TheManaDrain.com
September 23, 2019, 05:00:07 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: GAT Post-January 1st.  (Read 6133 times)
Ultima
Guest
« on: December 12, 2003, 11:51:44 pm »

After reading about everybody's ideas and testing alot, I have come to some ideas/predictions about GAT and the new metagame.
Although there is much talk about aggro and TNT, and looking at some of the newer combo decks, I feel that after the dust clears in Jan-Feb, control will be the dominant force in T1.  Landstill, Keeper, Neo-Tog/Hulk, Scepter Control, Urphid, GAT are all amazing and I feel they will emerge the most dominant archetype.  I think this to be a very possible outcome for several reasons.  First, control was the least affected by the new restrictions.  Second, it is the archetype which can best utilize the new tools from Mirrodin.  Third, because other archetypes were affected more and to such an extent that control's bad matchups have become better. Therefore it can now better gear itself for bad matchups without really lowering its overall effectiveness alot against others.

Bearing this in mind, I set out to build a GAT that is rounded enough to where its best matchups are vs. control while still keeping it good against aggro, aggro-control, and decent against combo.  I think that after testing GAT/Neo-GAT has its biggest problems with combo.  Dragon and TPS pose the biggest problems but the addition of MD stifle really helps the matchup.

Therefore, after playing it out, this was the final product.

GAT 04

2 Pyschatog
3 Quirion Dryad*

2 Stifle*
2 Misdirection
3 Duress
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gush*
1 Future Sight
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Cunning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge


1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Stripmine
2 Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta

SB

1 Berserk
1 Naturalize
1 Coffin Purge
1 Smother
1 Fire/Ice
1 Blue Blast
1 Stifle
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Rack and Ruin
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Red Blast
2 Tormod Crypt

3 Dryads-  I really didn't want to do this but after trying it out, I found it wasn't that bad with the amount of counter backup present.  The 3 have shown to be enough with the counterbase where it is.

Gush, Stifle- These have houses against 1 thing which is why i had to include both of these and 1 backup; wasteland.  Wasteland has been rampant lately and will only get worse post-jan.  Gush was always around for land protection, but stifle was included as mana protection as opposed to denial against wasteland while helping the combo match-up.  Neither has really disappointed as of yet.

No scepter- I have tried the scepter numerous times and have finally decided against it.  Although scepter has proven itself to be amazing in other decks, it has not shown to be optimal in this one I think.  Imprinting AK is huge but I have found that it is more important to be going aggro as soon as possible than setting up for scepter.  There were just too many times when i thought it was tempo loss/distraction and thought its slots were better used with more business spells keeping the counterbase and draw base right where it is.  I did not want to change the counterbase at all and the scepter messed up the draw slots too much.  For example, if i used scepter it would have to at least 2 but needs at least 3 cunning wishs to be fully optimal.  So that meant dropping 3 draw/search slots or weakening the manabase neither of which i was happy with in the end.    

PS, I know there is already a Grow/GAT thread already but I felt it went kinda sour and wanted to start a fresh one to get all the juices flowing again.

Comments?
Logged
Ric_Flair
Guest
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2003, 10:07:08 am »

My thread went sour?  Dang it.

Seriously I like the deck but I have a few questions.

1) Why Sol Ring?  I guess this helps cast stuff like Fact or Fiction, but I am not sure if I'd run this main to begin with.

2) Why only 3 Dryads?  I think GI and Dave have all made good arguments elsewhere on the boards here to show why 4 Dryads are necessary, especially with the restriction of Gush.

3) Why no Merchant Scroll?  Personally I would run this over a Fact or Fiction any day.  It is cheaper and it tutors for an Ancestral which is > Fact or Fiction.  

4) If you are not running Scepters like GI is why not run Deed?  I understand that Stifle is good in the Dragon matchup, but Deed is good in like every other matchup on the planet.  At least 1 Deed in the main seems obligatory if you are not running Scepters.

5) If you have the red mana alread in the deck why not go GATr and add Fire/Ice to the main?  I guess that is changing the deck too much.  

