Oath of Druids Mini Primer

[Queequeg]

This was knock up a few months back and might be edging on the dated side. I also alf-inched a few peoples decklists, but there names are mentioned and the posts are referenced so it should be a problem. I would appreciate it if the mods thought is was good enough to move it to the Extreme vintage forum. Anyway time for everybody to have a laugh at my expense.

__
Oath of Druids in type 1
A Mini Primer
Written by Matthew Dorrell (aka Queequeg)

Introduction

This mini primer is not meant to be entirely comprehensive but more as an introduction to playing Oath and concentrates on the key areas rather than in in-depth match by match analyse.

What is an Oath Deck?

An Oath deck is any deck that is built to abuse the use of the Exodus card Oath of Druids. Although all Oath decks share the inclusion of this common card, the strategies and builds behind Oath decks can vary. One idea being to “Oath up” a fatty early, give your opponent a quick death and if your threat dies, Oath again. Counter Oath plays a different game, using the Oath of Druids to Oath up a more evasive threat and a selection of utility creatures, to find more answers and leave deck slots open to counter magic. The obvious advantage of this approach is it can deal with more situations before sideboarding, and is more robust to removal and disruption. This mini primer centre’s on later strategy, which is now widely considered the most viable build. As a consequence the primary colours of Oath are U and G, but 3, 4 and 5 colour builds are common. Colour splashes are added to widen the card pool and thus provide better answers and more brokeness in the absence of power cards.

Why an Oath Deck?

Oath of Druids is a metagame deck. In just the same why that Suicide Black and Anhk Sligh are metagame decks, that is to say it is a deck tailored for a particular metagame. In suicides case this is a field dominated by control strategies, whilst for Oath it is a metagame dominated by aggro. In fact if you play in any environment where aggro decks proliferate then Oath is the deck that will see you with a lot success. Oaths weakness comes when faced with control decks and those running few or no creatures. In these circumstances Oath will have to side against these matches, if every other match is OSE then Oath is not the right choice for your field.

Does Oath require power?

The short answer to this is No. Oath can be played without any of the P9 but in doing so takes a big performance hit. Unlike many other control decks Oath centre’s around card recursion and the brokeness the Oath strategy comes from being able to reply cards like Ancestral Recall multiple times in a single game. Splashing colours in Oath can replace some of the hit that removing power has to the deck.
 
Card Analysis- Green


Oath of Druids: Oath of Druids is the corner stone of every Oath deck; IMO the inclusion of 4 in any oath deck is essential. Drawing Oath is key to your strategy, multiple Oaths drawn are not redundant neither as you the opportunity to stack a series of Oath events in your upkeep.

Gaea’s Blessing: Gaea’s Blessing is used to create a recursion effect after Oathing. During your upkeep when Oath resolves if Gaea’s blessing is revealed and is placed into your graveyard the Gaea’s Blessing’s trigger is placed on the stack, which resolves and reshuffles your graveyard back into your library. Even If a creature is not revealed and you Oath your entire library Gaea’s blessing will still trigger providing it has been revealed.

The significance of this recursion effect is; 1) it stops the Oath player from milling this entire library once he/she has exhausted their creature supply, 2) It gives the player to opportunity to redraw played cards, 3) It gives the option to re-oath creatures that have passed into his/her graveyard.

The ratio of Gaea’s Blessings run to creatures directly effects the frequency of the recursion effect. If for example 1 Blessing is run to 3 creatures, then when you Oath you are more likely to reveal a creature before the Gaeas Blessing, hence you will commonly leave a large graveyard after Oathing. Other recursion effects like Regrowth, Holistic Wisdom, and Flashback can exploit this situation. However the possibility of drawing Gaea’s Blessing requires more than 1 be run in the deck. As a result 2 Gaea’s Blessing’s are run as standard in most Oath Builds.

Sylvan Library: Sylvan Library combined with shuffling effects of cantrips, Oathing and Fetch lands enables you to look at three new cards each draw step. This has several benefits other than the obvious card advantage, it stops you drawing cards that you don’t want in your hand such as a creature or Gaea’s blessing, it helps you from drawing excess land late in the game and lastly it fuels your hand with counters. Of course you always have the option to pay life to keep cards. Drawing multiple copies of Sylvan library however does nothing for card advantage above the first so often only 1 or 2 copies of Sylvan library are run.

Regrowth: Mainly regrowth should be reserved for oath decks running power, the temptation is to include it as a no brainer, unfortunately it doesn’t quite make that sort status in unpowered oath. Its value only really comes from being able to replay Recall and Time walk, especially now with cards like cunning wish offering greater versatility.

Holistic Wisdom: A very nice card to make it out of the Odyssey set, unfortunately again this doesn’t make the cut at the very least for unpowered decks. The idea of replaying recall after recall at the expense of a Brainstorm or 2 would get any Oath players juices going after all isn’t recursion what’s oaths all about? Only Holistic Wisdom is only really good once you have your oath engine out and working properly, which is half the battle won and you have to ask yourself do a dedicate a slot to make this battle easier? Or make me look better when I win? Holistic Wisdom is quite simply overkill.

Naturalise: A green disenchant simple, but one of the most invaluable cards to come out of recent sets, and removes the need to substitute white for artifact/ enchantment destruction. Finding a slot for naturalise is another matter and often ends up in the sideboard.
 Card Analysis- Creatures


There are 2 rules that all Oath creatures must meet:

1) All Oath creatures must be able to self-sacrifice at instant speed.

This means you can control your creature count more actively, and re-Oath at will for a new creature if the existing one does not suit. It must be instant speed so that the creature can be saced if at threat from being removed from the game entirely i.e. by swords to Plowshares.

