Neo-TnT

[Zherbus]

The deck that stuck out to me as the most interesting was the TnT that made second at the last Dulmen. I really like the direction he took it and was curious as to other people's take on how TnT should be built in order to survive the fast metagame we've boxed ourselves into.

TnT - Daniel Huszár, 2nd Dulmen

1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Juggernaut
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

1 Phyrexian Colossus
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sol Ring
3 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Tangle Wire

1 Triskelion
1 Quirion Ranger
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Anger
4 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Wheel of Fortune

Lands:

3 Forest
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
3 Taiga
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
 
SB:

3 Artifact Mutation
1 Elvish Lyrist
1 Flametongue Kavu
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Xantid Swarm

[Grand Inquisitor]

I have little experience playing with TnT, but wouldn't sphere of resistance seem a natural fit in the metagame you're describing (and clearly superior to tanglewire)?  Also, doesn't Solemn Simalicrum seem much better as a 2-3 of in this deck, as it is quite slow, and better used to survival out for recursion?

[Bastian]

Isn't Platinum Angel a bit slow at 7 mana, even with all the mana accelaration around? It will probably won't come out soon enough where it should be necessary: combo matchups and even if it did, combo decks have always some way to bounce permanents back to hand.

[jpmeyer]

Solemn Simulacrum is a beast with Welder though.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote Solemn Simulacrum is a beast with Welder though.

I'm sure it is, but do you need two?

[Dante]

Quote (Grand Inquisitor @ Dec. 01 2003,11:16)

Quote Solemn Simulacrum is a beast with Welder though.

I'm sure it is, but do you need two?

Probably not, but if you have a welder, aren't there a lot better things you could be welding?? Getting a basic land and drawing a card is nice, but that deck can do better than a 2/2.  How about recurring and beating with the 8/8 or trike or anything else?  Especially if you only get to use your welder once or twice before it's killed, I would rather have some better targets than that.

Bill

[ctthespian]

I was going to use Waterbury's last tournament to prove my changes to TNT.  However a bad mana base in my opinion thwarted my chances of making a great showing.  Still I went 4-2 before conceeding to Lord of the Goats so he could win a prize in the Top 16.
My matches that day were the following:
GAT (loss)
Scepter Keeper (win)
Academy (win)
Phid (loss)
Sligh (win)
Void? (win)


Core of TNT (12)
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Anger
2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Goblin Welder

Fatties (9)
4 Juggernaut
2 Triskelion
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Phyrexian Colossus
1 Pentavus

Tech Creatures (5)
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Shield Sphere
1 Wall of Roots/Birds of Paradise
1 Elvish Lyrist
1 Quirion Ranger

Draw (2)
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar

Disruption/Metagame Choices (5)
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Jester's Cap

Mana Base (27)
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Taiga
1 Mountain
3 Forest
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard could include the following cards:
Blood Moon
Defense Grid
Hull Breach
Artifact Mutation
Sentinel
Forcefield
Tormod's Crypt
Chalice of the Void

Metagame choices:
I've never liked Tangle Wires in TNT.  In my opinion TNT is an aggro deck and shouldn't try to use a prison mechanic to slow it's opponent and yourself  in the process.  Pillars I feel make a much better choice that disruption to slow your opponent.  I've dropped a first turn survival just to fish a counter so a pillar can resolve vs contol.  Jester's Caps are useful aganst many decks as even Keeper is vulnerable to it's win conditions being removed.  They are an uneasy choice though they have won me many games.

Solemn Simulacrum is an interesting choice.  It's much better than Su-Chi ever could be and is good with welder.

Platnium Angel has never impressed me after testing.  I feel you need to survival it into play and then you need to save Welders to protect it.  Even in matches vs Long where I thought them to be the most helpful and wished balance or bounce card still won Long the game.  

Pentavus is another card I have been testing.  It's more mana intensive that the Tetravus that I always ran to deal with flyers and Morphling.  However, it's ability to generate unlimited flying blockers or tokens that can also be food for welders is great.

TNT as a whole is still a viable deck.  I think with a newer approach it can still come a long way to compete.  It should still be a house vs. control especially with Pillars in the main or sideboard.  It's weakest matchup is Dragon which is rather popular especially in my area of New England in the US.

-Keith

[David Hernandez]

Platinum Angel is not slow when you're using 4 Welders and Survival.  Angel can be on the table on the second turn.  This is why i'm working on incorporating it into my wMud and Stax builds. Also, since this deck includes CotV and can generate large amounts of mana, the higher casting cost creatures make sense.

