Neo Academy Discussion

[Rico Suave]

JP, then why do combo players side in cards to make it a shitty deck, especially against their hardest match?

[jpmeyer]

Because of the metagame clock.  If you look at the clock, aggro-control beats control, control beats combo, combo beats aggro, and aggro beats aggro-control.

The ultimate question is that if you are in a heavy control environment and want to run an aggro-control deck, why aren't you just playing Suicide?

[Zherbus]

Quote (Radagast the z0rceror @ July 13 2002,17:10)I don't know whether this has been discussed (I don't see it in this thread, at any rate), but what about 4 MD Living Wish and have Academy sideboarded (and random stuff like Deserted Temple, Cloud of Faeries, or whatever if you want the later wishes to do something)? The biggest drawback it would have is it would be counterable, but you would, in effect, get to play with _4_ academies. Perhaps in a more controllish version with Defense Grids and stuff?

Radagast, I feel those wishes just make it better against aggro, which it already slaughters. Then It makes it that much worse against control, which is where it really needs help. What would you cut for them? More mana? Abeyance? I think its best left as it is. Abeyance is way to strong in academy in my experience.

*pokes at CooberP and says something about misdirection on an abeyance when you have already pitched a FoW and theres a boat load of mana in your pool.*

(EDIT: Since we were just screwing around, I let you put the FoW back in your hand.)

As far as Rico's idea. I just think a limping aggro deck would just be horrible. It just wouldn't be strong enough aggro-control if that is what you are getting at.\n\n

[Rico Suave]

Because Academy after siding in the combo destroys all aggro, whereas suicide even after sideboarding doesn't.

Anyway, I'll try and get back onto topic.  I wasn't thinking of it as an aggro-control deck so much as a combo deck with the combo in the side.  

I always thought the transformational sideboard was best for the deck, not the burn.  If the deck gets to 21 mana, why on earth isn't it going up to higher mana?  Lack of cards to cast?  Well, if that's true then how did it get up to 21 mana in the first place?  I just don't get how it's possible to stall with 21+mana, but not quite 60+.

Ultimately, the reason is that Academy is an "engine" combo deck as opposed to a "combination" combo deck.  Engine combos are in the ProsBloom school where they need tons of cards in their engine to generate mana and draw cards and whatnot.  Combination combos are in the Trix school where you use a small (8-12 cards as opposed to most of the deck) number of cards in the deck to win with.  Academy really needs all of its cards in the deck, and it is just weakened by removing necessary engine cards for transformational cards.  A deck like Angry Dragon could get away with a few transformational cards in the main since its combo is so small.\n\n

[cooberp]

Zherbus--You are mistaken.  I Abeyanced with tons of mana floating.  You Misdirected.  In response, I Stroked for 31 and Forced, if I recall.
There was another time when you successfully Misdirected a big Geyser of mine and I scooped.

[Magimaster]

Quote (Rico Suave @ July 14 2002,13:01)Because Academy after siding in the combo destroys all aggro, whereas suicide even after sideboarding doesn't.

Anyway, I'll try and get back onto topic.  I wasn't thinking of it as an aggro-control deck so much as a combo deck with the combo in the side.  

I always thought the transformational sideboard was best for the deck, not the burn.  If the deck gets to 21 mana, why on earth isn't it going up to higher mana?  Lack of cards to cast?  Well, if that's true then how did it get up to 21 mana in the first place?  I just don't get how it's possible to stall with 21+mana, but not quite 60+.

Ultimately, the reason is that Academy is an "engine" combo deck as opposed to a "combination" combo deck.  Engine combos are in the ProsBloom school where they need tons of cards in their engine to generate mana and draw cards and whatnot.  Combination combos are in the Trix school where you use a small (8-12 cards as opposed to most of the deck) number of cards in the deck to win with.  Academy really needs all of its cards in the deck, and it is just weakened by removing necessary engine cards for transformational cards.  A deck like Angry Dragon could get away with a few transformational cards in the main since its combo is so small.

