Neo-TnT

[Jacob Orlove]

Herse's the build that just won in heidelburg. Do we even need to wait for jan 1st?

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

2 Duplicant
4 Juggernaut
1 Masticore
4 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Triskelion

4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Anger
4 Blood Moon
4 Goblin Welder
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Druid Lyrist

Lands:
6 Forest
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
4 Taiga
1 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

SB:
3 Artifact Mutation
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Druid Lyrist
1 Naturalize
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Tormod's Crypt
 
3 Uktabi and 2 Duplicant MD is some serious metagaming.

Muzzono: the real problem with budget builds (in my experience) has been a lack of cheap artifacts to use with welder. Dropping some quick fat isn't that hard, but without more artifacts, welding it back can be tough.
And Blood Moon doesn't stop them from being artifacts under 8th ed rules. It will turn Tree of Tales into Great Furnace, but in a 2 color build, there should be some room for them.

[Vegeta2711]

I haven't tested these new builds, so I may be missing something, bare with me here.

I don't get why everyone is so quick to cut the fat out of their decks, as it pretty much wipes out one avenue of attack and makes you more dependent on Survival. Originally it was beatdown with the tubbies (Jugg and Chi), Welders and SOTF. With a whole 4 Juggernaut you can't rely on early beats anymore.

Other than Juggernaut the rest of the fat seems sort of lacking. Ignoring the fact there all 1-2 of's which means you have no good chance of drawing them short of SOTF. Karn gets stopped by anything that has legs, Trike is awesome but costs 6 ultimately, Phyrexian Colossus costs 8 plus life to untap and Core is probably the one other good beatdown critter, but there's a whole one of him. Remember I'm judging these strictly on efficiency of killing the other guy. They obviously serve other purposes, but the problem stems from relying so much on SOTF that if it gets stopped and you TD a couple of these guys they are gonna be shit.\n\n

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Vegeta: You are totally right that the new TnT is less efficient at killing the opponent (less beats). But the way I see it, TnT lost a bit of fat in order to gain more disruption. Pillars and Caps are amazing. In a way, TnT gave up some of it's power towards aggro to fight control and combo. If you look STRICTLY at Tubbies, the old versions ran:

4 Juggs
4 Su-Chi
2 Trike
1 Masticore
1 Karn

The newer versions run typically between 9-10 creatures, so there's only a difference of 2-3 creatures. But keep in mind the inclusion of pillars means that you aren't TOTALLY reliant on creatures. In most games I've played, Pillar deals ATLEAST 6 damage in a game.

Finally, if you're left in TD mode, your critters aren't necessarily shit. Remember, you dropped 2-3 fatties for more lower CC creatures (ranger, shaman, Replica).. The only 3 creatures that are a pain to cast are trike and collosus.

I think in this new environment, you can cut back on tubbies. Budget aggro is dead, and you need to prepare for control and combo. Even here, where aggro is dominant, if you want to T8, you better be ready to face 1 or 2 fully powered control/combo decks.

[BreathWeapon]

I agree with Vegeta, at the very least TnT must run 4 Juggs and 4 Su-Chi, otherwise you aren't really playing TnT anymore.

I'm not sure I agree with MD Bloodmoon. If I wanted to play Bloodmoon.dec i'd run U/r Scepter. Solemn Simalcrum and Duplicant doesn't feel right to me, I love my Tubbies.

So, is it unanimous that we should stay away from G/R/u and G/R/b builds altogether?

Is Survival still the right engine for a Tubbies deck? Despite the fact that it defines TnT, Thirst for Knowledge is a good engine by itself and Blue has a lot more to offer than Green. Ofcourse, my vision of the Jan 1st Workshop decks are pretty radical ... so take it with a grain of salt.

MD Swarms are

[Toast]

wow...people are taking this deck in so many different directions

duplicant is actually a great card and I have been advocating it ever since it was printed.

I am not sure if I agree with all the fat that is being cut though.

elf replica is a very cool card that I completely missed while looking through mirrodin.


