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Author Topic: The importance of burn  (Read 2905 times)
Bastian
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« on: July 01, 2002, 08:09:00 am »

Unfortunetely type 1 metagame is always shifted towards control, even though there are great aggro decks like suicide black or the funker.

For an aggro deck to be able to go on toe to toe with more powerful control strategies like keeper it has to be fast (stompy, sligh and suicide) and/or have a lot of disruption (ex: suicide black).
Old aggro decks had more chances vs control because of black vise. Black vise made it a lot easier for aggro decks to win vs control and made draw 7s a lot better. So far I'm not telling nothing that a type 1 player doesn't already know.

Control decks have often used (unrestricted) stapples which are ALWAYS seen. 4 force of will and 4 mana drains are not new in these kind of decks. So, why don't aggro decks follow the same rule?
Suicide black packs 4 duress and 4 hymn, sligh 4 bolt and 4 incinerate.

White weeenie is a mostly weak deck, but zherbus managed to make it better by adding the best splash it could have: red, for direct damage.

Holy Tommy Gun

4 Savannah Lions
2 Jackal Pups
3 Gorilla Shaman
4 Order of White Shield
4 Soltari Priest
2 Soltari Monk
2 Phyrexian Warbeast
1 Masticore

4 Land Tax
2 Scroll Rack
1 Zuran Orb
1 Enlightened Tutor

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Balance

1 Library of Alexandria
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Diamond
9 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Plateau

SB:
1 Masticore
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Swords to Plowshares
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blood Moon
3 Cursed Totem
1 Aura of Silence


JP Meyer also made a 3 color deck, the patriot, which didn't end up working so well. (If I well remember later on the deck was dismissed)

(sorry, I haven't got a copy of the patriot, but if someone would kind enough to provide it to me...)

I believe the reason for the patriot not working so well was it's lack of focus, since it tried to handle the decks aggro usually loses to: combo and control by trying diferent aproaches which dilluted the deck's focus.

I was tuning holy tommy gun to my own, when at a certain moment I had 12 burn spells: 4 incinerate/bolt/chain lightning which are just so good!

I believe that a bucket load of direct damage is what's missing a lot of aggro decks that can't usually deal with control or combo like some popular aggro decks can.

So I came up with...

Stars and Stripes

3 Gorilla Shaman
2 Jackal Pup
4 Savannah Lions  
4 Soltari Priest
4 Order of White Shield
2 Order of leitbur

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Tithe  
2 swords to plowshares

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Undiscovered Paradise
3 City of Brass
4 Plains
4 Plateau
4 Tundra

SB:
1 gorilla shaman
4 meddling mage
4 null rod
4 price of progress
2 swords to plowshares

The deck has been doing well so far (unless I get mana screw), since it can fight keeper, ose or other control decks more easily than some other aggro decks would. I'm not saying that this is the deck that's going to save aggro in type 1, but the principle is the same that Matt d'Avanzo mentioned on his last zoo deck.

Although the deck isn't really that good, if you seen it it packs 12 DD spells which greatly improve it.
By maindecking cards that at will always be as useful as possible in every game I'm not wasting slots with cards that I won't be needing in some matches.

Stars and stripes tries to follow that same principle by making aggro as effective as possible.

But if I'm playing that much burn won't I be a lot better with sligh instead? Perhaps, but remember that sligh can be easily hosed by the likes of aegis of honor or CoP:red, and besides the color splash offers powerfull cards: tithe thins the deck, ancestral provides card advantage, swords removes masticore
and other boring fatties, orders avoid abyss, mage is good vs combo/control, timetwister and time walk are... er.. timetwister and time walk:P

I believe that the key to replace the sucess that vise gave to old aggro decks is to be able to compensate the gap of aggro decks that creatures can't fill with direct damage.

This may seem like old news to most of you but I'm not mentioning DD as a utility you splash for or add in a deck to give it a little push. I'm enphasizing on DD as the solution to fill
the hole left by black vise. It may not be as effective, but it will certainly be a lot more versatile. Give it a try  \n\n

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hillbilly
Guest
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2002, 09:18:03 pm »

This deck is something like jank that was played in extended years ago but should hold its own here is a deck list and some reasons why it shouldnt lose out right
t1 jank
4 Savannah Lions  
4 Soltari Priest
4 Order of White Shield
4 Tithe  
2 swords to plowshares
1 seal of cleansing

2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Incinerate
1 Wheel of Fortune

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
3 serendib efreet

2 cured scroll

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Saphire
1 Strip Mine
2 Waste land
1 Undiscovered Paradise
3 City of Brass
3 Plains
4 Plateau
4 Tundra