I think that the deck has promise, but I would like to see more explanation of different choices.  The burden is on those who don't have tournament success to show why their choices differ from those who do.  GI has done really, really well with his build of the deck.  I think you need to show why yours is better.  Overall, though good build.
Logged
Maxx Matt
Guest
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2003, 11:07:51 am »

@Ultima: I think that the fourth Dryad is a must to add to the maindeck. If you can go "land, mox, dryad, go" often on your first turn,  I think that the deck would perform better.

I'm usually not a fan of Misdirection and I would suggest adding the missing Merchant scroll and the 4th dryad in those spots.


I played a lot against a similar version built by my teammate Siral, some weeks ago, and he decided not to play it anymore after losng a lot against Keeper and it's massive mana-denial.

He used Regrowth and a Misdirection in the slots of your 2 Stifle.  IMHO, your choice seems more apporpriate to me, for this specific meta.

If you can "feed" a Dryad a lot and win, the deck seems unbeatebable. Without ANY one of those threats in play, it seems really inappropriate for winning any match in this fast meta.\n\n

Logged
Ultima
Guest
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2003, 02:08:08 pm »

@ Ric Flair

1. I am a stern believer in the solring as a great manasource.  I think that the solring should be there for acceleration and have always missed it when playing out spells like wish, sight, FOF, and dryad/ak in the same turn which is not uncommon.
Were I too put the 4th dryad back in, the solring would go first over any draw spells which I will talk about.

2. The dryads are the backbone of GAT now this is true.  I said earlier that I really did not want to do this.  However, after testing, I felt that there were too many times when i wanted a counter or business spell and just picked up another dryad instead.  Things like double dryad on brainstorms and draw spells into more seemed like more of distractions and losses of backup then necassary wants.  Most of the time, 1 dryad does all the work and its rarely difficult to lay that guy down early(running 3) and protect her with this counterbase.

3. Merchant Scroll was cut for stifle.  After playing it, I found that i wanted a stifle so much more often in this metagame than a slow and narrow tutor.  The FOF is there for reason of mirror and other tog matchs. Or more basically, any match that also runs AK as well.  I find that the deck needs other draw spells more than AK and tutoring to give a better game 2 and 3 against these matchs.  I would rather have a FOF game 2 and 3 against control than a merchant scroll while siding out AK's for more control hate.

4. As far as deed goes, i have done more testing with that card in MD than anything else.  If you look at all my previous lists in the EX vintage forum on GAT and previous replies to other threads, you 'll see i was a big believer in deed orignally.  After testing though, i found that deed may in fact hinder the match more for you than your opponent lots of times.  Although it doesn't happen all the time, i found that most of the time you have to blow deed at around 2.  Just our damn luck that that is the unlucky number for the GAT player as well.  After doing this, matchs like Mud, Stax, Scepter control seem to be able to recover with good time.  GAT however, is too unstable for this.  There are times when i had the deed on the board and no other way of getting rid of that damn winter orb, tange wire, scepter with drain/brainstorm with a 3/3-4/4 dryad too. After blowing deed, sometimes i cannot recover fast enough to keep on the aggressive and the game starts to turn.  The GAT player almost always wants to be in a proactive control position and rarely likes the reactive position.  I would rather have more counter to the early game then have the reset for the late game where I may or may not recover as fast,and I feel that this counterbase is great against just about every matchup.

5. I tried fire/ice in the main as well.  I found that without scepter, it was too random and took away from consistency.  The red mana adds acceleration and is often only really enjoyed through cunning wish and games 2-3.  I built the manabase to specifically accomadate red as a splash color while keeping the basics to add stability.

@Maxx Matt

As stated above, those are the reasons for not going to the 4th dryad, although that is not certain.

The misdirections i find are indispensable right now in beating control and most aggro.  Misdirection is good against control and a bomb against aggro like sligh, sui, void.  It practically gives the first game for you against these decks and there is so much to be said against other aggro-control such as misdirecting a curiousity to a dryad...

As i stated the stifles are there for precisely the reason of land protection for the reason of Siral losing to manadenial.  Against Keeper, stifles really shine but that is not to say that its easy either.  Keeper is always in hands of its pilot so it could be a good match or your worst depending.
Logged
BreathWeapon
Guest
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2003, 02:36:42 pm »

GAT has nothing to offer anyone in a Jan 1st meta, IMO. It has the weakest Manabase of any T1 deck, do you want to play a fragile Manabase in an environment that is encouraging MD Bloodmoons, Stifles, 2-3 Null Rods, Multiple Gorilla Shamans and a full set of Strip/Wastes?

