4 Color Keeper

[Gilindon]

Alright I will try this again since my Kobold Academy deck was not deemed playable in tournament T1   

Therefore, I would like some advice regarding the 4 Color Keeper deck I plan on using at least one of the T1 tournies at GenCon later this summer.

First off, I am playing 4 Color Keeper because I found green pretty ineffective and in some case counterproductive to my needs.  (Thanks, Milton!   )

Secondly, my 4 Color Keeper will be facing a very diverse metagame at GenCon.  Last year, you name it, you saw it there.  It was crazy, but fun!  I fully expect a mostly fully powered environment and I know that to place I will eventually have to play Milton's Bloodmoon Keeper.  That being said, here is the deck.

Mana: 28
7 SoLoMoxen
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria

Counters:  10
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Counterspell
1 Misdirection

Card Drawing: 4
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Jayemdae Tome (I really dislike Braingeyser in this deck)

Search:  4
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

Removal: 6
1 Abyss
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Fire/Ice
1 Balance
1 Dismantling Blow

Utility: 4
1 Timewalk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist
1 Zuran Orb

Creatures: 4
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Morphling

SB: 15
4 Red Elemental Blasts
2 Dwarven Miner
1 Moat
2 Swords to Plowshare
1 Disenchant
2 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Circle of Protection: Black
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Timetwister

Ok, the first question that I want to pose to you is this:  In expectation of a fully powered environment, is 2 maindeck Shamans warranted?  I believe it is but I want your opinion on the matter.

Secondly, do I need more spot removal maindeck?  If so, what do I cut?  I would probably add either a Swords or another Edict.

Thirdly, the SB could use some tweaking.  The weakest card is Timetwister which I added for Worldgorger and Replenish decks.  Also, should the Disenchant become an Aura Fracture for Oath?

Finally, I have played this same incarnation for almost a year now and have been very satisfied.  Once I made the decision to remove green, I have never looked back and have yet to miss it.  Also, my mana base is very, very stable and I rarely have problems with it.

[goldfish]

Hi,

I play a very similar deck, and 2 Mox monkeys can be very good it all depends a bit of your environment. I'm actually playing with 2 of them and 2 miners... Just because in my environment people play fully powered or atleast with all non-basic land decks... But you can also go for 1 miner, 1 shaman maindeck, it's pretty strong. My keeper is 5 color though...

Kind regards
Goldfish (just newly arrived on the board)

[Bastian]

I think the deck looks fine. There's just one thing I'd change...

I usually don't play with more than 4 wastelands/strip and so I think you can cut 1 wasteland for an undiscovered paradise. Otherwise everything seems ok!

[jpmeyer]

With the loss of Sylvan Library I would strongly consider adding the Braingeyser back to the deck over one of the Gorilla Shaman OR adding Timetwister over the Vampiric Tutor.  With 5 Wastes and 2 Shaman it can be very easy to gain better board position over your opponent which is where Timetwister really shines.

Also, Scrying Glass is usually better than Jayemdae Tome since it's cheaper to cast, cheaper to use, and has a nifty added ability against control, which is where you need it anyway

[Shade]

Congrats on the removal of green.  I've recently realized that Regrowth/Sylvan alone isn't worth supporting the color, especially with no room for MD Tropicals and no good SB options.

With your decklist, I'd simply make the following changes:

REMOVE:
1 Counterspell
1 Jayemdae Tome
1 Wasteland

ADD:
1 Braingeyser
1 Timetwister
1 Undiscovered Paradise

But, that's just due to my playstyle.

[goldfish]

I'd never play with Twister in Keeper, I think its every control does NOT stand for... The randomness of a twister is too high, remember you're trying to gain control of the game and a twister is not the card to do that... I keep twister for my Combo decks.

[Milton]

It's very simmilar to my deck.  Removing green really makes a big difference.  Here are my questions and comments:

1.  Are you playing with one Edict, one Fire/Ice and one Swords becuase you think it is the most versitile, or because it's trendy?  I tried it, but I always drew the wrong spell for the occasion.  I would draw Fire/Ice against Ophidian and Diabolic Edict when my opponent had a Morphling and a Gorilla Shaman in play.  Why not three Swords?  You have the white to support it.  Or two Swords and a Edict?  Personally, I'm running three Edicts and a Fire/Ice in my GenCon keeper, taking me up to four creature spot removal cards and giving me some cards to sideboard out against mono blue or Keeper.

2.  I like two Gorilla Shaman.  There was a lot of power there last year and we can't forget the Cursed Scrolls.  Against Red it's a great idea to hold a Shaman in your hand until they cast a Scroll and then cast your Shaman on your turn, killing the scroll as it kills your Shaman.  Also, running two Shaman provides you with some more sideboard flexibility agianst aggro decks.  Those are two easy cards to take out against most aggro decks and mono-blue, which allows you to side-in your hate.  Last year I had two Gorillas main deck and one in the sideboard and I just crushed Acadmey with them.  

3.  Never, never, never remove Vampiric Tutor.  I have no idea why that card has lost favor on BDomnia, but it doesn't deserve it.  In almost every case it is superior to Mystical Tutor.

4.  Braingeyser v. Tome is your preference.  I prefer the Tome becuase it works well under Bloodmoon.

5.  Your mana base looks damn solid.  Good job.  Undiscovered Paradise is a gimmic to beat the Back to Basics, but Red Blasts will also do the job nicely, but if you would feel more comfortable with a UP, then go for it.  I personally never use them.

