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Author Topic: Combo Post Restriction.  (Read 6409 times)
Maxx Matt
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« on: December 02, 2003, 04:47:33 am »

Before starting writing a thought come in my mind....
"I heard about the restriction of Gush and suddenly the best AggroControlDeck would not be GAT but Hulk, very different in single cards choices..."

Now we have Long dead because of restriction and I start to talk about "Tentrix" ( slops for the Name... )

Here in Italy is more popular that Long.dec even in the prerestriction days because of it doesn't scoop to a couple of well placed and timed Artifact&Combo Hate and even if it took an average turn 2 or 3 to win and it is a little slower than Long, it is more consistent and well protected ( .. at least hearing very good players that wins with it during our gaming season... )

I'll post a list that performed well in many tourney around here and could compete very well with the other top decks ( I mean , WelderMUD, ChaliceKeeper, ChaliceVoid, ScepterKeeper, Mask, L&S.dec, TnT.dec, Dragon and so on... )


MAIN DECK
(Protection)
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
(Drawers)
1 Frantic Search
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Timetwister
1 Memory Jar
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
(Tutors)
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
(SafeKeepers)
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild
(Winners)
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Mind's Desire
1 Yawgmoth's Will
(Mana)
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Tolarian Academy
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Glimmering Void
2 Underground Sea

SIDEBOARD
1 Island
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rushing River
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Misdirection
3 Hydroblast
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Overload
1 Fire/Ice
1 Hurkyll's Recall

 
-The deck as a great imunity to Hate as CotV, due to the presence of various CC removals for it.
-The deck can go off with bargain and necro just as fast as any other deck build to win with them
-The deck as some proactive cards that help a lot to open your path to the victory ( Duress, Draw-7 ) and to block some possible 1st broken turn of the opponent ( FoW AND Duress are really good )
-Any removals here ( Chain of Vapor, Rebuild and H.Recall ) aren't  dead cards if they pop up in your hand at some point of the game because they can get rid of opponents lock/stall permanents AND/OR let you to rise the StormCount and win more easily with one big Tendril
-Any removals here let you not to scoop to a Keeper that cast a couple of mindless CotVs, a monoblack that torment you with CotV AND Sphere, to a Workshop.dec that slow you down with Sphere, Wire and Staks, to a Scepter with a Stiffle on it and so on...

If you look at it you can see how it shine in Safer-Match where Long.dec have 1st turn kill. Duress let you to be more sure of your moves and even if it could lose you a turn it usually break the game agaisnt your worst eneny of ever: Workshop.dec and Control.dec.

My words are of course not so good to read.. so I let the results talk for them.
I'll show you some results and the evolution of the Top8 in Real LIfe Huge POwered Tourneys during the time and during this Combo Season:

GENOVA 24/08 (51 players)
1) Alessandro Fugallo (Rector Trix)
2) Marco Ardoino (Trix)
3) Gianluca Verno (Vengeur Mask)
4) Riccardo Angileri (Burning Agony)
5) Pietro Cavalletti (Rector Trix)
6) Marco Sponza (Gro Atog)
7) Rocco Palumbo (Reanimator UB)
8) Alessandro Storti (Burning Agony)
No Tentrix still developed or showed at thi time for this tourney

GENOVA 24/09 ( 30 players )
1) Danilo Benvenuti (Keeper)
2) Lorenzo Fedeli (Hulk Smash)
3) Alessandro Fugallo (Rector Trix)
4) Alessandro Testa (Keeper)
5) Gianluca Verno (Vengeur Mask)
6) Rocco Palumbo (Tentrix)
7) Luca Lo Bianzo (Tentrix)
8) Massimo Terreni (Stacker)
Other 2 Tentrix among the Top16 Players

BRESCIA 5/10  ( 45 players )
1) Marco Monfrini (Hulk Smash)
2) Giampiero Ronzo (Lock & Stock)
3) Pietro Cavalletti (Rector Trix)
4) Ivan Lancini (Lock & Stock)
5) Claudio Ferloni (Mono Red)
6) Giorgio Riccò (Burning Agony)
7) Davide Foresti (Rector Tendril)
8) Davide Morandi (Rector KrOath Trix)
The only 2 Tentrix Players are 13 and 17-Worst Tourney for this Deck


MASSA 12/10 ( 139 Players )
1) Luigi Cecchini (TNT)
2) Lorenzo Fedeli (Hulk Smash)
3) Marco Ardoino (Lock & Stock)
4) Alessandro Fugallo (Tentrix)
5) Ryan Hoffman (Rector Tendril)
6) Davide Foresti (Stacker)
7) Alberto Bertinetti (Stacker)
8) Damien Levet (Lock & Stock)
We have Tentrix 9 and 11 due to rating. 8 Swiss Tunrs are a lot and witha lot of shit...