Now, if you put the horrendous troubles GAT's manabase has asside, take a look at the dynamics of its new match ups.

Arguably, we have 4 categories to compare GAT to,

Control
Combo
Prison
Aggro

Lets look at the first matchup. How does GAT excel at anything with Scepters in the Control match up? These new GAT decks have a diminished threat base of 3-4 Dryads and 1-3 Togs against a venue of Control decks that are increasing their threat removal and now have must Counter Threats of their own, Scepter. A lot of Control decks are now turning to MD Stifles ,2-4, and even MD Bloodmoons, 2-3, and a greater compliment of Gorilla Shamans, 2-3.

Frankly, GAT's match ups are awful vs Scepter Control. A good Scepter Parfait deck, a whopping 96$ investment, can laugh off GAT.

The Combo matchup? Dragon pretty much dominates this matchup with its superior SB options, untouched Draw Engine and the horrid lack of removal in GAT makes this a doomed match up. Even castrated Long, TPS, gives GAT major issues.

Prison? wMUD trashes GAT. Its what wMUD was made for. Chalice is such an incredible weapon vs Control, and GAT has the fewest number of answers for it other than a lucky FoW.

Aggro? GAT has an alright time vs B/R Suicide, Fish and Goblins ... but I wouldn't say its a dominating matchup.

Now, that leaves out several other important match ups like B/G Void and Stacker, which are Control/Prison and Aggro/Prison. Decks still coming into fruition like Landstill and Slavery.

Other than being a nifty deck, where is GAT dominating its match ups? The only thing that makes HULK playing is the ability to split 4 Pernicious Deeds MD and SB. GAT can't afford to rely on the Deeds.

Why would you touch a GAT deck???
Logged
Ultima
Guest
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2003, 02:51:15 pm »

@Breathweapon

I am curious to know if your reply is based on speculation or actual playtesting?

I hesitate to say that it is based on testing because if it were, then you would be unlikely to say all those things and more specific information other than "GAT is horrible" or "GAT is bad jan 1st" as these are hardly valid points or fact-based info then an impulsive rant.

Additionally, GAT has had very positive tournament results thus far if you look and my testing has shown nothing shorter either.  

If you could contribute as to why you think its bad as opposed to the simple "its crap" opinion, then you could add more knowledge to this thread then just meaningless conjecture.
Logged
BreathWeapon
Guest
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2003, 05:09:45 pm »

Sure, i'll expand on my argument.

One of the decks I ran against my test gauntlet of new decks for Jan 1st was GAT. I wanted to see how well it would hold up against the Jan 1st Decks.

I ran it against,

Iso-Keeper
U/r Scepter
3 Color Chronic
W/r Scepter Parfait
Deadbolt
Slavery
B/r Suicide
U/r Fish (Stifle)
Goblins (Null Rod)
Stacker (Ankh/Belcher)
U/w Landstill (Brainstorms)
B/U/g Dragon
Spoils-Dragon
Spoils-Mask

And the only deck it had a respectable game 1 against was Goblins.

GAT has severe problems it can't easily overcome vs Scepter Control. The first starts with the Manabase. Stifle debilitates GAT's Manabase with devestating results. Not only do you lose a significant resource early in a Land Drop, but the Stifle prevents you from playing an early Duress, Brainstorm or Dryad. This tempo loss starts to grow exponentialy for GAT, because it has to wait even longer than morst other decks to find an additional Land or Manasource. The problem is soo bad for some decks that i've seen people go back to using Land Grant so they can circumvent Stifle. The next problem comes with Gorilla Shamans running around at 2-3x in Control decks. A luck spread of Moxen can turn into a disastrous pull vs a TD Shaman. The same is also true with a Chalice for 0. Every deck now runs a full set of Strip/Wastes except combo, and the absence of Gush really hurts. Manadrain is can effectively be a dead card in GAT, and often times is, because its Manabase will never see UU in a timely fashion vs U/r Control or U/r Fish. The final nail in GAT's coffin is the extensive use of Bloodmoon MD in several archetypes. GAT loves to roll over and play dead to BM a lot.