Rico,

First off, the transformational sideboard is total crap. Someone on this thread said it best : If keeper can stop Suicide's creatures, what makes you think it can't stop the 4 Negators + the other creatures you can board in. Starting maindeck with them is even worse, because you stand a chance at losing against aggro.

Even though it may seem like it, Keeper is not Academy's worst matchup. In fact, well played and teched out I have faith that a good player can break even against Keeper. The real problem is Mono Blue, because it has like way more counters, and a lot of those counters are early game as well.

As for the 20-25 mana thing VS 60 + mana :

see, I think that some of you are not getting the point. ACademy kills with the super mana generating engine (via MoM + Academy or Capsize/Candelabra/Academy) to feul a huge stroke that can easily reach thousands of mana.

Unfortunately, control will not let you have that much mana. They'll stop the engine along some point. Trying to resolve a Mind over Matter is almost useless against Keeper, let alone anything else packing counters.

The thoughts I had in pertaining to just attaining 20-25 mana is that you get that mana the old fashioned hard way. Siding in control elements like REB, Duress, Abeyances, Torches, while siding out explosive engine pieces like Mana Vaults, Mind over Matter, Helms etc. and just getting mana by just using Academy + Artifacts, with maybe a couple of tricks like Candelabra's + Frantic Search etc. You prepare for the long fought battle, a battle of attrition. You don't try to pull off the engine/combo, it's almost futile against a good player. However, it's much easier to take it little at a time, lay a few artifacts, don't overextend, force through what you need, and when you're ready, torch his ass.

So, based on what I said above, what's easier to attain, 25 or 60?

It's still in testing. I'm trying to find an alternative to the horrible transformational sideboard.

[spevack]

Bringing the discussion back to building a new (non-transformational) sideboard with which to combat control decks

I initially liked the idea of bringing in Duress, but it really doesn't do very much against control.  You Duress away their counterspell, play a draw 7, and give them a new hand of countermagic.

Assuming that most Academy decks run 2 Abeyance main, it seems like maybe you should side in 2 more Abeyance, and maybe even up to 4 Orim's Chants, so that you can play one spell to stop them for the whole turn, and then when you fill their hand with draw 7's, it won't matter how much countermagic you give them.

It almost seems to make better sense to fight over resolving Abeyance/Chant than to drop a turn 1 Negator and pray to God that it is enough.  With the transformational SB, what are you even supposed to do after you play Negator?  Try to go off for fun while you beat down?  I'm very uncertain, and it seems pretty sketch.

The most imperative question is this:

If you want to board in 3-4 REB, 2 Abeyance, and 2-4 Chant against Keeper, what 7-10 cards are you supposed to board out?  The biggest problem I have with playing Academy post-board is that I never know, since the main deck is so tightly tuned that it's hard to identify the less useful cards.

[Magimaster]

Quote (spevack @ July 15 2002,02:09)The most imperative question is this:

If you want to board in 3-4 REB, 2 Abeyance, and 2-4 Chant against Keeper, what 7-10 cards are you supposed to board out?  The biggest problem I have with playing Academy post-board is that I never know, since the main deck is so tightly tuned that it's hard to identify the less useful cards.

Quote Siding in control elements like REB, Duress, Abeyances, Torches, while siding out explosive engine pieces like Mana Vaults, Mind over Matter, Helms etc.

also, add Meditates to this list of things to side out. I"m not entirely sold on them yet.

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Magimaster @ July 14 2002,23:48)The real problem is Mono Blue, because it has like way more counters, and a lot of those counters are early game as well.

Yes, mono-U is much scarier than Keeper, but that is why I prefer a Negator approach.  A first turn Negator is extremely hard for a mono-U deck to deal with.  On the other hand, a Torch for 20 is not nearly as easy to get as a Negator.

