
I'm used to play 2 copies.

[Ultima]

Scrying has awful synergy with Psychatog and AK's in the yard

IMO, scrying in GAT doesn't work very well because the graveyard is very important with AKs and tog juice thus making scrying more conditional and putting the player in an awkward position.\n\n

[Grand Inquisitor]

A few people have been asking, so here it is (with commentary at the end):

GATr, Waterbury Tournament
   
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Gush
1 Time Walk
1 Future Sight

3 Cunning Wish
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

2 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

2 Fire/Ice
2 Isochron Scepter

3 Quirion Dryad
2 Psychatog
1 Gorrilla Shaman

6 Solomox (-pearl)
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
5 Blue Fetch

Sideboard:
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Tormod's Crypt   
2 Pyroblast
2 Hydroblast
1 Smother
1 Naturalize
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Crumble
1 Berserk
1 Stiffle
1 Coffin Purge
1 Fact or Fiction

Card Choices:

1) Red Splash
I finally found a way to make the manabase work (sort of), and I needed to choose between white and red.  White hates creatures better, and red hates artifacts better.  There's a lot more artifacts, and Workshops are a tough matchup so...

2) Isochron Scepter
This card single handedly wins games.  I think of it as a mini-future sight.  The effect isn't as dramatic, but neither is the cost.  I've structured the sideboard (8 targets) and maindeck (2x fire/ice, 3rd Cunning Wish) to maximize this effect.  I find it improves matchups that were lacking.  Without fastbond, its harder to go combo against aggro decks, so Isochron helps as re-usable removal.  It ups the permanent count, and the resiliency against workshop as well.

3) Creature Base
I've tried going to a 3:1:1 formation (only one tog), but found that I really liked dropping him in front of aggro decks.  The red splash allowed me to pack a solitary Gorrila Shaman to fight workshop decks (chalice), artifact heavy combo decks, and isochron scepter.  The fourth dryad got dropped to make room for scepter/ice.  So far the trade-off has helped the deck's performance.

4) Sideboard
This sideboard has been fantastic for the NE metagame.  I recently moved from artirfact mutation to naturalize.  I found that Rack and Ruin was enough of a bomb against Workshop, and Naturalize works against dragon as well.  I have three different costed artifact removal spells for chalice, exactly the amount of blasts I want (yes, BEB has been that good), a card drawer (no, scrying isn't good), and enough removal as well.  The Tormod's Crypts do double duty against Dragon and Long, and while I wonder about making one of them a chalice, I just haven't been impressed by Long yet (3-0).


Issues Still on the Table:

Mana Base
Although the deck functions well enough, I'd like to find room for a single island since bloodmoon is coming back into style, and LD focused decks (Fish, Keeper, Workshop) are more prominent.  I had two games on Sunday where I faced four LD effects in the early goings (once against Keeper and once against Fish).  I survived Keeper since I got time to rebuild, Fish, however, took me out.  Add this to the fact that I know suicide is a bad matchup, and I know the mana-base needs work.

I'll probably try to drop one of the tropicals/volcanics/5th fetch.  Strip Mine and LoA aren't going anywhere, and I don't want to go to 23 sources.  I could also drop one of the moxen, but I really like the acceleration.  Suggestions?

Counterbase
I would like to fit more disruption/counter into the deck, but I just don't see where it will go.  There are times when I would like to know what my opponent has (duress), but against control I already have a favorable matchup, and against combo the sideboard fills in the holes.  The Misdirections stay in to steal ancestral recalls, and protect dryads/scepters (that is until someone can convince me otherwise).

Marginal Cards:
Gorrilla Shaman-I just don't know what he's good against besides workshop decks.  He always seems to come out.

Fire/Ice #2-I think I can afford to drop this for merchant scroll or vampiric tutor, but I'm still on the fence.  If fish continues to be popular, you'll bet they stay in.

Psychatog #2-I mentioned before that he's been good, but what might be better?  He often just pitches to something early and anything could seal it late.

Cards I'd like to fit:
Duress-mentioned previously

Divert-still a great card, I miss it

Powder Keg-great against fish, workshop, scepter control.  It doesn't solve the null rod problem, should it be a deed?

Fastbond-maybe this is just the kid in me, but there's something about playing your entire graveyard (y.will) and library (future sight) in one turn.

Overall, I would like to test more against Fish, Long, and Madness.  Everything else I'm pretty comfortable with and I like my chances with this deck.  Comments?

[Kerzkid11]

Quote Powder Keg-great against fish, workshop, scepter control.  It doesn't solve the null rod problem, should it be a deed?

In my opinion, yes, It should be a deed. Deed is arguably the best board clearer and greatly helps one of your worse matchups, Workshop. Deed works next turn, Keg takes a few turns but does hit more precise targets. With a creature base like yours and the whole more controlling aspect, I think that a deed would fit well.

[Ric_Flair]

Waterbury deck lists and content added to original post.  Thanks for the analysis GI and thanks for the decklists, Ray.

[glenchuy]

serious question.

our vintage tourney is overrun by aggro (no matter how many people play CoTV, over 100 attendance) i'm planning on running initial hulk, with maindeck deeds.  would GAT, gro, or any other gro variant be better than hulk in this scenario?

[Ric_Flair]

I am running the current version of Gro, posted at the start of the thread, and I run in it a very aggro meta, aside from Jeff and Jacob.  Scrubby black and Sligh mainly.  MisD and Dryad rock aggro.  The only weakness I have experienced is Wasteland.  The card ruins my version of the deck with the ultra low land count (8 fetches, 8 duals).  GI's version is probably heartier.  It may lose a bit do the control elements, but it is a more solid deck overall.  My Gro is just cheap to build and does decently well in the scrubby aggro meta.  Plus the deck is very forgiving, as are most decks with this much redundancy.\n\n

[glenchuy]

the meta is not scrubby aggro, just aggro, pretty good aggro decks, some even powered.  a few other powered control/combo decks but i can count them with my fingers, so my maind concern would be aggro- still think it would be a better idea than hulk? budget is of no concern, i can build either.

[Grand Inquisitor]

@glenchuy, a lot of this depends on how much of that aggro is suicide as opposed to sligh, zoo, stompy, etc.  I found suicide to be an especially difficult matchup for new 'gro' decks since we now only have one gush to protect lands.  

My 4-color version is geared towards a high-powered combo/control metagame.  However, either my 3-color version (which is very combo-esque), the numerous versions splashing white (for stp), or even a retro emerald alice build (use the search feature) might be appropriate.  With the 4-color version, its the isochron scepters which help you stabalize vs. aggro (usually imprinting F/I, smother or Mana Drain).