Those are just the Manabase concerns. Now you have to get down to business and deal with the massive change in Control decks as they adopt Scepters. Control now has "Threats" GAT must deal with. Keeper is no longer a reactive deck vs the field. It can drop Scepter/Plow first turn and "Just Win" vs GAT. GAT can no longer afford to use its disruption to merely protect its own threats, it has to strain its permision base vs Scepter decks to stop the opponents game plan from developing ... and thats not what GAT was deseigned to do. Scepter decks by their inherent nature pack more removal cards than other Control decks, Fire/Ice and Plows, and with GAT decreasing its own number of threats, 1-3 Tog and 3-4 Dryads, its putting its head on a platter for Neo-Control.

Vs Prison, GAT doesn't have much of a prayer. Its only decent Meta card vs Prison is Hurkyl's ... and 2cc is the first number a Workshop player will pick vs GAT. GAT's inability to deal with Chalice can cripple it, and you have to weasle extremely hard with Stifles to resolve a Hurkyl's Recall if you even have the Mana to cast it.

The game losses from Combo should be of littler surprise. GAT doesn't have much to deal with the speed and Disruption of Spoils Mask. If its a Spoils-Mask that packs Strip/Wastes, its about nigh impossible to post even unfavorable results against Mask. Dragon has always been a weakness for the deck, and TPS gives it troubles as well.

I know GAT did well at a couple tournaments in a Long based environment, but that doesn't meen squat come Jan 1st. Long contorted Meta's soo badly in the T1 scene that almost any decent deck could stand a good shot at T8ing in the confusion. If you look ahead at Jan 1st, and get a general vibe for how decks are evolving in the absence of Long ... I think its a simple conclusion that GAT has no place in the meta.

GAT's ultimate problem isn't that its a bad deck concept in and of its self, its that its major issues after the restriction of Gush were never solved. It uses roughly the same manabase in an environment that is more concentrated on LD than ever before. Its Manacurve is still too compact to deal with Chalice, and unlike the previous environment ... the absence of MD removal and counter measures are a hinderance to the decks performance, not a strength vs the field anymore. The reasoning behind the deck no longer applies to our future meta.
Logged
Ultima
Guest
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2003, 08:28:15 pm »

I would hardly say that the manabase is the big problem.  With the influx of wastelands and stifle, yes mana denial is big but not to the point where GAT just rolls over.  I have had bloodmoons active against me, and with 2 basic islands, i simply ignore it half the time or wish into BEB.  Stifle is coming in at around 2-3 per deck and it still yet has shown itself to be as debilitating as you speak especially since i'm playing stifle as well.  When both players are playing stifle, the form of playing lands changes very much.

In response to scepters, yet again I would not agree that swords on a stick is simply game.  ChaosDjinn and I have tested the GAT vs. Scepter Control matchup many times and basically, scepter control most of the time is just out drawn and cannot cope with all the counters.  There is simply too much dependence on the scepter.  He certainly has resolved swords on a stick against me and still GAT wins the game most of the time.  

Keeper is hardly a proactive control deck simply because of scepter.  Scepter in no way spells doom for any control matchup if properly played, it is simply the nature of the control match itself.

The prison matchup is vastly improved by the addition of red.  Earlier testing in the 3-color version showed more problems because of the sole reliance on recall which you stated.  However when boarding in 2 Deeds, 1 RaR, 1 ArtMut, and 1 Natrualize, this matchup gets so much easier.  The amount of hate that red adds certainly gives GAT a better game against prison and should'nt be discounted as simply a loss by no means.  The testing speaks for itself.

Combo, like i said, is certainly the weakness that GAT has.  The MDing of stifle though greatly helps this match and I would still go so far as to say the it is not a unfavorable matchup albeit not a great one either.  The matchup against spoilsmask is vastly dependent on the draw that they get.  I found that Misdirection has much the same effect on this match as sui.  Properly timed, misdirection gives you the game.  I have yet to see any spoilsmask variants with wastelands and have therefore not tested against any.  

As far as the idea of the deck never recovering because of gush, well then i would certainly disagree.  Its true that GAT cannot simply "go off" anymore, but that hardly means its a inferior deck.  At the very least, there is something to be said for the fact that as soon as some players picked up after that and tested, made changes, then went very far with it at Waterbury, etc.  It is this very reason that other players and I have focused on making GAT a better "control" deck that has a more-control based MD component then comboish side.  By adding better control elements, GAT is much better prepared for the metagame and its threats are so very big that the deck still cannot be ignored as being aggro-control.  There is simply more meaning for the control side of that archetype for it.  

