Library of Alexandria in Keeper

[Rico Suave]

I find this really interesting.  Should Library of Alexandria stay in Keeper?

Points for:
1) It provides amazing card draw.
2) At the very least it can produce colorless mana.
3) It has the ability to "cantrip" even if destroyed.

Points against:
1) Hand disruption, primarily in the form of Duress, makes it tough to keep 7 cards in hand.
2) Force of Will is very important to keep up with the format's speed nowadays, and that cuts down on the ability to keep 7 cards in hand.
3) It takes up a land drop that doesn't produce colored mana or acceleration.

Well, I figured this has certainly been on many people's minds, and it's even been brought up before.  I wanted to bring it out into the open.  What do you all think?

[jpmeyer]

Yes, but pretty much ONLY because it's a land so the upgrade to say, another dual doesn't give that much of an improvement.

[PhOeNiX]

It really depends if you decide to run Isochron Scepter in Keeper or not.

[Eastman]

Quote (PhOeNiX @ Nov. 02 2003,20:39)It really depends if you decide to run Isochron Scepter in Keeper or not.

no I don't think it makes a difference.

You see... (and I've tried to explain this before... if you've ever played Keeper you'll find your memory should serve to verify the obvious)

LoA DOES tap for colorless


LoA ALSO taps to draw a card sometimes.\n\n

[CrazyCarl]

I was considering cutting it to add fit in my 4th Wasteland which I'm still unable to find room for.

[TracerBullet]

Here's the question- How often are you unhappy to see it?

[Toad]

Probably in every non control matchups. Or every time I need a coloured mana source. Or when I only have 3 cards in hand. Pretty often then.

The Library only shines in true blue based control matchups, and is weak/bad in all the other matchups. It's a really slow draw engine considering the fact that the fundamental turn in T1 is the second. I'm really more reluctant to drop a first turn Library nowadays if this prevents me from having access to Mana Drain on my second turn.

[MoreFling]

it's too slow to keep up with the speed of the format. Like Toad said, it only is really good in pure control mirrors.

[Spizzard]

But even if it is too slow, how is it not worth running over a dual or fetchland?  Colorless mana isn't a big deal.  LoA breaks the control matchup.  Another dual might help a little bit, but with fetchlands, the colored base is already very strong.

[Eastman]

Quote (Spizzard @ Nov. 03 2003,07:56)But even if it is too slow, how is it not worth running over a dual or fetchland?  Colorless mana isn't a big deal.  LoA breaks the control matchup.  Another dual might help a little bit, but with fetchlands, the colored base is already very strong.

I agree

[rozetta]

Quote it only is really good in pure control mirrors

I'd guess that we're probably going to be seeing more of these in the near future given that people are starting to take an interest in keeper, mono-u and urphid again. I'd definitely keep it in my deck, although I do appreciate the problem of there being 1-2 blue sources too few in current Keeper builds.

[Toad]

There are some matchups where coloured mana is an issue. Against Welder MUD, for example, when the build packs 4 Wastelands, a Strip Mine and some Petrified Fields. Even more against MUD. These two decks have a big threat density and you almost never have 7 cards in hand. When playing Welder MUD against Keeper, I'm pretty happy when my opponent has a first turn LoA, because this means no Mana Drain before turn 3. In these matchups, I'd rather have a fourth Volcanic Island, because Prison hates Red producing lands.

Against Combo decks, an opening hand containing a dual and a LoA as your only mana sources should probably be parised. You may have kept it if the LoA was a dual or a fetchland.

I'm not saying LoA is a bad card. I'm just saying it's way to slow to compete with the current metagame, and most of the time it's just a colorless mana source.

[Ric_Flair]

Playing this weekend against Hulk, I can honestly say that LoA should not be cut.  

If its only benefit was the possibility of using it for the first few turns it would warrant inclusion in the deck.  But with Scepter and other card drawers in the new Keeper deck, the card's power is amplified.  One of our games came down to who got Wasteland first.  Library has the potential to swing the game in your favor to an unrecoverable degree if it is unanswered or unchecked over a period of three or more turns.  Free, uncounterable card drawing is simply too good.  With increased drawing power because of Scepter LoA is again a premiere card in this deck.  When Library is at its peak, there are few cards in the entire game as good, and it can run at peak efficient more now than it has in the past five years.  Duress has a lessened metagame presence and Scepter adds drawing.

Keep LoA.

[wuaffiliate]

its better in decks that actually draws cards like say phids or standstill...

just take out loa so you are easier to beat, thx.

[Matt The Great]

If you have a Scepter going, why do you need Library?

[Rico Suave]

Here's another question:

If Library were unrestricted, how many would you run?  Would you run more than 1?  If so, how many land/colored mana would you run?

[Ric_Flair]

Quote If you have a Scepter going, why do you need Library?

I am not sure if you need both, but having them together is certainly nice.  Scepter can set up a situation in which Library is useful well into the game.  Library can allow you to draw Scepterable instants.  All in all the two cards really feed each other quite well.  Granted this is based on limited testing, tournament play, and observation, but I really like them together.  