As for Sphere > Tanglewire, i don't think that's necessarily true.  When you're swinging with big creatures, it's often better to tap the opponent's blockers than it is to slow the game.  

Solemn Simulacrum is a great addition as a card drawing and deck-thinning tool.  It's an excellent choice as an item to swap out using Welders because you get to play an extra land, bring utility from the graveyard, and draw a card.  Really strong, and it allows the TnT player to drop blue from the build.

dave.

[ctthespian]

Quote (David Hernandez @ Dec. 01 2003,10:27)Platinum Angel is not slow when you're using 4 Welders and Survival.  Angel can be on the table on the second turn.

That sounds great in theory.  However I don't see TNT having enough steam to do so and still protect it from removal.  It's similar to the old saying of throwing a dark rit and a land drop to cast a Juzam only to have it plowed next turn.  You can leave it sitting in your yard, but then you need a welder sitting there to get it into play.  Either way I think you're wasting precious time and resources for a card that I have not seen as worthy in TNT.  It would be nice to combo with Final Fortune and scepter, but that dilutes the deck too much and also doesn't seem to fit in TNT.

Sphere's and Tangle Wires I still don't see as good choices.  TNT should be the dominant Aggro deck now that Lion's Eye get's the ax from Madness.  The only other deck that really uses creatures to effect is GAT, other random aggro should not be a problem for TNT.  Also the tapping creatures argument is somewhat weak as Juggernauts can be welded to save them after damage and Phyrexian Colossus is almost unblockable.

I do agreee that Solem's are a choice worth testing.  They are superior to Su-Chi any day.  And, if it gets people to stop running blue in TNT that's great.  I haven't seen need for blue in the deck for some time and then it was Wonder that made it worthy.

-Keith\n\n

[Dante]

What is it with Solemn Simulacrum?? It's a 2/2, when it dies, you draw one card.  Without welder it's an overcosted 2/2 that gives you a land, tapped.  Even if you're welding it, you're drawing one extra card, every other turn.  It's a terrible clock against any control deck.  If you're weldering that, you could be weldering something to kill the opponent like a colossus or trike.

Bill

[Fishhead]

Quote However I don't see TNT having enough steam to do so and still protect it from removal.  

Generally I dont want to protect it from removal.  I want it as a stopgap to keep me alive against fast decks without removal like Mask or certain Combos.  

I started playing it on a night I thought I had to leave early - I figured "OK, I will play something fun like Angel since I have to leave anyway" - and it proved surprisingly strong, especially in later testing.  In some matchups it is junk so be willing to side it out, but dont be willing to dismiss it.

Tangent: Later on I experimented with a version with 3xLighting Greaves, which are also not bad.  They threaten to autowin against a lot of Aggro decks when you combo up the Angel; but I don't think this is the strongest aspect of the Angel since you already are winning those matchups.

[ctthespian]

I'd rather have a colossus or a trike in play than an angel any day.  Angel would be good against combo to help you not dying if they went off.  

I ran one in TNT for a while.  One day when I was playtesting with LOA vs Long he missed that I had one in the yard.  After he did is 20 dmg I welded in response.  He goes "Damn I missed that!...  Hmm... VT pop a chromatic sphere and Chain of Vapor it."  Needless to say I was unimpressed.

Lightning greaves is an interesing choice, but the real use for them would be on welders to avoid fire/ice and STP in my opinion.  But they may not be worth devoting slots to in the deck.\n\n

[Toast]

I am not sure how good those changes really are. Control players know that the two main cards to worry about when playing against TnT are survival and welder. While the 2/2 does have some interesting abilities...I think it worsens the deck by causing a slower kill which TnT simply can not afford. Realistically you will not be able to use this as a draw engine unless you are winning anyways. Platinum angel is horrible in testing. It is overcosted bait for StP at best. I have given TnT a rest for now because TnT has severe problems with it's mana base in a world where 5 strips is the norm, I feel that TnT really needs a third color to be good but right now even two color versions are getting mana screwed.

[SummenSaugen]

That's why you play Quirion Ranger, which is an absolutely amazing card.

If it can make Ninja's manabase function like a dream, it can make TnT a well oiled machine again.\n\n

[Lord of the Goats]

the key thing about platinum angel imo is that once you get a welder active, dragon can't kill you via milling. you don't even need survival since they put it in your grave for you. now, they can just use a second animate spell to steal all the creatures from your deck, or ancestral you out, but it's a solid trick that they're not going to be prepared for game 1 so you can steal a win.

[jpmeyer]

Just so you know, the second Animate trick doesn't actually work since Dragon returns the permanents to their owners.