Basically, you make it sound as though the only decks that will be good in the upcoming metagame is control with LD and manadenial, which is hardly the case at all right now as the metagame is still in flux.  I simply make the prediction that control will be the most dominate archetype later but that doesn't mean that every tournament will have control decks as number 1 or that other archetypes are obsolete.  It simply means that more people will be playing control and that there will likely be a huge control aspect of the metagame that should be expected at big tournaments.  Because control is so dependent on the pilot, it is unlikely that control will rule this or any metagame totally.
Logged
BreathWeapon
Guest
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2003, 11:04:37 pm »

Alright, I think it might be time to nix the term "GAT" and simply replace it with Hulk + Dryad's. When I playtested GAT, it was with a more traditional build absent of a 4th Color or hardcounters, more threats and a reduced Manabase. Our "GAT" builds aren't remotely similar, so the results will undoubtably vary.

Now, what this discussion really seems like to me is how is HULK doing in the meta ... and how well can Hulk + Dryads do?
Hulk is a good deck, and it will win games. Nevertheless, what does adding Dryads into Hulk improve your game against incomparison to 2 MD Pernicous Deeds a Mindtwist and Intuition?
Logged
Ultima
Guest
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2003, 01:02:35 am »

I would hardly say GAT is simply Hulk plus dryads.

Hulk is a control deck that uses intuition to generate a explosion of drawing and relies on the berserk effect for the fast kill most of the time. And more lately, Hulk seems to take a more keeperish route by adding mana denial and stifle.  Hulk/Neo-Tog is very different than GAT

GAT is a aggro-control deck that uses cheap creatures to facilitate large threats through the control and synergy the deck creates.  Although, more recently these threats are more reliant on the control element to "grow."  GAT is aggressive and controlling at once and puts the opponent on a clock forcing the opponent to find answers with a wall of counters in the way and rarely kills in one turn with one swing.(although that is not unknown to happen with the right tools in hand)  

Were I to change my Hulk into GAT the card difference would be like

This is what will surely get cut most of the time
-1/2 Deed
-2 Intuition
-2 Deep Analysis
-2/3 Mana Sources
-1 Tog

then depending on the specific build itself albeit traditional Tog or Neo

-4 Wasteland
-2 Shaman
-1 Twist
-1 Cunning Wish

That's a difference of roughly 16-18 card choices.  I think that's enough of a difference to distinguish these two decks from each other.
Logged
Grand Inquisitor
Guest
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2003, 02:25:12 pm »

Unfortunately I only have time to respond to a few of the points right now:

In general I like the direction Ultima is going.

Although scepter can be a complete house, its dead-weight in the control matchup, and it feels like a crutch against everything else.

Although I don't condone fact or fiction main, other cards such as wishes, future sight, and yawgmoth's will make sol ring a fine choice...oh yeah, and its fuckin' broken.

Regarding the manabase, and GAT/Hulk's viability in the face of Bloodmoon/B2B, its simply a matter of being prepared.  Compared with Urphid or Mono-U, these builds have so many more weapons at their disposal.  I would even consider these matchups rather favorable.

I'm currently running a 3 dryad/2 tog set up as well (list below), but i can certainly see running 4 dryads, I rarely mind seeing them when I draw them.

You'll notice that my build's counter-base is very similar to Ultima's, and I've incorporated other toys to help against some decks with creatures that have been showing up in increased numbers.

I'm not sure if this is necessarily a good build, but I've consistently T8'd and the mana-base is solid:

Super-Hulk

2 Pyschatog
3 Quirion Dryad

2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Stifle
2 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Deep Analysis

2 Intuition
3 Cunning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Stripmine
1 Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
5 Polluted Delta

SB

1 Berserk
2 Coffin Purge
1 Krosan Reclamation
2 Disenchant
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Gush
2 Deep Analysis
1 Crumble
1 Blue Blast
1 Lim Dul's Vault
1 Pernicious Deed

As you can see, its basically a SuperGro-Hulk hybrid with a lot of ideas borrowed from the Darkseed lists.  The stifle's help protect your lands, and do all sorts of cool tricks on the side (including removing lots of dragon's permanents).  The swords have been pretty good, but I may drop one of the maindeck spots for mystical tutor.  Intuition hasn't been everything I hoped, but Deep Analysis has been that much and more, so they're staying for now.  Obviously I'd like to fit in some toys like future sight, but for now the curve is high enough already.  In losing red, I miss rack and ruin a lot more than REBs.  This build can outdraw almost anything, and I played a game against Keeper where I suffered four early strip effects, and still stabalized and put up a fight.

