Neo Academy Discussion

[Magimaster]

Okay, let me start off with a little intro.

Back in the day (just over a year ago) me and my friend (KandyKid, on these boards) decided to get into type 1. I chose the aggro route, cheap yet effective (I wasn't exactly rolling in the bling in high school) while KandyKid preferred the wild and wacky land of multicolored madness (he had most of the duals at this point).

So I picked sui as my deck. Old and janky, it had the standard issue Duress and Hymn, Hypnotic Spectre, and some n00bish cards like Dauthi's, Black Knights and Unholy Strengths. Despite that, it still kicked ass enough for me to want to fine tune it.

One day,  I go over to  KandyKid's house (his real name is a bazillion letters long) and he shows me this pile of cards. It's mono blue, with tons of artifacts. He specifically pointed out 2 cards which he claimed to be "the kill" and pointed out a Tolarian Academy and Mind over Matter. This was Academy V1.0. We played a few games, and he had a whole bunch of alternate kill like Masticore, Processor, etc...played it like Urza T2 style mono blue artifact, but it was 10 times faster. He had tons of chaff in there like Scroll Racks, and artifact creatures.

Eventually, he started adding colors in. First black, for the obvious tutors and broken fun. Then green and red, for their share of the broken pie. And then one day, he decided fuck it, and instead of all these weird alternate kills, he decided to streamline the deck with one goal in mind : Kill with a huge Stroke (before this, he had relegated the Stroking out kill as an alternate method  ). Academy 2.0, getting faster and more resiliant. He mopped up at the local card store, and everyone was amazed etc...

Enter the internet age. We both acquired Cable Internet within a few weeks apart, and we discovered the wonders of online. I found forums that helped me fine tune my deck even more, and as well found a community of other T1 players, as there was a disturbing lack of them in my area. KandyKid used E-Bay and MOTL to start acquiring power cards to further streamline his deck. As well, he got an account at BD (Paladin) and further increased his decks effectiveness. We found a new card store, and they hosted a few unsanctioned T1 tourneys, which he won (tied for first in one of them) etc...
And from that point on (Academy 3.0) is where he is today.

All along the way I was there, for him to brutally massacre several times over in his efforts to playtest.

And that's my experiences with Academy.

If you're wondering why KAndykid has such a sub-optimal decklist (check the T1 mill here  ) it's because in our meta there's no "real" control (keeper etc.) but there's a few "pseudo" control decks like counterburn etc...so there's really no need for the 4 forces main, since it's mostly aggro or aggro control. I don't know what he sideboards.

Okay, so now that I'm no longer bored here's what I had in mind. Academy is one of the most expensive decks ever (right up there with keeper) so of course it's a rarity in real life (if you wanna play against one you'll have to buy a plane ticket to Vancouver Canada) but online you tend to run into them once in a while, and indeed it's a fun deck to play with (but not against) but it also takes some skill. There's a lot of issues in regards to the deckbuilding, and hopefully some of you guys here can help me with them

First, the Staples.

Mana Base -
Usually, all the lands (aside from the Academy) can support all colors, so as to support all the combo spells and such.

4x City of Brass
Of course.

3x Gemstone Mine
3x Undiscovered Paradise
Okay, here's a questionable spot. Some people like to run it 4:2 in favour of the Gemstones, but often you can only get several uses out of the gemstones before they run out, and this can cause problems late game. UP is superior in that sense. However, it's not a good thing to choke up on too many UP's early, they can stall you seriously early on, so I think 3:3 is a decent amount. I'm still deciding myself...

1x Tolarian Academy
***** SUPERSTAR!!!!! *****

okay, those are the optimal lands I feel. Everything else, like Deserted Temples, Library of Alexandria (which doesn't fit, KandyKid just put it into his Academy to show it off) and Strip Mine (there are other ways to deal with an opposing Academy, if you ever see one for some reason) slow the deck down from its original focus.

Onto the STAPLE spells... (spells which I think should be in every Academy deck)

The Engine -

Card Drawing :

1x Ancestral Recall
No question. If you got it, use it, but it's still semi-decent to play academy without one (just don't expect the same results)

1x TimeTwister
A big boost. Oft it will only cost you 2 or 1 mana. Against aggro, you've won. Against control, the risk is worth it, since everything you draw you can almost play that turn, and the same can't be said for control.

1x Frantic Search
A card which achieved restricted status simply because Tolarian Academy was printed.

1x Windfall
WotC doesn't like Draw-7's very much. "Too unbalancing" they are, especially when they're blue.

1x Wheel of Fortune
The printing of this card is attributed to the inexperience of R&D back during the day.

4x Impulse
Cheap card drawing, nothing more. Helps dig through for combo pieces.

4x Meditate
These help the deck tremendously when going off. But sometimes, when you stall, then these can be deadly. One of the harder learning points when playing this deck is deciding whether to Meditate or not. Still, they are essential, since 2 mana or in some cases 1 mana for 4 cards is just retarded

Utility :

1x Timewalk
A nice reset button, gives you a much needed untap in many situations.

1x Regrowth
Since the mana base can support a myraid of colors, might as well make use of them. Ancestral played 2 in a row is retarded.

1x Fastbond
Helps fuel the engine, and also helps with a quicker start in some cases. Good card to have.

2x Candelabra of Tawnos
Excellent utility card that helps give a big onus to your usage of Academy, and in extreme situations you can use colorless mana from an artifact to untap a land if you need a certain color.

Tutors :

1x Crop Rotation
Another card which was restricted specifically because of Tolarian Academy's existence, I'm pretty sure of it anyways. (I can't think of any other reason)

1x Demonic Tutor
No explanation.

Acceleration :

5x Moxen
Unfortunately, without these 5 cards, Academy just becomes another bad combo. Might as well play some janky combo like Pandeburst.

1x Black Lotus
Now I know for sure Academy is playable without this, but again, don't expect the same results

1x Mana Vault
Colorless accel, nothing more.

1x Mana Crypt
Another nice card to include.

1x Sol Ring
Accell (getting lazy)

1x Lotus Petal
Free, and in some cases helps give the right colored mana.

4x Helms of Awakening
An all important card, this is the catalyst for the engine in that it doesn't contribute to the combo in any way, it just makes it a hella lot faster.

Protection : Against counters and problem spells/creatures/other.

4x Force of Will
No contest.

2x Abeyance
Stops wastelands, and upon resolution, can ensure you go off safely and securely without fear of counters. It's a cantrip as a nice little bonus. It's white, but your mana base can support it.

Kill :

1x Stroke of Genius
1x Braingeyser
The kill method. After acquiring mana, you make your opponent draw a ginormous amount of cards, and thus kill him because he's not allowed to (unless he's playing a deck with a billion cards in it). Also, can help get you out of a Jam if need be by drawing you more combo pieces.

okay, so those are the lands and spells which I think should be in every optimal version of Academy.