2) All oath creatures must be hard castable.

This is so you don’t get stuck for a kill if you draw it, or if you are forced to cast it from your hand. Therefore the casting cost needs to be realistic.

Spike Weaver: Weaver is used to create a Fogging effect preventing combat damage. However Weaver can be used to stack counters on other creatures you control or and when pushed can be used as a 3/3 beatstick.

Spike Feeder: Feeder is used for 3 purposes, to create an infinite fogging effect with Weaver, Gain 4 life each turn verse direct damage and stack Morphling with counters whilst maintaining the fogging effect with Weaver.

The Weaver/Feeder ratio is typically 1/1. Although situations where Oathing Weaver is critical then 2/0 ratio in favour of Weaver can be implemented from the sideboard. The reverse is true verse burn strategies where a 0/2 ratio in Feeders favour can be sided in.

Morphling: Superman is the best kill card for the Oath main board. Stand-alone it is evasive enough to leave you enough free counters for elsewhere. Its pump ability enables it to abuse the +1/+1 counters of the Spikes, whilst in the Oath engine it is virtually indestructible.
 

Card Analysis- Blue


Mana Drain: I have played Oath both with and without Drains. Mana Drain unlike counterspell not only provides you will permission spell but also a possible tempo shift in your favour. Oath can exploit this either by converting that mana into card advantage with cards like Stroke of Genius, by moving tokens from Weaver/Feeder or pumping Morphling. Counterspell can be used as a substitute, but you lose the shift change associated with Drain.

Mana Leak: Mana Leak is used in powdered U/G builds of Oath as a first turn counterspell, since their effectiveness diminishes greatly as the game advances counterspell are only superior when Mox are excluded from the deck. However in 3 or 4 colour builds, or those that running slots dedicated to supporting man lands, there is often not enough blue sources to reliably cast counterspell, hence mana leak is used in favour.

Counterspell: Counterspell essentially is an emancipated version of Mana Drain. However as I said it could be used as a poor mans substitute, or could replace Mana leak in unpowdered U/G builds which include Mana Drain.

Force of Will: The classic first turn Counterspell at the expense of 1 life and a blue card has always been a favourite with control players. The only condition with running Force of Will is you must be able to support a workable number of pitch spells, which can put pressure on it’s use in 4 or 5 colour builds.

Misdirection: Misdirection is not a counterspell, but like Force of Will is can offer first turn permission and like force of will must run a workable number of blue pitch cards. Further more misdirection is obviously limited to spells which have a target, in type 1 is usually isn’t a problem, if your regional metagame is odd or retarded then you might reconsider its inclusion or at least limiting it to the sideboard.

Ancestral Recall: No brainer, only even more so due the recursion of Oath, you’ll get to play it more than once a game! If you haven’t got one then you can’t run it, if you have one run it, if you can proxy it do so.

Time Walk: Oath twice, draw 2 cards, lay and extra land, Untap each land once, attack with Morphling twice. Another no brainer and you’ll possibly get to do this multiple times a game

Fact or Fiction:  FOF is restricted for a reason, not quite a no brainer but excellent card in Oath nonetheless.

Impulse: Impulse is excellent in Oath, it provides you with the extensive search power you need and provides you with a shuffling effect ideal for use with Sylvan Library or Brainstorm but unlike brainstorm doesn’t leave redundant cards sitting on top of your library.

Brainstorm: Not as deep digging as Impulse and can leave unwanted cards on top of your library. However brainstorms advantage comes from its ability to replace creatures and Blessings back on top of your library ready for your next oath. Hence brainstorms strength comes when combined with shuffling and deck thinning effects. Often as a result players run them alongside impulse in various ratios.

Cunning Wish: Couldn’t find space for that misdirection or naturalise Cunning Wish is the answer to that, effectively any thing up to 15 spells in one. But Cunning wish is only as usefull as you make it and finding slots in your sideboard is a lot harder than it sounds. To exploit cunning wish to its full you need to make sure the sideboard is ‘tooled up’ with at least a card drawing source, artifact and enchantment destruction and targeting creature removal.

Stroke of Genesis: Best played in the sideboard with Cunning Wish main decked, this way you don’t draw it when you least need it.

Braingeyser: Can’t be wished for, but none the less a more efficient card drawer than Stroke of Genesis, even if it has more chance of being misdirected and can’t be wished for. Still my deck has Braingesyer main decked.

Merchant Scroll: Copy of Ancestral anybody. No reason whatsoever to include it when you are not running power.

Mystical Tutor: A very usefull Blue utility spell, oath architecture can vary but mystical tutor will undoubtedly be at home in all of them even the upowered decks it can fetch that braingeyser or Fact Or Fiction.
 

Card Analyse – White


Outside U/G white is the first colour most oath players will look at splashing. A third colour will compromise your mana base slightly but not significantly that you still can use or evade the effects of cards like Back to Basics. The first port of call is usually white because it gives the Oath player spot removal, which is vital for riding of ass fucking creatures like Commander Esha or early pressure creatures like Phyrexain Neagtor.

Balance:  Balance doesn’t fit a winning Oath strategy, you’ll lose more land and hand size than your aggro opponent. Notice I said winning, no single card is more likely to give the losing Oath player a final chance at redemption, and not all your opponents will be aggro and against keeper balance can be devastating

Swords to Plowshare: The main reason for splashing White. I run 2 in my deck, a third in the sideboard for Cunning Wish.

Enlightened Tutor: This mirage Tutor has two major disadvantages, firstly you can only search for an enchantement and Oath being mostly instants that’s not that useful. Secondly the card is revealed and placed on top of the library. However in a stratergy where a single card is so important having a 5th Oath of Druids is something that I couldn’t turn down if I had an available slot.


