Ok. So Long is dead. I konw that I am going t...

[Smmenen]

Ok.  So Long is dead.  I konw that I am going to continue working on two developmental decks - but what changes?

Chalice of the Void - this is still an awesome card, but obviously gets weaker.  it still functions to destroy cheap aggro decks, but is no longer the potent combo destruction it once was.  I expect to continue to see this card in Workshop decks being set at 2 to wreck control.

Blood Moon - Best Card EVAR.  Every deck needs ways around Blood Moon.  Since Dragon is now obviously the best combo deck come Jan 1st - this card has serious wrecking potential.  Blood Moon seriously gave Richard problems at KC with Dragon - and if blood moon can come down before Dragon gets a turn, well its much more difficult to get Dragon in the 'yard.  

Workshop Prison - no real change in position except it gets weaker by virtue of having trouble against Both Keeper and Dragon - which are both really solid.  

Fish - This deck really gained alot.  It loses both the Long and the Madness matchup and now gets to face more Keeper and Dragon.  Woot.

Thoughts?

Steve

[bebe]

I think that we may also see more Rector based decks and possibly Druid decks. Rector/Trix was quite powerful and can still be a force. I won't say more about Druid decks as we Canadians are working on an ideal deck list.

As for hate - Chalice and Blood Moon will certainly be played but I expect to see a lot of Crypts in the sideboards of decks - possibly Purges as well as they are Wishable.

Fish has alweays had a soft spot in my heart and is a very strong deck but don't keep writing off aggro, Steve. There are a number of Survival based aggro builds that can compete and some simple R/G and W/G decks that are also strong if properly meta gamed.

Workshop had to contend with Dragon and Keeper anyway. It has survived and will continue to be a good deck with some tweaking for the meta. I think Dragon poses a greater problem than Keeper for this deck.

[Smmenen]

Oh I definately do not write off Aggro - I think SpoilsMask is very strong.  My only concern about aggro concerns budget aggro's viability becuase of Chalice.  Stacker has enough disruption to be a metagame contender.  

Excellent point on SBs - Everyone should have Crypts or Purges I think.  Just as Rack and Ruin will probably continue to populate SBs.  So Workshop Prison is Out is what we are saying.  I agree with this, I think.  Does Blood Moon TnT have a chance?

Steve

[Dante]

With regards to Dragon, with the abundance of 5 strip decks (Fish, Keeper, most Hulks, non-madness aggro, prison), maybe the best dragon for this environment is a mono-black build like Bebe's?  Having thought about it a lot since my 3-3 mulligan-filled performance from Saturday, maybe I'm just overacting to a bad day (since my losses were Long, Super Gro, and Dragon, with 0 wastelands among them).  Maybe I'm just babbling...

Bill

Edit @ steve - I was thinking that earlier when I saw the BR list, Blood Moon is great against Dragon, Gro, Control, man-land decks, etc.  Hell, a control deck with 3-4 scepters could even run it.\n\n

[bebe]

Ah, welcome to the dark side. Mono black can easily work around Blood Moon and if you main deck VERDANTS as I keep advising, you have solid match ups down the line. I never posted my Spoils list ( just alluded to it in dicemanx's primer) because I was hoping Spoils would be restricted. No such luck and now that I am tired of deck I have to find ways to beat it.
Which actually begs the question Steve - do you think Hulk and gro variants are decent meta game choices? Certainly they play like aggro/combo and can pack solutions for Dragon and control.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I think as soon as Dragon started posting consistent strong results, and Chalice Keeper became big, everyone was thinking Urphid in the back of their mind.  We'll see if it proves flexible enough given all of the innovation that is sure to come.

As for chalice owning aggro, I disagree.  When I think of aggro, I think of Madness, TnT, Mask, Gobbo, and Suicide (I know, aggro-control).  Chalice is really only solid against Gobbo and certain Mask builds.  What really hoses aggro, is scepter with a decent imprint.

As far as general metagame response, it should be quite positive, with all of the major strategies and hybrid-strategies having viable choices.