6.  You need to look a little more at your sideboard.  You have two Swords, one Moat and a Edict in there.  Under what conditions could you immagine sideboarding in all of those cards?  What about Masitcore?  Masticore in the sideboard provides you with some good versitality.  I run one.  Masticore could easily replace the Moat.  Or, you could run a Masticore and another Abyss in the sideboard, allowing you to take out your two Shaman and replace them with Masticore and Abyss against aggro.  And, there was a ton of aggro at Gen Con last year.  Also, I'm thinking about running two disenchant effects in my board to go along with the Blow in my deck.

7.  Lastly, how would you sideboard agianst Keeper?  Would you put in your four Red Blasts and two Dwarven Miners?  If so, what would you take out to fill these six slots?  Before you go to the Con, you should write up every deck you can possibly plan on facing.  You should think of every card you would side-in and side-out and write down your best options and bring that with you during your tournaments.  I personally plan on facing and develop my sideboard for these decks, in this order:
     1. Keeper  
     2. Mono blue
     3. Sligh and Burn
     4. Mono black variants
     5. High capacity Zoo and other Agro
     6. Academy and Tubbies

I gotta go to dinner with the wife now.  Let me know what you decide to do.

I feel this thread can produce many insightful posts. MOVED \n\n

[FeverDog]

I can understand not running Sylvan because it increases your committment to green significantly, often forcing you to add a Tropical and thereby hurting your mana base, however i cannot understand why you wouldnt run Regrowth. You do not have to change your mana base one bit to run it, although i would like to see an UP in there but thats not strictly because i think Regrowth should be in, i just think with 6 green sources you could easily fit it in.

As for Tome over Geyser, i dont see the logic in that. At 4 mana, you will need to activate your Tome twice just to match a two-point Geyser you could have cast for the same amount, not to mention that you cant Mystical for Tome or pitch it to FoW/MisD. All these factors combined makes running Tome over Geyser questionable, if you really insist on running it i suggest you remove a Shaman for it instead.

[Sylvester]

Milton: First, I'd like to thank you for producing a post that i loved reading

Gilindon, I don't really play keeper, but i have a few questions on your decklist:

1. On anti-creature cards: Why do you have The Abyss MD and Moat in the SB, when Moat is almost always superior to Abyss? if it is because you can't always get WW in time, then, why have it in the SB? As for your other removal: the only reason to play Fire/Ice is for weenies, AKA creatures that cost 1. For those, i believe keg works just as well. The only aggro deck that wouldn't be too affected by keg is SuiB, which happens to be your worst enemy. After a keg for 1 or 0, it should only have creatures that you would have StP'ed, so i believe you could go with 1 Keg, 2 Edicts.

2. Milton, I think you wrote twice that a certain configuration was better because it allowed for easier SBing. Now, i really don't understand that argument. It amounts to saying that having a bad maindeck is good because you can then change it to the optimal configuration more easily. If you consider your deck like 75 cards from which you choose 60, it becomes obvious that such a reasonning is highly illogical. The best thing to do is obviously to have the best maindeck possible given what you expect, and have a SB so you can then have the configuration you want against the msot important decks.

3. I believe the idea behind SBing Vampiric out in the mirror is that it cost 2 lives(½ a card under sylvan, 2 with scrying), AND is even more card disadvantage. Though, i believe the idea is to SB out all the mirage tutors, so it's not like Mystical was prefered over vampiric.

4. Tome works well under blood moon, but once you have blood moon out, you should be almost winning, no? You should only need blood moon against keeper(well, multicolour control), and when control has no other mana source than 5 moxen and UP, it is hard for it to win. So, casting tome under Blood Moon would simply amount to a waste of time. I believe you'd need braingeyser before you have cast blood moon, or when you're not going to cast it. Not when it's already on the board. However, that isn't important, since Gilligan does not use blood moon, and when blood moon is out of the equation, I believe Geyser is definitely superior.

Short summary: Have you tried Keg? Making the MD less tight just because it's worst so it's easier to SB does not seem sound. And braingeyser is superior to tome in gilligan's deck. However, i have never (well, maybe once) played Keeper, so i'd take that advice with more than a grain of NaCl

[Siral]

I'm not very happy of some choices.
Though i think that green is still necessary in Keeper (Sylvan is a match-winner vs control and Compost in sideboard is a very good choice vs black decks), it's possible to play a 4 color.

Two or three cards in your list can be changed to improve the deck.

Seal of Cleansing over the Dismantling Blow.

Even if Dismantling is a good card (i played it for about 2 months) Seal is better cause:
1)Is not misdirectionable
2)Cost only 2 mana
3)Vs Mono U Back to Basics you can cast it in first turns and Mono U dont want to start an early counter war for it, while if BTB is already in play, trying to use Dismantling cause a long counterwar and Mono U is better to counter.

Vampiric Tutor: it's not a must in this deck. You have already Demonic, Merchant and Mystical to find best spells in your deck (Ancestral, Fiction, Mind Twist, Yawgmoth's). I dont see Time Walk in your decklist...i hope it's an error or you dont have it, cause time walk is the best card to cast under yawgmoth's will (yawgmoth's with ancestral and time walk it's like a combo )

2 Gorilla shaman can be too much. Since this deck suffers by Mono U and Heavy Aggro Deck (Like Sligh with PoP maindeck) i'd like dont have 2 mox monkey in my hand in first turn

Replace it with something like Teferi's Response (7 cards in your hand library of alexandria in play, wasteland on it, you tap library to draw in response cast mystical tutor and fetch teferi's.....it's so funny) or Powder Keg or Masticore or Trade Routes.

I'm also trying to play Chainer's Edict over the Diabolic. Infact for instant removal you have Sword and Fire/Ice, but Chainer's Edict is card advantage vs another control deck since he must counter it 2 times

Sideboard:

Aura Fracture over Disenchant. No Comment
2 Blue Elemental Blast: I try to remove them from the sideboard....but PoP and Blood Moon have punished me
1 Spiritual Focus or 1 Compost(also if you dont play green it's not a problem cast it since you have 6 green mana in your deck 4 city mox and lotus) : Those are the cards vs the black deck.
1 Ivory Mask: it's not easy to cast due to the fact that requires WW but shut off discards, burn, Pandeburst (Pandemonium cant target you ) and other things.
1 Jester's Cap or 2 Rootwater thief: I dont like the opponent's Morphling and you?