Card Analyse – Black


Black is the fourth colour of choice and in my option the last, if black is needed at all.

Duress: One of the single best anti control cards printed. Although despite this you have to question if Duress actually serves any purpose that blue counter magic doesn’t. Arguably Duress is proactive and can force key cards out of your opponents’ hand first turn but with first turn mana leaks and Force of wills available is that so important. Splashing Black just for Duress does not convince me, a powered build certainly has no need for it.

Yawgmoths’ Will: Oath mana base is neither explosive enough nor is the oath engine constant enough to make full use of this broken card. Plus what are you going to reply? counters? Recall? It will be lost forever if you do.

Vampiric Tutor: Its and improvement over enlightened. Just.

Demonic Tutor: At last a decent card from black, being able to fetch any card from your deck to your hand in an Oath deck is pretty useful. But is a good card and a bunch of half-decent ones worth the lose of back to basics from you sideboard? I personally think not.

Mind Twist: This has just got misdirection written all over it, but if your gonna splash black you might do something bastard mad like run one, or 4.
 
Card Analyse – Artifacts


Black Lotus/Sol Ring/ Mox: Running Off colour moxen is pretty standard in powered oath builds. It has the advantage that Mana leak can become a first turn spell alongside Oath. The sacrifice is that this limits the number of over colourless mana sources you can run.

Powder Keg: The most single versatile artifact printed. Its use in oath is less important than in other control decks, but it still provides useful artifact removal, Mox destruction and non-targeting mass creature removal.


Card Analyse - Land


Library of Alexandria: As land goes a No brainer. Proxy this if you can.

Wasteland & Strip Mine: Essential, make room for as many as you can, after moxen this is your next priority for colourless land slots. Wastelands are also invaluable at riding of pesky man lands.

Mishras Factory: The idea of using factories is appealing. Against aggro you have a series of 2/2’s that won’t trigger your opponents chance to oath whilst against control they give you a built in back up plan. The downside is that outside of a U/G build you’ll have no colourless land slots to accommodate them, forcing you to increase you land count. Only to find enemy Wastelands nuke them.

Treetop Village: CIPT effect and higher activation cost makes these less effective than factories, and you now what I said about them.

Fetch Lands & Dual Lands: The basis of your mana base. Don’t consider painlands or City of brass until your reach 4 or 5 colour builds.


Card Analyse – Sideboard

The big temptation for inexperienced players when deciding what goes into an oath sideboard is to double up already on a winning strategy by including cards, often creature cards that make easy aggro matches easier. Instead you should use this space of 15 cards to make only the hardest of aggro matches easier and give you a fighting chance against creatureless  and control stratergies.

One way of achieving this is running an Ophidian conversion in the sideboard. Usually consisting of 4 Ophidian and 1 Morphling. This would allow you to convert your build into a U/Gphid deck by substituting the Oath engine out for the Ophidians and additional Morphling. The conversion fits well since both archetypes are similar, and still leaves you space in your sideboard for other match ups.

A second less effective approach is to use an Emerald Alice Gro based conversion. Although this appeals to me less since both strategies use massively different deck architecture, both in number of mana sources, counters and cantrips.

I have also seen Living Wish and Call of the Herd used with the same idea in mind, although both Call of the Herd and Living Wish can be thwarted by a good opponent, and neither replace the oath engine with an alternative card drawing strategy.

Woodripper: To replace Morphling in the workshop matchup, the toughest pure aggro deck.

Akroma, Angel of Wrath: A Bomb against Suicide, Sligh and Hulk three of the toughest aggro control matches.

Phantom Nishoba: Only better than Akroma verses Sligh, and only marginally. I would only sideboard Nishoba if Sligh was the pigeon deck in my area.

Back to basics: If you are running up to 3 colours you will find back to basics a invaluable anti flash bastard I own all the dual lands card.


Example Oath Builds

U/G Powered Build
Name: Sapphire Oath
Designer: Zherbus

Counters (12)
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Mana Leak
2 Misdirection

Engine (6)
4 Oath of Druids
2 Gaea's Blessing

Creatures (3)
1 Spike Weaver
1 Spike Feeder
1 Morphling

Search/Draw (10)
4 Impulse
2 Sylvan Library
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Merchant Scroll

Utility (4)
1 Regrowth
1 Time Walk
2 Powder Keg

Mana (25)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
4 Tropical Island
3 Wooded Foothill
1 Forest
8 Island
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine


Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 Woodripper
SB: 3 Naturalize
SB: 1 Morphling
SB: 4 Ophidian
SB: 1 Ravenous Balroth
SB: 1 Teferi's Response
SB: 1 Misdirection
SB: 3 Back to Basics


http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....re+oath


U/Gw Unpowered Build
Name: Oath of Queequeg
Designer: Queequeg

//Green (11)
   4 Oath of Druids
   2 Gaeas Blessing
   2 Sylvan Library
   1 Spike Weaver
   1 Spike Feeder

//Blue (22)
   4 Force of Will
   4 Mana Drain
   2 Counterspell
   2 Misdirection
   4 Impulse
   1 Fact or Fiction
   1 Mystical Tutor
   1 Braingeyser
   1 Morphling
   1 Cunning Wish
  
//White (3)
   2 Swords to Plowshare’s
   1 Enlightened Tutor
   1 Balance

//Artifact (2)
   1 Powder keg
   1 Sol Ring

//land (23)
   4 Tropical Island
   4 Windswept Heath
   08 Island
   2 Tundra
   1 Strip Mine
   2 Wasteland
   1 Plains
   1 Forest

