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Author Topic: Mystic Keeper  (Read 5749 times)
specialk
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« on: December 04, 2003, 05:51:50 am »

I just took this deck to a tournamet saturday and sunday with success on saturday in a dragonless field and lost sunday to dragon.  I was wondering what I might do to change the sideboard for the dragon match up without taking too much out for other match ups.


Mystic Keeper
-------------------

The good color
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
4 Manadrain
3 Brainstorm
3 Cunning wish
3 Mystic Remora
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time walk
1 Fact or Fiction

Black
3 Duress
1 Demonic tutor
1 Mindtwist
1 Yawgmoth's will

White
3 Swords to plowshare
2 Decree of Justice

Red
0-----

Mana Sources
1 Black Lotus
1 Solring
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip mine
2 Islands
2 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Flooded Strand

Sideboard
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Flame Tongue Kavu
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Misdirection
1 Disenchant
1 Coffin Purge
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Swords to plowshare
1 Aura Fracture


I was thinking of taking red out totally and with that the wishes but haven't tested it yet.

Mystic Keeper
-------------------

The Good Color(22)
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
4 Manadrain
4 Brainstorm
3 Mystic Remora
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time walk
1 Fact or Fiction

Gold(1)
1 Vindicate

Black(6)
3 Duress
1 Demonic tutor
1 Mindtwist
1 Yawgmoth's will

White(7)
3 Swords to plowshare
2 Decree of Justice
2 Dismantling Blow

Mana Sources(25)
1 Black Lotus
1 Solring
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip mine
2 Islands
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
1 Plains

Sideboard
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Aura Fracture
3 Energy Flux
3 Masticore
3 Chill
3 Tormod's Crypt

I don't really like the chills but it helps with blood moon based control and red aggro based decks.  I still don't like chills and am open to any suggestions for replacing them.\n\n

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Ultima
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« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2003, 09:55:20 am »

The 2nd list is certainly better than the first list.

Coffin purge in the side is a must in this meta and the upcoming IMO.

The additions of the 4th waste and brainstorm are definitely good.  I don't really think that mystic remora is good in keeper because Keeper isn't very aggressive, but if you like go for it.

Keep cunning wish at 2 and cut the 3rd misdirect and the vindicate.

I think disenchant is better than d-blow becuase of the speed of the environment if you want to run that card MD.  

just my .02
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Toad
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« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2003, 10:02:00 am »

Mystic Remora will hardly do anything else than making you tap mana during your own turn, which is something you absolutely don't want to do unless you are forced to.

Also, why did you choose to cut Red from your build ? Red gives you access to Rack and Ruin, Gorilla Shaman and Red Elemental Blast, which are some of the best cards ever.
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Razor
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« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2003, 10:07:31 am »

I've watched this deck play very well.  I've noted that it probably owns Fish and Landstill decks based purely on its card choices.  Decree of Justice cycling men through an opposing Standstill is some good I hear.

Mystic Ramora is the old-school pre-Standstill card drawer - nice to see it resurrected again!

I disapproved of his dropping red too for the same reasons Toad.  He was attempting to shore up his mana-base against Blood Moon I think.
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2003, 01:41:19 pm »

MD Dismantling Blow is better than Disenchant, Workshopped Chalices always = 2 it seems. 2 Monkeys 1 Dismantling Blow is solid anti Chalice love.
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specialk
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« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2003, 04:27:41 pm »

D.Bow wasn't just for chalice but certanly helps, it is for scepters and pesky animate spells too and helps the deck in the workshop match up since I no longer have rack and ruin. Late game it is just good in the control mirror allowing more Eot card drawing.  With the 1 plains I can still deal with Bloodmoons.

The Vindicate is just random, often times it is just used to destroy a basic land in the control mirror or a scepter.  I was thinking of cuting this and something else for 2 stifles but haven't decided what yet.  I'd think that with Stifle being 1cc it will be better then vindicate if there is a remora in play.

I run Mystic Remora since it is some good aganist the stax Landstill and dragon match up.  I haven't test aganist control but I think this is good when there is a scepter in play with fire/ice or brainstorm on it as long as they don't have 6 mana sources in play.