Academy

4x City of Brass
3x Undiscovered Paradise
3x Gemstone Mine (note: you can run the gemstones and UP 4:2)
1x Tolarian Academy

1x Ancestral Recall
1x TimeTwister
1x Frantic Search
1x Windfall
1x Wheel of Fortune
4x Impulse
4x Meditate

1x Timewalk
1x Regrowth
1x Fastbond
2x Candelabra of Tawnos

1x Crop Rotation
1x Demonic Tutor

5x Moxen
1x Black Lotus
1x Mana Vault
1x Mana Crypt
1x Sol Ring
1x Lotus Petal
4x Helm of Awakening

4x Force of Will
2x Abeyance

1x Stroke of Genius
1x Braingeyser

Total :

11x Lands
42x Spells and Artifacts

7x Spots open

okay...

with those 7 open spots, here I present to you possible choices for what they should contain.

1x Time Spiral
and/or
1x Memory Jar
Both of these cards are insane card drawers, but is it feasible to run both? I dunno. I've seen both in action, and I would like to run both, but I don't know if I have the room.

1x Capsize
and/or
1x Lingering Mirage
These cards are to deal with Wastelands and opposing Academies. I don't think it's feasible to run both, but they both have their drawbacks and advantages. Capsize is more expensive, but it's more flexible, and you can go infinite with Capsize/Candelabra/Academy. Lingering Mirage is cheaper, and it cycles if not needed, and is a more permanent solution.

1x Mind over Matter
Academy runs fine with or without this thing. It's clunky early on, but late game it wins.

1x Vampiric Tutor
and/or
1x Mystical Tutor
and/or
1x Merchant Scroll
I don't really like the Vamp or Mystical, because late game they suck, but early one they can also be a life saver. I would run one or the other, but not both.

Scroll fetches ancestral, and then it fetches Meditate, and anything after that is useless. It's a probable no, but it's worthy of mention.

1x Tinker
If you run Jar, then you run this. If no Jar, then this really isn't worth it.

1x Grim Monolith
Some people deem this not effecient enough, but I think it's okay, especially since most of the time it's free. Still, some people opt for another card in Grim's place.

so, we have about 10 cards fighting for 7 open spots. That should make up the rest of the deck.

If it were me, here's what I'd run :

1x Time Spiral
1x Memory Jar
1x Capsize (overall, I think it's a better choice than Lingering)
1x Mind over Matter (what the hell  )
1x Tinker (cuz of Jar)
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Mystical Tutor/Grim Monolith (can't decide)

do you think this is optimal? or not?

onto another topic : Sideboarding.

Academy's main problem is counters. They are a real big speed bump. It tries to adress this concern maindeck with Forces and Abeyance. Game 1 is more often than not a loss, so the sideboard should contain elements which help beat control.

Most people opt for a "Transformational" sideboard, in which they side out combo pieces for anti-control pieces like seals, duress' and creatures like Negator. This is okay, but it doesn't help much either, as the control player expects this and sides in the appropriate creature control.

I had another idea in mind. How about siding in more anti-control stuff? Stuff like Defense Grids and More Abeyances. The main problem is finding out what to side out. I was thinking along the lines of siding out some of the more explosive pieces like a couple of Meditates, and some of the artifact accell like a couple of Helms etc.. which means you don't go off as fast, but it's stronger in the face of counters.

Also, some secret tech time. Howabout siding in Yawgmoth's Will?

I mean, if you side in all the anti control stuff, you're preparing for a fairly drawn out battle, and when you do finally setup with your protective wall of Grids or after an Abeyance, chances are you've had a few stuff countered earlier. This is where Yawgie's Will is at it's most explosive, when you're fairly setup, but have quite a few goodies in the graveyard. It can be crushing against control.

here's a proposed Sideboard : (with an explanation)

4x Defense Grid
No matter what anyone says, grids are still fairly effective. Coupled with Forces, you should be well off.
2x Abeyance (maybe too much?)
4 Abeyances should provide a nice little insurance as well.
1x Yawgmoth's Will
***** SECRET TECH!!!!! *****
4x Kaervek's Torch
Anti Control. It's useful at killing when you can't generate the insane amounts of mana that you normally could. Since you're sideboarding out some combo elements, these might prove useful games 2 and 3.
3x OPEN
I was thinking of something like Duress or Orim's Chant, but also that this spot could be filled with land. If you're trying to prepare for a semi-drawn out battle, then more land might be in order. These spots are open to considerations.

Again, you shoudn't need to sideboard for aggro. The aggro deck that might give you a little trouble would be Sui, which can have explosive starts all on its own via. rits + discard, as well as some decent disruption fron Rods. But hands like those are rare, and they can be played around in most cases. You shouldn't need to sideboard for aggro.

The sideboard I proposed was for control, which should give you quite a bit of trouble. Here's what I was thinking of sideing out should the need be to side out 15 cards :

2-3x Meditate? You won't need them against control, as they can cost you dearly. It might be a good idea to side them all  out completely.

4x Helms of Awakening?
Again, you won't need them. They'll probably help control as much as they help you game 2.

1x Mana Vault
1x Grim Monolith
These would just be clunky.

1x Stroke
1x Braingeyser
Replace with Torches.

1x Fastbond
Speed isn't the issue anymore, it's setting up properly.

so those are 12 cards I came up with. I don't know about the last 3, but I doubt you'd need to side in all 15 cards anyways. Most stuff I would sideboard for would be keeper, mono blue and other blue based control. Ya, that's pretty much it, since Academy laughs in the face of aggro

so what do you think guys? what would you put in those seven open spots? Do you disagree with any of the stuff which I said was staple? howabout my proposed sideboarding, is it too crappy?  or what changes do you think I need to make?

Pplease, help me make Academy better. It's ultra rare, but it's rare for a reason, it takes a tremendous amount of skill (literally), time (literally) and money (literally) to play this thing properly. I'm blessed (cursed?) with the ability to see this thing in action in real life, which is much much faster than playing it on apprentice (like, 30 minutes faster if the guy playing it knows what he's doing).

thank you for taking the time to read my enormous rant.

[dandan]

IMHO
Impulse is not a must, it is a viable option.
4 Helms is not a must, I've run 2-4 depending on your configuration
The Tutors are a must, Mystic, Vampiric and Merchant Scroll

A wacky card choice for Academy that nobody else seems to use is:
Chromatic Sphere 1
1, T, Sacrifice Chromatic Sphere: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Draw a card.

Aside from the obvious combo with Academy it helps you convert colourless and blue mana to that coloured mana you need when you go off. It combos with the tutors and cycles for effectively 1 mana. I can only find room for 1 but if you ever get colour screwed, the sphere may be for you.

Marginally connected with the Sphere, I've always found Yawgmoth's broken Will to be good in Academy. In short it helps you win the games you would otherwise lose (loose in that strange dialect many people here use!   ) without significantly affecting your chance of winning in other games.

[Magimaster]

Quote (dandan @ July 08 2002,03:12)A wacky card choice for Academy that nobody else seems to use is:
Chromatic Sphere 1
1, T, Sacrifice Chromatic Sphere: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Draw a card.