//Sideboard (15)
SB/1 Ravenous Balthor
SB/1 Akroma Angel of Wrath
SB/1 Woodripper
SB/1 Morphling
SB/4 Ophidian
SB/1 Misdirection
SB/1 Naturalise
SB/1 Stroke of Genius
SB/1 Swords to Plowshare’s
SB/3 Back To Basics


http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....hl=oath


4 Colour Unpowered Build
Name: Now with 100% More decklist
Designer: Saucemaster

The Oath Engine (8)
3 Oath of Druids
2 Gaea's Blessing
1 Morphling
1 Spike Weaver
1 Spike Feeder

The Good Cards (17)
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Misdirection
1 Cunning Wish
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Braingeyser
1 Stroke of Genius
3 Brainstorm

The Black Cards (3)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mind Twist

The Unfortunately Necessary Cards (3)
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance
1 Dismantling Blow

Random Other Stuff (3)
1 Powder Keg
1 Sylvan Library
1 Holistic Wisdom

The Manabase (26)
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
2 City of Brass
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Sol Ring

The Sideboard (15)
4 Duress
2 Morphling
1 Aura Fracture
1 Oath of Druids
1 Misdirection
1 Teferi's Response
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Ebony Charm
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Naturalize


http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....nd+oath

FIN

[Queequeg]

If everybody has stopped pissing in thier pants now, some constructive insults and discussion might be nice

[Bastian]

It's not that Oath is a bad deck, it's that the format isn't that creature friendly enough for Oath to be good enough. I think that's why the deck's so unpopular right now.

[Methuselahn]

Hey, nice read.  

Sort of what Bastain is saying,... and what you have said yourself, Oath is a metagame deck.  I would think it would be a great contender in Type 1.5.  Do you have a suggested skeleton for this format?

[Grollub]

Quote (Methuselahn @ Nov. 02 2003,10:17)Hey, nice read.  

Sort of what Bastain is saying,... and what you have said yourself, Oath is a metagame deck.  I would think it would be a great contender in Type 1.5.  Do you have a suggested skeleton for this format?

Try looking in the T1.5 forum. There's some great decks listed on the Decks To Beat thread.

[Larz_dk]

Actually, I'm planning on running Oath for my next T1 tournament - the metagame isn't too powered, and there are lots of critters running around (I won the last one playing UGw Gro - 37 persons - 6rnds, t8)

This is my current working decklist:

4 Tropical Island
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
2 Forest
7 Island

Mox Jet
Mox Emerald
Mox Sapphire
Mox Pearl
Mox Diamond
Black Lotus
Sol Ring

2 Powder Keg
2 Isochron Scepter

4 Oath of Druids
2 Gaea's Blessing
1 Regrowth
1 Spike Feeder
1 Spike Weaver

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Mana Leak
4 Impulse
1 Morphling
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Cunning Wish
1 Mystical Tutor

SB:
1 Funeral Pyre
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Ophidian
1 Woodripper
1 Platinum Angel
1 Stifle
1 Naturalize
1 Krosan Reclamation
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fact or Fiction


pretty similar to SapphireOath, including the Ophie switch sb. Crumble considdered, to get around the annoying(devastating) Chalice=2

[Queequeg]

My meta is always packed full of creatures, But as I said it was written a while back when perhapes the deck was more relevant. What I wanted was input on the format and content ect rather then the changing competative nature of the deck. Although this piont was touched on a little in the opening.

Cheers anyway

[Ric_Flair]

I guess this has been on the shelf for a long time.  Many of the things you said are now outdated.

Black, it seems to me, is clearly better than White in Oath.  The metagame has shifted towards combo and control and thus Duress is far more powerful than anything white has to offer.  

The creature base you used--Spike Weaver, Spike Feeder, and Morphling--are also outdated.  With the addition of black the deck should be reconfigured to include the following:

1 Ravenous Baloth
1 Visara
1 Spike Weaver

Morphling has always been vastly overrated in any deck other than Keeper.  This fact, combined, with the rise in Tog makes me want to use Visara over Superman all day long.  Tap to kill target Tog or Welder is very good, far better than anything Morphling can do in the Tog and wMUD match ups.

Also the notion that all creatures should be hard castable has never, ever been true in Oath decks.  Many Oath decks have historically ran Crater Hellion, a red creature that cannot be hard cast.  Similarly Visara is probably advisable over Morphling even in Oath decks with no white, though I believe them to be almost strictly inferior.

Other creatures are now more common place in Oath than those you mentioned.  They include:

Baloth
Akroma
Visara

All of these creatures should be considered over the creatures you mentioned, aside from the still irreplacable Weaver.

[Queequeg]

Oath has always lost to control and probably always will, splashing black for Duress won't remedie this problem especially since deck slots are so tight and Duress is only really effective when run as 4. As for the combo match I can't see Duress helping more the the 12-14 counterspells that most Oath builds pack. Which leads me to question the need for Duress or its value over the counter magic oath runs

Ravenous Balthor is only better than feeder when the fogging effect with weaver isn't needed. Often its better except in a few matches to be able to fog. My  Balthor is reserved in the sideboard for such matches.

As for Visara, I don't like her in oath. Although I have never run her she certainly won't be a main decked creature. She isn't evasive enough to be used as a kill card against alot of decks but certainly she would be effective sided in against Tog and welder decks

Morphling is main decked because of its evasive strengths and adaptability. Yes and often than not it will be sided out on games 2 and 3, but it is the obvious choice main board.

Akroma for example is better verses most decks. Still Akroma like visara don'st escape maze or plowshares.

