Kerz Keeper 12/03 - Revamped Control

[Kerzkid11]

Hey guys. I've been playing keeper on and off for about 6 months and my chain of evolution through testing was relatively different from others'.

Well, I'll start it at when Mirrodin came out. Immediately, like everyone else, I noticed the two artifacts that could possibly go in keeper. After seeing Eastman's thread on evolving Keeper, and chatting with people on IRC, I made the choice to start testing with a Chalice Keeper build.

Here's my starting point:

3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 City of Brass
4 Polluted Delta
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Mind Twist
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Cunning Wish
1 Future Sight
2 Skeletal Scrying
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Decree of Justice
1 Goblin Trenches


I tested it a little and brought it to a tourney at cape cod. I didn't top eight, and chalices didn't help in any match. I sided them out most of the time and was generally disappointed in the card's usefulness.

So after this disaster I decided to give scepter a try. I add in fire/ice to the MD and SB, take out Future Sight (not only is it too slow for the environment, but I felt I already had a bomb just as big in the form of Scepter), and make my win condition into 2 Decree, just because its better in the massive control mirror that is New England.

After some more tuning and testing I went to a tourney in Hadley, and got 2nd place, losing to BillTheDuck (Nick T.) in the finals. He was playing a deck with 4 Scepters and 4 Fire/Ice, which made it tough for me to deal with all his bombs, especially with Hurkyl's on the SB over Rack and Ruin (Skullcap was the tech back then)

Here's my tourney report:
http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....rzkid11 (I had put the FS back in at the time, but more on that later)

So, based on my performances the Scepter version is obviously better (to me, at least).

My deck still isn't what I wanted it to be though. It seems too inconsistent.

My performance at Waterbury was decent, with a 3-2 drop (could have went for top 16, but left) compared to the good competition there.

Well, I was still not satisfied and came to a conclusion:
That I was sick of just Digging/Searching for answers/bombs and I wanted to shift keeper back towards the card advantage game. Most Keeper builds are running Fact or Fiction, Skeletal Scrying, Ancestral Recall, and Possibly Future Sight for real draw cards, along with Brainstorm/Impulse for search/dig.

So 1 FOF, 1 Scrying, and 1 Recall is all keeper has to gain real card advantage (strictly by drawing, not favorable trades such as Abyss, Fire/Ice, or Balance).

I looked further into this, and with the format being at a point where 5 strips is near mandatory in non-combo decks, why is Keeper running 4 casting cost and 3-5 Casting cost cards as its draw engine? I looked at Neo Hulk, and even Older Hulk, and realized that it won the Keeper match so much is because it's draw engine could still function while on a land and a mox, or 2 lands.

Having AK in Keeper could break the mirror wide open because I am able to function while they are scrambling to find mana to cast their draw after a wasteland war.

So I look at the Hulk draw engine, and decided to port part of it over to Keeper, although it has been done/tried before.

Here is the list that I tested with:

AK Keeper

//Land/Mana Sources
4 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet  
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl

//Counter/Control
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

//Draw
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall

//Tutor
2 Cunning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor

//Utility/Other
3 Isochron Scepter
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Mind Twist

//Removal
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fire/Ice

//Win
2 Decree of Justice


//Sideboard
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Disenchant
1 Stifle
1 Vampiric Tutor

This deck was testing good results, doing 55/45 against Mud, very well against Long, maybe 60/40 against dragon, and OK versus Mono B mask among other things.

Also, you'll notice that after I played Chalice Keeper in the Cape I used Chalice as a Sideboard card. I think it's great against the correct matchups (Long, Sligh, Fish even), but doesn't belong in the maindeck, and is super shitty in the mirror. (Again, NE with the heavy control).

I playtest against "Chronic" which was the 4 Scepter 4 Fire/Ice deck that Nick beat me with in the Finals that fateful day, and It is still doing really well. It gained pretty good tempo with Icing early lands and going into a Scepter which acted as a Library with tons of benefits in the control mirror. And we all know how good Library is..(in the control match, at least).