Aside from the obvious combo with Academy it helps you convert colourless and blue mana to that coloured mana you need when you go off. It combos with the tutors and cycles for effectively 1 mana. I can only find room for 1 but if you ever get colour screwed, the sphere may be for you.

The thing with chromatic sphere is that Lotus Petal does the same thing, only for free!

[dandan]

Partially true.

The Sphere doesn't cost you a card. The Sphere draws you cards you just tutored for. Petal is restricted (snigger).

I run Petal and I find Sphere also helps.

Effectively Sphere is Petal plus 2+sac: draw a card
(occasionally 1+sac:draw a card due to Helm)

Not exactly a must have but I'm surprised nobody else seems to even consider it.

[Magimaster]

Essentially, sphere says "1: draw a card, plus filter a color"

is that worth a spot in the deck?

I think not

[Tatanka]

First your cards choices are a litle radical
Your mana base seem a litle week I would add 2 lands, in my case I choose underground sea as my sideboard is a transformation one with negators and I run Will main deck
the sea let you cast artefact, blue and black spells so it's only bad when you need to cast a wheel, regrowth, rotation and fastbound(I run abeyance in my sideboard so I don't need the white mana main).

I'm also 2 less helm than you, you won't ever need more than 2 helm on the board and they often help the opponent more than you. I also run 2 defense grid main (only becaus of my metagame which is full of mono blue, otherwise I know 2 abeyance are better)

about the drawer...
Impulse are fine to let you search a card you need asap while placing some junk away from your next draw, but 4 are not a must I guess 3 would be fine if you would have to add something in the deck(maybe a card from the next set) it's a card you could remove

Meditate are broken with helms when you go off but in the early game it's a big guess if you fizzle it often cost you the game.  I run only 3 as it's useless in the early game and once you past the early game with this deck you win most of the time.

I don't play merchant scroll as it's a sorcery and don't let you search for a draw 7.  The others tutors are all a must.

anyway here's the deck I play

1 Tolarian Academy
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
2 undiscovered paradise
2 underground sea

1 black lotus
1 lotus petal
1 sol ring
1 mana vault
1 mana crypt
5 moxen
2 candelabra of tawnos
2 helm of awakening
2 defense grid
1 memory jar

1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 timetwister
1 time spiral
1 windfall
1 mystical tutor
1 thinker
1 mind over matter
1 franric search
1 capsize
4 impulse
3 meditate
1 stroke of genius
1 braingeyser
4 force of will

1 wheel of fortune

1 regrowth
1 crop rotation
1 fastbound

1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 yawgmoth's will

Sideboard

4 phyrexian negator
1 tranquil domain
1 defense grid
2 seal of cleansing
3 misdirection
2 interdict
2 abeyance

Tatanka

[Ocifer]

Here's my question... does IRL academy have a spot for the new blue wish spell? Cunning I think. See, it searches for an instant, and at the moment you can play 4 of them maindeck. So... you can move your instant Kill condition to the sideboard and up to about 6-7 other cards if you feel comfortable with the wishes. This could open up between 2 and 3 maindeck slots for more anti-control tech and will leave half the sideboard for anti-control techiness as well.
So, I'm playtesting it right now, but honestly it looks fabulous on paper... Does anyone else think that this card is perfect for the deck? Does anyone else think that Academy is gonna get yet ANOTHER card put on the restricted list? Cause I think, if it works as well as it looks, that it'll bring Academy some serious strength and will have to be restricted. Maybe that's just me... But comon' it's as good as a tutor, for a reasonable cost, and opens up several maindeck slots, like your SB was doing you any good anyway right.
Ok, anyway, tell me what you think.

[erik]

A good decklist, but i disagree with a few points:

* The mana base needs to be stabilized, as an early wasteland can leave you mana-screwed for several turns. You don't need many lands, but you'll want to have at least 2-3 in play before going off. Running more than 2 UP's is just too risky.

* 4 Helms are too many. You usually need to have one out to win, and it's a breeze with 2, but the 3rd and 4th are just overkill. No cards in your deck costs more than 2 colorless mana to play apart from Stroke and Geyser (you'll never hardcast Jar), and frankly the difference between finishing with a 62-point stroke instead of a 60-point one is not enough to warrant 4 helms

* Meditates should be played but not 4 of them. You always want to cast draw7's instead of meditates, as meditates have a tendency to give you 4 mana cards but no drawers. I'd replace 2 meditates with 2 more tutor/search cards.

* 4 Fow's MD are viable, but not the only option. At times you find yourself with nothing to pitch but the only card drawer you have in hand. I have chosen to play 2 MD and 2 SB, to board in for games 2 and 3 if needed.

* Mystical tutor and Yawgmoth's will both have a definate place in the deck, and the amount of mana artifacts should be kept as high as possible, meaning that both Grim monolith and Mox diamond deserve a place.

To sum it up:

- 1 Undiscovered paradise
- 2 Helm of awakening
- 2 Meditate
- 2 Force of will

+ 1 Gemstone mine
+ 1 Underground sea
+ 1 Grim monolith
+ 1 Mox diamond
+ 1 Yawgmoth's will
+ 1 Scroll rack
+ 1 Fact or fiction

Good luck with the deck.

[MolotDET]

I am currently playing something along the lines of Academy, so I figured I'd share my list with you guys to see if it is helpful.

(drawing/library/graveyard manipulation 14)

R Ancestral Recall
R Braingeyser
R Demonic Tutor
R Fact or Fiction
R Memory Jar
R Mystical Tutor
R Regrowth
R Stroke of Genius
R Time Spiral
R Timetwister
R Time Walk
R Vampiric Tutor
R Wheel of Fortune
R Windfall

(counters 12)

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection
2 Teferi's Response

(other spells 8)

R Balance
R Doomsday
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Kaervek's Torch
R Mind Twist
1 Orim's Chant
1 Power Artifact
1 Seal of Cleansing

(mana 26)
R Black Lotus
3 City of Brass
4 Dark Ritual
2 Gemstone Mine
R Grim Monolith
R Library of Alexandria
R Lion's Eye Diamond
R Lotus Petal
R Mox Diamond
R Mox Emerald
R Mox Jet
R Mox Pearl
R Mox Ruby
R Mox Sapphire
R Sol Ring
R Tolarian Academy
4 Underground Sea

     Ok with the card Drawing in mind the reason things like Frantic, impluse and medatate are not included is because of the turn clock.  With this deck I think you are giving up on control and so you need to win ASAP.  Turn 3 to 5 at the latest.  After that you can be beaten by any random deck.  So the above mentioned cards are too slow.  LoA is great in this deck because you have upwards of seven draw seven effects, so it's usefulness in undenighable.  Out of the drawing cards I have listed only FoF seems to not belong, but on the rare occasion when you're not working fast enough it is often what gets you the last piece.