Any thoughts?
Logged
Ultima
Guest
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2003, 05:18:54 pm »

Steve, I really like your build.  I have often pondered the white splash and personally prefer it to the red.  The reason for this being that the white splash has more of a GAT feel and the red gives me the impression of Hulk vaguely and I like to keep GAT away from that all together.  It just seems that red has such great tools for this metagame.  

i have looked at what white gives GAT,namely, swords, balance, seal of cleansing, serenity, aura of silence, disenchant, while red has rack and ruin, fire/ice, REB, gorilla shaman.

The white gives GAT more general answers while the red really just improves the WMud and Workshop matchups.  I have often pondered using Pursuit of Knowledge in the white splash simply because it has such good synergy with AK, Brainstorm, and anything that draws cards miscellanous(for example, flashing back DA)

Swords does sound very good, but most of time, the only creatures i wish i had spot removal for is welders, in which case fire/ice is better.

Anyway, I will try the white splash just to see if gives makes GAT a more versatile game, but at the moment, red seems to have the necessities.
Logged
Grand Inquisitor
Guest
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2003, 09:12:46 am »

Quote
Quote The reason for this being that the white splash has more of a GAT feel and the red gives me the impression of Hulk vaguely and I like to keep GAT away from that all together

I'm not sure if I agree or not, however, the list I just posted is much closer to Hulk than any other dryad variant I've seen.

Quote
Quote i have looked at what white gives GAT...

I'm testing white for one reason: swords to plowshares.  It is excellent in today's metagame:

Dragon-WGD, Verdant Force, Xantid Swarm
Workshop-Welders, Metalworkers, Karn
Mask-Dreadnought, Xantid Swarm
GAT-Dryads
Gobbo-Everything

I've even seen TnT, Sui, and our local stompy version (don't laugh, it slaughters control).  It seems that since combo is going to be knocked down a peg due to restriction, everyone is jumping on the aggro wagon.

Quote
Quote I have often pondered using Pursuit of Knowledge

This sounds interesting, but it also sounds slow and inconsistent.  Further, isn't the draw 7 effect stifleable?

The biggest change in this version, is another step towards a more controllish strategy.  More wishes, more card draw, less combo-esque cards (future sight, fastbond).  Deep Analysis has been just awesome.  Its certainly no future sight, but the combination with Intuition is only slightly less of a momentum shift.
Logged
Ultima
Guest
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2003, 01:09:56 pm »

Quote from: Grand Inquisitor+Dec. 15 2003,09:12
Quote (Grand Inquisitor @ Dec. 15 2003,09:12)I'm testing white for one reason: swords to plowshares.  It is excellent in today's metagame:

Dragon-WGD, Verdant Force, Xantid Swarm
Workshop-Welders, Metalworkers, Karn
Mask-Dreadnought, Xantid Swarm
GAT-Dryads
Gobbo-Everything

I've even seen TnT, Sui, and our local stompy version (don't laugh, it slaughters control).  It seems that since combo is going to be knocked down a peg due to restriction, everyone is jumping on the aggro wagon.
I understand your points Steve.

The thing is, GAT has a decent game against aggro without white, so the red i think is the better splash in the end because Red improves the Prison and Control matchs.

It doesn't seem optimal to strengthen a decent match up and weaken the others that are already not as good as the other.  The 3 color version performs better against control and workshop than the white because of the more solid mana base and more consisent SB.

The red gives the GAT much better matchs against Workshop, Control, and Aggro-Control.  It seems to really come down to metagame preferences, but most the creatures you listed can be dealt with the red as well except for verdant and WGD.

There is no arguement though that Swords is amazing.  Its not difficult to argue the best spot removal card ever printed is good in this metagame.

