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Author Topic: Updated Long  (Read 2266 times)
Smmenen
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« on: November 24, 2003, 03:59:16 am »

I was going to do an article featuring some more matchups and another updated look at long, but its probably not necessary unless LED isn't restricted, which it may not be.  I was going to include a KC tournament report and a suggested updated list, but I'll just do that here.

Smart people know now that chalice for 1 is better than chalice for 0.  That makes Overload/Crumble Old Tech.  This also increases the necessity of a good SB.  

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Glimmervoid
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
3 Chromoatic Sphere
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

Protecting/Setting up the Combo:
4 Duress
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral
1 Time Walk
1 Chain of Vapor

Tutors:
4 Burning Wish
1 DT
1 Vamp
1 Mystical
1 Consult

I Win Now:
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Mind's Desire
1 Necropotence
1 Wheel
1 Windfall
1 Tinker
1 Jar
1 Timetwister

Finishers:
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB:
1 Tendrils
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Diminishing Returns
3 Crumble
4 Xantid Swarm
2 Primitive Justice
2 Meltdown
1 Stifle

Some Comments:

Before the KC tournament, I had dome some thinking about the necessity of having a Tendrils maindeck - a decion made way back
http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....;t=9890

For people who are really good with the deck, I honestly don't think the maindeck Tendrils is necessary anymore.  It can win you games if you screw up - and it can win you games faster, but it won't really win you games you wouldn't have otherwise been able to win by playing a bit longer.

In other words, Tendrils is a really close crutch, but it is a crutch - but i'm too pussy to take it out.  But I think for the strong willed, it should happen.  Spoils of the Vault.  This is a card that could come in in a few copies if you cut a few cards.

Glimmervoid.  Worst Case scenario, you use it like a lotus petal to cast Xantid Swarm - and even then its very good.  Glimmer void is auto-include now - in my testing I have never had to sacrifice it for lack of artifacts.  I have never had any reason to doubt my own capabilities with Long - but other people have been insistent that it is terrible or whatever.  I hope that LED isn't restricted so we get some more time to abuse this deck.  

In the meantime, the metagame should be shifting to deal with DARGON, so that should leave some room for long to come in and clean up say, in a month or two.  

The Sideboard requires alot of thought for this deck.  I think this SB configuration is probably as close to optimal as you can get in a random metagame.  

If LED gets restricted, the deck barely loses any steam.  In very limited testing so far, 3 Elvish Spirit Guide has shown to be very robust in the three LED slots as Green Lotus Petals.  I look forward to what the future brings.  In the meantime - tune your other decks for DARGON or else play long Wink.

EDIT:
I forgot to mention this - and its an important point strategically.  For a long time I harped on the importance of winning as quickly as possible.  With Stifles and other cards lurking in the wings, going for the fast kill may be unadviseable as opposed to going for the secure kill.  

Stephen Menendian\n\n

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spevack
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« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2003, 04:22:00 pm »

Steve,

Quick question about the manabase.

Why do you run Gemstone as a 4-of instead of Glimmervoid?  If you've never run into trouble with having to sac it, isn't is strictly better than Gemstone?

Thanks.\n\n

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Kaervek
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« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2003, 04:19:32 am »

Quote
Quote If you've never run into trouble with having to sac it, isn't is strictly better than Gemstone?

Statistically, the more Glimmervoids you run, the larger the chance becomes of running into trouble (meaning: having no artifacts at EOT). Two might well be the optimal number.

Also, Gemstone Mine is fantastic here. I haven't played Long for that...erm...long (a while at the very beginning and I'm just getting back into it) but the Gemstone mines have never been an issue either. The game just doesn't last long enough for them to deplete. If they do, you either no longer really need the mana (LEDs....) or you're pretty much losing anyway.

I just gotta say....the current version looks MAD risky. There's even more 1cc spells than there used to be...22 maindeck + another 8 in the SB. And that's not counting the proposed Spoils. Now I do realise you have access to Justice and Meltdown in the board, but a chalice for 1 isn't just for 'smart people' anymore.....it plain takes out half your deck.
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LemanRuss
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« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2003, 05:14:45 am »

Hi Steve,


I would have had more information about the use of the lone Stifle.