17 creatures should be enough I think
the mana base should be okay,also you get tithe and there is room for 3 strips
17 white sources for 19 cards
10 red source for 9 cards
10 blue sources for 6 cards

You should do okay agaisnt keg do to various casting costs
1cc threats = 8 (4 lion, 2 shamam, 2 scroll)
2cc threats = 8 (4 orders, 4 Priest)
3cc threats = 3 (3 dibs)

Against the abyss you have a chance
1. burn
2. scrolls
3. orders
4. seal

I would like to play 3 scrolls but dont know what to switch for it, suppose the seal could go but i just like having a MD answer for nasty artifacts or enchantments
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SpikeyMikey
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« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2002, 10:29:21 pm »

Burn is not the answer aggro needs.  Aggressive card choices and an aggressive playing style is what aggro needs.

I honestly don't think that the metagame is shifted towards control.  Both aggro and control style decks have inherent strengths and weaknesses, and they're all pretty well balanced, as far as I can tell.

I think the biggest problem is a lack of really good aggro players.  Just like in T2, the better players tend to play control decks, because when an "oh shit, I lose" card comes up, you have answers for it.  It's also a little more challenging to play control, it's less forgiving of mistakes than an aggressive deck is, and it keeps you at the top of your game.

Also, just like other formats, you really have to become accustomed to playing a certain style.  For instance, I gave my sligh deck to a friend, to play a few friendly games against another sligh deck.  My deck was far superior, the girl he was playing was only running 1 cursed scroll, 1 mox monkey(not exactly a huge loss in the fast mirror, but certainly hurts if an active scroll gets out), 2 price main(dead in the mirror), and was running ironclaw orcs to make up the missing slots.  He lost.  4 straight games.  I picked up the deck, and proceeded to beat her 4 out of 5 games.  It's not because I'm a better player than him, in terms of sheer game skill, he's far better than I am.

You have to understand that aggro and control are not exactly set values, it's more like a grey-scale, with your very aggressive decks(Stompy), to your more controlling aggressive decks(Suicide), and from your very controlling decks(Parfait), to your very aggressive control decks(Pox).  Most "aggro" decks fall very far to the aggressive side, having few answers, mostly things like wastelands, lyrists or shamans.  These decks aren't looking for answers, they're looking for problems.  That is the key to playing an aggressive deck.

I believe it was Mike Flores that said it, but the author really doesn't matter, the quote does:  "There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers."  It's so true.  I just recently gave myself a lesson in that, when I put together this 3 color weenie deck a couple weeks back.  I was having problems with my sligh, because people were boarding in 7+ cards against me, not in just a few matchups, but in every matchup.  Caltrops, Sanctimony, Chill, Conversion, anything they could get their hands on to hose the deck.  So I built something a little more versatile.

It was B/G/R, running every good aggro creature I could find, Carnos, Sarcos, Pups, Fanatics, Kird Apes, it was just a bunch of fast, aggressive creatures, some burn, and some answers.  Too many answers.  I ran 3 maindeck Lyrists, to deal with Oath of Druids and B2B, with 3 more in the board for any sideboard hate that might come in.  4 Edicts, 3 WOrb, a DT, a VT, a Wheel, the deck tried to do everything.  It accomplished nothing.  Every time you add another agenda to a deck, you water down the other strategies in it.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying aggro shouldn't have any answers, just like a control deck with no threats, you're going to lose if you don't have some way to disrupt your opponent's strategy, but the question isn't "What do I do to answer card X?" it's "What can I do to make him answer to me?"  If your opponent is too busy trying to deal with your threats, card X isn't going to make it on the table.  When you play an aggressive deck, you are playing with mana advantage.  If you pay R for a Jackal Pup, and your opponent pays UU to Drain it, you've just netted yourself some tempo.  Yes, he evens it out next turn, but you're not playing for next turn, you're playing to end the game before he gets a chance to get his feet under him.

Let's say it's the middle of a game, around turn 5, and the previous turn, your opponent Mana Drained a Ball Lightning.  Morphling drops.  It's just going to sit there for a while, right?  He doesn't really have the mana to swing 5, untap and block, and still protect it.  Yeah, he has force, but who really LIKES pitching cards from a control deck??  So it's going to sit there and block.  Now lets say your opponent is at 11, and you're still at 20, and you have a pair of pups and a pair of fanatics on the board.  You attack, right?  I've watched people in that situation sit back, because they're afraid of taking 5 via the pup.  Screw it!  Yeah, you may be taking 5, but your opponent is taking 4, and that's without counting whatever burn you might throw at them.  You can't be scared.  You can't wonder "What if my opponent has this card?"  Don't worry about it.  You don't have an answer for that card.  Don't give him time to find it.  Beat his skull in.  Play another ball, what's the worst he can do, drain it and use it to attack for one turn, before morphling is back on blocking duty?  At best, he's takin extra points to the dome, and that's what it's all about.