     While 12 counters seems excessive from what I have seen in most other Academy types, the need to stop early disruption is manditory if you are hoping to win early.  Remember after turn 5 your hopes of winning have become severely diminished.  Also this amount of counters will help you in a heavy control Meta.  The Teferi's response is another Meta choice, I don't know how it works in your local area but in mine every kid with a T1 deck has 4 wastes and a strip, and most other players have them too.  So, keep your land base solid and draw some extra cards.  This is very important since I only run 11-12 land.

     As far as the spells go Balance and Mind Twist are teck.  If you are hoping to slow your opponent down you will always be light on land, so take advantage.   Power Artifact is of course the combo card for Grim Monolith and need no further explaination.  Doomsday and Orim's Chant round out the Kryptonite combo adding in a second kill mechanism and allowing you go off much quicker in some cases.  Kaervek's Torch adds another win condition and allows for a modicum of control, not alot but enough to kill off a few creatures and a kill vrs those nasty Nerco players.  Seal of Cleansing is another Meta choice as some of the people locally play Ivory mask and the need to kill them fast is important.  Also I found that with the recent craze of Worldgorger Dargon it comes in handy to have one of these in play.   The Last spell is Haunting Echos.
     This deck started as a Trauma/Echos combo last year.  Trauma has been removed for several months now because it is of limited use against many decks.  Echos on the other hand dosen't have that drawback.  Successfully casting it often leaves you opponent in scoop mode.  It is suprisingly easy to cast in this deck and while it is a powerful card vrs most decks it ownz Worldgorger.

     The mana base will be another point of contention.  Not one Undiscovered Paradise need be in this deck.  The low use of land mana is argueably not good, this is understood.  On the other hand the need to play as many mana a turn as can be is an understood fact.  Without Fastbond (which in my oppionion is a liability) playing extra lands is not possible, so artifact mana is a better fit for this deck.  The need for heavy black explains the rituals and underground seas.  The only other point of contention should be LED.
     LED is the final card for the Kryptonite combo, and with the wealth of draw7's in the deck it is ultimately usefull because you sac in response to the draw7.

      Cards like Candelabra and capsize were not included because they slow the combo down.  These were the right cards to include before all the restrictions but I feel they are no longer.  Besides with these you need Fastbond and I don't like the bond.  Several cards can be switched for others depending on your local meta.  Personally I play in several different places and this works just as well in a low powered enviroment as it does in a high powered one.

   Sideboard considerations have to be made for the Meta you are playing in.  I don't have a set board for this deck. It usualy consists of:

2 StP
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Fire/Ice
1 Mirror Universe
1 Flux
3 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Red elemental Blast

     well hope this helps.

2 cents,

[jpmeyer]

Note: You don't always need a card-by-card analysis.  Usually just outlining experimental, non-traditional, or eccentric cards is sufficient.  As Andystok once put it:

Quote Now some people would try and argue the usefulness of every card in their entire fucking deck.  Mikey P already made this deck good, I don't need to say that Spiritmonger is a good card, or why Yavimaya Elder is a green ancestral. But the fucked up stuff like Land Grants and Last Stands needs to be explained.

[Tatanka]

Ocifer:You would prefer having the cards in your deck instead of the sideboard, always.

Erik: I like your changes
I played scroll rack during a while and it was strong after a bad draw 7 or meditate. But, this was a card I played in the early times when I used to play with 4 candelabra, voltaik key, 4 MD defense grid and killed with a torch of 21-22.
I don't know why I removed this from the deck.
Mox diamond is not that bad if you run 13 lands but with only 11....  when will you cast it.
Fact is great in control or combo like pande-burst but in Academy it's too expensive and worst than any draw 7.


moloDET: your deck just isn't academy, I guess it is too slow and contain too many cards wich make it look like a control deck choose one, pure combo or pure control. Mixing both make them weaker.


Tatanka

[Magimaster]

Jp : Sorry, won't happen again.

okay, I just read over some of the things you guys said. Also, before I fell asleep yesterday I managed to solitaire a dozen or so games, about half were after boarding (to test)

- I am certainly gonna try one less Meditate and one less Impulse, and in their place stick in a Mystical and a Merchant. I'll see which one is better.

- Making the mana base 4:2 in favor of the Gemstones over the UP's. I'm also gonna try running one less Helm, but the only thing I would replace with is Underground Seas, and I dunno if just sticking one underground is worth it. I really wanna stick in 2, but I dunno if I should take out 2 helms for it. I guess I'll try it and see the results.

- Sticking a Lingering Mirage in SB, and taking out 1 D.Grid  took me 3 games to figure that one out. I'm musing with taking more out. Also, might cut down on Torches.... Also thinking of sticking land in SB, but that might be out the window now that I put more main.

- Mox Diamond and Yawgmoth's Will do not deserve a place in the deck. The Will, it could be fitted in, but for sure Diamond is ass.

- Just in : Grim has been cut for another helm.

okay, that's all the changes I have for now  I'll playtest some more later.

[Nova]

Since Matt D'Avanzo's Neo-Academy tends to be the standard I'll list it (the most recent version I can find) and add a few of my thoughts on certain card/strategy choices:

Lands (13)

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifacts (17)

7 SoLoMoxen
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
3 Helm of Awakening
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Memory Jar

Blue (22)
4 Force of Will
3 Impulse
3 Meditate
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Timespiral
1 Windfall
1 Stroke Of Genius
1 Braingeyser
1 Mind Over Matter
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Frantic Search
1 Tinker
1 Capsize

Green (3)
1 Fastbond
1 Crop Rotation
1 Regrowth

Black (2)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

White (2)
2 Abeyance

Red (1)
1 Wheel of Fortune

SB:
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Misdirection
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Balance
1 Mindtwist


Some key issues that always seem to come up in a discussion of Academy:

1. Defense Grid
The negative synergy with the helms is what kills these for me, although if you see a LOT of mono-U like Tatanka I suppose they could be a good choice.  Normally though, Abeyance is better and Grids are simply not needed.

2. Land Count
For goldfishing, the 11 land version IS faster.  The problem is against an opponent they can screw you over with a wasteland.  The 4 CoB 4 Gemstone 2 UP configuration tends to be the same in most all versions (although 3 UP may be tempting, it HURTS to have 2 in your opening hand).  The pair of Seas give you access to blue and black, the most necessary colors to keep you going in those critical first few turns.  I may test a Tropical Island or 2 in those slots because crop rotation and fastbond help you a lot as well.  So far though, the Seas have proven themselves to me.  Having them in the deck makes you less vulnerable to wasteland than the 11 land version and gives you a better chance of getting that engine started.