MILANO 19/10  (71 players )
1) Humbert Milazzo (Tentrix)
2) Giamperio Ronzo (Lock & Stock)
3) Nader Youssef (Mono Black)
4) Antonio Gammarota (Rector Trix)
5) Alberto Ferloni (Hulk Smash)
6) Marco Marnati (TNT)
7) Davide Foresti (Hulk Smash)
8) Danilo Benvenuti (Keeper)
another 3 Tentrix players. Only one of them in the top16

PIACENZA 26/10  ( 60 Players )
1) Luca Simone (Tentrix)
2) Marco Ardoino (Lock & Stock)
3) Massimo Taccani (Hulk Smash)
4) Giorgio Riccò (Tentrix)
5) Gianluca Verno (Vengeur Mask)
6) Giorgi Donadei (Parfait)
7) Filippo Grigatti (Lock & Stock)
8) David Beduzzi (Miss America)
Only 3 Tentrix Players among 60. 2 of them in the Top8. The last one placed 18°

LUCCA 1/11 ( 128 players )
1) Marco Monfrini (Hulk Smash)
2) Luigi Cecchini (TnT)
3) Massimo Mattioli (Keeper)
4) Marco Leoni (Welder Mud)
5) Andrea Sanguinetti (Oath)
6) Danilo Benvenuti (Benga's KiodoFactory)
7) Alessandro Testa (Rector Trix)
8) Andrea Giorgini (Lock & Stock)
Tentrix placed 9 and 11

BRESCIA 16/11 (69 players )
1) Pietro Cavalletti (Rector Tendril)
2) Enea Salvaderi (Stacker)
3) David Beduzzi (Miss America)
4) Luca Lo Bianco (Tentrix)
5) Riccò Giorgio (Tentrix)
6) Dario Villa (Goblin)
7) Iari Negrini (Goblin)
8) Davide Foresti (Stacker)

MILANO 23/11 ( 71 players )
1 Luca Lo Bianco (Tentrix)
2 Pietro Cavalletti (Rector Tendril)
3 Davide Foresti (Stacker)
4 Daniele D'amico (Miss America)
5 Filippo Grigatti (Lock & Stock)
6 Humbert Milazzo (Tentrix)
7 Alessandro Storti (Lock & Stock)
8 Daniele Villa (B/R Void)
Other 2 Tentrix in the Top16

PIACENZA 30/11 ( 65 players )
1) David Beduzzi (Lock & Stock)
2) Matteo Rubini (Madness)
3) Marco Leoni (Welder Mud)
4) Danilo Benvenuti (Benga's Kiodo Factory)
5) Filippo Grigatti (Lock & Stock)
6) Antonino Mancuso (Lock & Stock)
7) Luca Simone (Tentrix)
8) Alessandro Sgaravato (Zoo)

So as you can see, during this months the deck has acquired a place of respect and deserves carefully attention at least here in Italy, where his frequency in the Top 8 is near to 100%. Siral and other good players here tried to tune it day after days and the list that I posted above is the best one in the last HateMetagame of November.
After the restriction some slot could change to improve the versatility or the speed of the deck but the core of the deck would not be changed and ALL the deck isn't touched by a single restriction.

This deck require a lot of skill to be played due to the absence of the Row Power or Led and WIsh. It performed in a very different ways in different hands piloted by different minds. So be careful to judge it as good or bad after seeing the list. I can't win a lot with it but many other here Win&WIn&Win without my difficulties... so I take care of what they say and didn't refuse the deck only because I'm not able to win with it with consistency.
I'm astonished as you about the good results during this months and in this Difficult Field.


... as the switch GaT-->Hulk 6 months ago...
Now this probably would be the direction to follow to revamp combo and break the meta another time .