@Toad I never really have trouble with the workshop match up so I decided to cut Red since it aloowed me to free up slots for Tormod's crypt which I need aganist dragon my worst match up.\n\n

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Toad
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« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2003, 05:58:24 pm »

Gorilla Shaman is the best card in Magic. Rack and Ruin is awesome. Red Elemental Blast will give you an edge in Blue based control Mirrors. Fire/Ice hurts weenies. I really see no real reason not to play Red.

Mystic Remora is weak against Dragon because they just have to cast 1 spell in order to win. And how can this be strong against Landstill ? This deck is tuned to run under Standstill...  
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specialk
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« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2003, 09:56:36 pm »

in my first build Duress, Red Elemental blast and 6 pitch counterworked great with me only having a few mana available
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specialk
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« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2003, 01:18:33 am »

Updated Uwb Mystic Keeper
-------------------

The Good Color(23)
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
4 Manadrain
4 Brainstorm
3 Mystic Remora
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time walk
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Stifle
Gold(0)

Black(6)
3 Duress
1 Demonic tutor
1 Mindtwist
1 Yawgmoth's will

White(7)
3 Swords to plowshare
2 Decree of Justice
2 Dismantling Blow

Mana Sources(25)
1 Black Lotus
1 Solring
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip mine
2 Islands
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
1 Plains

Sideboard
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Aura Fracture
3 Energy Flux
3 Masticore
2 Stifle
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Duress


I still want suggestion on the 4 color one as Red is really strong\n\n

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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2003, 01:55:23 am »

Why is everybody cutting Balance? I'd think one of the most broken environment defining cards of Christmass Past has a place in this deck.

I'm not sure how good Misdirection is, in the current environment. I only use 1 and thats in my SB, but I run Cunning Wish over Duress so hmm.

@Toad, I think your being overly harsh on Mystic Remora. Yes, you have to pay mana on your turn, but is it that big of a deal? This card has massive tempo implications vs the opponent that can't be ignored. If you can build a deck around Standstill, you can definately build a deck around the Remora.
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Toad
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« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2003, 04:37:36 am »

Quote from: BreathWeapon+Dec. 05 2003,07:55
Quote (BreathWeapon @ Dec. 05 2003,07:55)@Toad, I think your being overly harsh on Mystic Remora. Yes, you have to pay mana on your turn, but is it that big of a deal? This card has massive tempo implications vs the opponent that can't be ignored. If you can build a deck around Standstill, you can definately build a deck around the Remora.
Mystic Remora has Cumulative Upkeep, which means an heavy Control deck will be really reluctant to pay for it along lots of turns. When you play Keeper, there is nothing worse than tapping big amounts of mana during your own turn unless you do broken things. Mystic Remora is more an Aggro Control drawing engine, because you plan on winning fast, and thus the drawback is not that annoying.  Even after January 1st, the format will still be fast, as Dragon, TPS and Welder MUD will be strong contenders. If you wait until a few turns before you drop Mystic Remora, tempo will hardly be an issue, especially against Dragon, which has a single spell to cast to win the game, or against Welder MUD, because either it or Keeper would already be in Control. So you'd have to cast it in early game, and I can't imagine myself playing a first turn Remora and the upkeep on the second turn, preventing me from achieveing my UU threshold. Standstill is fine because you drop it, and then forget about it. You have no additionnal mana to spend on it each turn.
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Zherbus
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« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2003, 08:46:41 am »

I don't know who moved this to the newb tank, but it was unwarranted. Wu's bitch post was also uncalled for and should be an example of what not to do.
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CrazyCarl
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« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2003, 08:55:08 am »

Leviat has been running Mystic Remora in his Super Grow for some time now.  It would be intersting to hear his comments.

From what I saw however, It gave him a solid turn 1 drop that would let him develop his manabase, then when he was through with it, he would let it go, drop a threat, and drop a fresh one.  It was pretty insane against anything that required dropping lots of early artifact mana to do anything.
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dicemanX
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« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2003, 09:10:55 am »

Speaking from a theoretical point of view Toad, your analysis of Remora is spot on. However, from a practical point of view, Remora is a card not to be underestimated.