Control works on card advantage.  When they use one mindtwist on turn 1 to rob you of 4 cards, they've gained massive card advantage.  Control doesn't like 1-for-1 trades, because in a war of attrition, their slower answers will lose to your faster threats.  This is not new information, everyone knows this, and yet people try to play aggro in a controlling manner, trying to maximize their card efficiency.

I agree, if you bolt your opponent's ball lightning, instead of them, you've gained an advantage.  That'd be fine, if you were looking for the long game. Back to the example of my friend losing the mirror, that's exactly what he was doing.  He'd hold back burn, hold back creatures, trying to set up a favorable board position.  The way I piloted the deck, I didn't care if I got hit with a ball lightning.  Screw that, I've got balls of my own.  I got an advantageby forcing her react to me, the way she did to him, and she lost, because once you lose that tempo, you're done.

An aggressive deck is a lot scarier when it's bleeding 4-8 points off you a turn, because you can't keep that up very long before you die.  When you're sitting with a Moat on the table, and an active Library, it's not nearly as scary.  Bolt me?  I'll misdirect it to your pup, the one that's been sitting there useless since moat dropped. Rather than run maindeck anarchy to deal with the moat, I'd rather focus on killing my opponent before it drops.  A little disruption goes a long way, and the more disruption you throw in a deck, the less effective it becomes.  What good does duress do you after you've hit someone with a hippie 3 or 4 times?  I'm not suggesting you shouldn't run both, just that you need to think about how often your "answers" are going to be dead.  It's much rarer to have a dead threat.

In an aggressive deck, you need to be proactive, you need to take charge of the game from the moment you drop your first land, and don't ever let your opponent take a breath.  That's what aggro needs to beat control, that's all it ever has needed.

Just my two cents.

P.S.  I'm not saying burn isn't good, I'm just saying that you're going to slow yourself down to add it to an existing non-red deck, and that loss of tempo is going to kill you more often than it helps.  Somehow forgot to slip that into that long rant...  

MERGED POST\n\n

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Bastian
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« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2002, 11:17:50 pm »

First of all thanks to both for replying. It's nice to see that someone took on the courage to read and reply to me:)

You are right, but my concept on burn isn't far from your theory.

By adding massive ammounts of burn to my deck I'm making it more aggressive, and providing with versatility vs some threats it wouldn't usually deal with, although burn was originally put in there to end the game faster.

"I'm not saying burn isn't good, I'm just saying that you're going to slow yourself down to add it to an existing non-red deck."- who said the deck wasn't meant to be 3 colors?? I packed white because of it has some of the games best weenies, red because of burn and blue...

The only mistake I may have made so far was to splash blue to add power blue and meddling mages which are more reactive cards than aggressive ones.

PS: spikey mikey, you make me remember of Matt d'Avanzo... Then again, perhaps this is just me. I miss see him around..
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Os-Vegeta
Guest
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2002, 11:29:53 pm »

Bastian:  I think Stars and Stripes looks very good,and I can see the point of adding burn to WW to improve its performance.  However, Zherbus runs Seal of Cleansing in his Holy Tommy Gun, while you run no enchantment and artifact removal md or sb.  Why is that?
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FeverDog
Guest
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2002, 11:59:20 pm »

I would prefer sticking to Wr for the better mana base and more focused attack. I think splashing more than one colors just makes the deck too vulnerable to non-basic hate and dilutes what power you have. Also, it is unlikely that anyone who actually owns power will choose to play WW instead of dedicated control, so the red splash seems more reasonable to me. I posted my deck in another post somewhere but i will post it again just for reference.

//NAME: Gun

        4 Lightning Bolt
        4 Chain Lightning
        2 Jackal Pup
        2 Gorilla Shaman
        4 Swords to Plowshares
        4 Savannah Lions
        4 Soltari Priest
        4 Soltari Monk
        4 Longbow Archer
        2 Goblin Trenches
        4 Land Tax
        1 Strip Mine
        3 Wasteland
        2 Battlefield Forge
        4 Plateau
        2 Mountain
        10 Plains

SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  4 Blood Moon
SB:  4 Seal of Cleansing
SB:  3 Null Rod\n\n

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Bastian
Guest
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2002, 12:04:38 am »

I used no seals of cleansing maindeck because they were there to deal mainly with enchantments. While burn and first strikers can deal with just about any creature (along with swords), I built the deck thinking more about the control matchups.