Critique are the best ways to test yourself.
Any thoughts?\n\n

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Kaervek
Guest
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2003, 05:21:08 am »

You do realise the deck you posted bears remarkable similarities to The Perfect Storm (a.k.a. Dutch Tendrils), don't you? We've been playing this deck over here for months on end and yes, it works. For reference, here's a list. The (minimal) differences with your list are marked in bold.

4 Force of Will
4 Duress

1 Frantic Search
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Timetwister
1 Memory Jar
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker

2 Hurkyl’s Recall
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Spiral

1 Mind's Desire
1 Yagwmoth's Will
 
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Grim Monolith
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island  
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand


Basically, the only differences are:
- we run 3 Tendrils where you run 2
- we run 2 H. Recall's main where you run 1 and supplement it with Rebuild and Chain.
- We run a Time Spiral main where you don't.
- we run a 'fetchable' land manabase whereas you run the more or less standard Long multicolor manabase.

I'm not saying your build is inferior (heck, your choices may even be superior to ours) but I doubt that these minimal changes warrent a new name for your build Razz

It was played by Hero (Pyromaniac on TMD) on the 30/08 to claim 4th place in Eindhoven, and on the 14/09 by myself to claim second place in Castricum, both of which tourneys were covered on Morphling.de, incuding decklists. Hero also played a preliminary testing version of the deck on the 19/07 tourney in Antwerp (though if memory serves, he didn't T8 with it). All these tournaments were wellahead of the 24/09 Genova tourney where you state 'Tentrix' marked its first appearance.

So let's just call it TPS in the future, shall wel? Wink\n\n

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Maxx Matt
Guest
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2003, 06:24:24 am »

No problem about the name.
The nature of the 2 deck is really similar and the changes aren't so relevant even IMHO.

The goal should be capitalizing some choices to see how those differences could or not improve the match.

Talking about this deck with my teammates, they refused to use both the 3° Tendril and the Spiral after a lot of testing.

I suggested a single tendril AND a Burnign Wish for an increase of versatility but noone approve my statement due to the fact that usually the deck need 2 Shot to Win and passing through Wish-->Tendrils seems pointless and too risky for them.

How works 3 Tendrils for you?
What do you think about going 2 Tendril and the Single Burning, obviously with some minor changes to the Side to possibly use it often and in a consistent way?


Some of us dropped to 1 Tendril and Add a single cunning Wish to cast for Brain Freeze and other Istant solution from the side. I see at it as a good way to deal with some nasty control decks, mmilling their resources and eventually istant winning with it.

The mana base issue is the more complex.
The one showed is mine. Ir is assembled for fast kill but it is more exposed to wasteland.
Yours seems the more consistent and for a long term plan.M y teammates Siral aproved totally yours and only  switched a single Fetchland for his everpresent LoA ( which I disapproved in this deck... he found it useful, I found it awful... )

When you found Spiral useful? Isn't it a bit overcosted and not always resolvable? ( when I played it, finished to be my pitchable preferred card... )
When you foun dmonolith useful? it ain you only one mana if you use it as soon as you cast it and I don't know if there were too much situation to use it more than another land for example...

Maybe after restrictions and after a bit less pain for the combo, a single removal slot should be used in another way, maybe with my porposed Single Burning WIsh, maybe with a new Drawer/Tutor/Winner... not sure about it until now.

With the single Buring Wish ( and the previuos maindeck... )this would be my side:

1 Mind Twist
1 Balance
1 Primitive Justice
1 Serenity
2 Pyro
2 ReB
3 Hydro
1 Mis-D
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Fire/Ice
1 Rushing River

What do you think?
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Kaervek
Guest
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2003, 07:05:51 am »

Quote
Quote The goal should be capitalizing some choices to see how those differences could or not improve the match.

Couldn't agree more. I definitley believe this could be a very potent combo build now that it's out of Long's shadow. Let's make things better Smile

Quote
Quote I suggested a single tendril AND a Burnign Wish for an increase of versatility but noone approve my statement due to the fact that usually the deck need 2 Shot to Win and passing through Wish-->Tendrils seems pointless and too risky for them. How works 3 Tendrils for you? What do you think about going 2 Tendril and the Single Burning, obviously with some minor changes to the Side to possibly use it often and in a consistent way? Some of us dropped to 1 Tendril and Add a single cunning Wish to cast for Brain Freeze and other Istant solution from the side. I see at it as a good way to deal with some nasty control decks, mmilling their resources and eventually istant winning with it.