Vs Worldygouger the best cards possibile are:
Tormord's Crypt, Sword and try to counter their entomb. Jester's Cap and Rootwater thief can help if this deck start slowly.

[goldfish]

Milton,

To come back to UP, it also has great synergy with Library of Alexandria...

[Milton]

I wonder where Gilindon is?

Anyway, we are talking about a very general metagame here; GenCon.  We can't forget that.  We are not talking about a specific metagame with tons of Keeper and very little aggro.  Last year at GenCon I was beaten down by Zoo decks in the last two rounds.  Now, I know everyone thinks Zoo is dead.  But, a first turn Serindib and Gorilla Shaman followed by a second turn Wasteland will change your mind about spot removal very quickly.  Three spot removal cards is not enough.  Agro can selectively kill your mana with Wastelands and Gorilla Shaman.  A good aggro player will kill your white mana when they want to avoid Plow, kill the black mana when they want to aviod Edict and kill the red mana when they want to avoid Fire.  This can easily be done in the early game when Keeper is trying to establish a mana base and Agro is beating it down with Shaman and Serindib.

Also, my biggest complaint about Keeper is that Keeper decks are just too tight.  There is no room to sideboard.  You don't need sub-optimal cards in your maindeck.  Four spot removal cards are not sub-optimal, especially with all of the Ophidians running around.

As for the Geyser v. Tome argument, I would say that it is a wash.  I prefer Tome in the face of land destruciton and aggro.  It is often the case that you find yourself with three wastelands and a mox or two in play against your aggro opponent after they have destroyed your colored mana.  In that case, an active Tome is great.  I prefer the Tome to the Geyser, but I can see the other side and I would say it's a matter of preference.

I still say 2 Shaman, but one could be relplaced with a Keg for more control.  Although there was a lot of power at GenCon last year.

As for Vampiric, it is the best tutor next to Demonic.  Merchant Scroll wont find you a ton of cards that are necessary in most games.  There are very few cases in which Mystical is superior to Vampiric as well.  I have no idea how the trend away from Vampiric began, but it is not a good trend.    

Terifi's Response?  I don't like it, but I never had luck with it.  I would say that for a general metagame it's a sideboard card at best, but if you have Mishra's in your deck then it is great.  The Library, Mystical, Response to Wasteland is way to situational to make the inclusion of Response in a general metagame a good idea, in my opinion.

Undiscovered Paradise?  Again, preference.

Regrowth?  I dropped it over a year ago and  I haven't missed it one bit.

Dismantling Blow manideck, Seal in the sideboard.  Aura Fracture?  Why is Aura Fracture good?  It works well against Back to Basics, but BtoB seems to be less common since Mono Blue was nutered with the restriction of Force of Will.  Anyway, Red Blast is a more versitle way of dealing with BtoB.  Other than that, what enchantments do you want to kill?

Ivory Mask in the sideboard?  I like it, but if you run it you have to run Tome over Braingeyser.  Also, its casting cost can be difficult to play early game against Black or Red.  If you can survive into the mid game against those decks you will most likley win anyway.

As for the Bloodmoon, well it's a win card to be sure.  An early turn Bloodmoon, followed by a Gorilla Shaman will lock down Keeper in an unbelievable way.  It is not a late game card.  To play Bloodmoon, I have to run 5 basic lands, sacrifice Green and minimize White in my deck, but I can devestate other Keeper decks.  It's not for everyone, but it works for me.

[Siral]

Mono U deck is not dead...they cannot use 4 Fact or Fiction, but still use the draw cards of the keeper, plus 4 ophidian plus 4 accumulated knowledge.

I use Ivory Mask in side cause the mono red player start to play Barbarian Ring that are in not a so late game (i talk about 5-6 turn) 2 sure damage
With Ivory Mask you make useless all his bolts, cursed and ring. 1 Card for 12-20 of his.

However i countine to repeat and repeat. Keeper is the most common choice in a random metagame. if you wanna have good result in all the tournament you play, play the keeper. If is full powered and played by a good player it's always a top 8 deck at least. You can also win but if you wanna win all the tournament you play, you must know the metagame and bring the deck that kill that metagame.

[Gilindon]

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond.  I have taken a long time to read through all of the replies and identified the major issues that need to be addressed.  I would like thank all you for your comments regarding my deck.  All constructive criticism and geniune theoretical arguments are appreciated and encouraged.  I will begin by answering some of these issues and offering my justifications for some of my card choices.  Secondly, I will reveal my SB decisions for the major decks I expect to see at GenCon.  For those of you attending, you get the inside scoop into how I will SB against your deck.    

This is a very long post, so bear with me.