[Thug]

When dragon is probably left as the best combo, it's also very possible that it will be totally hated out, and since rector dies to the same cards (stifle, crypt) is not very likely that it will show up again.

Chalice stays a very good cards, but it will loose it's function as silver bullet against long/tendrils and therefore most likely will onyl see play in decks based around it (MUD?).

Blood Moon already was a uber-powerful cards as Arthur and me tried to show last tournament. It will only become better and something that has too be taken very serious when constructing a deck.

Workshop prison has too be adapted too, Sphere lost most of it's power and Blood Moon seems a better option.

Koen

[Hyperion]

Many are writing off Madness as being dead by virtue of the fact that Lion's Eye Diamond has been restricted. I am reluctant to make any strong claims at this point in time because I purposely avoided heavy testing with 1-LED Madness until the formal announcement of its restriction was made. As long as Bazaar is unrestricted, it should retain some semblance of competitiveness.

It was a central card in the deck - but Madness is much less reliant on it than Long. Its loss of 3 LEDs is partially offset because its worst matchup (Long) is gone too. The Workshop prison matchup will now be more difficult but other than that, I will postulate that, properly designed, the difficulty of its other matchups will either remain the same, orpossibly even improve. I'll have more on that to say after I can provide adequate testing results.\n\n

[erik]

Rector dies to the same hate that Dragon does, but what about TPS? With Long gone, it's probably the fastest combo deck around, and it's untouched by the new b&r list (ironically it uses exactly one copy of burning wish). If Dragon is the new deck to gun for I think TPS can dodge a lot of the combo-hate slots in people's sidebards, and ever since Chalice became legal I've been having better irl results with TPS than Long solely because of FoW. Do any of the Dutch still play it, and if not; why have you abandoned it? What do you think should be changed for the post-Long meta?

[MoreFling]

I think TPS is still very viable, and probably will actually be able to squeeze back in, with people letting their guard down now that Long.dec is gone.

Only time will tell, but I got a few nice decklists ready to try out.
However, first, I still have a december tournament lined up which I should probably play Long now that I still can

[Milton]

I really like the new TnT as a good aggro deck, along with Fish, Mask and Suicide.  Suicide and Fish can easily splash red for Bloodmoon or Fire/Ice or Shaman or whatever.  Sligh seems dead.

Dragon is the combo deck to beat, but control has a pretty good chance with 4 Forces, 4 Wastes, 1 Strip and Stifles.

I like Phid as the control deck to beat.  In regards to aggro-control Landstill and Hulk are phenomonal aggro-control decks that have very good match-ups with Long leaving.  Hulk with maindeck Deeds seeems very good right now.

Prison decks?  Mud is still there and it is still very good, but it has lost a little in the wake of innovation from other decks.  It's not much of a shock anymore either.  People are prepared for Welders.  And, how powerful is a first turn Sphere against control?

Keeper?  Hell, I don't know.  Maybe.  It seems like Scepter isn't enough to push this deck over the edge.  Neither is Decree.  Multi-colored control should be Hulk, it's just faster, has better threats and is more focused.  But, I like the innovation I'm seeing in Keeper lately.  It just doesn't seem to be enough.

Just about everyone is back to 4 wastelands, 1 strip maindeck, which slows down the game nicely.  That leads me to believe that this winter will be more control dominated.

[TracerBullet]

I personally think Fish loses out on all this.  Fish exists as a counter to the Stax/WelderMUD/Long decks that were ever so present before the restrictions.  Fish does NOT do well in a field of Suicide/TnT/Mask, and is moderately ok to bad against Hulk/Keeper/anything with Deed.

All told, I think the Fish players will realize that their metagame deck is now outdated to the current metagame.

[MolotDET]

Damn, it is about time we had a thread that jumped out as high quality.

Moved to Extreme Vintage

Do you have any idea how long it has been since I actually felt something should be moved here?

Thanks for this guys.  Lets try to keep this one nice ok?

I will be watching this and I am going to delete any "go play 1.5," type of comments.

Mo.