Yes, the pursuit is stifelable and when I remembered that last night, i quickly discarded the idea, although i had already replied by then.
Logged
Grand Inquisitor
Guest
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2003, 02:17:15 pm »

Quote
Quote GAT has a decent game against aggro

This may be true of bad aggro, or bad players, however, I have found that Mask, Suicide, neo-stompy & Madness are difficult matchups.

Quote
Quote the creatures you listed can be dealt with the red as well except for verdant and WGD

Realistically you're not going to fire/ice a dryad most of the time, but the real issue is that swords is a catch-all.  It does the job of fire/ice, BEB, and naturalize, but all in one card.  

Thats why I feel comfortable with it maindeck.  The only matchups where it comes out are pure control.  I'm effectively trying to become less dependent on having to draw a cunning wish and paying 3+ the answer in order to deal with stuff that I can't counter.

As far as what the status of the archetype is, my thoughts are as follows:

Three color GAT is perfectly viable, but is less flexible than the four color versions.  Further, the fourth color (whether red or white) improves the deck's difficult matches: workshop and hate-aggro.

While there is a general consensus on some recent developments (AK's over cantrips, less togs), there are a number of issues that have not been resolved conclusively:

1) Which fourth color, red or white?

2) Does Future Sight (and then possibly Fastbond) belong?

3) Does Intuition (and then probably Deep Analysis) belong?

4) What is the optimal counterbase given the other maindeck choices?  Duress, Misdirection and Stifle are all options.

5) Does Isochron Scepters belong?

While issues 1 & 4 seem to be very metagame dependent, the other issues have serious consequences to how the deck plays.  People who like a more combo-esque build Future Sight is appealing.  For those who are more controll-ish the deck begins to look more and more like Hulk.  While it seems that most people have written off Isochron Scepter as sub-optimal in T1 in general, I still see a lot of potential.

Hopefully I'm not broadening the topic too much for the purpose of this thread.  However, I feel GAT has so much potential in the new metagame, and it still has very little identity in regards to an established decklist.
Logged
Dante
Guest
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2003, 04:07:02 pm »

Part of the reason that GAT had such an easy time with Aggro was being able to drop a Tog and ignore a lot of their creatures (as well as growing a giant Dryad).  Dropping down to 2 Togs and 3 Dryads seems to be fine for control et al, but if Agro seems to be a big problem (which for you two it may not be), maybe consider adding the 3rd Tog back in....just a suggestion.

Bill
Logged
David Hernandez
Guest
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2003, 04:19:35 pm »

Hi G.I.,

you're running Intuitions now?  there has been discussion in the Basic Forum about this, and i just slammed them as unnecessary...now i have to re-think my existence...

Smile

i will post a link in the Basic Forum to this thread, so that they are aware of the change to your decklist.

i advocated that AK's were enough on their own because they replace Opt or Sleight of Hand, and as such don't require Intuition to fetch them.

Also, why run the Stifle's in the main deck now? have you changed the strategy so that now Stifle is used proactively, rather than as a defense vs. Combo?

You listed "5 Polluted Delta".  I know you probably meant 4 along with 1 Flooded Strand.

another item that surprises me is the running of only 3 Dryad's (i know you mentioned that you think 4 is also o.k.).  

Your deck seems a little unorthodox (as far as GAT goes), and seems much more "Keeper-ish".

i find the following build to be very strong (this is Ben Taraskevich's build, which is almost identical to mine except for the items i list next to his choices):

2 Psychatog
4 Quirion Dryad

4 Counterspell (I run Mana Drain for Cunning Wish when i use 3 Cunning Wishes, otherwise)
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
3 Duress

4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Gush
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

1 Vampric Tutor (I run a 3rd Cunning Wish or a 3rd MisDirection)
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
2 Cunning WIsh
1 Demonic Tutor

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Regrowth

1 Pernicious Deed

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox EMerald
1 Mox Saphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

SB:
2 Naturalize
1 Annul
1 Zuran Orb
2 Coffin Purge
2 Null Rod
1 BEB
1 Stifle
1 Berserk
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Smother

In your build, it looks to me like you could drop the following:

1 Deep Analysis
2 Intuition

...and then add 3 Isochron Scepters.
  
After that, you could drop:

2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Stifle

...in favor of 4 Fire/Ice.