Major Issues

1.)   Jayemdae Tome

  A. Braingeyser vs. Jayemdae Tome.  This seems to be a major bone of contention regarding my deck.  In fact, this argument is an offshoot of the greater post-Fact or Fiction restriction debate:  What best replaces Fact or Fiction in blue-based control?  Since we were allowed unrestricted access to Fact or Fiction for such a relatively brief time (in the scope of the game's existence), I believe that this is really an older argument of preference.  Braingeyser does have benefits the Tome cannot match, but it also has weaknesses too.  It is more explosive than the Tome, it is pitchable, and it can be searched for with Mystical Tutor.  However, in my deck the Tome serves some valuable functions that better fit my style of play.  We are in a era of T1 when disenchant abilities are seriously lacking and the most widely used artifact removal (Shaman and Kegs) take too long to seriously threaten the Tome and render it entirely ineffective.  The Tome is a great sink for Mana Drains mana, especially in the early game when Keeper is not yet prepared to protect and support a Morphling.  Also, Tome allows for mana sink later in the game.  The Tome is also a consistent card drawing mechanism in a deck that survives through card advantage.  Without the Tome in Keeper, it is forced to rely soley on the Library (for constistency), which is highly vulnerable to non-basic hate.  Whereas, as I mentioned above, many control decks are skimping on fast disenchant abilities (my own included) allowing the Tome a greater chance of influencing the game.  The Tome may be boring but I am a firm believer in a consistent method of card advantage in control deck.  Tome provides that consistency.  It is especially nice mid game during my opponent EOT phase.  I find its importance amplified by the absence of green in my Keeper.  The Sylvan and Regrowth provide other Keeper decks with more consistency, I use the Tome to help offset that loss.  These reasons coupled with Braingeyser's status as a sorcery and its one-shot spell status make the Tome much more attractive in my deck.

  B. Scrying Glass vs. Jayemdae Tome.  Against control Scrying Glass provides Keeper with a distinct advantage.  It allows you to assess your opponent and may net you a card as well.  However, it is the inconsistency of the draw and its relative ineffectiveness against aggro that I find puts it in the category of a SB card.  As mentioned above, the Tome may be boring but it is consistent.  The Tome can be effective against both aggro and control because its purpose is the same.  Because its consistency and strength against all deck types, I feel that the Tome is a better maindeck choice for an unknown metagame.  However, I will consider a slot in the SB.


2.) Undiscovered Paradise

This also ties into the suggestion that I should cut out a Wasteland to add UP.  Personally, I have never really gotten on board with UP.  I know that is indeed very effective against Back to Basics, but I don't like messing with my land drops.  As I stated in the original post, I never have problems with this mana base.  For the first time in years, I don't feel the need to constantly tweak my mana base.  Some have suggested that a Wasteland should be cut for UP.  The addition of the 4th Wasteland has been relatively new (about 6 months) and I feel my deck is better because it.  The additional Wasteland has seemed to increase the number of degenerate mana denying draws.  With 2 Shamans and 5 Strips maindeck, mana denial is my most consistent advantage over my opponents (vs. card advantage, creature removal).  However, if I were to add a single green card, I would cut a Shaman and a Wasteland for that card and a UP.


3. Spot Removal

In hindsight, I guess this is the advice I was really fishing for.  In response to Milton's inquery, I run my current configuration of 1 Swords, 1 Edict, and 1 Fire/Ice because it is the most consistent.  I have a silver bullet for any given situation.  However, that being said, I believe this is weakest part of my deck.  I feel that 3 spot removal cards is a little light and I don't believe that swapping Chainer's Edict for Diabolic Edict will help.  Swords seems to always be the best answer, followed by the versatility of Fire/Ice.  Diabolic Edict sits dead in my hand in many games but I am averse to removing all copies to the SB for fear Morphling and all of the other untargetable nasties.  So now I sit at a loss of what to do.  My current configuration is more the result of indecision than of sound theory.  

Milton, why are you choosing to run 3 Edicts main deck?  Judging from last year's metagame?  I know we saw alot of mono-blue, but there also was a ton of sligh, white weenie, and other weenie-based derivatives.  Wouldn't 2 Edicts and 2 Fire/Ice serve that meta call more effectively?  Personally, I think we may see some more Tubbies this year.  Also, I guarantee there will be Worldgorger decks running around reaking havoc.  Swords is a nice answer to those decks.

Would 2 Edicts and 1 Fire/Ice maindeck with 2 Swords and 1 Fire/Ice in the SB be a better fit for this kind of environment?  It will provide more flexibility in boarding.  

Finally, what your thoughts on running 1 Fire/Ice, 1 Diabolic Edict, and 1 Cunning Wish maindeck with 2 Swords and 1 Edict in the SB?  Most people are staunchly against this idea given the loss of momentum.  However, its flexibility has its appeal especially with Disenchants and REBs in the SB too.

Until I get some solid arguments either way, I guess I will keep my spot removal as is, although I really, really, want 4 spot removal spells!  I would probably cut out the Zuran Orb and move it to SB to make it fit.

4.) Side Board
Milton is right to question my SB which in retrospect is quite suspect.  I found my original SB and I will stick closer to that design.

4 REBs
2 Dwarven Miner
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Masticore
1 Moat
1 Aura Fracture
1 Disenchant
1 CoP: Black
2 CoP: Red
1 Diabolic Edict

Milton, the Aura Fracture is there for your Bloodmoons and Oath.  Personally, I like Aura Fracture but its position in my sideboard is hardly set in stone.

Here is the breakdown.  This is based on my own thoughts.  Please feel free to let me know if some my thinking looks flawed.

Vs. The Mirror:

Out
1 Swords
1 Fire/Ice
1 The Abyss
1 Zuran Orb
1 Mind Twist
1 Vampiric Tutor

In
4 Red Elemental Blasts
2 Dwarven Miner


Vs. Mono Blue (non-Ophidian):
Out
1 Swords
1 F/I
1 Abyss
1 Zuran Orb
1 Mind Twist
1 Wasteland

In
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Aura Fracture


Vs. Mono Blue (w/Ophidian):
Out
1 F/I
1 Zuran Orb
1 Mind Twist
1 Wasteland
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Dismantling Blow

In
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Aura Fracture


Vs. Sligh (w/Bloodmoon):
Out
1 Mind Twist
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Wasteland
1 Jayemdae Tome