Obviously if we want to start optimizing this deck we need to agree on a skeleton.

here is what I would suggest

first the tools:

Quote
4 Survival
4 Chalice
4 Welder
1 Duplicant
1 Elf Replica
2 Triskellion
1 Anger
2 Squee
=19

Duplicant is an amazing card. Spot removal has always been one of the things TnT needed and that is exactly what it got. This thing is great vs. dragon, mud, and the mirror. If you ditch this thing in the GY when dragon is going off and weld it into play targeting dragon (dragon CIP on stack) your opponent ends up with zero cards in play and you end up with no cards except for a 7/7 flyer (which really isn't that bad of a deal since you get your stuff back when it dies) It also deals very effectively with verdant force.

Chalice is amazing if you know what to set it for. 4 of these is a no brainer IMO

Karn becomes redundant when running chalice and is subpar compared to other cards

Elf replica: Finally enchantment removal that you can recur with welder

the remainder are fairly obvious inclusions

next for the fat

Quote 4 Juggernaut
3 Su-Chi
1 Phyrexian Colossus
(remainder are in tools)
=8

I think the lack of fat and the solemn thingy are all horrible ideas. TNT is an aggro deck. I have tried taking this deck in all sorts of different directions and not once did I ever contemplate cutting Su-chi. There is plenty of space in the deck for other card choices without having to cut Su-Chi.

This leaves 5 more slots for disruption or card drawing

Quote
5 ???

probably the most solid disruption spells to put in these slots are blood moon, pyrostatic pillar and jester's cap. I am leaning slightly towards 3 Jester's Cap because it is good in the most matchups (scepter + basics get around blood moon, and people can play around pillar) and it has no color requirements. for the remaining two I am undecided...it should be some sort of draw but nothing seems ideal. I am even unhappy with memory jar

Mana

Quote
7 SoLoMox
4 Workshop
1 Strip
3 Wasteland
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Mountain
4 Forest
=28

The main matchup I see people are worried about is dragon. With the MD caps, elf, and dupe and SB 2 blessing + maybe an angel, this matchup becomes very winnable.\n\n

[BreathWeapon]

How is Karn suboptimal if your running 4 CotV

Concerning Elf Replica, is anyone going to Main Deck this guy? He only really stand out as a Blood Moon hoser and Anti-Dragon tech, not that those reasons aren't enough \n\n

[MuzzonoAmi]

@Breath Weapon: Against scepter control, what are they going to do with the mana? Fire a Welder/Ranger? Impulse? To be honest, I don't care what they do, barring Energy Flux (which I expect to come in Games 2 and 3, and thus board in Elf Replica) so how is giving them GG during their mainphase so spectacular when the same source is giving me quick fat drops in the early game and free Survivaling in the late game?

@Toast: The Duplicant only copies the Power, Toughness, and Creature type of WGD. You keep all your permanents.


Generally, though, I think that cutting fat for utility creatures and disruption has been a step in the right direction. Pure aggo is really at a low point right now, and the control elements/utility creatures that you have give you an edge in the mid to late game, where you would normally loose to a stablized control deck.


Here's my list right now, but bear in mind that it's just a test deck for the moment:

// Mana
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Grim Monolith
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Wasteland
        4 Ancient Tomb
        4 Wooded Foothills
        1 Sol Ring
        4 Taiga
        2 Forest
        3 Tree of Tales
        4 Eladamari's Vineyard
// Critters
        1 Platinum Angel
        4 Goblin Welder
        2 Triskelion
        2 Pentavus
        2 Juggernaut
        1 Quirion Ranger
        1 Karn, Silver Golem
        2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
        1 Bottle Gnomes
        1 Phyrexian Colossus
// I Like to Draw Cards
        1 Memory Jar
        2 Sylvan Library
        4 Survival of the Fittest
// Incarnations
        1 Genesis
        2 Anger
        1 Brawn
// Disruption
        3 Blood Moon
// Sideboard
      4 Rack and Ruin
      3 Duplicant
      2 Uktabi Orangutan
      1 Elf Replica
      1 Blood Moon
      4 Pyrostatic Pillar

EDIT: Thanks Bastian, I fixed the list.\n\n

[Bastian]

Pretty interesting... a budget TNT:D

How good has it been? or not...?