Then, I am surprised you have no way to deal with enchantments in the sideboard; two weeks ago, I won a french tournament with your previous decklist (wich I found to be as optimal as possible), and I must say that Hull Break saved my ass often, as I encountered a lot of Pyrostatic Pillars - and even if it is very possible to win with one on the table, I found it to be quite difficult anyway...

And how do you use your Meldowns/Primitive Justice in your sideboarding strategy ?


Thank you for your work on this deck.
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jeek
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« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2003, 08:09:06 am »

Have you considered Hurkyl's Recall as possible mana acceleration / defense against Chalice? Seems like it'd be a good fit and could be used for either purpose.
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You know what irks me the most?
That MaRo had the audacity to taint the good name of the Rakdos by including a justification for HoFLong in their article.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr241
Kaervek
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« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2003, 08:22:21 am »

We tried it in Dutch Tendrils, and it single-handledly won me many a game. Keep in mind however that (mostly because of the lack of LEDs in that particular build) the deck is on average at least a full turn slower than Long, if not more. Hurkyl's Recall means upping your spell count, creating additional mana, and getting rid of Chalices / Null Rods.

In Long, this may not be necessary as it's faster (less chance of a crippling Chalice seeing play), plays more spells (no need to up the count further), has more fast mana available (again: LED), and unlike most Dutch Tendrils builds has game one access to it's SB for artifact removal.
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jdl
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« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2003, 12:14:07 am »

Quote from: LemanRuss+Nov. 24 2003,20:14
Quote (LemanRuss @ Nov. 24 2003,20:14)and I must say that Hull Break saved my ass often, as I encountered a lot of Pyrostatic Pillars - and even if it is very possible to win with one on the table, I found it to be quite difficult anyway...

http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=20;t=11557

Notice that there are a grand total of three Pyrostatic Pillars in the entire top-8.  His metagame doesn't exactly force him to worry about enchantments.

Personally, I use a Hull Breach in the sideboard and a Hurkyl's Recall in the main.  I see Chalice, Pillar, Sphere, and Null Rod in hordes around here.

-- Jim
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Andreas
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« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2003, 03:51:30 am »

Just a thought regarding Smmenen's list. How about the following maindeck adjustment:

- 4 Duress
- 1 Chain of Vapor
- 1 Chromatic Sphere

+ 4 Force of Will
+ 2 Hurkyl's Recall

This will give you an answer against a Chalice/Sphere dropped by your opponent on turn 1 when you go second. For the combo itself Duress and Force of Will are both equally useless.

With this switch you'd have a total of 16 blue cards, which is not that much but might be enough.

Hurkyl's Recall has two advantages over Chain of Vapor:

1) As stated by Kaervek, if not needed to bounce troublesome permanents of your opponent it can accelerate your own combo.

2) It can get rid of multiple Spheres/Chalices/Null Rods in one go, where a Chain of Vapor would not be able to accomplish much.

Of course it has the disadvantage of the increased casting cost.\n\n

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Kaervek
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« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2003, 04:04:38 am »

Quote
Quote With this switch you'd have a total of 16 blue cards, which is not that much but might be enough.

In my experience, it is not enough. Dutch Tendrils ran a few more blue cards (17 or 18 total) and I was screwed by FoW on various occasions. The whole problem is: you really don't wanna pitch anything other than Brainstorm to it, and even that hurts.

Quote
Quote This will give you an answer against a Chalice/Sphere dropped by your opponent on turn 1 when you go second. For the combo itself Duress and Force of Will are both equally useless.

You're making the deck redundant(-ish) against a POSSIBLE bad situation. I thought you wanted to add Hurkyl's Recall for this reason? Why do both? I mean, you have a multifunctional reactive solution with H. Recall, and a proactive solution with Duress. Why change the procative one to a less card-advantageous solution (FoW) that MAY save your ass once or twice during a tourney when you also have access to a perfectly acceptable reactive solution?