I decided to play the 4th Scepter and add 2 Fire/Ice to the deck, improving its control match and its overall redundancy.
I liked the way it ran and felt on my grip, so I played it in Cape Cod this weekend.

The results were pretty good. I split with Adam "iLL_DaWg" Bowers in the finals and walk away with $100. A poor student couldn't complain. (Reporthere)

I ended up really having to tighten the deck up for those last 3 slots, losing Mind Twist (not a terrible loss), Shaman #2 (harsh, but not too bad), and Brainstorm #4 (hurt a lot).

I also cut Balance, but that was a long time ago. I figure who needs balance with scepter keeping aggro under control easily, without the drawback of discarding the majority of your hand and sacrificing of lands.

Here was the final list I came up with:

Bring the fuckin' ruckus - Kerz Keeper 12/03

//Land/Mana Sources
4 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet  
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl

//Counter/Control
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

//Draw
3 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall

//Tutor
2 Cunning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor

//Utility/Other
4 Isochron Scepter
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk

//Removal
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Fire/Ice

//Win
2 Decree of Justice


//Sideboard
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Rack and Ruin
2 Coffin Purge (Dragon is getting very popular)
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Disenchant
1 Stifle
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Plagebearer (meh, needs more testing)

Notice the Chali have been dropped form the SB. Long is scarce in NE, so I took the risk. It payed off. They won't be coming back.

Well, there it is. Personally I love the deck and it is also a blast to play. It still needs more testing and tweaking, and I am open to suggestions/Criticism.

Kerz\n\n

[jpmeyer]

I like this Keeper, although this may be because it is almost the same as mine.

[Kerzkid11]

Thanks, I knew you were a big fan of AK but it's interesting to see someone else who's testing brought them to these approximate conclusions.

[Tristal]

I'm a little surprised you found Rack and Ruin to be better than Shattering Pulse, especially since you run Scepters.  I don't run Scepters in my version, but I have Rack and Ruin, Hurkyl's Recall and Shattering Pulse in my SB, and they ALL have their applications (I wished for all three at different points in my last tournament).  I suppose it could depend on metagame, but I like the added utility they provide.  I think you run enough removal that Welder tricks should not be an issue regarding Shattering Pulse's buyback.

EDIT: Made syntax clearer.\n\n

[Kerzkid11]

Quote (Tristal @ Dec. 01 2003,19:39)I'm a little surprised you found Rack and Ruin to be better than Shattering Pulse, especially since you run Scepters.  I don't run Scepters in my version, but I have Rack and Ruin, Hurkyl's Recall and Shattering Pulse in my SB, and they ALL have their applications (I wished for all three at different points in my last tournament).  I suppose it could depend on metagame, but I like the added utility they provide.  I think you run enough removal that Welder tricks should not be an issue regarding Shattering Pulse's buyback.

EDIT: Made syntax clearer.

Well, My thoughts are that Rack and Ruin can break you out of a lock and turn a game around for 2R. Pulse isn't that bad but it costs 5 mana with buyback, which is a lot with Wastes, Smokestacks, and Sphere. It is slow, taking multiple turns to start breaking out of the lock, and it also makes Chalice for 2 that much better against my deck (more than it already is).\n\n

[leviat]

Great list. I have always been a big fan of the AK draw engine and I think this is a great list. Couple comments / questions:

Fourth Wasteland but no Stifles to help.
In my testing with OSE recently I found that with four wastelands I seem to draw one just a little too often when I wish I had the Stifle or Monkey instead. Obviously this can be very metagame dependant but I would strongly suggest a second Monkey over the fourth Wasteland since your not playing Stifles.

I find that in today's artifact laden environment, the second Monkey is very key. Thanks to Scepter, Fire/Ice is also a more popular card which makes keeping the Monkey in play somewhat problematic. In short, I think you're going to be a lot happier seeing that second Monkey than you are that fifth Strip effect.