3. Helms
I think we can all agree they deserve a spot in the deck, often netting upwards of 10 mana on the second turn as you tear through your deck.  In my opinion, 4 is the best number.  I know, the deck above only has 3 copies, but tinker serves as helm 4 if necessary, as well as it's main use: fetching the Jar.  If you are not running the tinker, then 4 helms is the correct number IMO.  If you are running tinker/jar pair then 3 works very well.  You really need to get a helm on the table early to get started, and playing a second one puts the mana tight early game well in the past.  2 is the magic number of helms to be in play, 1 casting cost draw 7's and meditates are some good I hear

4. Transformational Sideboard
I haven't had much luck against control with the transformational sideboard, but I've had even less luck without it... Hopefully this discussion will bring about a sideboard that at least has a *chance* against big bad keeper  

5. Chromatic Sphere, Lingering Mirage, Merchant Scroll, Torch

Chromatic Sphere seems to be made for academy, it's a cheap artifact that provides any color and cantrips.  In practice however, one must realize that it is only the early game that truly matters.  Once you start casting a few draw 7's the game is generally yours.  Chromatic Sphere does not help you if you are mana-light because it only FILTERS mana, it does not produce it.  The synergy the sphere has with mystical and vampiric tutors is undeniable, but there are better cards to be used in the slot(s) this would occupy.

Lingering Mirage is a card I never used much (though I playtested it a *little*)  and it IS better if your area has an unbelievable amount of Academies.  Since Capsize is "Infinite Combo #2" and an alternate win condition with more versatility, I naturally choose it    Being able to force of will using MoM and not worrying is big plus.

Merchant Scroll doesn't fetch draw 7's, end of story.

Kaervek's Torch is questionable.  I've never used it because I felt it's uncounterability (sort of) aspect was marginal at best.  Everyone knows that you do not fight academy by countering the stroke, you fight by countering the card drawers.  In Neo-Academy it's not much harder to get 60 mana than 20, because at that point you are producing insane amounts of mana.  The best reason for running Torch, IMO, is to kill off pesky utility creatures (namely Gorilla Shaman).  Overall I'm of the persuasion of "Just Say No" to torch because it doesn't help you go off like the other kill methods.

Some of the views may inspire debate, but that's what we're here for right?  I don't claim to be a resident expert on Academy, but I've listened to a lot of arguments and thought I'd chip in.  Thank you for your time.

-Nova

[Magimaster]

Nova : Right before you posted that, I had modified my current build and had been happily goldfishing for the past 45 minutes or so. The only difference between mine and Matt's is that I run a Merchant Scroll in place of a Grim Monolith.

Merchant Scroll fetches Ancestral, which can be especially useful after something like a Twister or a Spiral. Getting a Meditate isn't that bad either,and at worst it's Force fodder but the main reason I switched is because I don't like Grim. Grim is just too clunky, it kind of sucks early on because it costs 2. All in all, I think it just misses the cut, but I may put it in again for further testing.

Another couple of things I was thinking of doing :

Tropical Islands might not be a bad idea, since the deck has more green than black. I might try 1 of each underground sea and Tropical.

I'm really loathing the Mirage block tutors, they are horrible when you're trying to go off, since the cards go on top of your library. Might try replacing Mystical for Merchant if I need room for another card.

Yes, I do think Matt's build is quite the defining one, it runs much smoother, doesn't get flooded with Meditates, gets enough land into play to ensure the combo goes off without straining for rescources...etc....

Onto sideboarding...

I honestly have no faith in a transformational sideboard. It reminds me of some sort of patchwork militia, just plain ineffective in the face of a real army.

Here's what I modified :

1x Will
1x Lingering Mirage
3x Defense Grid <--- on the chopping block
2x Torch
2x Abeyance
5x OPEN

The premise behind this sideboard is to slow down. Obviously, control won't let you explode like you can against aggro, so you gotta slow it down a little.

Will helps with staying power, and after a long hard drawn out match, when you're ready to go off, Will is there to help get all the nice stuff that was countered/kegged etc. back into play.

I snuck in a Lingering for testing, since over the course of a longer match you're bound to see more Wastelands.

Siding in 2 Abeyances for a total of 4 maindeck just rocks! Abeyance helps you so much, lets you play little pieces of the engine, helps you set up, and the cantrip makes it an almost never dead card.

Replacing the Stroke and Geyser with Torches is working pretty nice. It's much much easier attaining only 20-25 mana than it is 60, especially in the face of heavy disruption, and also because you're siding out some of your combo pieces. After sideboarding, you're quite a bit slower, but you can afford to because you've got a bit more staying power.

Defense Grids are sucking. When I play them, I can't counter any potential threats like Keg (really crappy) or random stuff like Ivory Mask (capsize) Nether Void (capsize) Blood Moon (good game, just about) and also I don't need the grids because I'm not trying to pull off the combo ASAP. I might cut these altogether.

I had 5 spots open. Here's what I was thinking in their place :

1x Mind Twist
You've got the mana to use it, why not.

Xx Duress'
thinking around 3-4. Helps with more protection.

Xx Land??
Don't have much faith in this, but more land could be useful, especially in a long drawn out game. Undergrounds or Tropics might fit the bill nicely.

that's what I garnered from my recent playtesting. I'll try and come up with more.

[Nova]

I'm glad we can all agree Matt's in the standard.  He did a good job of refining that, and I hope we can do what he didn't though: make it halfway decent against control post sb.  That seems to be the most difficult and most important thing to do with Neo-Academy.

Merchant Scroll vs. Grim

Merchant Scrolling for Ancestral early game takes up an entire turns worth of colored mana... 1UU draw 3 cards isn't so hot.  During midgame (after the first draw 7, since the deck frequently ends the game turn 2) you have enough draw 7's/meditates/searchers that should have lots of other things to do with the mana.  I agree that Grim isn't the best card but it IS another artifact (which causes academy to be that much better) and one that generates more mana than it costs to play.  The deck already has 22 blue cards so pitchability isn't always a premium, although the point is taken.  Neither of the 2 cards are great, and using one over the other won't make much difference when it's all said and done.  I guess this is where we agree to disagree, although if we can make your non-transformational sb work having a scroll maindeck may free up a slot and therefore I would switch over.  Oh yeah, and the OTHER reason to use Grim is for the psychological boost of knowing your deck is fully half (30/60) restricted cards

Scratch the idea on tropicals for now, especially since post SB we will NEED black.  They seem to be better than Sea maindeck because as you said we have more green than black, but we gotta take into account that SB so...

DO NOT under any circumstances replace mystical with merchant scroll.  First turn mana artifacts, land, mystical for wheel has led to many a turn 2 victory for me   Maybe if they printed a new instant speed draw 7 in blue...na we'd need "the bus" for THAT to happen.

I don't have faith in the transformational SB either, but the only other reasonable alternative is like sb in 15 cheap anti-control spells which begs the question: what to take out?  Probably helms, mana crypt is definitely a sb OUT kind of card, fastbond (slower game), and some of the card-disadvantage stuff (frantic search, mirage block tutors).

It IS a lot easier to get to 20 mana than 60 against "heavy disruption", I should have put that in my earlier post.  What I meant is that it's not good having a dead card game one.  A card who's sole purpose is to be the last spell cast, the finisher.  Stroke is in there anyway because of it's broken-blue drawingness  Post SB abeyance/duress/reb/pyro and ending with a 20 point torch may do it.  You can't really expect to go infinite against a permission deck, after all but 20-30 mana should be feasible if you get your academy out there working.

It's getting really late but tomorrow I'll propose a sb.