[Lord of the Goats]

Quote (jpmeyer @ Dec. 01 2003,21:27)Just so you know, the second Animate trick doesn't actually work since Dragon returns the permanents to their owners.

and that's why i don't play dragon....  

thanks for the correction

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

I've been tinkering around with TnT ever since mirrodin, but never had a complete list, mainly because I was busy with wMUD, Stacker, and IsoKeeper. I think that with the demise of long, TnT does have a somewhat better chance (though dragon is a tough matchup). Although I don't have a finalized list together, I think it would look something like ctthespian's list. I've ALWAYS liked Cap in TnT (either main or SB), and pillar is an absolute house. My only concern with the new TnT decks is that they don't have as much fat as the older ones. granted they should still run over aggro, I'm a lot less confident (against fast aggro) when I don't have 4 su-chis or 4 wires anymore. But again, fast aggro is nearly dead. Currently, my list looks like:

3 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
7 SoLoMoxen
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
-28 Mana Sources

4 Welders
2 Squee
1 Anger
1 Genesis
4 Juggernaut
2 Triskelion
1 Karn
1 Phyrexian Collosus
1 Masticore
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Elf Replica (What a frickin' house)
-20 critters

1 Memory Jar
2 Sylvan Library
4 Survival of the fittest
-7 Sources of card advantage

3 Pyrostatic pillar
2 Jester's Cap
-5 Disruption tools

-60 MD cards

some explanantions:

1) Masticore still MD - Here in Denver, aggro is still prevalent, and NOTHING, short of the almighty trike, wrecks aggro like a hungry masty.

2) Sylvan library - is still wonderful...I don't even have to explain how good it works with survival.

3) Elf Replica - Not anything new, but I find it MUCH better than the lyrist. Unless you have anger in the yard, it isn't much faster than the replica. If your in the mid-late game, this guy can be activated upon summoning or being welded in. Which brings me to my second point...multiple disenchants is good...I see enchantress here, so it is a plus. Also, it's a 2/2 to boot (casting it off a workshop is common).

4) 5 strips - so far, it's been ok, but sometimes I feel like there is a lack of green mana...maybe it's just me.

5) genesis - I've been finding this guy quite useful lately. with the rise of control, this guy is a bomb vs. control. Forcing them to deal with welders is some good I hear. Anyways, this is still in testing.


Just out of curiosity, has anyone tried Brawn as the new "evasion" incarnation? I know it's not nearly as good as wonder, but hey, it gets around those annoying regenerating creatures (in R/G beatz mainly).

Finally, I've tested this deck a bit (not nearly enough to make claims) and like it alot. It does decently vs. control, but is still lacking vs. combo (nothing new). I'll jump on the pro-angel bandwagon, simply because it has the potential to steal a game. I don't think dragon has an answer to the angel, so it may take a game by surprise (ofcourse this is all speculation). I'll test it and see how I like it.

Just like to say that I'm ECSTATIC to see a post about my favorite deck. Maybe with some tweaking, TnT will move to an upper-tier deck again!

[Fishhead]

Quote I think that with the demise of long, TnT does have a somewhat better chance (though dragon is a tough matchup).

Tangent: What would you prefer to use against Dragon?  

I been liking TnT since Mirrodin because it can play multiple Crypts against Dragon, Chalice against Long & Aggro and Artifact Mutation against wMUD.  You can maindeck Wires or Pillars, depending on what you expect to face.  

I thought that TnT had just fallen out of fashion for the moment; not that it had dropped out of contention for being top tier.  

Quote Lightning greaves is an interesing choice, but the real use for them would be on welders to avoid fire/ice and STP in my opinion.  But they may not be worth devoting slots to in the deck.

They were borderline; they were useful in about 100 ways but they really are competing with cards like Wire and Pillar for maindeck spots, so they have to be that strong to make the cut.  Here are observations though:

1) Surprisingly good on SuChi.  The trick is getting it attached, but suddenly the spectre of getting R&Red for 4 damage in the middle of combat disappears.  Go ahead, smash him during my main phase, I can always use the mana.
2) As noted, not bad on Welder, though Welder+Greaves isnt exactly the game plan for the first few turns.  Its nice to protect him in the mid-late game against people who are going to be Wishing for F/I (as you note).  
3) Very, very funny on Squee.  

Quote Platinum angel is horrible in testing.

Really?  Its very useless against certain decks, but - like I mentioned - it is an autowin against certain decks that are normally can pose problems for TnT.  I would side it out against Keeper and against 'Tog (unless I suspected them of skimping on removal) etc; but I am curious what you found it "horrible" against.