Also Morphling has to be sideboarded at least if you want to run the essential phid conversion.

Visara might make addition to my sideboard but theres pressure on slots and at the moment Akroma does the jobs that morphling don't

Thanks for the input

[Tristal]

I would be remiss if I didn't namedrop Ancient Hydra as a great Oath creature.

>>Oath has always lost to control and probably always will

FOUR.  MISHRA'S.  FACTORY.  With those and Oath on the board, you DOMINATE normal control strategies.  Duress helps more than you'd think, as it's more threats they "have to counter," though I still don't suggest playing black unless fully powered with Lotus.

Agreed on the Morphling issue - I think most people consider Akroma "better," but pre-board Morphling does the job better as it doesn't get smashed by Swords.  Pre-sideboard you go for the weaver/morphling game and win with a huge unkillable Morph; post-sideboard you lay a hoser and just smash face with whatever you get.

Visara is a cool idea against Reanimator, Tog or Mask.  Avatar of Woe, however, does get by Morphlings.

>>Also the notion that all creatures should be hard castable has never, ever been true in Oath decks.  Many Oath decks have historically ran Crater Hellion, a red creature that cannot be hard cast.  Similarly Visara is probably advisable

Visara can kill herself just fine post-sickness.  I think Woodripper bears a special exception to The Rule, but mostly because his 4/6 frame is big enough to hold off anything anyway (And really, what matchup are you worried about flying that you'd side in Woodripper for?)  There's two trains of thought here - one says "You want to be able to kill your guy whenever you need so you can Oath up a different answer", but the other says "Screw answers, I just oathed up AKROMA!"  I really find the former is a better strategy against control, but the latter works against everything else.  I like Akroma, but she goes in the sideboard for me.

>>Morphling has always been vastly overrated in any deck other than Keeper.

It's overrated in Keeper too.  3 out of 4 Teen Girl Squad members call Decree of Justice "SO GOOD!"

I'm curious what impetus people have for still including Baloth/Feeder in their decks.  Especially now!  Unless your metagame is still pretty scrubby and runs a lot of Sligh - but even then, pre-board Ancient Hydra is a HOUSE, and post-board you have your best friend CoP:Red (THE reason to run white!)

[Kerzkid11]

Quote Oath has always lost to control and probably always will

You say this yourself which only affirms other posts on this thread. This basically means this deck cannot compete now that most aggro has died down.\n\n

[Ric_Flair]

Quote Oath has always lost to control and probably always will, splashing black for Duress won't remedie this problem especially since deck slots are so tight and Duress is only really effective when run as 4. As for the combo match I can't see Duress helping more the the 12-14 counterspells that most Oath builds pack. Which leads me to question the need for Duress or its value over the counter magic oath runs

I do not understand so many things that you said.  First, many many decks run less than 4 Duress.  Duress is very rarely a bad card.  Because slots are tight in most good decks, Duress is run as a 3 of.  See Disruption Keeper, new GAT decks, and the like.  In fact, the only deck I can think of that runs 4 Duress standard is Sui.  Most control decks that use them like 3.  

The comment about Duress not being better than counterspells against combo is ABSURD, TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY WRONG.  The current preferred method of kill for combo is Tendrils.  Almost all counterspells are utterly useless against the Storm powered Tendrils kill.  Duress on the other hand can grab Tendrils and put it into the graveyard with no effect.  

Duress makes unpowered control decks better.  Control, in general, stands to benefit from the addition.  The fact that by playing black you get the following cards should also sway you away from white:  Demonic Tutor, Mind Twist, Deed (with the Green), Yawgmoth's Will.  

In short Black is better than White in most decks including this one.  Duress and the above mentioned cards make it superior.  The fact that you lose StP is insignificant, considering your win condition works only when they have creatures.  Disenchant can be replaced with Naturalize and Balance is unimporant in this style of deck, as you point out.  As such, there is no reason to run Oath with White over Black.  None.  Doing otherwise is simply adhering to outdated thinking and deck design.

Quote As for Visara, I don't like her in oath. Although I have never run her she certainly won't be a main decked creature. She isn't evasive enough to be used as a kill card against alot of decks but certainly she would be effective sided in against Tog and welder decks

Again these statements make no sense.  How is Morphling more evasive than Visara?  Visara has flying naturally.  You have to pay for it with Morphling.  Granted Morphling is untargetable, but the only real threat Visara faces is StP, something your counters and Duress should handle with ease.  Also I think you will see more matchups where killing creatures is important.  In scrubby metagames where this deck is very good, Visara is awesome at controlling the board.  In high end metagames killing Welder is some good.  So is killing Tog, which can't be countered if Visara does it by the way.

Those specific criticisms aside, how is it that this deck does not run the AK/Intuition engine?  To do otherwise is sheer folly right now.  Your deck is very outdated and you don't seem willing to change.  

If I were to run Oath here is what it would look like:

Powered Oath:

Creatures:
1 Visara
1 Spike Weaver
1 Ravenous Baloth

Counters:
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Duress

Draw:
4 AK
2 Intuition
4 Brainstorm

Utility:
2 Cunning Wish
1 Pernicious Deed

Engine:
2 Blessing
4 Oath

Restricted Stuff:
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Timewalk

Mana Base:
5 SoloMoxen
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Treetop Village
4 Underground River
4 Tropical Island
1 Island

UnPowered:
Creatures:
1 Visara
1 Spike Weaver
1 Ravenous Baloth

Counters:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Duress

Draw:
4 AK
2 Intuition
4 Brainstorm

Utility:
2 Cunning Wish
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Isochron Specter
or -2 Deeds, -1 Specter and +3 Null Rods (if Powered Metagame)

Engine:
2 Blessing
4 Oath

Restricted Stuff:
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Mana Base:
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Treetop Village
4 Underground River
4 Tropical Island
4 Island
2 Mishra's Factory

I am not sure about the SB.