Quote
Quote If you wait until a few turns before you drop Mystic Remora, tempo will hardly be an issue, especially against Dragon, which has a single spell to cast to win the game, or against Welder MUD, because either it or Keeper would already be in Control.

I disagree with this. Keeper/U-based control decks don't automatically magically "gain control" after a few turns if Dragon or wMUD don't go off or lock you down. If Keeper survives the initial onslaught, then it comes down to a struggle that can go for many turns where the balance of power can switch easily. Remora puts opposing decks in a quandry - do they try to cast spells and give Keeper tons of cards, or do they hold off and let Keeper find the cards it needs to wrest control permanently. It is also untrue that Dragon only needs to cast one spell to win. In theory this is true, but in actual play this is far from the case.

 Yes, Remora eats mana during your turn, but you don't need so many turns to establish your game plan. If you prevent your opponents from playing spells early, then you'll get a chance to build your mana base, which is a very important part of your game plan in beating the high tiered decks. Against other control decks, Remora gives you a free hand in building your card advantage. Plus, you don't always need to play Remora right away; if you get UU mana up with Drain in hand, you might want to hold off until you cast that Drain.

I am not claiming that Remora is the be all and end all card in Keeper/U-based control decks. However, the card cannot be treated so lightly. It brought specialk a lot of success last tourney. He lost against my Dragon because of a little misfortune, but his Remoras kept him in the game where otherwise it probably would have been a rout. In both games I had to wait 8-10 turns for that Remora to go away while holding a fistful of cards that I wanted to cast. If he drew a little better during these draw-go phases of the game, the result might have been different.\n\n

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Shock Wave
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« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2003, 11:43:54 am »

Seeing as how most of you are sitting on both sides of the fence with respect to Mystic Remora, I feel the need to make an assertive criticism. Mystic Remora is generally not a good card, specifically because it does not guarantee card or tempo advantage, and because it can result in card disadvantage.

I don't think anybody has mentioned that in order for Mystic Remora to be effective, you have to consistenly ramp up your mana production. That means that you can't be missing mana source "drops" (lands, moxes, whatever). Furthermore, a well-timed Wasteland can just hose you.

I played against Arend's "Mystic Keeper" and the Remora was admittedly effective. However, he was extremely fortunate that a) he dropped mana sources for 6-7 straight turns, and b) I started missing land drops a few turns before hand.

Sure, if all you play against is combo or decks that need to accelerate quickly, Mystic Remora might be a solid choice. However, I don't think you can seriously consider this for a tournament that has any semblance of an aggro or control metagame.
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Tristal
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« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2003, 02:59:48 pm »

I can't comment on Mystic Remora, because I haven't tested it.

However, I do know that Coffin Purge is much, much better than Tormod's Crypt against Dragon - it doesn't really matter if their first turn Duress snags Coffin Purge, but it definitely deals with Crypt.

I'd put back the Cunning Wishes.  You might not need 3 in your UWB build, but at the very least you can run one (Say, cut a Dis-blow for it), and possibly cut one of the Stifles for another.

I'd put Balance in the SB replacing a Masticore.  They're both good against a weenie rush, but Balance has an added effectiveness of being pretty good against TnT-type beatdown too.

I also see no reason not to cut a Polluted Delta for the fourth Flooded Strand.  The basic Plains is very odd IMO, but at the very least this is an obvious change.

As for the 4-color version (Which on paper looks better, but I don't know your Metagame) you could consider cutting an FTK or the Aura Fracture for more Coffin Purges if you fear the Dragon matchup.
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2003, 03:15:51 pm »

I'm glad to see Zherbus had the good sense to move this thread to where it belongs.

That said, I think we need to take a look at the number of match ups that Mystic Remora is a HOUSE against more than deliberate on it in merely theoretical terms. I pretty much agree with DiceManX's perception of Remora to the word. I remember how much fun this card was against Long.dec for my U/r Fish, it was hella tech, and if it can find a place in any deck as a serious consideration towards the Metagame i'm definately all ears. Nobody ever got anywhere by dismissing other peoples tech in any form, period.
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Dante
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« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2003, 04:22:48 pm »

Quote from: BreathWeapon+Dec. 06 2003,14:15
Quote (BreathWeapon @ Dec. 06 2003,14:15)I'm glad to see Zherbus had the good sense to move this thread to where it belongs.