One of our teammembers has done both of these. It makes the deck slightly more tricky to play, but definitely more versatile. He won the October Duelmen tournament with this build:

1 Grim Monolith
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
1 Necropotence
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Cunning Wish
3 Force of Will
1 Frantic Search
2 Meditate
1 Mind's Desire
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Windfall
1 Burning Wish
1 Wheel of Fortune
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island

SB:
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Brain Freeze
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Force of Will
2 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Phyrexian Negator
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Tormod's Crypt

I definitely agree with you that LoA is not a good incusion in this deck. You have little need for colorless mana, and a high need for colored sources. what's more, you just don't need the cards. You simply dont have the time to use LoA effectively. You're not a control deck; you should have won before LoA ever becomes useful.

Spiral is indeed overcoste, but it makes for a nice tutoring target i fthe situation calls for it. It has won me several games by shamelessly untapping Tolarian Academy, which is more useful here than in Long since you just don't have the LED's to make enough mana. But I'll grant you that I've more often used it as FoW-fodder. I've recently become a big fan of Diminishing Returns (allthough that card is undoubtedly better in Long than in TPS, it still might be good enough).

SB looks decent, but I'm way too scared of Chalice. If you have a single Cunning and Burning Wish, I'd inlude at least a Crumble and a Meltdown.
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Siral
Guest
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2003, 09:00:09 am »

Tetris (better name than Tentrix )

4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island (Thinking about 1 Volcanic 1 Badlands)
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Tolarian Academy
1 City of Brass
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Library of Alexandria (MVP vs control matchup above all vs Hulk Smash since it doesn't use wasteland)
7 SoLoMoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ancestral REcall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tainted Pact (Testing but usually is a Cunning Wish)
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
4 Dark Ritual
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Frantic Search
1 Mind's Desire
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall

Sideboard
1 Island (MVP)
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Overload
1 Rack and Ruin
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
2 Misdirection (1 Brainfreeze if Cunning Wish Main Deck)
1 Stifle
2 Tormod's Crypt (2 Coffin Puge if Cunning WIsh Main Deck)


The another version we use here in italy is based on a different mana base with 4 city 4 gemstone to have accesso to white for Enlightened Tutor and some power white cards in sideboard like balance, sphere of law (pyrostatic pillar!!) and sacred ground
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Kaervek
Guest
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2003, 09:15:19 am »

Please state the relevance of the previous post. I realise that I, too, posted two lists, but the first list I posted was an attempt to prove that we thought of the deck first. I elaborated on this. The second list was a reply to the original poster's question as to if we'd already tried the 1 Cunning Wish / 1 Burning Wish variant.

I'd like you to edit you previous post to include some information as to why you're posting it and some elaboration on card choices. Simply changing 2 cards in the MD and slapping a new name on it does not make it a new deck, or worthy of a post.
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Toad
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« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2003, 10:04:38 am »

Bram,
Why have you choosen to run a dual lands + fetchlands mana base instead of the commonly known City of Brass + Gemstone Mine one ? Your build is a straight 3-colors one, but I don't see the point of not running lands that give you access to all your colours on the first turn (even if 5 fetchlands obviously help a lot). Care to explain ?

Matt.
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Thug
Guest
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2003, 10:28:34 am »

Going for Cities and Mines allows the use of Swarms, which makes the control matchup (even) better.

Aside from that I think a single Chrome Mox and a Single LED should be added maybe together with a crop rotation to speed up the deck.

The removal of Fetchalnds does make the mana-base slightly more vulnerable and makes Brainstorm slightly worse, but it also provides a lot of new options.

Koen
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MoreFling
Guest
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2003, 10:40:56 am »

Since the metagame will probably be moving towards control anyway now, I think Thug is right on all accounts. Xantid Swarm inclusion is just too good to pass up.

edit: for more value to my post:

Chrome Mox: I think it's really silly not to include the 1-allowed copy. Right now, it's difficult to say how much you want... 2? maybe 3? But with only 1 allowed, it actually makes it more easy since they've chosen for us Wink

LED: I'm not so sure about this one. It's obviously still very good, but you can't really rely on it, and I think it will often be a dead card. We'll see.\n\n

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Smmenen
Guest
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2003, 10:41:51 am »

I think the central issue is in how fast we want the deck we choose to be.