Quote
Quote It can get rid of multiple Spheres/Chalices/Null Rods in one go

Just how long do you expect these games to last?

In my last post, I tried to clarify that Hurkyl's Recall is a good card in Dutch Tendrils for various reasons, and also why it mat well not be necessary in Long. But ofcourse noone ever got hurt by testing Smile

Quote
Quote Of course it has the disadvantage of the increased casting cost.

This is not necessarily a disadvantage. Like Steve said, chalice for 1 is tech. It never hurts to have a 2cc solution (except that, with Burning Wish, you really already HAVE that...)\n\n

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Gzeiger
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« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2003, 04:36:34 am »

Does Time Walk really help? I took it out of my deck some time ago and I've never missed it. It makes mulligan decisions harder and it's mostly dead when you're trying to go off, and you just don't have enough lands in the deck to use it for setting up a mana position. What exactly do you use it for?
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Kaervek
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« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2003, 05:02:15 am »

For one thing, for Necro. I hate waiting a turn to use all the goodies I ripped off the top Smile

And I've used it myself on many occasions when I used up most of my resources to set up Bargain / Jar and didn't feel confident that I could win with the small amount of available (untapped) mana I had left. Just invest a mere 1U, screw the spell count this turn, et voila. Untapped Acadamy etc. etc. Just activate Jar or Bargain for the win. With all that mana, you should easily be able to up the spell count to lethal numbers. At worst, Walk is a cantrip, which is never 'bad'.\n\n

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Luc, Use The Force
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« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2003, 09:26:45 pm »

Has anyone tried Spoils of the Vault?

My list is one card different from Semen man's one (4th Sphere in the place of the Walk) so I have a slot here and could try it.

Any thought about Spoils in this version?
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Smmenen
Guest
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2003, 12:34:54 am »

4th Sphere is very good.  Time Walk does have some merits.  

The issue of time walk boils down to what to put in for it - there are few cards remaining in type one that are better than Walk that aren't already in the deck that would fit Walks spot.  The spell would basically have to cost 0-3, and have an immediate effect on the game.  

Understanding what could be better than walk requires recognizing why walk is good.

- Walk acts as a "mox" if you have to land in hand and you are playing first.  In this regard, you can then walk, and duress and then go off.  

- Walk allows you to speed your game up as quickly as possible against Control - which, if it is to survive, must expend resources fighting you, and then you either win, or you both go into topdeck mode but you have parity if you have mana on the board.  Walk is good becuase it allows you to play multiple threats on your walk turn and thus helps beat control.  This is talked about in my article.

- Walk is insane with Necropotence, turn one or two Necro + Walk is obviously insane.  

- Walk can be good if you are in a queasy situation of trying to combo out without enough resources - you can walk and untap with full power.  

Perhaps Abeyance would be better and more versatile and provides a similar effect without losing your storm count.  However, I'm not convinced its better...

Steve\n\n

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PanterA
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« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2003, 02:17:13 am »

I threw together a copy of long based on the decklist at the beginning of the post.  It's pretty much the same except I have no faith in Demonic Consultation because I always seem to get screwed.  I replaced it with spoils and it has worked out better, just because it's my luck that what I want is in the top 6.  The only time it hurts is if you are trying to force the combo out fast with too few resources.

I've only tested this deck against a crappy Pox build, WW and a couple of our random scrubbish decks and they've all been mauled except once when I screwed up on a spoils.  How does this deck fair against control?  I'm gonna read the other long post on Extreme Vintage and see what I can find but that's alot of damn posts to dig through so it'll take a while
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Smmenen
Guest
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2003, 02:32:11 am »

Read this:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=5856

and if you haven't read it, read this:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=5820

All the principles of beating Control are espoused in the first article listed.  Did you consult for a restricted card?  If you consult for a restricted card, I'm going to spank you unless you made a calculated decision, for example, You win if you consult for black lotus and you don't need to draw any more cards.

Steve
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