What I'm wondering is why a deck with counter-magic would let you past 4-5 mana.  The counter-deck should be countering the first major draw spells you have, and not letting you get to 20 mana before doing some major work stopping you.  I'd put down as much as I could on the line to stop a COMBO deck from getting a good mana supply.

Anyway, thank you for the response JP.

[Magimaster]

Quote (Rico Suave @ July 15 2002,13:48)Yes, mono-U is much scarier than Keeper, but that is why I prefer a Negator approach.  A first turn Negator is extremely hard for a mono-U deck to deal with.  On the other hand, a Torch for 20 is not nearly as easy to get as a Negator.

What I'm wondering is why a deck with counter-magic would let you past 4-5 mana.  The counter-deck should be countering the first major draw spells you have, and not letting you get to 20 mana before doing some major work stopping you.  I'd put down as much as I could on the line to stop a COMBO deck from getting a good mana supply.

Anyway, thank you for the response JP.

The counter deck can't counter everything. If you can bait him into countering your mox or whatever, then way to go!

But you're also siding in some strong anti-control cards, like REB's, Duress probably, ABeyances etc. Force through what you need, everything that's expendable, don't even bother. If it draws a counter, then so be it. Unless by extreme fluke, the mono blue player can't keep you at 4-5 mana. Something has to be done....

Anyhoo, about the Negator strategy, it would seem to work very nicely, but keep in mind that if you don't bust one out early enough, then your strategy is ass because Negator's can't deal with morph very well, or your opponent might have a keg at 3 already etc. Relying on a first turn Negator is not very reliable....

There must be something better.......I think I'll try Grids again. As much as people hate them, they are the best solution so far to mono blue.

Keep testin peoples!

[cooberp]

Grids are horrible.  To make that work, you'd have to side out the Helms and side in Sapphire Medallions AND Defense Grids, which is a TON of slots.
You can't beat mono-blue.  Play a different deck.

[Magimaster]

Quote (cooberp @ July 15 2002,22:08)Grids are horrible.  To make that work, you'd have to side out the Helms and side in Sapphire Medallions AND Defense Grids, which is a TON of slots.
You can't beat mono-blue.  Play a different deck.

lol

You can't switch decks in the middle of a tourney! so what do you do if you run into one of the 2 mono blue decks in your area

Also, I don't know why you'd have to side in Sapphire medallions if you are siding out Helms.

Also, (taking a point from Rico)

What do you think of Ambassador Laquatus(sp?) sideboard? Ya, it's sounding janky, and the discussion is seeming to degenerate, but think about it : Drop him early, then every turn just pump mana into him

"mill for 12, next turn mill for 12..."

on and on.

Just something to think about, I know I'll be giving it a shot  but I'm not expecting much, other than wasted time.

[cooberp]

If there are numerous mono-U decks in your area, you shouldn't be playing Academy.
If you board out Helms and don't board in Medallions you'll be glacially slow.

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Magimaster @ July 15 2002,21:45)Relying on a first turn Negator is not very reliable....

Well, from my experience it's better than anything else.

Basically, you can try to force things through, but if you have too much protection and not enough mana/search, you don't go anywhere anyway.  

Assuming you do force through a draw7 spell, they can still counter the next one and you're done at 7-8 mana.  

You'd think however that sooner or later an Abeyance would hit, and then counters would not be an issue.  What's to stop your combo then?  Nothing.

The only way I see the burn method being better is if you force your draw spells through up to the point where you get 21 mana, but you never resolve an Abeyance.  That is so rare that it's not even an option.  

Basically, mono-U is a losing match-up no matter what.  Of course they can still go suicide-Morphling against your Negator, but you have permanents to sac, no?

Btw, I'm highly anticipating this Neo-Academy primer coming up.

[Solaran_X]

Here is my Academy decklist, and some reasoning for the cards I used.