Mystical Tutor is starting to show it's weakness.
I think we can all agree that Type 1 is more aggressive than it's ever been. Now so, more than ever, I have felt the effects of the card disadvantage that Mystical leaves my hand with. While you do have the AK's as a strong draw engine, I would suggest you keep with a fourth Brainstorm over Mystical to help keep your manabase rock solid in the early game.

Wishes should always come in threes...
With such a powerful sideboard I have to imagine that you silently moan everytime you notice the fact your missing a third Cunning Wish. You might feel timid to give up your fourth Scepter, but I believe that the third Cunning Wish would be more useful in the long run. I can just visualize a couple of your starting hands sitting with two dead Scepter and you "wishing" you could pitch one to FoW (especially if you stick with three Brainstorms).

My suggestions are just that, I love the list and I'm glad to see Keeper making it's way back to the top. \n\n

[glenchuy]

maybe it's just my predominantly aggro metagame, but i haven't had much success with AKs.  or maybe i just don't like them outside of tog.

[Kerzkid11]

Quote (leviat @ Dec. 01 2003,21:25)Great list. I have always been a big fan of the AK draw engine and I think this is a great list. Couple comments / questions:

Fourth Wasteland but no Stifles to help.
In my testing with OSE recently I found that with four wastelands I seem to draw one just a little too often when I wish I had the Stifle or Monkey instead. Obviously this can be very metagame dependant but I would strongly suggest a second Monkey over the fourth Wasteland since your not playing Stifles.

I find that in today's artifact laden environment, the second Monkey is very key. Thanks to Scepter, Fire/Ice is also a more popular card which makes keeping the Monkey in play somewhat problematic. In short, I think you're going to be a lot happier seeing that second Monkey than you are that fifth Strip effect.

Mystical Tutor is starting to show it's weakness.
I think we can all agree that Type 1 is more aggressive than it's ever been. No so, more than ever, I have felt the effects of the card disadvantage that Mystical leaves my hand with. While you do now have the AK's as a strong draw engine, I would suggest you keep with a fourth Brainstorm over Mystical to help keep your manabase rock solid in the early game.

Wishes should always come in threes...
With such a powerful sideboard I have to imagine that your silently moan everytime you notice the fact your missing a third Cunning Wish. I can imagine your loath to give up your fourth Scepter, but I have imagine that the third Cunning Wish would be more useful in the long run. I can just imagine a couple of your starting hands sitting with two dead Scepter and you wishing you could pitch one to FoW (especially if you stick with three Brainstorms).

My suggestions are just that, I love the list and I'm glad to see Keeper making it's way back to the top.

1. I couldn't fit stifle in, which kind of disappointed me, but it's not that big of a deal. If I was going to fit some in, it would probably be 2(which seems like the number for any Keeper) , which means that I wouldn't always have them early to "waste" fetchlands. I have found the card a little too situational for keeper as a 2-of, but I like it in Fish as a 4 of. Possibly we could explore a Keeperesque deck with 5 Strips and 4 Stifle sometime.

I agree that the 2nd Mox Monkey is pretty important, but I couldn't squeeze it in. I say pretty importand because like you said, there are tons of Fire/Ice going around and they arn't that great in the non-Scepter Keeper matchup.

Mystical tutor is starting to show a little bit of its weakness, and I am considering cutting it for the 2nd Monkey, or possibly the 4th brainstorm, but we'll see.

I disagree that wishes should come in three's. I played 3 for awhile, and cut back to two and havn't missed it. This isn't anything really new, you'll see most control decks are reverting to 2 now. There wasn't one time that I said in the tourney - "Wow, I wish I had another wish". 2 Is Sufficient vs. Control, and they usually get sided out. Against MUD, they are pretty solid tutors for my Rack and Ruins, but i'd rather just have all 3 of them maindeck over the Wishes game 2 & 3.

Thanks for your suggestions.

[Toad]

Considering you don't run Intuition, and considering the fundamental turn is still really early in the game, I don't really think you can abuse the AK engine in the first few turns. You'll often cast a single AK in the first 3 turns, meaning you'll just have used a simple cantrip for the expensive cost of 1U. It's only the second one that will net you card advantage, and a low one.