The issue is the deck is starting look like bad Tog.  Still I am almost positive UGb Oath is better than UGw Oath.\n\n

[Queequeg]

Quote (And really, what matchup are you worried about flying that you'd side in Woodripper for?)

Sorry Tristal I don't really understand what your getting at here?? Woodripper is for the artifact match.

Quote FOUR.  MISHRA'S.  FACTORY.  With those and Oath on the board, you DOMINATE normal control strategies

No they just get destroyed by wastelands. Espically since any control play will know that without your oath engine working your dead in the water they are going to save the wastelands just for your manlands

Quote Agreed on the Morphling issue - I think most people consider Akroma "better," but pre-board Morphling does the job better as it doesn't get smashed by Swords.  Pre-sideboard you go for the weaver/morphling game and win with a huge unkillable Morph; post-sideboard you lay a hoser and just smash face with whatever you get.

I couldn't agree with this more, well said.

Quote I'm curious what impetus people have for still including Baloth/Feeder in their decks.  Especially now!  Unless your metagame is still pretty scrubby and runs a lot of Sligh - but even then, pre-board Ancient Hydra is a HOUSE, and post-board you have your best friend CoP:Red (THE reason to run white!)

Alot of people think sligh is a easy match, but is actually pritty hard. A good sligh player will know not to drop any creatures and fall back on there burn spells, anhk and scroll. If Sligh was very dominate in your field then COP:R or chalice of the void is your best choice, in most cases it dosn't warrent a sideboard slot.

As for running balthor/feeder. Feeder is used mostly for fogging, but its just nice that it doubles as a life gaing tool. Balthor is sided in against sligh and sui matches.

Quote I would be remiss if I didn't namedrop Ancient Hydra as a great Oath creature.

Wait is Trisklion better? it dosn't require mana to use and is colourless. Plus is easier to hardcast.

On a sidenote, the only match I can see Visara being any good at is Tog, there are certainly more effient creatures at killing welders. Perhapes a Woodripper/Trisklion combo. Akroma is pritty shit hot against Tog anyway.

[Tristal]

>> (And really, what matchup are you worried about flying that you'd side in Woodripper for?)

My point was, Woodripper doesn't have much evasion, but it will block any creature it sees since you only sideboard it against the artifact matchup - one that, unless I'm forgetting some random tech, doesn't have flying critters.

>>No they just get destroyed by wastelands. Espically since any control play will know that without your oath engine working your dead in the water they are going to save the wastelands just for your manlands

Let's see: They use their wastelands on your factories.  You use yours on their colored sources.  Who do you think is gonna have the mana advantage in a counterwar, etc?   I personally adore having them waste their LD on my factories, as my blue mana is almost always more important at the time; if it's late game and you're worried about LD, you can always CWish for Teferi's Response if you like.

>>Alot of people think sligh is a easy match, but is actually pritty hard.
With CoP: Red on the board, the only things you have to worry about are Flaring Pain, Cursed Scroll, and Barbarian Ring.  Just make sure you don't get cocky and decide you can go to 5 life with a CoP: Red out and tons of mana - they can easily drop 3 Rings and shock you out of the game (Can you tell I've learned this lesson the hard way?)  Flaring Pain backed up with lots of spells is often easily counterable by the time they set it up, as in the meantime you've been digging through your deck with draws, Brainstorms, etc. looking for those Drains and BEBs.  Cursed Scroll becomes much less of a factor with an Oath on the board as they don't want to cast all their spells in hand.

>>Wait is Trisklion better? it dosn't require mana to use and is colourless. Plus is easier to hardcast.

Actually I'd argue it's tougher to hardcast, but I run 4 red sources in my deck so results may vary.   Two big factors I see for Hydra over Trisk:
1) Triskelion is susceptible to more removal.
2) Hydra can shoot more things.

They might be non-factors (If you're 'going off', you're 'going off') but I like the faster clock Hydra provides.  I think the mana investment is a non-issue - if you've already committed Oath to the board you should have plenty of setup already.

>>The fact that by playing black you get the following cards should also sway you away from white:  Demonic Tutor, Mind Twist, Deed (with the Green), Yawgmoth's Will.  

Back when Oath was viable, Mind Twist was too much of a liability because decks still ran Misdirections main.  Also, YawgWill is almost worthless in unpowered Oath; you'd rather Bless stuff back to use it many times, not remove it from the game forever.

>>The fact that you lose StP is insignificant, considering your win condition works only when they have creatures.

No offense, but this REALLY sounds like someone who's either new to Oath or never tested this theory.  Yes, on paper, Swords sounds counterproductive to the goal of Oath - but you don't always have an Oath on the board, and a lot of times you really, really want to be able to deal with that first turn Negator or Hyppie.  This also helps a lot against swarms - 2 Savannah Lions is ok, but 3 Savannah Lions, one with Empyrial Armor, was just too fast for this deck.  Once again, the real reason for White isn't StP or Balance; it's CoP Red.  How did GUB Oath deal with Sligh?
For the record, I will say GUB is better prepared for the control matchup pre-board.  But, I think in the first game, Sligh was a bigger threat than control was to Oath.  Post-board there are many strategies to beat control decks, but only one real way to really kill Sligh.

>>The comment about Duress not being better than counterspells against combo is ABSURD, TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY WRONG.  The current preferred method of kill for combo is Tendrils.  Almost all counterspells are utterly useless against the Storm powered Tendrils kill.  Duress on the other hand can grab Tendrils and put it into the graveyard with no effect.  