[Magimaster]

oops! that's what I forgot to mention in my earlier post!

what to side out for the proposed sideboard.

OUT :

3x Meditates
These just feed the engine, but they can also be deathtraps against control. I plan on siding all mine out.

3x Helm
Again, you don't need to go off as fast anymore, therefore I feel these aren't needed.

1x Mana Vault
Of course

1x Fastbond
Of course

1x Stroke of Genius
1x Braingeyser
Replace with torches

I never thought of siding out the mirage block tutors....I also didn't think of siding out Frantic Search. Frantic Search can sometimes pull off amazing plays, and also it's free, so I would want to keep it in, but we can work that out.

that's 10 cards. We can work on the rest tomorrow.  I'll try and slip in a couple of games before I pass out again at my desk.

[erik]

On some cards:

* Mox diamond is definately not "ass". It is an artifact, it produces more mana than it costs to put it into play, and most of all it produces mana of any color. With the amount of draw spells in this deck it is a rare occasion not to have a land to pitch to it, lands that would never come to use anyway unless you have fastbond in play. There's nothing worse than not having that precious colored mana that would allow you to cast the crop rotation/demonic tutor/etc that would win you the game, thus i'd rather cut grim monolith from the deck than mox diamond. Think of it this way: colored mana is very important at the start of the combo, once you get going you'll have heaps of blue/colorless mana anyway.

* By the same logic (cards that help you get the combo into play are more important than cards that help you once you've gone off) mystical tutor is essential to this deck. Like Nova said: Mystical tutor's job is to find that draw7 to play on your second/third turn. Sure it doesn't do much once you get going...but by then you should have more opitions available.

* Merchant scroll would be insane if it could find blue sorceries as well. As it is now it basically says "Find ancestral", which is great in a deck like keeper that seeks to control the game before winning. Academy doesn't have that luxury; you need to win here and now. This makes merchant scroll way to slow.

* Yawgmoth's will is just such a broken card that it deserves play in any deck that has other broken cards and/or fast mana, and that means essentially every card in academy. In some games it will do nothing, in others it will turn a bad situation into an awesome win, making it just too powerful to leave out in my opinion. It's also a great comeback card if you have faced a lot of disruption early on, letting you play almost every card in your graveyard. Let's just say i've seen the card do enough crazy stuff to become a firm believer in it

[cooberp]

Nova--thank you thank you thank you for restoring some sense to this thread.  I wrote this yesterday but couldn't post it till today.
=====================
No no no no no!!!!  A few points that are consensus among Academy players who have tested against good players that will hopefully clarify the issues that are not matters of opinion or reasoned disagreement but empirically proven through playtesting.

1. HELM OF AWAKENING AND DEFENSE GRID ARE NOT FRIENDS.  Pick one.  If you run Helms, you run Abeyances; if you run Grids, you run Sapphire Medallions. The Grid version is slower and can't do all the useful Abeyance tricks, but if you're really scared of giving your opponent colorless mana, you can run this at maybe -.5 turn to your goldfish.  And whoever said you don't need 4 FOW has never seen an opposing Counterspell.

2. Yawgmoth's Will has *no* place in Academy.  You are a Timetwister deck.  Your graveyard should be continually re-emptied.  And you don't want to remove stuff from the game.

3. In a deck with this much draw power, Vamp and Mystical are necessities, primarily either to get draw sevens or to control what you get off them.

4. Grim Monolith is a cheap mana artifact.  Use it.

4a. Power Artifact combos with ONE CARD IN THIS DECK.  And you already have two ways to get infinite mana.  I'd rather run a Noble Panther.

5. Kaervek's Torch is pointless.  If you can get to 20, you can get to 60.  Why do you need more than 2 X-spells?  If you have 20 mana, you've already won and can find Stroke/Geyser quickly.

6. Chromatic Sphere is inferior to Urza's Bauble.  Ouch.

6a. Don't play Urza's Bauble.

7. 3 UP's is too many and 4 Gemstones is fine.  Use an Underground Sea or two if you want more land (which you don’t for goldfishing but do if you face Wastelands).

8. I can't see any reason not to run TinkerJar--it increases the number of draw-sevens by fifty percent.  But some people don't.  Their decks are just worse.

9. You win by sheer speed; Cunning Wish is way too janky.  It's a control card, not a combo card.

10. Cards that believe it or not are actually worse than Yawgmoth's Will in Academy include Scroll Rack and Fact or Fiction.  Scroll Rack is good with Land Tax and that's about it.  You win by emptying your hand and drawing seven, and Rack is just dead weight.  Impulse is your digger.  FoF is just balls here--it's more expensive than Meditate, costs you a whole critical turn, and nets you fewer cards.  Again, it's a control card.

11. That last deck is just weird.

12. Whither Mox Diamond.  I like it.  Most people don't.

13. Matchups: Bye against all decks without counterspells (~90%).  Yes that includes Sligh and Suicide—against Sligh the only thing you have to worry about is Monkey (and Abeyance their Red Blast postboard) and Sui’s discard is completely negated by draw sevens, just make sure you Force the Null Rod.  40% against well played Keeper.  15% against mono blue.

14. Unpowered or low-power Academy: Play PandeBurst.

15. Don't even think of playing this deck without MoMa or Spiral.

16. Capsize vs. Lingering Mirage: I like Capsize because it's more versatile--the infinite mana combo powers you to half your wins, and it can pop other things besides Academies.

17. CooberP's Academy maindeck

Mana (24)
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Underground Sea
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Diamond
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
1 Tolarian Academy

Search (8)
3 Impulse
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Crop Rotation
1 Tinker

Mana Helpers (7)
3 Helm of Awakening
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Fastbond
1 Mind over Matter

Straight Drawers (7)
3 Meditate
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Braingeyser
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Frantic Search

Disruption (6)
4 Force of Will
2 Abeyance

Draw Sevens (5)
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Memory Jar
1 Windfall
1 Time Spiral

Utility (3)
1 Regrowth
1 Time Walk
1 Capsize

Sideboard (15) (still under revision)
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Phyrexian Negator
3 Duress
2 Misdirection
1 Abeyance
1 Balance
1 Mind Twist
1 Seal of Cleansing

[Magimaster]

I would like to dispel one common myth about academy :

"If you can get to 20 mana, you can get to 60 mana"


This is utter bullshit. There will be many a time when you can get to a "low" mana count like 20-30 but anything over that becomes an inconvenience.

And in the face of counters and other annoying jank, going for 20-30 is much easier than the whole 60+.

[cooberp]

There's no way I can let that stay on the board unrefuted, and your saying that automatically invalidates all other comments you have made about the deck.  I don't know how your Academy deck runs, but the two ways to get lots of mana are Mind over Matter/Academy and Capsize/Candelabra.  If your Academy is big enough that you can use a Frantic Search or Candelabra to get to 20 mana, you have already won.  Capsize/Candel is infinite mana and if you only have enough cards in hand with MoMa to get to 30-40 mana then you just cast card drawers or a draw seven to get the rest.  I have *never* encountered a time when I could get to 21 mana but not 60.  If your build is doing so then it is either very poorly constructed or you don't know how to play it.