[Jacob Orlove]

Quote (Fishhead @ Dec. 02 2003,03:32)

Quote I think that with the demise of long, TnT does have a somewhat better chance (though dragon is a tough matchup).

Tangent: What would you prefer to use against Dragon?  

Crypt is solid, but you can also run the Root Maze tech--although that still fails to stop Verdants.

[Toad]

Why do all the list shown above use maindeck Pyrostatic Pillar or Jester's Cap in order to fight Combo and Control when Blood Moon simply wins the game the turn it hits ? With Keeper and Dragon being the most serious contenders post 1.1, maindecking Blood Moon is absolutely awesome. Fitting at least 3 or even 4 in RG TNT's maindeck is not really hard.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

While bloodmoon is a house against control and combo, it blows ass against anything else. I play in an environment with aggro as well, and pillar is just as good vs. control and combo as bloodmoon. With decks packing 4 isochron scepter, bloodmoon becomes weaker.

Against dragon, game 1 is VERY rough, but luckily, post board, crypts work wonders. with 5 strips and 3 crypts, you force dragon to play the late game, where you either:

1) outrace them with creatures

or

2) get survival online and ignore dragon because of elf replica (well, maybe not ignore, but he's still awesome)

still, TnT is 60/40 AT BEST vs. dragon. And thats not to say Dragon won't have SB cards up it's sleeve.

vs. control, I'm SERIOUSLY thinking of SB a single goblin sharpshooter. With decks running around killing people with 1/1 tokens, a single sharpeshooter is amazing.

[BreathWeapon]

Its interesting to see the choice of Tangle Wire and Chalice of the Void in a TnT deck before the death of Long. Arguably, 4 Sphere and 4 Chalice with a full set of Strip/Waste over the Blue Splash was the right call, IMO, but now with Long dead "Neo-TnT" seems to have the right card choices concerning the future metagame.

What a strange coincidence, no? It will be fun to see the flood of "new" TnT deck lists.

[MuzzonoAmi]

I can definately see TnT having a Rennaisance come January. The fact that it has flexible hate options that are quite strong against the general field (Blood Moon, Pyrostatic Pillar, Root Maze, Tangle Wire) and absolutely nuts in other matchups (like Pillar is in the Keeper matchup) make it a solid deck to start with. And Mirrodin has given it TONS of new toys. And best of all, it can be budgetized. Really, it can. I'll post a list later, if the SCG article isn't up by then. The list there is a bit outdated, but the fact that it exists is a good thing. I'd like to test the Angel as an answer to Dragon, as it seems like it could work (and it makes Verdant Force worthless). Solemn Simulcarum isn't too bad. He's borderline for me though, so more people definately need to test him. Elf Replica is definately superior to Elvish Lyrist, though. Goblin Replica might be worth testing as well. Brawn sounds like it might warrant a try in Wonder's place. This would be great for a budget deck that really doesn't want to have to drop the cash on 8 Duals. TnT is back.

[hulk3rules]

Quote (Clown of Tresserhorn @ Dec. 02 2003,13:20)While bloodmoon is a house against control and combo, it blows ass against anything else. I play in an environment with aggro as well, and pillar is just as good vs. control and combo as bloodmoon. With decks packing 4 isochron scepter, bloodmoon becomes weaker.

You seem to be arguing that pillar is there because your meta has a lot of aggro, but TnT should be killing all other forms of aggro anyways, such that it can stand to have 3-4 dead bloodmoons in the deck game 1.  Right?

[Jacob Orlove]

Quote (MuzzonoAmi @ Dec. 03 2003,09:48)And best of all, it can be budgetized. Really, it can.

Now that we have the R/G talisman AND artifact lands, I'm inclined to agree.

I'll definitely have to test the Simulacrum and the Elf Replica. The Goblin one costs 3R to activate, though, which is probably too much. Gorilla Shaman or Uktabi Orangutan seem like better creature artifact hosers.

Brawn does let you dodge Decree tokens, but not Dreadnoughts or Togs. I think Triskelion makes more sense in the main.

[MuzzonoAmi]

Quote Now that we have the R/G talisman AND artifact lands, I'm inclined to agree.

I tested the Talisman and you don't need it. Especially with Solemn to fetch basics. Eladamari's Vineyard and Ancient Tomb make up for the Workshops. It works far better than I imagined. I'll test the artifact lands, but I don't think that cutting basics will be wise, especially with MD BloodMoons.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Brian: Yes, TnT can run over other forms of aggro, but I feel MUCH better with 3 pillars than with 3 bloodmoons. Both are great vs. Control, while one sucks vs. anything with basics. Also, with Su-Chi's cut, it looses some of it's fat...that with the fact that tangle wire is out makes me worry a bit. I still have a winning record vs. aggro, but not OVER WHELMING so like the old TnT.