In
2 CoP: Red
1 Masticore
1 Moat
1 Aura Fracture


Vs. Suicide Black:
Out
1 Edict
1 Mind Twist
1 Dismantling Blow

In
1 CoP: Black
1 Moat
1 Masticore


Vs. Stompy:
Out
2 Shaman

In
1 Moat
1 Masticore


Vs. Oath:
Out
1 Zuran Orb
1 Fire/Ice
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Abyss
1 Merchant Scroll

In
1 Aura Fracture
1 Disenchant
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Red Elemental Blast


Vs. Academy:
Out
1 Edict
1 Swords
1 Abyss
1 Zuran Orb
1 F/I
1 Jayemdae Tome

In
1 Shaman
4 REBs
1 Disenchant


Vs. Parfait
Out
1 Edict
1 Swords
1 Zuran Orb

In
1 Disenchant
1 Aura Fracture
1 Masticore


Vs. Zoo
Out
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Jayemdae Tome
1 Mind Twist

In
2 CoP: Red
1 Moat

This is a rough outline of some of the decisions I would make vs. various decktypes.  Please comment as you see fit.

[Milton]

Quote
Milton, why are you choosing to run 3 Edicts main deck?  Judging from last year's metagame?  I know we saw alot of mono-blue, but there also was a ton of sligh, white weenie, and other weenie-based derivatives.  Wouldn't 2 Edicts and 2 Fire/Ice serve that meta call more effectively?  

I'm honestly thinking about 3 Edicts and a Keg or Masticore.  I don't have the white to support the superior Swords to Plowshares.  I have been so dissapointed with Fire/Ice.  It taps an Ophidian!  Oooh.  Sure it kills wennies, but usually I can chump with Gorilla Shaman and trade wennies.  The great thing about GenCon this year is that I can change my deck after the first tournament to something more representative of the metagame.

For now, I'm staying with 3 Edicts and 1 Fire/Ice, but if I had your mana base I would probabally run 3 Swords and 1 Edict.

You take out MindTwist against a bunch of different decks.  So do I.  Did you ever wonder if it should be a sideboard card?  Does it deserve maindeck status?  I know it sounds like blasphemy almost, but, really, is it a maindeck card?

[hippie tourach]

Like Gilindon, I am not a fan of Braingeyser in Keeper.  Stroke of Genius is a card that can only be used effectively in late game or after a successful Mana Drain, so it's pretty situational and rarely helpful against aggro decks until you've already won.  Having two of these in a deck, when one is tutorable by all 5 (you'll see why later) tutors in the deck, seems redundant.

Now, Braingeyser is even worse than Stroke, because you tap out during your own turn, which can mean serious problems depending on what deck you're playing against, and it conversely cannot be played right after your opponent taps out and leaves himself vulnerable.

Jayemdae Tome, at the same time, has many of the same problems.  It takes 4 mana per turn, which makes you vulnerable to EOT plays like burn and card draw and ties up your mana a lot.  It's dead against suicide black (Null Rods) and an easy target for those extra Powder Kegs.

But compare both cards to Merchant Scroll.  This is a 3cc Ancestral Recall, making it quick against aggro, unlike both other cards.  It also pretty effectively replaces Braingeyser itself by being able to search for Stroke of Genius.  It initiates the tutor chain and pitches to Force of Will.

I've been running 2 Merchant Scroll for a while, and I've found it to be very effective.  If I topdeck it when I've already played Ancestral (which happens sometimes), the Scroll is no worse than a Braingeyser, since it can fetch a Stroke for the next turn.

Milton: I think Mind Twist deserves the maindeck slot as much as The Abyss does--it may come out against all aggro and combo decks, but so does all of your removal against control decks.

And you only have so many SB slots, besides.

[Fishhead]

>Vs. Stompy:
>Out
>2 Shaman
>
>In
>1 Moat
>1 Masticore

The Monkeys can at least chump in this matchup; I tend to remove things that cost more than 4 (Tome, Stroke) first.  

I'd generally agree with Milton about the removal; Fire/Ice is so optimized for a specific metagame that its not generally useful (and I'd expect to see a wide range of decks at GenCon).  Actually, the whole original decklist looked set for the control matchup, I'd probably playtest against some fast Zoos to make sure that matchup is still good.  (If you cant find a serious T1 Zoo to test against, ask some Type 2 kid to play you with his RG anti-Tog.   )

[Freddie]

Gilindon:

First off let me say, bravo...

I am refreshed and inspired by the indepth analysis, and new ideas for your keeper, I am glad to see how open you are to critiques.

Points / Issues:
*Mana Denial: 4 Wastes + 1 Strip + 2 Shaman = HUGE advantage in the mirror, zoo, and combo.
I have long wished to fit the 4th wasteland into my keeper as well, but due to all of the mono colored decks in my enviornment, I have been unable to warrant it.
Have you considered possibly cutting a shaman maindeck, for a miner in the same slot?

When I made this suggestion on BD I got quite a bit of slack from it, but if I was in a more multi colored enviornment, I would do the same... it also blocks ophidian.

*Loosing green: As a recently converted (I recently added maindeck green- regrowth) I can definately see your point, and understand why you preference away from it, but the 2 reasons I recently added regrowth it:

1. (primarily) SUICIDE BLACK: and even more spacific then that, duressing and hymning my Yawgmoth's will, balance, or abyss.

2. (secondary) going funky fresh super hyper cool c-c-C-COMBO (echos combo in the background) with time walk, then regrowth, then time walk, then yawgwill timewalk... its a toy, but WOO HOO, the look on the opponents face when they thought they would have 4 turns to deal with the morphling, and they only have 1!

Have you expierenced allot of sui black decks ruining your day with well timed duress hymn action, and missed the regrowth?

*Tome VS Geyser: Tome is awesome. Awesome in a control heavy metagame. I am not going to gencon, but if there is allot of control there, I think it is an awesome choice.