My question is : "how is AK better than Impulse here ?". Early game, you want to dig into solutions and silver bullets, especially against Workshop Control decks or Dragon and TPS. So hand quality is better than card advantage, and this is why I find Impulse to be superior here. Imprinting the third or fourth AK on a Scepter is awesome, but if you have time to dump 2 or 3 AKs in the graveyard without Intuition, you should probably be on the path to the victory. A first turn Isochron Scepter imprinting Impulse is really better than a first turn Scepter imprinting AK imho.

Matt

[CyberKnight]

I am glad to see I am not the only one that has cut the shaman count back to 1. I am however a little surprised about the huge amount of creature removal in the MD.
2 StP + 3 Fire/ice is quite a big chunk. Especially with the 4 scepter's this looks like overkill. Wouldn't you want something like:
-2 fire/ice
+2 impulse
to get to your multiple AK's or the right answers quicker?

Also, with 4 scepters, maybe mox emerald would fit in your deck somewhere?

I will be testing with this list as from today:
Limbowned.dec
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
1 Library of Alexandria

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Isochron Scepter

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Future Sight
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
4 Brainstorm
2 Impulse (maybe replace 1 for a scepter)
4 Accumulated Knowledge

1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Decree of Justice
1 Balance

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Gorilla Shaman

1 Fire/Ice
------------------
SB

1 Circle of Protection : Red
1 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Red Elemental Blast  
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Stifle
1 Disenchant
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Fire/Ice
1 Coffin Purge
1 Tormod's Crypt/1 Coffin Purge
1 open slot, probably for stacker/MUD h8, maybe the 2nd monkey\n\n

[Maxx Matt]

If Keeper would began to pack in full sets of AK&Scepters I would like to see which additional defences you would pack in to:

1) Avoiding me to lose the "AK's Mirror" , as anyone seems needing to transform the Control Matchup. Bad Luck on draw isn't the right losing-move in the best "Skill-Based" Matchup ( IMHO of course... )

2)Avoiding me to lose 2 cards if they break my scepter. Artifact hate would be more and more frequent after Restriction because Workshop.dec would come back as the worst enemy of every control player. Unluckily every Hate for artifact perfectly fit the sideboard tecniques agaisnt a scepter based control deck, with the difference that the control player will be touched more by a single resolved removal.

Neglecting this 2 single points the deck is surely more focused for the next shift of the metagame because of the need of CotV maindeck should be overcome by the need of other bombs to break games.

Even if a resolved Scepter is surely powerful due to the large pool and variety of <2 cc spells, I feel that a PURE drawer as Skeletal should be paired to scepter not to be too much dependent on it.

----------
@CyberNight:
I like a lot the idea of the Twister maindeck.
It helps a lot to refuel your spells after gaining a decent board position, not only relying on Y.Will.
Unluckily I see it more useful in a build that after having eaten mox and wasted lands didn't let them come back in play so easily ( example:  a ChaliceKeeper with a CotV for 0 or 1 in play... it rise the number of dead draws of the opponent letting you to best capitalize your advantage... )

-----------

@Ketz: what about trying a deck like yours, but with this minor changes?

-2 Scepters
+2 Skeletal Scrying

-1 Fire/Ice
+1 Brainstorm

these changes  let you to use the raw power of an early scepter but to refill you hand with cards Immediately with the Godly Skeletal.

What do you think?

[Tristal]

>> [Shattering Pulse] also makes Chalice for 2 that much better against my deck.
That's one reason to keep a Rack and Ruin in the SB.  CWish for R&R still gets you out of that.

I'm curious to know if you really need 4 REBs in the sideboard.  Seems to me Isochron Keeper is really more tuned for the control matchup anyway, do you find you have trouble in the mirror (or against non-scepter Keeper, or blue Aggro-Control?)

How's Vamp Tutor working for you in the SB?  I haven't physically tested it, but I've never had a situation come up where I wished I'd put one in the SB.  (I don't play it maindeck, either.)