I think any viable combo deck - any one of these NEO-ACADEMY decks, becuase that's what they are - they simply are Chapin Academy + Scourge and Mirrodin - Must have a turn two goldfish with at least a 10% chance of winning on turn one.  Turn three wins are for 2001.  

I have some ideas.  But I'm willing to hear you guys out.

Steve
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Kaervek
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« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2003, 11:23:09 am »

Heheh. It's a rare occasion when I agree with everyone Smile Let me elaborate:

Quote
Quote Bram,
Why have you choosen to run a dual lands + fetchlands mana base instead of the commonly known City of Brass + Gemstone Mine one ?

In order to understand that, you have to know the history of the deck's development. It started as a common Rectortrix build (westredale's list, largely). Then we realised the potential of Tendrils (this was before long.dec) and 'substituted' the Donate/Illusions combo with Tendrils. I went on my summer vacation at this point, and Pyro an Morefling continued to work on the deck. When I came back a mere 2 weeks later, testing had showed that Rector was hopelessly slow and it was cut and changed to (roughly) the build described above. At this time, Long.dec emerged thanks to Smmenen and proved to be so incredibly strong thar we feared LED's and Wish' restrictions so we continued to work on the deck. After a while, I succombed to the Dark Side and started playing Long as well. Marco kept playing TPS succesfully at various tourneys however. Ever since news about the restrictions hit, my thoughts have turned towards TPS again. And after having played Long intesively, I concur the gemstone mine / city manabase likely IS better. One could give certain arguments AGAINST it, such as: TPS is slower and concievably, a Mine may actually deplete before you win. Also, fetchlands make Brainstorm that much better. But I agree that these arguments are likely overshadowed by the versatility offered by long's mana base.

Quote
Quote Going for Cities and Mines allows the use of Swarms, which makes the control matchup (even) better.

Aside from that I think a single Chrome Mox and a Single LED should be added maybe together with a crop rotation to speed up the deck.

Agreed. Swarms are insane, especially now that it seems that Keeper is getting better. Will definitley be tested maindeck. I freakin' LOVED them in Long Wink

Quote
Quote Chrome Mox: I think it's really silly not to include the 1-allowed copy. Right now, it's difficult to say how much you want... 2? maybe 3? But with only 1 allowed, it actually makes it more easy since they've chosen for us Wink

LED: I'm not so sure about this one. It's obviously still very good, but you can't really rely on it, and I think it will often be a dead card. We'll see.

I believe we can replace the now-obsolete Grim Monolith from our build with a single Chrome Mox. And since Will is apparently still legal, a single LED doesn't hurt either. Especially if you run the 2 Tendrils / 1 wish configuration (which I certainly intend to do).

Quote
Quote I think any viable combo deck - any one of these NEO-ACADEMY decks, becuase that's what they are - they simply are Chapin Academy + Scourge and Mirrodin - Must have a turn two goldfish with at least a 10% chance of winning on turn one.  

I'm not disputing the fact that this is Academy's next logical step. yes, this deck is basically neo-academy. Calling it neo-academy is confusing however since it really doesn't specify what the deck does. Also, since it came about through a totally different route, I believe a new name is justified Smile

All in all, I think it's time we merge Long and TPS into a viable, optimal build. I'll piost my new take on it a.s.a.p.

P.S. Smmenen: I can't wait to hear if your idea includes ESG Smile
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Smmenen
Guest
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2003, 01:11:58 pm »

That's exactly what I've done.  I merged the two decks.

Let's start with Long:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Glimmervoid
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
4 Chromoatic Sphere
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

Protecting/Setting up the Combo:
4 Duress
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral
1 Time Walk

Tutors:
4 Burning Wish
1 DT
1 Vamp
1 Mystical
1 Consult

I Win Now:
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Mind's Desire
1 Necropotence
1 Wheel
1 Windfall
1 Tinker
1 Jar
1 Timetwister

Finishers:
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB:
1 Tendrils
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Diminishing Returns
3 Crumble
4 Xantid Swarm
2 Primitive Justice
2 Meltdown
1 Stifle


So let's begin with the obvious Changes:
- 3 LED
- 3 Burning Wish
- 1 Glimmervoid

+ 4 Elvish Spirit Guide.  I don't want to add Chrome Mox in just yet, as I still haven't liked that card in testing.  That's a card that will come in during a final tuning.  