Well, I agree on the Duress>CSpell point, but Duress isn't gonna do much against a Mind's Desire-fueled Tendrils kill either.  If you're that scared, there's always Stifle, or Orim's Chant (Respond to the Storm Trigger on Desire?)

[Ric_Flair]

Quote Back when Oath was viable, Mind Twist was too much of a liability because decks still ran Misdirections main.  Also, YawgWill is almost worthless in unpowered Oath; you'd rather Bless stuff back to use it many times, not remove it from the game forever.

So are we trying to make this deck a modern, viable deck?  Or are we trying to make this deck good for an environment that no longer exists?  If we are modernizing it, Black is the way to go.  

Quote Well, I agree on the Duress>CSpell point, but Duress isn't gonna do much against a Mind's Desire-fueled Tendrils kill either.  If you're that scared, there's always Stifle, or Orim's Chant (Respond to the Storm Trigger on Desire?)

Have you played Duress against combo?  Unless they win on Turn 1 Duress is very good.  If they Win on Turn 1 no white card (barring Orim's Chant, and this only if you go first) can save you.  Duress is very good against combo, control, and Prison Workshop decks, coincidentally, all the of decks that are good right now.  

In the current metagame Black is clearly the better choice for Oath decks.  In the metagame that this deck was designed for, it was a close call, but since that meta no longer exists, who cares?  Black is the right call.

[FyreStar]

Quote (Ric_Flair @ Nov. 12 2003,08:55)So are we trying to make this deck a modern, viable deck?  Or are we trying to make this deck good for an environment that no longer exists?  If we are modernizing it, Black is the way to go.  

I believe that the point Tristal was trying to make was that those two particular cards weren't valid points in favor of UGB (unpowered) Oath.  

Anyways, at this point black has become the clear and obvious choice as a third color.  The most important reason to run white instead during previous metagames was the Sligh matchup, which was very difficult if the Sligh player was skilled.  Access to Chalice of the Void gives UGB builds an easy answer in the sideboard these days.  Does this modernize the deck?  For some.  It certainly doesn't make it viable, though.  

A few other issues:  I don't think Visara has any place in the deck.  She's far too slow to handle a weenie deck with an agressive draw.  That she can tap to kill Psychatog is not important.. If you are activating Oath against Psychatog, the game has already been decided.  Trampling over for an extra six isn't tough, and in most cases, 'Tog can use it's superior drawing capabilities to out counter the Oath player until Time Walk is available.  If they can't do those things, any of your other creatures would be sufficient to hold the 'Tog off until you can start your recursion.  The optimal creature build, in my opinion, is:

1x Morphling
1x Spike Weaver
1x Ancient Hydra

The reasons for Weaver are evident.  Hydra is a great machine gun.  He'll handle anything from Pups to Piledrivers to Lions to Hyppies to Negators to Swarms to Welders and Metalworkers.  The mana investment is negligible, and he can swing for 5 in a pinch.  Hydra will save more life than the 4 you can get from Baloth or Feeder.  He's what the maindeck needs; an answer to the majority of situations.  So is Morphling.  Paying 5 for a Morphling seems terrible these days, but Oath doesn't have to pay 5.  The simple fact is that he's more often useful than not.  One case is the wMUD matchup.  Floating mana through a Tangle Wire to untap Superman and attack is an option other creatures don't have.  Most of the situations in which he's not useful, nothing would be anyway (i.e. vs. Long).  

The decision to run manlands is primarily a metagame choice.  Factories used to be key to the control matchup... Now? Not so much.  Most of the decks are just too fast these days for a measly 10-turn clock, particularly since most of them can do that majority of winning in the space of one turn.  In a field of workshops and LED's, Wasteland is a much better choice.  In a field of control decks or scrubby aggro, the manlands are.  I always prefer Factories over Treetops because of their lower activation cost.  Oath is control, and very mana hungry.  The green mana produced by Treetops isn't particularly useful in the Fetchland Era.  I also think that Strip Mine is too valuable to cut.

Personally, I've never been happy with the Intuition/AK engine in Oath.  I haven't tested it post-Mirrodin yet though, so I'll reserve judgment for now.  I've also lately been leaning towards a 3-Cunning Wish build.

Thanks,
FyreStar

[Queequeg]

Quote >>The fact that you lose StP is insignificant, considering your win condition works only when they have creatures.

No offense, but this REALLY sounds like someone who's either new to Oath or never tested this theory.  Yes, on paper, Swords sounds counterproductive to the goal of Oath - but you don't always have an Oath on the board, and a lot of times you really, really want to be able to deal with that first turn Negator or Hyppie.  This also helps a lot against swarms - 2 Savannah Lions is ok, but 3 Savannah Lions, one with Empyrial Armor, was just too fast for this deck.

I don't now who said what you are quoting but Iam fairly sure it wasn't me, the ability to single out targets for removal is vital, either against creatures which somehow are problematic even with oath on the table, or creatures that as you rightly say are to fast to deal with otherwise i.e negators and such.

Quote >>The comment about Duress not being better than counterspells against combo is ABSURD, TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY WRONG.  The current preferred method of kill for combo is Tendrils.  Almost all counterspells are utterly useless against the Storm powered Tendrils kill.  Duress on the other hand can grab Tendrils and put it into the graveyard with no effect.  

I'll back down to more experience of a newer meta here. My meta takes a while to catch up and trendrils decks like long arn't around. Storm in general is yet to be exploited. If the meta changes in this direction then yes I would agree that Duress is an unrivalled countermeasure.