[BreathWeapon]

I like the build, its very similar to my own Scepter deck. My key concern is whether or not this style of deck should walk away from its Keeper roots and more towards U/R and U/R/W Scepter decks, Scepter replacing Phids.

At any rate, the Emerald Mox should be a given the inclusion into your deck over LoA. The Library and Scepter don't get along too well from my experience.

[Kerzkid11]

Quote Considering you don't run Intuition, and considering the fundamental turn is still really early in the game, I don't really think you can abuse the AK engine in the first few turns. You'll often cast a single AK in the first 3 turns, meaning you'll just have used a simple cantrip for the expensive cost of 1U. It's only the second one that will net you card advantage, and a low one.

My question is : "how is AK better than Impulse here ?". Early game, you want to dig into solutions and silver bullets, especially against Workshop Control decks or Dragon and TPS. So hand quality is better than card advantage, and this is why I find Impulse to be superior here. Imprinting the third or fourth AK on a Scepter is awesome, but if you have time to dump 2 or 3 AKs in the graveyard without Intuition, you should probably be on the path to the victory. A first turn Isochron Scepter imprinting Impulse is really better than a first turn Scepter imprinting AK imho.

Matt

The only decks where the "fundamental turn" is turn 2 is Dragon, "TPS" (doesn't see any play here), and MUD, I guess.
My deck has enough answers to slow them so that I can get Scepter going, or turn control of the game in my favor. A turn 1 Brainstorm into a turn 2 Ice, FoW, Drain, or even StP (when it comes to dragon) isn't an uncommon play, with everything my deck has. If opponent uses turn 2 as more of a set up turn, than you can fell free to cast AK for 1, and let the card advantage snowball from there. If you go in for the long haul against Dragon with Squee+Bazzar, Impulse won't be as good as AK in the longrun. It will be better on turn 2 or 3 against combo, but that is about it.

Quote -2 Scepters
+2 Skeletal Scrying

-1 Fire/Ice
+1 Brainstorm

these changes  let you to use the raw power of an early scepter but to refill you hand with cards Immediately with the Godly Skeletal.

My deck is tailored to be build more around scepter. Also, in the article I explained why I cut the more mana intensive draw spells.

[der_Meister]

Don't you find yourself sitting with multiple scepters alot? I never felt the need for more than one scepter in play, as it becomes very mana intensive.
By dropping a scepter(or 2) you could add the 4th brainstorm or try to make some more room for 2 stifles. I must say i thought stifle would be a bit situational when i first started using it. Since then i have started to love the card. Have you tried it in any iteration of this build ?

Or do i misunderstand the gameplan? Are you aiming at 1:st turn scepter, if so, i think emerald is a natural fit.

[leviat]

Quote How's Vamp Tutor working for you in the SB?  I haven't physically tested it, but I've never had a situation come up where I wished I'd put one in the SB.  (I don't play it maindeck, either.)

I've done testing with it in the past and I have seen Carl using it (against me) in our weekly Type-1. In presideboarded matches I find this card to be quite useless as most answers are simply wished from the sideboard. Where this card shines is in post sideboarding. It allows me to bring in my most potent answers while leaving the Wishes in to get unexpected answers or to go for Vampiric Tutor when I need to get an answer that I had sided in.

I think this really comes down to personal preference and if you find that you managed to make a solid sideboard with 14 cards, the Vampiric Tutor will be a great compliment.\n\n

[jpmeyer]

One of the reasons that I like AK over Impulse in these kinds of Keepers is because the presence of Scepter puts other AK decks (read: Tog) in a bind.  Having to fight a 2cc Tome is bad enough without it also shutting down a big chunk of your card drawing at the same time.

I also prefer Emerald over a random land espescially if you are playing 27 mana in your deck (although I think 27 mana is extremely incorrect in a deck with Brainstorm, AK, and 3 Fire/Ice.)