[MuzzonoAmi]

It's been pretty soild in the early testing. The deck isn't terribly well tuned, but it has potential. Vineyard has only bitten me in the ass once so far, agaainst WelderMUD when it let them drop Turn 1 Wire, Smokestack, Sphere. But all in all it's average right now.

[Bastian]

Vineyard?? It doesn't show up in the decklist:P

[MuzzonoAmi]

bah! That's what I cut to try the Solemns out! Well, now I know what's leaving.....

[BreathWeapon]

Muzuno, giving a Scepter player free activations allows them to Moat you with Fire/Ice and gain card advantage for additional answers, its not cool. You will completely lose any advantage an early FAT drop will have against an active Scpeter, and that will leave their manabase wide open to Counter Survival all day long. Why should we use this over other possible acceleration such as ESG, which doubles as survival food?

I really don't want to see TnT turn into the random box of utility dudes. I don't think it helps much vs Control at all, why play a game where you plan on letting Control stabilize when you can SMASH FACE? The 8 Tubbies are mandatory, IMO. Its even worse vs Combo.

Why use multiple copies of Anger? Why use 2 Squee if you don't use Masticore? You already have 2 Sylvan Library, do you need Genesis as well vs Control? No MD Elf Replica?Dragon is a really common match up. Where is Manacrypt?

Other than that, MD Bloodmoon should be HOUSE. Just my .02$

[ctthespian]

Actually I cut the 4 Su-Chi's long ago when playing TNT.  Adding more utility critters and disruption.  My matchups vs control are golden in most cases.  I had a 70% win ratio or better testing against keeper.  Pyrostatic pillar is a house against control and often causes more damage than a juggernaut can before it's removed by your opponent.  Keeper for the most part runs no main deck enchantment removal.  That means at least they have to wish then remove the pillar which does at least 4 dmg to them in the process.

I think the core of TNT is the following.

4 Survival
4 Welders
4 Juggernaut
2 Triskellion
1/2 Anger ( I think anger is more important that Squee with removal being high against Welders)
1/2 Squee

After that tech creature and fat choices are for your metagame.

As far as main decked Blood Moons they are far less effective vs Scepter Keeper variants but in general are very strong in the new metagame.  I've always run 3 Pillars and 2 Caps of late but may change that to 3 Pillars and 2 Blood Moons.

-Keith\n\n

[Vegeta2711]

Alright just a theoritical here, but what if they just counter the SOTF? That's my issue with cutting fat, what good are running a lot of utility critters if they all serve different purposes and you can't control when you draw them?

I call BS on the high end control beatings. Keeper counters SOTF and then drops Plow on a stick. GG. Keeper's old plan was just countering SOTF and dealing with the threats as they came out, that was before they got the upgrades.

Pillar is good and deals decent damage. Pillar isn't good when it ends up being like your only damage source. It doesn't really disrupt until they start to get low on life.  

[MikeR-]

I have a bit of expierence w/ tnt from talking with my friend alex and james who played it exclusively for about a year and a half... but this is how i feel.

In todays metagame where control and combo and running rampant, I just dont see and ram and slam'em deck doing well.
I think today you need to have a vaired game plan, with enough tools to deal with the 10+ viable decks in the metagame, thats why i believe keeper is doing so well b/c of its ability to toolbox..

the only problem i have with tnt is that it seems everyone is heavily relying on survival to toolbox out its utility.

this is obviously not a great game plan, b/c unless u stick and early survival, u'll be drawing random assortments of utility all game.

So i offer u a bit of thought from my cluttered t1 head.

living wish.


ok now i know thats sounds horrible and i'm going to get flamed.

but the way i see it, it could be sotf 5-8 in a sense.

It would allow for tnt to have a varied ability to deal with certain decks, albite a little slower.

maybe instead of the disruption slots usually cap/moon/pillars, maybe 3 wish can be tested out as a hoser for certain decks, swarm vs control, core/trisk vs creatures and all kinds of fun tricks. but This might be completely bad, but just throwing it to the conversation...

[haro]

My thoughts on Living Wish:

Too slow.  I know you think it could be SotF 5-8, MikeR, but it's really not good enough for T1, IMO.  I've tried it, and I didn't much care for it.

