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Author Topic: How essential is Time Walk?  (Read 5389 times)
pernicious dude
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« on: December 15, 2003, 01:04:40 pm »

I've spent a long time playing Fish,
and lately I'm up into Landstill.
I've never played Keeper or BBS,
and only dabbled in UrPhid.

I can see where Time Walk pushes Yawgmoth's Will way over the top,
allowing you tap out and just go nuts,
because you're going to untap again before anything else happens.
It also allows you to effectively give your Tog haste.

My question (and it's honestly a question, I don't have a position)
is how important is it in decks that don't run black?

It rarely gets countered.
It develops your mana base.
It cantrips.
It untaps Conclaves and lets Rootwater Hunter go in for two cards.
It untaps a fresh Nev's Disk.

Anything else, and is that enough?
In U/r decks in general, should it be replaced by more of a business spell?
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greedo
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« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2003, 01:36:56 pm »

I believe if you own a time walk it is essential to play it in those builds.

The extra attack phase alone proves its merit, the fact that its never a dead card should make it unquestionable.
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PucktheCat
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« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2003, 01:41:33 pm »

The main reason it gets played is that it is the only 0cc cantrip in the game. (not strictly true, but you get my point)

The fact that you actually have to have two mana available to cast this is the only real disadvantage to the card and that is more than made up for by the fact that it turns one of your lands in hand into a mox.  The other benefits are just gravy.

It is much better in Fish than in many other decks because Fish uses the little know "creature" permanent type and even some obscure "enchant creature" things as well.

Leo\n\n

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jpmeyer
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badplayermeyer
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« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2003, 01:42:33 pm »

It seems awfully important in Keeper for getting you wins through Decree where your opponent might not expect them.
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Shock Wave
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« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2003, 01:45:42 pm »

I can't really say how important it is in other U/R control decks, however it is an absolute MUST in Landstill. Here's why:

- provides an extra land drop
- allows for Disk + Walk play, which is extremely important
- allows you to deal a ridiculous amount of damage with your land
- allows for extra draws with LOA

Because it is so easy to protect LOA with Landstill, it's not a trivial point. If I draw LOA against control decks, I'm most probably going to win, regardless of whether they have a Wasteland or not.
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walking dude
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« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2003, 02:37:36 pm »

The smaller your deck, the higher the likelihood of drawing your broken cards.  Thatís why 61 card decks are to be avoided. Time walk is like playing a 59 card deck. It makes every other card in your deck better even if it did nothing at all. But its better than that since it lets you get an extra land drop or an extra attack phase. If your deck can support it not running it seems crazy. The only possible exception I could see would be some storm build maybe, and even then walk is still good.
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specialk
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« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2003, 02:53:05 pm »

Quote
Quote It rarely gets countered.
It develops your mana base.
It cantrips.
It untaps Conclaves and lets Rootwater Hunter go in for two cards.
It untaps a fresh Nev's Disk.

That seems good enough already
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Dante
Guest
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2003, 04:00:42 pm »

In things like the control mirror, it's very good as generally whoever can establish their mana-base better and faster has a big advantage.  Most of the time people won't waste a drain or FoW on an opening of land, mox, timewalk or a 2nd turn timewalk, unless they want to drop something juicy off drain during their mainphase.

Bill

That being said, it's probably the power card that budget players don't miss that often - if I were starting from scratch and buying power, I would buy ancestral, lotus, and most of the moxes before time walk.\n\n

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thorme
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« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2003, 04:35:06 pm »

I agree with most replies...if you're playing blue, run it.

The only exception I have in my collection of decks is that I don't run it in my current version of Stax, simply because it can occasionally be a dead card given its lack of synergy with Smokestack and Tangle Wire.  Even here, it was a cut that required some thought.
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PhOeNiX
Guest
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2003, 06:27:26 pm »

Many reasons have already been posted that I agree with.

Another point is that you can attempt to force out a spell during your main phase; if a counterwar ensues, both players will probably end up using a lot of mana over it. If you have a Time Walk at your disposal, you can have another untap step which would be absolutely huge at this point, with an opponent usually tapped out. This leaves you open to better protect a key spell.
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dicemanX
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« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2003, 06:42:32 pm »

One exception for Time Walk is certain blue-based combo decks. It was not essential in long.dec, and got cut for more powerful and meaningful effects.