The enchantment I would fear the most would be Moat, but just how much play does it see nowadays? And abyss doesn't hit all of my creatures. Pro black creatures avoid abyss, and even if they were killed by the time this happens direct damage has already taken out the chunk of life I need to win the game.

Then we have serious problem cards such as powder keg and masticore, which worry me the most. Unfortunetely I prefered to run 4 maindeck chain lightnings instead of null rods and/or seals of cleansing/disenchants because it was the massive ammount of burn that allowed me to prevail unlike my other White Weenie decks did.

As spikey mikey said the decks got too dilluted because I tried to accomplish to much at once. By using 4 chain lightnings instead of solutions I added the extra the deck was needing.

It is designed to do what an aggro deck is meant to be: aggressive. And it will be so. If it loses game 1 thanks to the lack of answers it will be a close victory for the opponent since the deck manages to run them down pretty fast. It's not invincible though, and it needs further testing, tweaking... but I feel it's as solid as I've managed a White Weenie deck so far.
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Bastian
Guest
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2002, 12:09:59 am »

"Also, it is unlikely that anyone who actually owns power will choose to play WW instead of dedicated control..."- spikey mikey just like Matt d'avanzo are right. Type 1 aggro isn't dead, it's just not good enough due to the lack of efforts to do so.

If people prefer to play control because they own power, go ahead. I'm not a control player and I prefer much more to play aggro decks. It fits my play style and it satisfies me. I think that the format can still be further explored and that it's just not done because people prefer control decks, just like you said.

Don't blame me! But if I had power I would still be playing this deck, because I like it, I like aggressive play style, and above all because I think type 1 is in great need of creative development, so as to introduce new, viable deck ideas into the format.

On a sidenote, it's also a bit ironic for me to be saying this, since after I read spikey mikey's post I've decided to strip Stars n' Stripes out of blue
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SpikeyMikey
Guest
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2002, 12:40:20 am »

Wow, I left this thread alone for like 3 hours and it tripled in size.  I don't have full power, I'm missing a pearl, a jet, a walk, and a twister, but I love sligh.  I'm in a period of self-loathing for breaking it down for that B/G/R monstrosity, but I just prefer playing an aggressive deck.  Or combo.  I wasn't aiming the comment about slowing the deck down at the Stars and Stripes deck, but more as a general comment.  I've seen people splash red into mono-black, and it was problematic, even with good mana distribution, it didn't make the deck any more efficient, and it screwed up the mana base.  I'm very leary of putting myself in the way of wastelands in a deck with a low mana count.  There's a guy around here that added white to his sligh for savannah lions, swords, and goblin legionaires.  Now to me, that seems kinda dumb.  Yeah, getting a 2/1 for 1 with no drawback is great for sligh, but swords is a very reactive card, and while legionaire is good, between him and the lion, it's not enough of a reason to rob the deck of PoP, Blood Moon, Anarchy, Fireblast, etc.  Going the other way around, taking a white aggro deck and adding some fast red in, that might be worthwhile, although I haven't tested it(and probably won't, my supply of WW cards begins and ends at 4 Savannah Lions and some plains).

On a side note, I'm deeply honored to see my name in the same sentence as Matt D.
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Os-Vegeta
Guest
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2002, 12:57:55 am »

Bastian:
My main concern was Moat. Only a year ago when I played my B/U Stacker in online T1 tourneys I encountered a lot of Moats.  In fact, it was a Replenish deck that ran 4 Moat that did me in at the one tourney.  

"Then we have serious problem cards such as powder keg and masticore, which worry me the most. Unfortunetely I prefered to run 4 maindeck chain lightnings instead of null rods and/or seals of cleansing/disenchants because it was the massive ammount of burn that allowed me to prevail unlike my other White Weenie decks did."

It's probably best to keep the Null Rods on sb because these decks have to be aggressive in order to win.  If Sligh played defensively, would it be feared the way it is?  No way!  By the time your opponent gets Masticore out you'll be nearing finishing him off.  If he runs Kegs, you can side in your Null Rods if necessary, but think how little a Keg can do for the first couple turns, and if it does hit after the first turn or so, there's no big rush to flood the field with creatures, just burn burn burn!
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