After testing, I think Elf replica is DEFINITELY better than lyrist(Glad to hear some of you think the same!), and I think brawn will take over the place of genesis in my build. While genesis is awesome, I simply do not see enough control to warrant it's inclusion. Brawn has won my several games...though I'm not sure if it's because I was already ahead.

In anycase, I really think TnT is an upper tier deck. My only concern is that with the rise of Dragon hate, TnT decks will suffer abit as well.

[BreathWeapon]

@MuzzunoAmi, have you considered ESG in budget TnT? FYI, the vineyards will suck vs Scepter.dec.

We also have to stop and consider how much of the old TnT wisdom holds true in today's metagame. For instance, how much FAT should we run?

I'm fond of,

4xJuggernaut
4xSu-Chi
1xMasticore
1xKarn, Silver Golem
2xTriskelion

Using 1 Karn over Gorilla Shaman is a much better idea. TnT needs an answer for Chalice=1, and Sex Monkey is just too slow at 2G(G). Karn/Trisk is enough Artifact Removal for my tastes. The deck could also stand to include 1xFinisher in the form of Colosus, Bosh or Platinum Angel.

Brawn, Simalucrum and Elf Replica seem like very solid Tools for the deck. I also think we need to consider the usefulness of 1 MD Xantid Swarms

Concerning the Manabase, is Fetch/Taiga superior to Brass City and Glimmervoid? I know its a radical suggestion, but Glimmervoid has proven to be highly resilient in my play testing and having 8 Universal Mana Producers would allow us to run Tinker/Walk/Ancestral/D.Tutor and still have sufficient space for Strip/Wastes. A single Gilded Lotus is a strong consideration inconjunction with Tinker as well for the purposes of SB Bloodmoon. With 10-12 Fat, Tangle Wire and Chalices is Tolarian Academy worth including?

Should we include a single Mindslaver, given the possible presence of Tinker as an additional Win Condition over the 1 HUGE FAT slot?

Man i'm so glad Long is dead, it makes Workshop decks thousands of times more flexible than ever before. Mwhaha \n\n

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Well, I'll start by posting my most current list:

Tools 'N Tubbies 12/03
Bob Yu

4 Workshops
4 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
7 SoLoMoxen
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
-28 Mana Sources

4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Memory Jar
2 Sylvan Library
-7 Sources of Card Advantage

4 Goblin Welder
2 Squee
1 Anger
1 Brawn
1 Elf Replica
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Gorilla Shaman
-11 Tools

4 Juggernaut
2 Triskelion
1 Karn
1 Phyrexian Collosus
1 Masticore
-9 Tubbies

3 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Jester's Cap/Chalice of the Void (testing)
-5 Disruption tools
-60 Maindeck Cards

3 Blood Moon
3 REB
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Rack and Ruin
2 Powder keg
-15 SB cards

I've found my MD to be SURPRISINGLY consistent. I will be the first to admit, however, that it is lacking fat. I really miss su-chi, but such is life. I cut 1 wasteland for 1 forest and have never looked back. Seriously, this is an aggro deck at heart, and it NEEDS green mana for survival. Drawing 2 wastelands opening hand isn't that spectacular (atleast around here).

How come nobody is using sylvan library? Seriously guys, it is awesome. Infinite brainstorms? I found it to be good in EVERY single matchup. it digs deeper for you to find your answers.

My SB is janky as hell right now, mainly cause I've been a bit busy. I cut naturalize all together because, well, using multiple Elf Replicas is just as good...plus it's alreadt Maindecked.  Powder keg is in the SB mainly as an experiment. It fights aggro, AND kills stupid soldier or angel tokens.

I've tested these cards abit and here's what I think:

1) Angel - I thought it was good, but in testing, it was a wasted slot. it's only good when you have an active welder, in which case you should be winning anyways. It is awesome vs. Sui black (since they run NO removal for it, outside of powder keg, which is soooooooo irrelevant), but what kind of TnT player looses to black? as stated, most decks have an answer for her.

2) Solemn Simalcrum - I personally don't like it, but thats because I run only 4 basic lands. TnT's draw engine is survival, NOT this guy. again, if you're relying on this guy to draw cards (welder in play), you may as well be using survival...I tested this guy in place of sylvan library and wasn't impressed.

3) Xantid Swarm - Wow, kudos to BreathWeapon for this one. I haven't tested it yet, but it seems like it would be HOUSE vs. control.