Dryads would get very large very fast, you would have a defense by way of Fire/Ice, and the draw engine would be enhanced at the same time.

I know you said that you used Scepters in the past...what happened?  it seems to me that the changes i just mentioned would make this deck stronger, so i'm really curious about what you found out.

--Dave.\n\n

Logged
Grand Inquisitor
Guest
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2003, 04:23:01 pm »

Quote
Quote Part of the reason that GAT had such an easy time with Aggro was being able to drop a Tog and ignore a lot of their creatures (as well as growing a giant Dryad).  

One of the biggest differences in the aggro matchups is that current GAT has a more difficult time establishing its mana-base now that Gush is gone.  For certain builds, an opposing double strip effect is game over.  Additionally, our draw engine is no longer free, so early game tempo is spent improving hand quality instead of dropping blockers.
Logged
Ultima
Guest
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2003, 04:43:43 pm »

Quote from: Grand Inquisitor+Dec. 15 2003,14:17
Quote (Grand Inquisitor @ Dec. 15 2003,14:17)This may be true of bad aggro, or bad players, however, I have found that Mask, Suicide, neo-stompy & Madness are difficult matchups.

Realistically you're not going to fire/ice a dryad most of the time, but the real issue is that swords is a catch-all.  It does the job of fire/ice, BEB, and naturalize, but all in one card.  

Thats why I feel comfortable with it maindeck.  The only matchups where it comes out are pure control.  I'm effectively trying to become less dependent on having to draw a cunning wish and paying 3+ the answer in order to deal with stuff that I can't counter.

As far as what the status of the archetype is, my thoughts are as follows:

Three color GAT is perfectly viable, but is less flexible than the four color versions.  Further, the fourth color (whether red or white) improves the deck's difficult matches: workshop and hate-aggro.

While there is a general consensus on some recent developments (AK's over cantrips, less togs), there are a number of issues that have not been resolved conclusively:

1) Which fourth color, red or white?

2) Does Future Sight (and then possibly Fastbond) belong?

3) Does Intuition (and then probably Deep Analysis) belong?

4) What is the optimal counterbase given the other maindeck choices?  Duress, Misdirection and Stifle are all options.

5) Does Isochron Scepters belong?

While issues 1 & 4 seem to be very metagame dependent, the other issues have serious consequences to how the deck plays.  People who like a more combo-esque build Future Sight is appealing.  For those who are more controll-ish the deck begins to look more and more like Hulk.  While it seems that most people have written off Isochron Scepter as sub-optimal in T1 in general, I still see a lot of potential.

Hopefully I'm not broadening the topic too much for the purpose of this thread.  However, I feel GAT has so much potential in the new metagame, and it still has very little identity in regards to an established decklist.
There are several things that come to mind about your questions, Steve

I certainly agree that the dependence on cunning wish for answers really should be lower. However, it seems that the deck is too slot tight to warrant maindeck removal and what I believe to be the optimal counterbase.

I think the GAT optimal counterbase should look like this:

2 stifle
2 misdirection
3 duress
4 force
4 drain

This counterbase seems to take care of the control, combo and prison matchups fairly well.  So far in my testing, I have found suicide and sligh to be very easy.  Mask is very dependent on the draw they receive.  It is in Sui/Void and Mask that Misdirection is a bomb and is what wins the game most of the time.

I definitely understand the dificulty with Madness and Stompy however, they are certainly not what I consider favorable.

It is very difficult because GAT with white has such problems with the Workshop matchs and loses alot of its potency on the control matchs although its not nearly as bad as the previous.

Therefore, my thoughts are

1. Dependent on the Meta: White- Aggro/ Red- Control/Prison

2. Personally, I always play Future Sight. Its too gamebreaking and is univerisally amazing regardless of the splash.  It wins in any meta which warrants its slot IMO

3. As far as Intuition, I really don't feel that it is optimal in GAT because although it gives a great "burst" of cards, GAT I think needs consistent drawing and not the quick jolt that intuition gives.  Some argue that it is a last resort tutor but I think that if tutoring is the case, there are more consistent choices than that.

4. As stated above.

5. I have talked about this previously many times, and I still maintain that it is decent but sub-optimal in GAT.
Logged
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.139 seconds with 18 queries.