I'm starting to think that it should be cut from Dragon as well, although Rich and I have to discuss this point. In Dragon, Walk can sometimes meaningfully accelerate your land development, and on occasion it can allow you to draw more cards if you have Squee-Bazaar going. However, a lot of the time it just ties up your mana for the turn and acts as a pure cantrip only.
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CrazyCarl
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« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2003, 06:51:49 pm »

Quote from: dicemanX+Dec. 15 2003,21:42
Quote (dicemanX @ Dec. 15 2003,21:42)One exception for Time Walk is certain blue-based combo decks. It was not essential in long.dec, and got cut for more powerful and meaningful effects.

I'm starting to think that it should be cut from Dragon as well, although Rich and I have to discuss this point. In Dragon, Walk can sometimes meaningfully accelerate your land development, and on occasion it can allow you to draw more cards if you have Squee-Bazaar going. However, a lot of the time it just ties up your mana for the turn and acts as a pure cantrip only.
Most builds of Long cut Walk, this is true, but they were wrong to do so.  The fact remains that it still a) makes your deck smaller and b) accelerates your mana base, and it allowed for stupid things like ritual, necro, walk etc.

As for cutting it in Dragon, I don't claim to have any experiance with the deck, but it seems to me that it should be even more insane with Bazaar than it would be with Library.
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dicemanX
Guest
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2003, 07:08:00 pm »

Quote
Quote ...and b) accelerates your mana base, and it allowed for stupid things like ritual, necro, walk etc.

As for cutting it in Dragon, I don't claim to have any experiance with the deck, but it seems to me that it should be even more insane with Bazaar than it would be with Library.

The argument is, however, that such situations usually mean you are doing very well to begin with. If you have Squee/Bazaar going, then sure TW is fantastic. But TW doesn't help get you to those situations, it helps you exploit them even further instead. A sort of "win more" scenario.

The main issue to me is this:

Quote
Quote The fact remains that it still a) makes your deck smaller

After all, what could be wrong with running a "0-cc cantrip"?  Well, it's not so simple. TW affects mulliganing decisions, as it could be a "placeholder" for a key card which you are not allowed to see when assessing your initial hand. Also, TW affects the mana source:spell ratio. It's makes a slight difference. You can argue that it makes the same kind of difference, percentage-wise, as running a 61st card or cutting a mana source for one additional business card.

There is one final issue with TW: it is a Sorcery that can potentially walk into a Drain for loss of tempo in Dragon. If you're casting a TW you're probably not doing much else because the Dragon deck is so mana light; you might want to save that mana for an instant-speed spell instead like Vault, Intuition, or Necromancy.

Anyways, its a complicated issue. I'm not sold yet on TW's removal from Dragon, but I'm suggesting it as an option based on certain reasons. One of those reasons is that there are a few cards that I *want* to include in the main deck, but there is just nothing to cut.

EDIT: Minor point, but TW in long.dec could theoretically reset your storm count if you ran short on mana when trying to go off, so its not totally without any downsides.\n\n

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PhOeNiX
Guest
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2003, 07:13:08 pm »

Quote from: dicemanX+Dec. 15 2003,19:08
Quote (dicemanX @ Dec. 15 2003,19:08)One of those reasons is that there are a few cards that I *want* to include in the main deck, but there is just nothing to cut.
That was also my little dilemma as well - the deck is quite tight
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Ultima
Guest
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2003, 10:46:06 pm »

I don't as much about it as far Dragon is concerned.  

However TW is very good in Keeper in my opinion at gaining tempo and putting yourself in a better control position.  TW in the early game allows manadrain to go on line a turn sooner which is priceless and in the late game allows the Keeper player to fully maximize their control over the game or gain it back.

While TW is great in Keeper, I can tell you TW is fucken INSANE in GAT.  With Dryads, TW is like a psuedo- berserk that still keeps your guy alive while allowing more spells to get played for even more damage.  There are so many times when I tutor for a Walk instead of Recall and deal something like 15-20 damage combined from both turns.  Its insane.  

Time Walk-  Keeper- Great
                 GAT-    Indispensible
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