Weissman played a tome, even when he had 4 Fact or Fiction's.

Tome is however (IMHO) about 50% as good in a fast mono colored aggro enviornment, were the game is often won or lost within the first 8 turns.

I curently run the geyser over the tome though, as I feel my creature heavy, misdirection light enviornment leans itself towards.

*Spot Removal: Fire/ Ice... I DID test this card, and I found it amusing, but cut it within a week, you can only get beatdown with a serindib, and a Juzam, and an ophidian, and a Morphling, and a Kirdabe, and a Skyshrowd Elite, and a River Boa, and >insert random fat here<....... before you say outlod, to all with in earshot: "That's it, I've had it, your creatures are going farming!!!" >In comes another Plow<

My metagame it to heavy in fatties to use it, do as you see fit, but I think it gives up effectiveness (and consistancy) for the occasional versitility.

*Merchant Scroll: Since I cut the F/i I felt that Merchant scroll is less effective, and have instead opted for Impulse.

overall I really like impulse as a mini tutor and mana fixer. I played a really similar version of keeper with -1 wasteland, -1 merchant scroll, -1 shaman, and +3 impulse, for overall consistancy, I recieved allot of slack for it on BD, but I still playthem, and I still win with them, being able to pull my arse out or tight mana situations, and search more often for silver bullets it to tempting for me.

What are your feeling on impulse?

I wish you well at Gencon, and hope that you have a good time there.

-Freddie

[Gilindon]

Freddie:  It is nice to hear from you again.  I always enjoyed your posts on bdominia.  And although I would not use some of your card choices (because my metagame), I always felt that the reasoning was sound based on your metagame.  By the way, why aren’t you coming to GenCon?  Kansas City to Milwaukee is definitely drivable!  

Here are responses to some of the major points all of you have brought up:

Major Issues[/i]

Dwarven Miner MD
This is an idea worth exploring in a well-known metagame.  In fact, I will try it out in my next local tourney and see how it works out.  However, GenCon is a different beast.  There is just no way to get a handle what I am going to face.  Last year, I played a odd collection of multi-color and mono-color decks.  Some other people I talked to ran into the same odd collection of decks.

Regrowth
To be honest, I rarely face Suicide Black.  However, I do face black-based disruption decks all of the time.  One member of my playtest group draws either a 1st turn Duress or Hymn in 95% of the games we play.  Needless to say, it gets very annoying.  But even under those conditions, I still don’t miss Regrowth.  I honestly feel my recursion needs are adequately served by Will.  I would rather have another MD Shaman than a Regrowth because it makes my deck more proactive.  

Tome
You are right on when you say that the Tome is too slow against Suicide and other uber-fast aggro decks (i.e. Stompy).  Hippie Tourach also brought up a good point about Null Rods.  The Tome will definitely come out when facing Null Rods.  I am revising my SB decisions to take that into account.  But the Tome stays MD because its consistency.

Impulse  
When I was rebuilding my collection two year ago (after my 2nd hiatus), I used Impulse in my work-in-progress Keeper.  I absolutely loved them.  However, as I re-acquired all of my pieces they were dropped.  Now I think I will give them a shot on a trial basis with my playtest group.  I will cut the following to try it out: -1 Fire/Ice, -1 Merchant Scroll, -1 Shaman and add +3 Impulse.  It never hurts to try it out before making a judgment either way.

Spot Removal
I have come to the conclusion that Milton and Freddie are correct when they say that Swords is superior.  It is also logical that I should running them as my main removal option given my mana base.  Therefore, I am making these permanent changes to my MD:  -1 Fire/Ice, -1 Zuran Orb (moved to SB) for +2 Swords.  This gives me a total of 4 spot removal spells:  3 Swords and 1 Edict.  I will keep the Merchant Scroll despites its diminished utility because I have grown accustomed to it and really enjoy it.  Besides I rarely Scrolled for a Fire/Ice anyway.  I either grabbed an Ancestral, FoF, or a counter.  Milton:  I almost pulled the Mind Twist instead of the Zuran Orb, but it is just too damn gamebreaking!  I couldn’t pull the trigger on that change.  I will leave that for you.

Sideboard
There were definitely some blunders in my SB decisions.  Hippie Tourach’s comments regarding Null Rods in Suicide has produced the following changes:

Vs. Suicide Black
Out
1 Mind Twist
1 Jayemdae Tome
1 Stroke of Genius

In
1 CoP: Black
1 Moat
1 Masticore

Fishhead’s suggestion on Stompy is also sound.  Therefore, I have made these changes:

Vs. Stompy
Out
1 Jayemdae Tome
1 Mind Twist

In
1 Moat
1 Masticore

If I have missed an issue that someone felt very strong about, I apologize.  Again all your comments are appreciated.  Open dialogue is the best method of improvement.

[FeverDog]

Granted i am not the Keeper player that Milton is, but i seriously dont understand siding out Twist vs control. Sure, if you tap out to cast Twist and they double counter(you should have a FoW) then they can do whatever they want on their turn BUT if it resolves it makes it very difficult for your opponent to recover.

Maybe you guys could explain why you think its a borderline card in Keeper and why you choose to side it out so much because every time i play Keeper its one of my strongest cards.

Also, i dont mind the idea of 4 color Keeper at all. Regrowth is easily replaced by Will and Sylvan, although great vs control, is not necessary either. Dont get me wrong, Sylvan can do some amazing things for you, but i would rather run a Vampiric Tutor in that slot, maybe i am a scrub but i just like the extra tutoring.