+ 1 Yawgmoth's Will
And probably:
+ 1 Tendrils
+ 1 other card

These are the absolutely necessary first changes.  I'd like to keep the Chromatic Spheres as with Dark Rituals and ESG they really help fix mana.  Thier synergy with Draw7s in terms of not knowing what to get, Brainstorm, and the Mirage tutors is undeniable.

Beyond those changes there are a couple of directions we can go.  

In general, one land can probably be cut.

First, we could add Force of Wills.  In order to do this, we'll probably need to cut into Duresses - even if just one.

If we add Force of Will's I'd like to add several Diminshing Returns to the mainboard.

The key answer is whether these things are necessary for resiliency AND for Speed.  

So my first stab is in that direction, I cut cards for the Force of Wills and 2 Returns: - 1 land, -1 Duress, -1 Chrome Spheres and that fit me the 4 FoWs - I don't remember what else I cut for the two returns.

However, this is not the only direction we can take it.  It is arguable, that Spoils of the Vault should be in this deck.  However, there aren't many good 4-of targets.  Much work to do.

Stephen Menendian
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BreathWeapon
Guest
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2003, 01:22:17 pm »

Before we move on to TPS, or merge it with Long, has anyone tried to salvage Long with the inclusion of Death Wish and Elvish Spirit Guide? I think it would be prudent to determine just how much power Long has lost before we completely abandon it. I guess thats more of an indirect question towards Steve. Any thoughts?

That said, the TPS lists look very strong. I fully support the decision to run the City/Gemstone/Glimmer Manabase for Xantid swarms SB, Control is now #1. The addition of Chrome Mox and LED also seems like a rational decision.

Keep up the good work.

Edit: Bah, Steve got here first.

@Chromatic Sphere, shouldn't Force of Will take Chromatic Sphere's place over Duress? Now that Long/TPS is only running 2 Red cards the Spheres seem like a major crutch. I always felt that if you had a good head on your shoulders that they weren't a necessary 3-4x in Long. Seeing as how the need for the Spheres could stand to be decreased as a players skill level and experience with the deck increase, wouldn't that be the first thing to cut over Duress ... which is a arguably more important to the deck than the Sphere out of the gate?\n\n

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Smmenen
Guest
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2003, 01:49:29 pm »

I'm not sure this is a question that testing can bear out.  The benefit of Chromatic Sphere is that it can speed up the deck by a full half turn by doing what I said it does to Mirage Tutors and by fixing mana.  I think with ESG the mana and Dark Ritual, the mana does indeed need fixing.  Four Green Lotus Petals suggest this.  Turning a Dark Ritual Blue may be a compelling reason in itself.  I'm trying to see if this can be a regular turn two combo deck.  I know it's not going to be turn one like Long - but if it can be consistent turn two, then we are onto something I can support.  

As for Long - someone should indeed test with Death Wish just to gauge its power - I'll see what I can do.

Steve
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Thug
Guest
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2003, 05:57:46 pm »

*curse* I just typed a reply for 30 minutes, started up a program and saw my computer crash *curse*

Ok, once again, all from the start  

And once again I apologize for posting yet another list in this thread, but I think it can only increase the quality of this thread and the deck.

I’ve had two days now to test TPS post-restriction and I came up with a list that is faster than any I’ve seen so far. It can almost always goldfish on turn 2 (just not 99% like long can) and also bust out a turn one kill from time to time. This impresses me a lot, since the deck still runs 4 Duress and 4 FoW.

Here’s the list:

Lands: (11)

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy

Other Mana Sources: (17)

5 “normal” Moxen
1 Mox Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
4 Dark Ritual

Card Advantage: (14)

3 Brainstorm
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Timetwister
1 Mind’s Desire
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Frantic Search
1 Ancestral Recall

Tutors: (6)

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Burning Wish
1 Crop Rotation

Protection: (8)

4 Duress
4 Force of Will

Others: (4)

1 Time Walk
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Hurkyl’s Recall



Some Explanations:

Underground Seas over Glimmervoid/UP. From time to time you only brainstorm/ancestral/duress/swarm on your turn, and that makes running Glimmervoid very risky. If maindeck Swarm would be included there might be need to find a different land. UP is not that land since the drawback totally doesn’t fit into the deck, you want every land you can get.

Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond and Lion’s Eye Diamond: You need these to speed up the deck so that you can outrun Hate and Counters. These cards also make the deck a lot more consistent.

Crop Rotation and Frantic Search: This deck is based around Academy, and although you don’t need it at all to win, it makes winning a lot easier. Crop rotation also speeds the deck up.

The Duresses could also be replaced with Swarms, or a split could be played. I like both options a lot, and think the metagame should decide the choice between the two.

One Burning Wish, with possibly only 3 or 4 cards to get from the sideboard (Tendrils, (maybe) Balance, Justice/Hull Breach/Vindicate and (maybe) Diminishing Returns). But it also combos nice with Returns, Will and Necro.

Hurkyl’s Recall over Chain of Vapor, both cards have their merits, chain cannot deal with chalice and H. Recall can not deal with enchantments. But the second function, creating mana/spells, made me choose H. Recall over Chain.

I did not test ESG in this deck yet, because I simply cannot find any cards to cut, and the elves do not fuel the Academy, like the mana artifacts do, nor do they have synergy with Will, Tinker, H. Recall or Desire.

I’m interested in a Long deck with ESG’S and possibly Death Wishes, but I doubt if it can get any stronger than this deck, since there’s very little change that it will be a lot faster than this deck, and the 4 FoW’s make a huge difference in some matchups.

I’m sure I missed something this second time, but I can’t find it right now

Koen
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RJPARJ
Guest
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2003, 09:14:29 pm »

So since the new restriction and the liking of playing Long, I have decided to work on long to make it a deck that can still win but not on first turn.  Its more or less a garunteed third turn win but can put out turn two wins.  If you want to see a decklist I will post one but I figure theres been enough decklists going around that I shouldnt post mine

RJ
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Kaervek
Guest
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2003, 04:09:08 am »

This is finally turing into the dicussion I wanted all along for TPS. I've put together a different list. Rather than spam this therad with more lists, I'll just give you guys The Link.

I'm no firm believer in the ESG route yet (no spell, wrong mana, not 'recurrable' in Will) and as such run no Spheres. I did opt for a maindeck Returns as it really is the best of the bad draw-7's.

You'll also notice Necro's absence. I'm unsure about that (in other words: I really want it in) so I'll likely be cutting the 2nd Hurkyl's Recall for it. I definitely still want one maindeck, though. As I have previously stated in another thread, Hurkyl's Recall is way better in TPS than it is in Long.

Since there's hardly any 4-ofs to speak of other than the combo protectors, I've cut Consultation (no LED or Wish as targets).

As I have had MAD good experiences with Swarms, I've put them (and 4 Duresses) maindeck for now. This leaves no room for FoW, but the amount of blue cards in the deck do infact allow a 1-on-1 swap with either of my current anti-control 4-ofs for FoWs. Basically, I have 8 slots available to hate control, and I expect I shall need 'em over here. The optimal configuration must be tested.

Smmenen: running only 1 Tendrils maindeck is mad risky in this build (especially in mine, with a MD Diminishing returns). You only have 1 Wish as a backup plan. I feel that 2 Tendrils / 1 Wish is the way to go.

Thug: I think you may have a point about the glimmervoid / sea thing. I'll test it.

[EDIT] Uh, maybe I won't. I run 4x Swarm Smile

[EDIT] Make that a definite on putting in Necro. With 3 wishes less, you really can't afford to cut back on card drawers.\n\n

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RJPARJ
Guest
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2003, 05:48:47 am »

I have a quick question, does TPS need Bargain or Mind's Desire to win the game or is it just an added bonus?
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Thug
Guest
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2003, 08:41:30 am »

Some thougts about the deck:

Quote
Quote You'll also notice Necro's absence. I'm unsure about that (in other words: I really want it in) so I'll likely be cutting the 2nd Hurkyl's Recall for it. I definitely still want one maindeck, though. As I have previously stated in another thread, Hurkyl's Recall is way better in TPS than it is in Long.