You have a valid point about the utility critters.  Personally, I've never run more than 2-3 maindeck.  Which ones, has been metagame dependent.  But for me, it's always been about the tubbies.

I've been playing Stacker3 for a while now and I'm not sure if TnT can really make a comeback at this point.  Stacker3 has more gas than 2 did.  I always used Survival as a means of picking up steam after having gone into topdecking mode or just an outlet for insane stuff vs. control.

All this talk has got me thinking, though.

I would probably run the following fatties:

4 Juggernaut
4 Su-Chi
1 Masticore (owns in the Workshop Mirror and swings for 4, what more could you want?)
2 Triskelion
1 Random fat body.  I used to favor Tetravus or Thopter Squadron in this slot.  I've never cared for Phyrexian Colossus.  These days, I don't know what it would be.

Support:
4 Welders
1-2 Anger
1-2 Squee
Probably 2 of each if I could find the room, but that would be highly doubtful.

Beyond that, I'd run a Genesis, an Elf Replica and a Sex Monkey.  I'd devote the rest of the space to the disruption package and draw/search elements.

As for maindecking Blood Moon, like with everything else, I'd say that's a metagame call.  It's a house in some places, scarely worth it in others.

I'll post a decklist when I get my own computer back from the shop.

As long as I'm throwing around random-ass ideas, what do people think about using the MaskNaught in TnT?  I tried it right about the time that GAT took off, but I abandoned it fairly quickly.  I'm guessing it'd probably give you a crappy Vengeur Masque, but I'd like to hear what others have to say about it.

Edit:
Oh, and Solemn Simulacrum is all hype.  I can't imagine paying 4 for a 2/2 in a deck like TnT no matter how good its abilities are unless they make it bigger.

Second edit:  Brainstorm!  I think that Myr Enforcer or Lodestone Myr might be a good fit for the random fattie slot.\n\n

[BreathWeapon]

@Haro, Karn *cough* Karn  

[Lord of the Goats]

solemn simulacrum makes you less reliant on survival because it gives you a draw engine of sorts if you don't have survival.

on cutting su-chi, basically it got cut for chalice... without testing i'm pretty damn sure first turn chalice for 2 is better than a chi. a 4/4 wasn't big enough anyway.

elf replica is a natural for tnt... and shame on anyone who missed it.

on utility/disruption, it just needs tuning. i know in the past i've liked running as little utility as possible md... other have liked the utility approach.

i'll get around to doing some serious testing in about a week.. i'm smack in the middle of finals.  

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

While it is true the deck is now more reliant on survival, why is that such a bad thing? I see it as TnT having more focus. The entire "what happens if your survival gets countered" is relevant, but nonsense. What happens if Bazaar gets wasted in a dragon deck? Look at mask. THE ENTIRE DECK IS BASED AROUND ONE CARD. Yet it is still a great deck. Last time I checked, TnT still had 7 SoLoMoxen with 4 lands that tap for 3 mana. Yes, you are slowed down by the removal of survival, but other decks have to deal with the threat of a fatty or welder first. Personally, I've never been in a position where I've gotten my survival countered and ben shit out of luck. You deserve to lose if you keep a hand with survival as your only threat. Further, as someone has stated above, survival is often played after you drop some threats so that your not caught with your pants down if survival is countered.

As for duplicant, other than the dragon matchup, isn't it a wasted spot? you're HARDLY ever going to cast it, and if you want spot removal, Masticore and triskelion do the job quite nicely.  I will definitely test it though, as I'm hearing good things from people.

It's really interesting to see these new TnT decklists...it gives me that warm fuzzy feeling that I had when I first paid attention to this deck.


EDIT: Living wish simply isn't good enough IMO. when I tested it, there was 1 HUGE problem:

You often won't blindly get a creature because the creatures you pack would be conditional (creatures like shaman, replica, etc.). This means that when you use it, you want to cast the creature that same turn. In  this way, living wish becomes a 1U tag on a slot that could have been a creature.

This is not to say, you would cut creatures for the wish, Weakening you PRIMARY draw engine, survival.

It's a good concept, but is lacking in real play.\n\n

[Vegeta2711]

Quote What happens if Bazaar gets wasted in a dragon deck? Look at mask. THE ENTIRE DECK IS BASED AROUND ONE CARD

That would work except your examples don't hold up.