[Milton]

OK, I sideboard out the MindTwist against control because it usually doesn't do anything for me.  I have a tough time casting a big Twist and protecting it with counters.  So, I sideboard in Disrupting Secpter.  This card is sooooo old school, but it works very well for me.  Keep in mind, I play Bloodmoon also.  Bloodmoon in play gives my opponent a bunch of red mana to fuel their Red Blasts.  And, you can't Red Blast a Red Blast.  So, I rely on the Secpter to empty their hand of Red Blasts, which does a better job than a big Mind Twist.

In a control match-up, if you want to empty your opponent's hand it is sometimes easier to just cast stuff and engage in mini-counter wars, holding back key cards.  Throw out a Morphling.  It gets countered, you Red Blast, they counter again.  You can still counter, but you save the last couple of counters in your hand for later.  Two turns later you cast Jamdae Tome.  They counter, you counter.  Tome hits, and you assume they are out of counters.  Plus, they are down cards and you can draw more with the Tome.  Does that make sense?  I don't know.  

Anyway, in control v. control usually the MindTwist isn't necessary because the winner will have a hand full of cards and the loser will have nothing in hand and no one will have used Mind Twist.

Against aggro decks, though, I always use MindTwist.  It's awesome aginst Sligh as it empties their hand of Red Blasts, Boil, Anarchy or whatever hate they have.  The problem is, after a Mind Twist, they can use Cursed Scroll at will.

And, yes, Green can be eliminated from Keeper altogether and it isn't missed much.  In fact, to stabalize my mana base I even got rid of the Mox Emerald!  But, then again I play a wierd Keeper deck, to say the least.

Gilindon's current Keeper is very well balanced and is much more stable than typical 5 color Keeper.  And, to get that balance all he had to do was decide he didn't want to run Regrowth or Sylvan, a minor trade-off in this case.

[Gilindon]

I want start out by stating that Mind Twist is a great card.  There is a reason it was banned for years.  However, there are many matchups in which Mind Twist has limited functionality.  I side out Mind Twist for two deck types:  uber-fast aggro decks with Cursed Scrolls and highly concentrated control decks.  Against Sligh, Suicide, or anything with Welders, Mind Twist is always too slow.  The majority of the time these aggro decks have little to no cards in hand, while you have much bigger problems gaining control of the board.  Sometimes, as in the case of Welder decks, Mind Twist is potentially counter-productive, as Welders will feast off discard.    I side out Mind Twist against predominately blue-based control decks because it often a useless, sometimes suicidal, endeavor.  Why would keep in a Mind Twist that you have cast on your turn against a deck that:  1.) Has more counters than you, 2.) Has a greater chance of throwing it back in your face (i.e. Misdirection)?  Personally, I think Keeper is better served with siding in Blasts without sacrificing too much removal or card advantage.

I am not advocating that Mind Twist be removed from the MD, but I do suggest taking a hard, critical look at what advantages/disadvantages Mind Twist provides you in each matchup.

[Fishhead]

> I side out Mind Twist against predominately blue-based
> control decks because it often a useless, sometimes
> suicidal, endeavor.  

Very interesting.  Its been a while since I've played against a mono-blue, but I have done a ton of Keeper mirrors over the last 3 months.  I had considered the Twist to be a key card in the matchup (I didnt notice that you removed yours for the mirror).  

I'm not sure my logic is rock-solid here, and part of it is based on the fact that most Keepers have only one Misdirection, but:

1) If I get lots of early mana and the Twist, I will risk a turn 1-3 Twist and just hope they dont have the Mis-D.  It doesnt pay to play into a Mana Drain here, but with judicious Wastelanding you can occasionally get an opportunity even after turn 1.
2) In the middle game standoff, its a dangerous threat.  Since I have the same number of counters as the opposing Keeper, I can usually judge an opportune time.  Lead with EoT FoF and then try the Twist after the counter-war.  More often, just probe with a Twist for 4 and keep enough mana left for Mana Drain.  The opponent cant afford to not fight.
3) Similar to (#1), if the opponent shows weakness (by allowing my Ancestral for instance) early, I will try and tutor for a quick Twist to finish them.  (Later in the game, you'd tutor for Y-Will).

I suppose the bad thing is that Twist is a threat, but its only useful if it cleaned out cards that could have been used, but hadnt yet -- Morphlings, Edict, Yawgmoths, their Twist etc.  If you just expend both your hands in a counterwar, then you are now just topdecking.

The more I wrote in my analysis above the more I begin to think that Twist is only good early in the game, or when you wanted to force a winning position.  Either of these things are good, but now I begin to see that I may have overestimated Mind Twists usefulness in a counter-heavy matchup.  I'm not sure I'd side it out, but I'll definitely give the issue more attention.

> Vs. The Mirror:
>
> Out
> 1 Swords

I leave my 2 StPs in to deal with Miners and Monkeys before they get out of control.  My Abyss goes to the side, but I feel I really need a 1 mana solution to this potential problem.

[Cuandoman]

Gilindon, make sure to re-list the deck and board every so often so that everyone knows what your working with after changes!

Spot Removal
I also like the idea of running more Swords to Plowshares.  I have been running the "spot removal trio" and it never seems to cut it. For one thing, I could use more of them. Secondly, the Swords to Plowshares's reliability is worth the off chance of a 2 for 1, fechability, and cycling that the Fire/Ice offers.

Jayemdae Tome
Your arguement is sound. The reliability is there, but beware of Null Rod and Goblin Welder.

Cutting Green  ?
I guess it's Weissmanism. I like Regrowth and the options it gives me. Yet it is often the only green card in my deck.