[Kerzkid11]

Quote I also prefer Emerald over a random land espescially if you are playing 27 mana in your deck (although I think 27 mana is extremely incorrect in a deck with Brainstorm, AK, and 3 Fire/Ice.)

What do you suggest be this "random land"? Cut down to 2 tundra?  

[jpmeyer]

Either 2 Sea or 3 Wasteland.  I figure that unless you're going SUPER FULL ON TURBO land destruction mode, you really need to go down to 3 Wasteland to keep your color balance working well.

[SummenSaugen]

I agree with JP.

Likewise, in response to people that think the fundamental turn is two:

When you run Stifles, Swords, or Blue Blasts, dragon slows WAY down, because they have to play around it.  The problem is that in these situations, Keeper doesn't "stabilize" because Dragon can oudraw three to one on a regular basis, as well as throw must counters around all the freakin time.  AK allows Keeper to compete with the drawing, and to dig for answers to the Bazaars, the Squees, the Dragons, or whatever else is bugging them.

Good job, Kerz.  I like this build.  Though I do agree cutting a single scepter for Brainstorm #4 is a must do.\n\n

[leviat]

Should this thread be moved to Extreme Vintage? I like the quality of this thread, where the deck is going, and I want it to stay that way.

[SummenSaugen]

Well that would be cool, but then the builder of the deck and starter of the thread couldn't post on it.

[glenchuy]

Quote (SummenSaugen @ Dec. 02 2003,14:59)AK allows Keeper to compete with the drawing, and to dig for answers to the Bazaars, the Squees, the Dragons, or whatever else is bugging them.

but AK still digs too slowly against dragon.  even if you - say delay dragon for 3 or 4 turns.  how big would AK be? let's say you draw 2- that's still not much of an advantage or digging.

unless i'm missing something here.  i've tested AKs a lot and the only matchup it's good with- is against control-  i also don't like my odds against welder and friends, and would rather have impulse.  (although i'd rather have f/i in those situation)

my build uses 3 scepters and only 1 scrying. 2 f/i, 1 stp.

[Kerzkid11]

Quote Should this thread be moved to Extreme Vintage? I like the quality of this thread, where the deck is going, and I want it to stay that way

This is true.

Quote Well that would be cool, but then the builder of the deck and starter of the thread couldn't post on it.

Also true.

There is a way to fix that problem.

Quote i've tested AKs a lot and the only matchup it's good with- is against control-  i also don't like my odds against welder and friends, and would rather have impulse.  (although i'd rather have f/i in those situation

Against MUD AK is better than the conventional draw because of the Smokestacks and Wastes. Better than Impulse? Maybe, but with my deck having 3 F/I and 2 StP, I'd probably like AK better, because I'll probably have a good chance of having/drawing into a spell I need anyway.\n\n

[BillTheDuck]

I'm pretty sure the thread can't even be moved there anymore because Kerz started it.

Maybe I could start a thread on the chronic (basically the deck kerz built off, the only significant difference is the chronic doesn't use AK) and this deck. In that thread people could discuss the pros/cons of using AKs. Then if discussion in that thread becomes EV worthy, it can get moved.

My personal opinions on the matter are undecided. The deck has a whole lot of draw power as it is, and I think the 2nd shaman and 4th storm are very important. I also believe people underestimate the power of future sight, dismissing it because of "lack of room". In a deck with this much mana (accelerated and otherwise) it's casting cost shouldn't be too much of a problem. All you have to do is make it resolve. Its one of the few viable "bombs" left. With all the card draw around, its not all that difficult to recover from an ancestral (or the like), but future sight will seal the game. Its pitchable Will number 2 and 3.

For reference, here is the current "chronic" build that I have put together. Its not too different from when Aaron saw it and decided to try AKs.

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

3 Fire/Ice
2 Swords to Plowshares

4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
2 Future Sight
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

4 Isochron Scepters

2 Gorilla Shaman

2 Decree of Justice

3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
5 Blue Fetches
1 City of Brass
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
6 Solomox (-emerald)

Sideboard:
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Coffin Purge
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Stifle
1 Gush
2 Disenchant
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Red Elemental Blast

The differences are:
I run 1 more brainstorm, 1 more shaman, 2 more future sights, and 4 Less AKs. Other than that its slight mana base things and SB.