That said, I think we need to take a look at the number of match ups that Mystic Remora is a HOUSE against more than deliberate on it in merely theoretical terms. I pretty much agree with DiceManX's perception of Remora to the word. I remember how much fun this card was against Long.dec for my U/r Fish, it was hella tech, and if it can find a place in any deck as a serious consideration towards the Metagame i'm definately all ears. Nobody ever got anywhere by dismissing other peoples tech in any form, period.
ok let's look at it:

Fish or Gay/r - terrible.  they'll drop creatures, man-lands, wastelands and you'll have nothing but FoW to protect you (since you're spending mana on CU for M.Remora)

Mud/Stax - not so good.  Yes, you might draw a card or two, but if you're spending your mana on MR, you can't Mana Drain, which is one of your biggest weapons in this matchup, so you're relying on FoW.  Not having red is even worse games 2 and 3.  Plus, drawing cards won't stop smokestack or any of that.  If I'm the workshop player, I'm glad to see a MR eating your mana than UU for Mana drain.

TnT - making a comeback and filled with creatures.  MR is not so good here.  

Stacker - same as TnT.  There are more artifacts but typically more fat as well.  Not so good.

Dragon - Can be good as dragon has lots of spells, BUT, if you cast this early, you are leaving yourself open to only rely on FoW, especially since you aren't playing a full set of Moxes.  I would rate this as OK.

Long/TPS - This seems like it would be good, but again, unless you get an early mox/lotus, you're relying on FoW to save you, even though you will draw cards.  Ok to Good.

Gro - If you get an early remora, it will allow to to draw a lot of cards, but they will probably have an early threat (dryad, mage, whatever), so you'll need to dig for an StP.  OK

R/g beatz - Terrible.  They will drop creatures, possibly manlands, and have wastes.

Keeper Mirror - If you drop this early, it gives them free reign to cast scepter or to EOT spell you, then they're free during their main phase.  Not so hot.

Hulk - they're going to develop their mana base and you yours.  You might possibly match them in card drawing, but they get to pick and choose when they cast it, you suck up your mana during your own turn.  Bad to slightly-good.

Landstill - not good.

Mask - could be good, could be bad.

That should be a pretty good representation, but as far as I see it, there are too many good/competitive decks where the M.Remora is averge or worse, especially with creatures decks popping up all over the place.  The decks listed above are all decks that Top 8'd somewhere this past couple weekends (Crazy Con, Eindhoven, Dulmen, etc).  I'm skeptical that it will be anything but hit or miss against dragon as having to rely on force of will just begs to have them go duress, animate (and they have their own FoWs).

One of the main problems is sucking up mana during your mainphase leaves you relying heavily on FoW.


Bill

If you're going to use it in an aggro-control deck like Carl mentioned (drop it early, either force people not to play moxes, etc or draw 2-3 cards off it and let it go to drop a threat), I can see that working out a lot better as you'll have early pressure on them.\n\n

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wuaffiliate
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« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2003, 06:40:31 pm »

i think it would help some if arend posted telling us how he used the remora to an effective end.
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2003, 08:02:25 pm »

I think people are assuming that the Keeper playing has to maintain this card for more than 1 or 2 turns for it to be good. First turn Island + Mox + Remora GO is really strong. Second turn you pay the upkeep with the Mox and drop another Blue source for Manadrain to go online. Then, by turn 3, you can decide to let the Remora go after its done its tempo damage or given you significant card advantage.

No good deck in this format is going to be able to stomache a Remora go without breaking a sweat. As long as you don't count on Remora being your only source of card advantage, you should be fine.

3 Mystic Remora and 2 Future Sight is
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specialk
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« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2003, 12:40:38 am »

@ WU  well I did post a report with this deck here and at this tournament I was just testing the remora since I don't test much during the week and tournaments is usually were I decide whether my decks are good or not.\n\n

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