[FeverDog]

All right, first, lets keep this discussion calm. I think some very good points are being made here, just remember that everyone has their own play styles and specific metagames so we cannot dismiss anything automatically.

I have to say i think Coob's list is excellent and its probably what i would play if i chose to play Academy. Its very well balanced and just seems like the most solid one.

I personally dont like Defense Grid that much but i guess it depends on what you expect to face the most.\n\n

[cooberp]

For the record, better Academy players than I shun Mox Diamond in favor of another Underground Sea.  And I still don't know how to sideboard properly.

[Nova]

To highlight the decklist changes between Matt D's, Magimaster's, CooberP's, and mine:

Magimaster:
-1 Grim Monolith
+1 Merchant Scroll

CooberP:
-1 Underground Sea
+1 Mox Diamond

Nova:
-1 Grim Monolith
+1 Mox Diamond

Note that all of our maindecks differ by only ONE card from the standard, but which card we change is just personal preference.

Grim Monolith has been good to me, helping me hardcast the first helm and draw 7, but I'm currently testing Mox Diamond in it's place since I have 13 lands.  If we are going to try a big anti-control (4 reb, 2 abeyance, duresses, mis-d's) then I think having another permanent source of colored mana that Mox Diamond provides will be necessary.  I don't believe it will slow me down appreciably against aggro, either.  Switching artifact for artifact also seems to do the least harm to a fragile vessel

20 mana vs. 60 mana

I agree that sometimes it IS easier to get to 20 than 60.  But if you can force through a 20 point torch at 30 mana, couldn't you force through a 20 point stroke on yourself which would allow you to get to 60 mana anyway?  This is a big point of contention, I hope we can get it resolved.

Yawgmoth's Will

I think we should bring it in from the sb because being able to use all of our 1 cost cheap spells again to clear the way for a 20-point torch ought to be worth 1 slot   Maindeck though, Academy is a twister/regrowth deck and you don't want to remove a bunch of stuff.

As for sideboarding, assuming we are going to bring in 15 cards, these cards seem like they have a chance of being cut:

3 Helm
3 Meditate
3 Impulse
1 Fastbond
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Windfall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Frantic Search
1 Crop Rotation
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Braingeyser
1 Mind Over Matter

The ones I feel need explaining:

1. Meditate/Impulse

As I see it we really need to take out one or the other, there is simply not enough space to keep them both if we are putting in 15 cards.  Magimaster comes down firmly on the side of cutting meditate, but I think having instant-speed personal card advantage may be more important than another turn for the control player (especially if we can use those cards in a counterwar to force topdecking).

2. Fastbond

May not get cut after all, we have so many gimp lands that it's hard to rebuild a mana base after tapping everything.  I think fastbond + will allowing us to get back those spent gemstones could be invaluable.

3. Windfall

It's not quite a draw 7, and if you have few cards and the opponent has lots of them it's going to be countered.  If you have lots of cards and your opponent has few, it's useless.  If you both have lots OR few cards, it's weak.  I hope you can understand that, because it confuses the hell out of me

4. Card disadvantage (Mirage tutors, Frantic Search, Crop Rotation, Tinker)

People from NG no longer use vampiric tutor maindeck because of it's card disadvantage.  I've seen it often enough in control mirrors: one player plays a card-disadvantage spell and that player ends up one card short when it counts.  Trimming away these spells allows us to trade 1 for 1, rather than 2 for 1.  We're not trying to GO OFF with lots of speed any more, so Tinker also falls with the rest.  Mox diamond may be the exception, and I hope it's good enough to justify losing a land (pitching the second UP wouldn't bother me).

5. Memory Jar

The mana cost is the problem here, and if we decide to cut tinker because of it's card-disadvantage then...

6. Braingeyser

A potent draw spell, but we aren't running mana drains like control decks and casting a high-cost draw spell during the main phase is begging to be drained and turned into a mind twist.

7. MoM

This is a possiblity to be cut, if we are going for the "mere" 30 mana to blast the control player.  At 6 cost, this too will likely never see the light of day.  Is it crazy to cut MoM?  It seems like pitching cards to generate a little mana would hurt us...

What if we used Ghitu Fire instead of the Torch?  As I said earlier, the torch ability is marginal.  Trying to cast abeyance to ensure a safe torch, I've had the abeyance misdirected making me unable to cast the game sealing X-spell.  Ghitu Fire could be added to the stack even after a misdirected abeyance, not to mention being able to start an EOT counter war with a sizable Fire (probably wouldn't need to be 20 against keeper because of sylvan/CoB) and then duress/abeyance/reb forcing through the second copy on our main phase.

-Nova

[Magimaster]

okay, first of all, sorry for sounding a little hot-headed in my earlier post.

It was early, I wanted to get something in before work

I'll explain my point a little clearer...

you see, when you say that if you can get to 20 mana, then 60 mana should be no problem, that's assuming you've pulled off an infinite combo (something like Capsize/Candelabra/Academy). Well then of course, why don't you just go for a billion mana

But I'm sure you'll never be able to pull that off against control. A smart player will stop the engine. That's why instead of trying to force in 60 mana on him, you just use what you have after boarding to force off a little one. Control will never let you have all the mana or the means to attain that mana, which is why after boarding you don't try to pull off the super combo finish anymore, which I think adds a lot of futility to the Academy VS Counters matchup.

also...

Quote from coober:

There's no way I can let that stay on the board unrefuted, and your saying that automatically invalidates all other comments you have made about the deck.  I don't know how your Academy deck runs, but the two ways to get lots of mana are Mind over Matter/Academy and Capsize/Candelabra.  If your Academy is big enough that you can use a Frantic Search or Candelabra to get to 20 mana, you have already won.  Capsize/Candel is infinite mana and if you only have enough cards in hand with MoMa to get to 30-40 mana then you just cast card drawers or a draw seven to get the rest.  I have *never* encountered a time when I could get to 21 mana but not 60.  If your build is doing so then it is either very poorly constructed or you don't know how to play it.

This post leads me to beileve you just skimmed through and read the last post I made. If you read most of the entire thread, you'll see I was referring to switching to torches and going for the 20 point kill AFTER boarding, against control.

Maindeck torches are jank  (I've seen them work, but they're just not for me)

About sideboarding and issues with maindeck stuff :

I think Merchant is gone. I don't know what to replace. I really dislike diamond, because it's card disadvantageous, and you'll need all the early mana you can get, so dropping a land to play a diamond in my view just doesn't cut it.

Think I'll go back to Grimm.....

Also, as I was saying in the beginning, Yawgie's Will definitely deserves a spot after boarding. It just helps too much.

Grids are gone, but I don't know what to replace them with. More land?

Might also try going 1x Torch 1x Ghitu Fire. Ghitu is an interesting idea...the instant speed might help in some situations, but Torch's special ability is a nice little thorn against control.