PS - He only runs 26 mana sources (according to my multiple counts).\n\n

[Kerzkid11]

@ SummenSaugen: Cutting a 4th scepter isn't an option for me. That is the pourpose of this deck, to get a scepter with activiation as early as possible and get card advantage from them. Having multiple scepters on the board at one time isn't a bad thing at all, it just means more advantage. In the combo match more than one may be overkill, though.

[Zherbus]

When JP posted his build (back in September, which couldn't be but a few cards off from KerzKid's list), the reason I initially stayed away from Scepter/AK was because Chalice was too good against it. Before anyone mentions it - getting a Chalice for 2 versus getting a Scepter with AK in the control mirror is comparable unless you care to risk getting 2-for-1'd (or 3-for-1'd from a Rack and Ruin) from removal. Ultimately, it's a risk versus benefit call.

I'd rather have a little more control over my matches than avoiding Chalice (Mud, Stax, Keeper, Mono-black) all day, avoiding timely removal, and/or playing decks that are notoriously light on removal (Dragon, Madness, Tendrils). KerzKid, by avoiding these contingents, obviously made the correct metagame call.

I think if I were to build a Scepter.dec, I would rather run AK's than Future Sights, but then again without Long.dec, the metagame is slowed significantly to make Future Sight better once more.

One thing I noticed both Nick and Aaron are lacking is Abeyance (taking a play from the Parfait playbook). When I ran Scepter, that was the first card after Fire/Ice that I planned on abusing. With the sheer amount if Scepters you're running, you could simply have games where you Wish for Abeyance EOT, Scepter it the next, and essentially win from there.

[Kerzkid11]

Quote I think if I were to build a Scepter.dec, I would rather run AK's than Future Sights, but then again without Long.dec, the metagame is slowed significantly to make Future Sight better once more.

This is true, but I still think Future Sight is a little too Mana Intensive, along with Being a huge REB target. In the control mirror, you won't get FS kind of mana for awhile with tons of wasteland/stifle action around.and by the time you cast it you'll probably already be winning. It also is a huge mana drain target, and REB-able. Don't get  me wrong, its still a  good card, but maybe not appropriate for Keeper, at this time. I would probably play 1 in a U/R Build, but thats beside the point.

Quote One thing I noticed both Nick and Aaron are lacking is Abeyance (taking a play from the Parfait playbook). When I ran Scepter, that was the first card after Fire/Ice that I planned on abusing. With the sheer amount if Scepters you're running, you could simply have games where you Wish for Abeyance EOT, Scepter it the next, and essentially win from , you could simply have games where you Wish for Abeyance EOT, Scepter it the next, and essentially win from there.

If I wanted to play a  play a deck wtih scepter and abeyance, I would play something similar to "Meddling Sceper"  (thread a few topics down), or a tempo deck with 4 Fire/Ice, 4 Meddling Mage, 4 Abeyance, and maybe some Orim's Chants. How good would putting one in the SB of my Keeper be, though? I might try it.

[CyberKnight]

Quote This is true, but I still think Future Sight is a little too Mana Intensive, along with Being a huge REB target. In the control mirror, you won't get FS kind of mana for awhile with tons of wasteland/stifle action around.and by the time you cast it you'll probably already be winning. It also is a huge mana drain target, and REB-able. Don't get  me wrong, its still a  good card, but maybe not appropriate for Keeper, at this time. I would probably play 1 in a U/R Build, but thats beside the point.

In my experience in control mirrors, a good setup to cast your future sight (using a tutor to do this as fast as turn 2-3) can be as decisive as resolving a late game will. I won't argue that FS is always good, but it definately has its moments, that it warrants its inclusion in the MD.