Agreed, but I also Think Necro is a lot better in TPS than in Long, but mostly because of Force of Will. But since you don't run FoW anymore cutting Necropotence makes more sense.

That doesn't mean I agree on cutting FoW's. I found that with Duresses and FoW's you can almost always counter your opponents fow (with either Duress of FoW off course). So that leaves very little reason for a card like swarm. It can stilll be a sideoboard cards, but I don't think it's needed maindeck.

Also a note on you're sideboard: I woulldn't run Crumble's. Since your opponents should be dropping their Chalice on 1 it almost always is dead. I would go with Seal of Cleansing so that you also can deal with Pillar/Lab/Animates.

Quote
Quote I have a quick question, does TPS need Bargain or Mind's Desire to win the game or is it just an added bonus?

I like Desire a lot more in this deck than I ever liked it in Long. In this deck it's often an "I win" card, and you need those now that you can't play with 4 Wills and 4 Led's to fuel them.

There are not needed, but when you play them they often equal winning\n\n

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Kaervek
Guest
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2003, 08:45:13 am »

Opinions may vary.

I believe they are needed. Bargain is an 'I Win Right Now' card if it sees play. And with the amount of accelleration you run, a T1 Bargain isn't a rare sight. Mind's Desire is essential in order to win a control matchup that got out of hand.

Either way, you now run 3 fewer Wishes. This means you'll need your tutoring power for Will most of the time. It also means you won't have easy access to you SB draw-7's like you did in Long. The days of 'Heck, I'll wish for a Returns and draw into another Wish for Will' are gone, so IMHO you can't really afford to cut back on game-breakers like Desire or Bargain.

[EDIT] Didn't see Thug's allmost simultaneous post that basically said the same thing Smile\n\n

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Dr. Sylvan
Guest
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2003, 08:56:36 am »

Koen, do you ever have problems with Mox Diamond? I would be nervous to run it in a deck like this, and I haven't seen it in most of the other lists.

If there needs to be a multiland and Glimmervoid doesn't fit, is there a reason not to use Tarnished Citadel? Does 3, 6, or even 9 damage really matter in cases where the opponent isn't getting a wicked fast start with Masknought? Most of the decks that seem capable of making that drawback matter don't have the disruption to stop your turn-two win.

Just a thought.

-Phil
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Thug
Guest
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2003, 04:16:40 pm »

Quote
Quote Koen, do you ever have problems with Mox Diamond? I would be nervous to run it in a deck like this, and I haven't seen it in most of the other lists.

Depends on what you call "having problems". With just a single land your Mox Diamond become's useful, when you draw two card you can start calling it good. The only real problems it could cause it that you would rather have a different card. I haven't had problems with Mox Diamond, but that doesn't mean it has totally proven itself, and I'm curious on other peoples opinions about the card.

Quote
Quote If there needs to be a multiland and Glimmervoid doesn't fit, is there a reason not to use Tarnished Citadel? Does 3, 6, or even 9 damage really matter in cases where the opponent isn't getting a wicked fast start with Masknought? Most of the decks that seem capable of making that drawback matter don't have the disruption to stop your turn-two win.

Citadel is rather poor with Necropotence and Bargain. And even with Time Walk/Frantic Search damage can add up pretty fast. The Sea's are decent, but not outstanding, I guess it's time to read every land card that provides mana of any colour  

Koen
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Justin
Guest
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2003, 10:16:28 pm »

Im working on running death wish now with cabal ritual in place of chromatic sphere, since the 1 R or 1 U needed are generally able to be produced. I havent had much success with it, but im also drunk. Has anyone tried fitting the grim monolith combo into this? Death wish would fetch braingeyser or stroke in a cinch. -Justin

BTW -Does anyone need LED's or burning wishes? got 7 extra of each =)
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Kaervek
Guest
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2003, 06:01:50 am »

Quote
Quote Im working on running death wish now with cabal ritual in place of chromatic sphere

I've been trying the same thing. Conclusions: Death Wish is (barely) good enough as a Burning Wish replacement, and Cabal Ritual is not good enough to replace LED. It isn't horrible either, since it's always a spell and 1 extra mana, but I don't appear to have threshold anywhere near often enough to make it decent.
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