Dragon has many other ways to dump it's stuff in the grave or search out it's combo and has Duress and has FoW to protect the actual combo to begin with. Mask has Duress, Hymn and Unmask for disruption before it even drops the Mask itself. Not to mention it has ways to fetch another one in case something does happen to it.  

TnT has 0 disruptive capabilites unless your expecting to go Lotus into Blood Moon first turn. It also has 0 search capabilities for another SOTF.

Basically at this rate it's just going to be a medicore Survival deck. You may as well play Vengur Masque or Ninja Mask.

[MuzzonoAmi]

Even in the more 'tool-boxy' builds, like mine, you still have SEVEN easily hardcastalbe threats (2 Trike, 2 Pentavus, 1 Karn, and 2 Juggs) I know that running only 2 Juggernats may seem like suicide vs control, but you still have 5 other threats to make use of. And that's not counting the other 2 Fat Slots, currently occupied by Phyrexian Colosus and Platinum Angel (which looks like it's going to be cut for another Juggernaut) and aren't totally out of hardcast range. With 9 fat slots, and utility critters to beat down with, you can still win even if SOTF gets coutered. Because if they keep countering Survival, they aren't countering threats.

@BreathWeapon: If someone trys to put Plow on a stick, then they deserve to get the stick sex monekyed anyway.

[haro]

Quote (BreathWeapon @ Dec. 04 2003,01:43)@Haro, Karn *cough* Karn  

I knew I forgot forgot something.  I meant to put Karn/Gorilla Shaman under the toolbox critters.  

Karn is fine vs. control, but against anything aggressive or with a Tog, he just doesn't quite cut it in my book.  Sure, swinging for the kill with your Memory Jar is funny, but it's only a cute trick.  I'll stick with the Mox Monkey for now, until the dust settles at least.

[Lord of the Goats]

Quote (haro @ Dec. 04 2003,07:24)

Quote (BreathWeapon @ Dec. 04 2003,01:43)@Haro, Karn *cough* Karn  

I knew I forgot forgot something.  I meant to put Karn/Gorilla Shaman under the toolbox critters.  

Karn is fine vs. control, but against anything aggressive or with a Tog, he just doesn't quite cut it in my book.  Sure, swinging for the kill with your Memory Jar is funny, but it's only a cute trick.  I'll stick with the Mox Monkey for now, until the dust settles at least.

imo the key to utility in tnt is to make is as fat as possible thus:

karn>shaman
trisk it removal... and a 4/4
platimum angel... 4/4
core... 4/4

any utility that you want to cast (meaning not squee or anger) better be 4 power or in the sb unless you have a specific metagame reason. there's no reason to run elf replica main, or any other specified utility.

survival will be countered less than before, we run chalice now, everyone seems to be overlooking that

[Fever]

I have a question. Do you cast a Chalice at 2 on the first turn versus control? I know we want to lock out Mana Drain, but is it worth it at the cost of our own draw engine?

Also, about the utility, i have to agree with LotG. In my experience i have always run as little as possible, because there is nothing worse than holding an Elvish Lyrist while waiting to draw something to beat down with. Cards which double as beatdown, such as Karn and Plat. Angel are much more suited to the deck. Thats not to say you cant run a Lyrist or Shaman main if your metagame calls for it, but i would try to minimize the number of 1/1s as much as possible.

[ctthespian]

This may seem silly, but how does running chalice help get survival out?  If you set it at 2 to avoid Drains you can't cast the survival anyway.

As far as tech creatures main deck.  I think it depends on the metagame.  In a heavy metagame of Dragon I think cards like Duplicant and Elf Replica are very important.  

I've always thought that shaman is much faster, which makes him better, than Karn but less permanent as you cannot weld him back into play.  And, I've always found a Shield Sphere to be an ever important card in TNT when you need something to weld.  They can't be eaten by opponents shamans and they are a 0 drop critter for welding under SOTF.

When I played in Waterbury I noticed that my mana base more than anything hurt my games.  I think this needs to be addressed for TNT to make it in an environment with 5 strips being prevelant.