Kerzkid: What do you think of including a timetwister instead of a win-condition? The timetwister can be great when you have recked the opponents board, but are low on cards yourself. I can see that it would wreck your AK count in the yard, so maybe you never run out of cards. However the timetwister prevents you from decking yourself after massive carddrawing.

[Grendal]

Kerz:   I thought I would reply to your post, being as though the other night I decided to go ahead and build your deck for our weekly play session.   I usually dedicate my play nights to extensive playtesting vs. one deck only, and this night was no exception.   I played approximately 15 or so matches vs. the new Welder MUDD w. Chalices.   I played all 15 games Pre-Sideboarded (yes I know, this is a big no no in testing) but just the same I wanted to get the feel for how it handles some of the more popular decks with the initial build.

My findings were as follows:

Keeper defiantly seemed to have the edge in the game, although not by a landslide.   I know its not a good practice to post win to loss ratios, but in this case, being as though I did actually play them, our ratios where about 60/40 in favor of Keeper.

I defiantly think you need to revisit upping the Gorilla count to 2 main deck.  

I personally did not have a problem with only 3 brainstorms, the deck seemed to work fine, although 4 brainstorms is just a proven theory that works, and perhaps that to should be taken into consideration.

In all the games I played vs. the MUDD deck, I didn’t find Accumulate Knowledge all that useful.   That being said I haven’t played it against the Hulk matchup, which I think should be any Keeper player’s biggest fear, and I’m willing to bet that AK will just shine in that match, so I think its inclusion is probably a good thing.

More often than not in my matches vs. MUDD I found myself often not having time to get a Scepter into play, although when I did it was usually a Mana Drain, or in a few games where I was able to slip a Cunning Wish though, I usually grabbed the Disenchant to imprint.

With a deck running 4 Scepters, I would highly recommend finding a slot for Hurkyll’s Recall in your sideboard.   That card alone if imprinted on a scepter is essentially insta-game win vs. MUDD or many of the Artifact decks floating around out there.   I really missed not having that in my sideboard to fall back on.

I would recommend the following for your sideboard setup:

4 Red Blast
2 Rack and Ruin  (Replacing the 3rd with a Hurkyll’s)
2 Coffin Purge
1 Hurkyll’s Recall
1 Disenchant
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Stifle
1 Abeyance (Or Chant, depending on your metagame)
1 Blue Elemental Blast

The reason I suggest the blue blast, is that I highly anticipate seeing URphid come back strong in this new Metagame.   I also think that in terms of Mana Base the old Keeper trick of maindecking one lone island, merely for the purposes of using a fetchland, and then being able to Wish, might also be something you might want to consider.

Quote What do you think of including a timetwister instead of a win-condition? The timetwister can be great when you have recked the opponents board, but are low on cards yourself. I can see that it would wreck your AK count in the yard, so maybe you never run out of cards. However the timetwister prevents you from decking yourself after massive carddrawing.

I think Timetwister, although a very good card, is not quite usefull enough to warrant its inclusion in this deck.   I think if you can go through your entire deck, and run the risk of outdrawing yourself, and still not be able to win, well then you did something wrong.   Trust me, even if he does get his deck very thin, he should be able to win quite easily, especially given the fact that Yawgmoth Will’s in a deck like this, that will have a much larger graveyard than most, are just that much more broken.  So needing a card like Timetwister to essentially reset things is just a wasted slot in my opinion.

Quote  One thing I noticed both Nick and Aaron are lacking is Abeyance (taking a play from the Parfait playbook). When I ran Scepter, that was the first card after Fire/Ice that I planned on abusing. With the sheer amount if Scepters you're running, you could simply have games where you Wish for Abeyance EOT, Scepter it the next, and essentially win from there.

I defiantly agree that Abeyance, or if you fear creatures, maybe even Orim’s Chant would be a good inclusion.   Its more a matter of what you expect to go up against.   I think more often than not Abeyance would be the better card to stick on a scepter, but that’s not to say Orim’s Chant wouldn’t have its uses as well.   Creature wise with the amount of creatures you have, you shouldn’t have any problems maintaining board position.

- Grendal