Also, never thought of siding out Windfall...could work, but I'm hesitant to do that because I don't wanna side out too much combo pieces, cuz if we do that the engine might not work properly anymore...

more later

[Ocifer]

Ok, I'll just post what I'm considering... it's not optimized yet but it's been goldfishing very well for me, turn 2 and 3 mostly. Then again I guess that's every academy deck...
Nonetheless, there are times when it's just as good as having 3 Strokes in the maindeck, and as best I can tell it has no effect that slows the deck down at all. Just tell me what you think.

        2 Abeyance
        3 Cunning Wish
        1 Capsize
        1 Time Walk
        3 Meditate
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Crop Rotation
        1 Regrowth
        1 Fastbond
        1 Timetwister
        1 Time Spiral
        1 Wheel of Fortune
        1 Windfall
        1 Braingeyser
        1 Mind over Matter
        1 Tolarian Academy
        4 City of Brass
        4 Gemstone Mine
        2 Undiscovered Paradise
        2 Underground Sea
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Diamond
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Grim Monolith
        3 Helm of Awakening
        2 Candelabra of Tawnos
        1 Memory Jar
        4 Force of Will
        1 Tinker
        2 Impulse
        1 Frantic Search
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Ancestral Recall
SB:  3 Kaervek's Torch
SB:  4 Defense Grid
SB:  1 Yawgmoth's Will
SB:  2 Abeyance
SB:  2 Impulse
SB:  1 Stroke of Genius
SB:  1 Capsize
SB:  1 Meditate

Basically, it's still got all the sideboard anti-control elements but can also grab an extra abeyance in the first game if needed, can nab the Stroke when it's time for the kill and can grab the Capsize if you're stuck around 20-30 mana and need to pull out that extra mana. The impulses and meditates SB still feel wierd, but so far I'm not sure what to do with them... I'm honestly thinking that Ancestral needs to switch places with the Impulse and then try to pick 2 different SB slots for the second Impulse and Meditate. But it feels fairly strong to me anyway.

[cooberp]

I am writing an Academy primer.  I will send it to D'Avanzo for review/edit before sending to Zherbus for post.

[Nova]

Ocifer:  Cunning wish has been tried (not extensively though, so there's still hope) and it really does only slow down the fierce machine that is Academy.  You often spend an entire turns worth of mana early game if you use wish then, and if you wait 'til you're going off you've already won.  The 3 cards you took out appear to be:

Vampiric Tutor
Stroke of Genius
Impulse

Vampiric Tutor serves the same function as mystical early game, get that draw 7 on top.  As such, it is irreplaceable maindeck.  Stroke of Genius you have moved to the sideboard to better use the wishes, but drawing a Stroke is better than drawing a wish for a stroke  Impulse is cheaper search than the wish and thus it deserves it's spot above Cunning.  In a decklist as tight as Academy, there are just WAY too many cards that could be in and are vying for the next spot.  Meditate and Impulse #4's come to mind.  Basically, I don't think it's worth it to slow Academy down early game for a tiny bit better chance in the late game (when you are already near victory).

CooberP: I would love to see the primer! Could you ask Matt what HE thinks about the SB of Academy?

About Kaevek's Torch:

I think we all agree it is absolute trash in the maindeck.  The only question is whether Torch/Fire are a better kill method against control after SB.  I've seen a lot of negators bite the dust against control, which is why I'm willing to try the torch/fire method.  Control players seem to EXPECT a transformational SB the second game and they tend to leave some creature kill in.  If we could exploit that tendency by NOT using the negator sideboard...

I think game 2 against control is going to require a totally different play style.  Forget any thoughts about "going off" and casting multiple draw 7's in a turn.  It will be a battle of attrition, which is why I think we need the good draw 7's and meditates.  We basically cast a draw 7 and protect it, meditate afterwards into a hand of 10 cards (one of which would be the kill) and then duress/abeyance/fow/reb their efforts to stop the fatal Torch.  What we'll have to do to get the kill reminds me of how a Trix player used to draw up a god hand.  I think if we stuff enough cheap anti-control cards in we would have a good chance of drawing more of them than keeper draws counters.  That is the theory, at least  

-Nova

[Magimaster]

Nova : I agree with you completely, except for the Meditates. If you cast a Meditate, and it resolves, you just lost a turn unless you plan on killing your opponent that turn, which is not the focus of the sideboard. In short, Meditate's drawback is too harsh, especially when it's a race to see who can set up and win the game.

Of course, we'll have to see

Here's the new modified SB :

1x Yawg's Will
1x Lingering Mirage <--- on the chopping block
2x Abeyance
2x Kaervek's Torch? (maybe only one)
1x Ghitu Fire (testing)

leaving 8 spots open.

Stuff to side out :

3x Helms
Mana Vault
Grim
Fastbond
Stroke
Geyser
Mind over Matter?
Windfall?
3x Meditates/3x Impulse?
Memory Jar + Tinker?
Mirage Tutors + Any other card disadvantage stuff?


Stuff to fit in the 8 open spots :
REB's?
Duress?
Mind Twist?
MisD's?
Land?

that's all for now

[Nova]

About the Meditates:

Should it really matter if we give the control player an extra turn, especially when those 4 extra cards are going to give us the necessary cards to kill them?  It is not a race to see who can set up first, the control player cannot kill you or even really threaten you early.  In a depleting counter-war, filling your hand with a few REBS/FoW's would be well worth it.  The control player would then be TOPDECKING for 2 turns, which isn't nearly as threatening as if we were both topdecking.  I agree though, you must be very particular about the timing on using meditates, lest your opponent cast time walk, morph, untap yawg will/mind twist Oo.  I think meditates MUST be tested though, we have no other personal card advantage minus ancestral and stroke.

A possible SB might be something like:

1 Kaervek's Torch
1 Ghitu Fire
3-4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Duress
2 Abeyance
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist
1 Balance/Teferi's Response

Since we aren't planning on winning in 2 turns versus control, wastelands are sure to show themselves.  I think Academy itself may be wasted multiple times during the game.  Teferi's Response may help solve that problem, creating card advantage while doing so.  I'm not sure if our mana base can support 4 REBS, I think 3 might be better.  I believe 4 Duress are a must since they allow you to see if you can, in fact, force through the Torch.  Balance is incredible with all the artifacts, acting as a second mind twist for 1W.

To fit in those 15 cards I think I'd take out:
2 Helm of Awakening
3 Impulse
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Mind Over Matter
1 Frantic Search
1 Crop Rotation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Mana Crypt
1 Windfall
1 Braingeyser

I can't bring myself to cut all of the helms and vault, because then we'd have only 12 artifacts, which seems to be too few given that 2 of them are lotus petal and black lotus. Mana Vault should probably stay in, since we need colorless mana if we take out helms.  What to cut is always the hardest part in academy, since you want to keep the deck as effective as possible while putting in a slew of new cards.

I hope this helps, if nothing more than as reference of what I was thinking.

-Nova

[Justin]

COOBERP -that is the exact decklist that i use, i use to run 4 helms and no underground seas but i pulled the one and added the other. i think that the list posted is the optimal build.