-Keith

[dicemanX]

If the metagame is Dragon heavy run Naturalize, not Duplicant.

I just don't see this card working. At all. You need to get Survival, pitch creatures until you get Duplicant in the grave and fetch a Welder, get the Welder online and only then are you set to Weld the Duplicant back. You think you can do this inside of 3 turns? Plus, relying on creatures in the graveyard to hose 8AnimateSpells.dec is a wicked bad idea.

On the other hand, I see Duplicant as an excellent way of having control over creatures in Masknaught/Vengeur Masque and Hulk/Gro. But, then again, if you have resolved Survival and have an active Welder in play, you're doing damn well already.

Quote Even in the more 'tool-boxy' builds, like mine, you still have SEVEN easily hardcastalbe threats (2 Trike, 2 Pentavus, 1 Karn, and 2 Juggs) I know that running only 2 Juggernats may seem like suicide vs control, but you still have 5 other threats to make use of.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how anything above 4-cc qualifies as a valid threat in the early game when it counts most, and 5-6 cc creatures are far from being easily hard-castable. I thought the whole philosophy behind the deck was 1st-2nd turn 4cc beef, backed by Welders and Survival. If you cut down on your primary threats (2 Juggernauts?? You're kidding), you're going to have a hell of a time against any deck as you just lost your consistent "clock". This in turn weakens your chances of resolving Survival, because your chances of establishing early pressure are slim.

I think haro's creature base is more ideal and consistent with TnT's strategy.

[wuaffiliate]

solemn is very good in the dozens of games ive played, i run 4 jugg, 3 solemn, 2 su-chi, 1 trisk, 1 colossus(house!) and i love first turn solemn purely for the mana advantage, helps alot with survival. also ive had alot of success with the: solemn in play, solemn in gy, 1-2 welders out trick. its insane advantage.


heres my list, i think im starting to like TnT

4 survival
4 welder
3 worb(testing, works quite well, a house vs control)
3 bloodmoon
1 wheel
1 sylvan(may become an elf replica)
1 jar
4 jugg
2 su-chi
3 solemn
1 trisk
1 phyrexian colossus
1 anger
1 quirion ranger
1 mox monkey
1 squee
7 solomo
1 petal(over crypt because crypt is shit)
1 vault
4 shop
3 foothill
3 taiga
3 forest
1 mountain
5 strips

i think thats the list, i just went though what i have sleeved up, ill check it through later.\n\n

[Rico Suave]

Welders win without Solemn, but Solemn does not win without Welders.  Solemn can easily be compared to a "win more" card.

[ctthespian]

@DicemanX:  TNT weakest matchup is Dragon.  Cards like Duplicant or Elf Replica when run as a tool creature can help in Game 1 before boarding in crypts.  Hell even Root Maze would be a good tech creature vs Dragon.  The idea is to have an answer to Dragon main decked to gove you a chance in game 1, otherwise you just gave your opponent a win reguardless of the number of fat creatures you run.  TNT cannont outrace Dragon.  Duplicant although needing Survival and Welder is a solution that has multiple uses despite it being a win more card.  Elf Replica may be the better choice though and may buy time to get your creatures through for the win.

TNT is not a fast deck.  It can drop 1 big threat per turn on average but most decks can attempt to answer those threats.  I feel that TNT needs to run the big creatures to keep the Aggro part of it the kill, but it needs other tech to open roads of victory, ensure them or make them easier.

-Keith

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote giving a Scepter player free activations allows them to Moat you with Fire/Ice and gain card advantage for additional answers, its not cool

If by Moat, you mean they can tap a permanent during their turn, than yes.


My main question is: besides the fun factor, how is TnT not completely outdone by other decks.

For getting out big fatties fast, both Spoils Mask and Madness are better.

For abusing survival, Ninja Mask is simply better in that it can put out a creature that wins the game in one swing (with comprable acceleration).

For using things like lock parts or pillars to disrupt an opponent, it seems both WMUD and STAX are superior.


What does TnT do that isn't done with more speed, synergy, consistency elsewhere?  This is not a rhetorical question.  I haven't played against TnT since Gencon, but it seems that the metagame has evolved beyond it.  I know its been putting up some good results lately, but I want to know how and why.