Cuandoman's Deck

Mana: 28
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra (No Lotus)
4 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria

Counters:  10
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Counterspell (I played Mono-blue for a couple of weeks... want to give #10 a try)
1 Misdirection

Card Drawing: 4
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Braingeyser

Search:  4
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

Removal: 7
1 The Abyss
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Balance
1 Dismantling Blow

Utility: 4
1 Regrowth (Getting Timewalk very soon )
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist
1 Zuran Orb

Creatures: 3
1 Gorilla Shaman
2 Supermen

[FeverDog]

Im really not sure why you would prefer 3 Swords / 1 Edict over 2 Swords / 1 Edict / 1 Fire&Ice. Four spot removal cards is perfectly reasonable IF you face a lot of aggro, but if you face that much aggro then why not add a maindeck Pyroclasm or something similar. Unless you expect a lot of fatties, Pyro is much stronger vs weenie decks and does the same job as StP vs control (ie: kill shaman). Just a thought.

[Milton]

FeverDog,

Swords is the best spot removal card in the game.  Hands down.  First, I think most Keeper decks need four creature spot removal cards to deal with the growing number of Ophidians out there.  Edict doesn't do a great job against Phid becuase it can be Misdirected or your opponent can sacrafice a Mishra's or Gorilla Shaman instead (if they have one in play, that is).  Fire/Ice does nothing to the Ophidian.

Pyroclasm doesn't kill Ophidian either.

The big trend I see in Type I is the emergence of decks filled with Phids and Finkels.  As extended players jump into Type I, these cards are going to be everywhere.  Keeper doesn't deal very well with an early Phid, so you need the spot removal.  

Also, I haven't played Pyroclasm since Powder Keg came out, not that it's a bad card, but Keg and Masticore seem to do a little better than Pyroclasm when dealing with Zoo or Weenie decks.

[BigChuck]

First of all, I would never side out mind twist against anything. If it resolves against control, it WILL win games. Most decks do not play more then one misdirection, and you also have your own Misdirection plus 4 FOW's as counter backup. At worst, you can likely counter one of there counters, usually making them waste three cards( 1 drain/counterspell, and usually a FoW) so in the end it wastes three cards anyway.

Also, on the jayemdae tome issue, I really like this card in keeper. Two X draw spells can be a lot of mana, and only one of them is an instant. The tome's ability is always an instant, and it is just as good a mana drain sink as an X spell. Null rod would shut down your mana artifacts, making your X spells worse, so the arguement that it shuts down tome is only half-good. And what do you have to  fear from a welder? What artifact is going to be in your graveyard besides a lotus? And what is the likelyhood that your opponent gives you 3 free mana?

[FeverDog]

Ok, here is the Keeper deck i am currently using online. Note that i cant play it irl cuz i own no power at all, some explanations will follow:

//NAME: Keeper

        1 Balance
        1 Dismantling Blow
        1 Swords to Plowshares

        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Mind Twist
        1 Diabolic Edict
        1 The Abyss

        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        1 Fact or Fiction
        1 Stroke of Genius
        1 Braingeyser
        1 Fire/Ice
        1 Merchant Scroll
        1 Misdirection
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
        1 Counterspell

        2 Morphling
        2 Gorilla Shaman

        1 Zuran Orb
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet

        1 Library of Alexandria
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Wasteland
        4 City of Brass
        4 Tundra
        4 Volcanic Island
        4 Underground Sea

SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 Diabolic Edict
SB:  2 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  2 Circle of Protection: Black
SB:  1 Spiritual Focus
SB:  1 Aura Fracture
SB:  1 Scrying Glass
SB:  2 Dwarven Miner

Now, first you will notice that i am taking the mana-denial aspect of the deck very seriously, although i am only testing this at the moment. I have dropped green altogether which led me to switch the Emerald for the 4th Wasteland, i dont think one less mox will hurt my acceleration much and if i am going to have a colorless mana source it might as well DO something. The second Shaman main is questionable but dont forget the little guy does more than just kill moxen, he takes care of Scrolls, Vises, Zorbs(annoying with Sylvan) along with larger targets like Kegs, Scrying Glass and Null Rod. Worst case, he usually trades with a weenie vs aggro and can deal a few points of dmg against control.

Keep in mind that i am only experimenting with this configuration at the moment and i really havent tested it enough, thats why i am not making any wild claims about its performance. On paper though, it looks solid to me.

[Cuandoman]

Welder + Mox Monkey = No artifacts on table

I'm with Chuck on the issue of Mind Twist though. Its a beating against most if not all decks.

I see many fatties. Phyrexian Colossus, Karn, Su-Chi, Phids, hell even 'Tog! They all dont die to Pyroclasm or Fire.

I expect to see more and more Ophidians and Finkels too.

[spin13]

I can understand taking Mind Twist out against an aggro deck that wont have much of a hand after turn 3 or so, but I can't understand taking it out against control decks or decks you know will be boarding in a decent number of Red Blasts.

If you sideboard out Mind Twist on the assumption that it will be countered, then you might as well side it out for Land.  I can't understand siding out Twist and not siding out something like Stroke or Geyser in the mirror.  First of all, both Stroke and Geyser cost more mana to do the same thing.  Second of all, if they resolve, there is no period of time gained where the opponent is 'helpless'.  Third, the arguement that Stroke and Geyser can be pitched is weak as well, because they can get Red Blasted too (in the Keeper match at least).  Not casting Mind Twist because you fear Misdirection?  Why both casting Stroke, Geyser, Edict, or even Ancestral for that matter?  Occasionally a Mind Twist will get Misdirected, but so will any other targetable X spell that may have turned the game just as much.  Thats why people play Misdirection, and thats why you prepare for it.  However, turning your deck into somethign that totally ignores Misdirection gains you a 1 card advantage against an opponent playing a MisD, while you lose tons of your most powerful spells.

Simply put, Mind Twist -is- card advantage, and one of the best.  I would cut almost any card other than Ancestal and YawgWill before I cut Mind Twist - Time Walk, Balance, and Demonic included.

 -Eric