Quote >>Alot of people think sligh is a easy match, but is actually pritty hard.
With CoP: Red on the board, the only things you have to worry about are Flaring Pain, Cursed Scroll, and Barbarian Ring.  Just make sure you don't get cocky and decide you can go to 5 life with a CoP: Red out and tons of mana - they can easily drop 3 Rings and shock you out of the game (Can you tell I've learned this lesson the hard way?)  Flaring Pain backed up with lots of spells is often easily counterable by the time they set it up, as in the meantime you've been digging through your deck with draws, Brainstorms, etc. looking for those Drains and BEBs.  Cursed Scroll becomes much less of a factor with an Oath on the board as they don't want to cast all their spells in hand.

I don't now what sligh decks you are playing against but the biggest enermy here will be a early anhk. Barbarian ring is really subopt for any sligh deck regardless of the meta.

Quote So are we trying to make this deck a modern, viable deck?  Or are we trying to make this deck good for an environment that no longer exists?  If we are modernizing it, Black is the way to go.  

Whats the piont? The primer was written with a creature heavy meta in mind. When The meta is control/combo heavy choose a different deck.

Remember this was written a while back, and My meta has always been creature heavy, its by far not the cutting edge of meta. On a side note I think alot of peoples metas are like this they have to contend with lots of scrub, slighs ww, sui budget decks. £1000 workshop, keeper and long decks are rare, the only combo decks I see in my meta are dragon, and various pebbles style ones,oh and aluren. None of which are fast enough to take out Oath, well dragon is a little problematic.

Play oath when your meta suits, in which case W is likely to be a better colour choice over black ( marginally).

[Ric_Flair]

Quote I don't now what sligh decks you are playing against but the biggest enermy here will be a early anhk. Barbarian ring is really subopt for any sligh deck regardless of the meta.

This is a truly humorous quote.  Ankh Sligh hasn't been good since before Gush was restricted. CotV all but ensures that Ankh Sligh is dead.  Furthermore, I@n's T8 Vintage Championship deck ran Rings and he would have finished even better had he played the correctly.  Again I think this is a sign that the deck needs to change.  I am more than willing to help test that change, but if we are just going to listen to you defend choices for last year's metagame I am not posting anymore.

[kirdape3]

Oath honestly does not like either Goblin Sligh or Ankh Sligh.  Goblins sets up too fast for Oath to matter and Ankh Sligh doesn't need to have a creature on the board to kill you anyways.

Also, Oath is essentially bad Tog.  You don't have a reliable kill mechanism at all (3 turns for Avatar, seven for a Treetop Village, five for a Baloth... not good), but you trade that for somewhat better anti-creature defenses.

[Queequeg]

Quote --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote  
I don't now what sligh decks you are playing against but the biggest enermy here will be a early anhk. Barbarian ring is really subopt for any sligh deck regardless of the meta.
 
This is a truly humorous quote.  Ankh Sligh hasn't been good since before Gush was restricted. CotV all but ensures that Ankh Sligh is dead.  Furthermore, I@n's T8 Vintage Championship deck ran Rings and he would have finished even better had he played the correctly.  Again I think this is a sign that the deck needs to change.  I am more than willing to help test that change, but if we are just going to listen to you defend choices for last year's metagame I am not posting anymore

Anhk is still played in my meta because of its ability to hurt fetch lands so much. Still I havn't played competatively In quite a while so this is probably true.

Barbarian ring is still a pile though, it just gets wastelanded before you can use it in most cases. When I play sligh I would rather run mountains instead. This thread isn't about Sligh and so I don't care.

Lastly I like to crush the myth that everybody plays in the current ideal meta, they don't and I don't either. It completely defeats the purpose of posting if experince users like yourself Ric_Flair will only give advice on the current leading metagame even when a user clearly posts what there metagame is and is not like. So cutt the odd player a little slack who isn't forunate enough to live in a area or even country that supports the type 1 format as much as your self, most of us are still catching up.
 

[Tristal]

Now we're talking!  Queequeg, give us your metagame and let's talk about optimizing the deck.

[Queequeg]

My deck is opt for my meta, that why it is built that way and I don't really feel the need to change it.

But if you are intreasted it sees mostly lower budget aggro decks (Sligh, Zoo, ect) and aggro control (WW, Fish, Sui). Combo and pure Control are in the minority. Few players have power. Very scrubby decks are also popular.

Hence the reason why I play Oath

[Tristal]

What do you sideboard against the Sui deck?  I found Sui was the most difficult aggro matchup when I played (Before gro variants came out in force).  I tried Disrupt which actually worked reasonably well, and of course Misdirection.

[Queequeg]

Sui is tricky, just because it can have such a fast opening hand. If they get Swamp, ritual, Duress, Hymn, follow by sinkhole, then negator. Unless you can counter and plowshare then is game over.

I side in a 3rd misdirection for a Counterspell, a 3rd swords for Cunning Wish, Akroma replaces Morphling, Balthor replaces Feeder( Beef is more important than infinate fogging against sui). A main Board naturalise replaces Powder Keg.

The plan is to keep your opening hand, once you can defend off the early disruption the game swings massively in your favour. Hopely Plowshares will finnish off any negators or hyppies that hit the table before your Oath does.

The worse case senerio is if Planar void or Distopia hit table, both are must counters but the naturalise might just save your ass.

However once oath is working you have won, espically when Akroma is in play. Even if Dytopia does turn up is usally to late to save there ass.

Sui is a tough match, it is built purposely to take out keeper and is control kin, if it is the pigeon deck in your meta then more of the sideboard can dedicated to additional Plowshares, and misdirections, as well as naturalise.