If it were unrestricted, which is an AWFUL idea, I think that I would probably redo the whole Keeper deck and make it more of a draw go type deck with 3 Libraries and multiple Scepters.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote If you have a Scepter going, why do you need Library?

MtG, you're usually better than this.  This is like asking why run Deep Analysis along side Ancestral recall.  Can you ever have enough draw power?

Yes the early game is more important.  This doesn't mean that LoA is not still an excellent card.  When I first started playing, I considered taking out LoA games 2&3 against Suicide, until it single-handedly won me a few games in that matchup.

Almost every card in Magic is situational in some way or another.  The raw power of the card is undeniable.

[Matt The Great]

Quote MtG, you're usually better than this.  This is like asking why run Deep Analysis along side Ancestral recall.  Can you ever have enough draw power?

Actually, yes, you can. This is why I never liked AK in Keeper -when you spend all your time drawing cards and never doing anything else, you'll lose. AK is a lot stronger in combo-control (Psychatog, The Shining) because you can almost ignore the opponent. 'Regular' Keeper can't do that, so it doesn't necessarily want to be drawing cards from the get-go. This is why I don't like LoA anymore - it's really just another restricted power card, instead of being fully synergistic with the rest of the deck, which more and more wants to be playing its hand out (even as other decks demand that answers be swiftly forthcoming). An active Scepter is game-winning in and of itself (not to mention that there's basically no time other than turn one when you'll have a full hand, and even a turn one LoA's efficacy can be called into question when it causes you to stumble on your Mana Drain-capabilities).

[Grand Inquisitor]

i apologize.  i didn't realize this was exclusively an 'loa in keeper' thread.  i thought it was a 'loa in -name blue based deck here-' thread.

MtG, your argument is completely spot on.  However, there are still reasons not to drop loa.  in spite of a format-wide shift towards the early game, there are still many matches where nothing critical is played early, or nothing that keeper can't trade 1 for 1 with a removal/wish spell.  In these cases, loa can single-handedly win the game by providing even +1 cards per turn.  especially if control mirror's become more popular (this may be a NE bias), loa will be worthwhile.

[Matt The Great]

I'd probably want LoA in the control mirror (though in my [admittedly few in number] latest testing games against another control deck (some kind of 5cKeeper) I've only very rarely had seven cards in hand), but cards that are only good in a few matchups don't belong maindeck.

LoA can easily overpower weaker "used to be good" decks (that, I hasten to add, you should win against anyway) but against the scary competetion (where it becomes a game of inches), it's not so hot.

The best use (or my favorite, at any rate) of LoA is that bad players automatically Waste it without a second glance.\n\n

[jpmeyer]

I don't know, I MIGHT run a 2nd, cutting Mox Emerald.  For any more I'd need to be cutting Wastelands and I wouldn't want to have to go down to 2 Wastes/1 Strip.

[Zherbus]

If library was restricted, I'd run more...but no more than two at the most maindeck, and 2 more in the board.

[Ultima]

I would definitely run at least 2 in the main.

Library should never be unrestricted, its far too powerful to have more than 1 despite its apparent "slowness".

[Tindemans]

but yeah well... this wasn't really the question from the beginning right?

I think it could be a metagame card, although wider than all other cards labeled metagame card. if you expect enough (non-prison) control, play it main. if you expect somehwat less, you can play it sb or just depend on sb'ing it out, although I don;t like this cards as being a sideboard card.
if you expect very few control, skip it.

Think Eindhoven. Hell you'd want it!

expect Mud/Dragon/Agrro, and all low budget areas where you accidentally fell in between, you don't need it.

[Fever]

I think it really is totally a metagame decision. If your area is light on Keeper and other blue-based control, then cutting LoA for a 4 Wasteland or Volcanic is probably a good call. Even in the past, i have always believed that there were enough matchups where it was marginal that it shouldnt be automatic, with the way T1 is evolving, i can certainly see it being cut. Think about how much the archetype has changed lately, when cards like Braingeyser and Stroke are considered too slow to make an impact, the only thing saving the Library is the fact that its a land.

[BillTheDuck]

Here where we play real magic, LoA is awesome. Its not good against fast combo (dragon and long), and it only really shines in the control matchups (probably the most common matchup in a highly competitive tournament), but it still taps for mana and sometimes a card in any matchup. I usually recite these words to 12 year olds coming up to me asking why its worth so much. "You have to have seven cards in your hand. Do you know how rare that is?".

Oh and:

Quote but cards that are only good in a few matchups don't belong maindeck.

How bout wasteland, or Swords to Plowshares (you know, the card that can be dead that doesn't tap for mana)? I assume you play those.\n\n

[jpmeyer]

If you want to run 4 LoA, you would need to go down to like 2 Wastelands (or maybe even 1 if you don't Mox Emerald to cut.)  Ironically, you'd probably lose more to the other deck's LoA since you wouldn't be able to kill it as easily.  Never mind the fact that with turn 1 LoA going second you can't effectively fight a turn 3 Ancestral with Drain backup from them.