Artifacts ( 18 )
1 Black Lotus
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Grim Monolith
4 Helm of Awakening
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Spells ( 32 )
2 Abeyance
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Braingeyser
1 Crop Rotation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Fastbond
4 Force of Will
1 Frantic Search
4 Impulse
1 Lingering Mirage
4 Meditate
1 Mind Over Matter
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Regrowth
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Time Spiral
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall

Lands ( 11 )
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Undiscovered Paradise

Card Explanations -
1. Candelabra of Tawnos - if I was using Capsize, this would allow me to go into an infinite mana loop provided I could generate atleast eight mana ( one to cast the Candelabra, three to cast Capsize and three to buyback, one mana to generate infinite mana ). Although with most of the lands used in this build, that is not feasible.

2. Helm of Awakening - makes everything 1 cheaper! Too bad it works for your opponent too, but that isn't too big of a concern. Also, the Helms aid your Stroke of Genius and Braingeyser by acting as extra colorless mana. If you were Stroking for 10, you would normally have to pay 12U. But the Helms drop that to 8U, allowing you to pump four more colorless mana into it to actually stroke for 12! Same with Braingeyser, but if you Braingeysered for 10, you'd actually Braingeyser for 14!

3. Abeyance - stops your opponent from countering the big fat Stroke of Genius or Braingeyser. Downside is that Mystic Snake sneaks by it, but I've never seen a Mystic Snake in any Type I deck besides Full English Breakfast...and...well...thos e Force of Wills need SOMETHING to mess with...

4. Crop Rotation - sack a land, fetch Tolarian Academy.

5. Fastbond - drawing alot of land is inevitable with all the Draw 7s in this deck, and well...that one land per turn rule slows you down...but one life isn't that much...I've taken myself down to one life before, between Fastbond and the four Cities of Brass.

6. Frantic Search - draw two cards, discard two cards. Untap up to three lands. Cost 2U. Should read as "untap Tolarian Academy. Draw two cards, and then discard two cards".

7. Lingering Mirage - someone else got an Academy out? Well...I guess it's an Island now...

8. Meditate - skip your next turn, draw four cards...well, considering Academy is designed to go off entirely in one turn, skipping your next turn is kinda not a drawback now...

9. Mind Over Matter - easy win here! Braingeyser yourself for almost your entire library, and then proceed to twiddling the Tolarian Academy by discarding cards for one big, HUGE Stroke of Genius.

10. Time Spiral - more expensive Timetwister. However, Helms help with the cost, plus it untaps Academy!

11. Tinker - go fetch the Memory Jar!

12. Windfall - nice, cheap blue Draw 7. With Wheel of Fortune, Time Spiral, Timetwister, and Memory Jar...following any of those up with Windfall equals a blue Wheel of Fortune!

13. Land Base - my land base is slightly different from other land bases used in Academy decks. I run four Cities of Brass AND four Gemstone Mines, backed up by a single Undiscovered Paradise. Combined with Fastbond, Undiscovered Paradise isn't a great choice for Academy, but I needed the ninth five color land. Tolarian Academy is a must, obviously...this is an Academy deck, after all. And Strip Mine...well, that's just uncounterable Academy kill. So if Lingering Mirage gets countered, don't worry...find the Mine and strip it!

[cooberp]

We all know how the deck works.  You're pretty light on land and are likely to die to opposing Wastelands.  Helm of Awakening does not affect X costs (with 3 Helms out, 10 mana strokes you for nine).  Strip will be dead 90% of the time and you will wish it produced colored mana, most decks run 4 city 4 gemstone 2 UP and 1 or 2 underground sea.

[dandan]

I've just read Crystal Keep rulings and I can't see anything that suggests that Helms don't affect X costs. In fact there is an example of 2 Helms and a Drain Life for B doing 1 damage.

I am interested in the idea of Stripmine. I used to run it and I think I only cut it to try Lingering Mirage (I still prefer Capsize). Stripmine is a reliable way of killing Academy (barring Response) and I am curious if anyone else apart from Solaran X run it.

[Solaran_X]

I don't run Strip Mine JUST to get rid of enemy Tolarian Academies. In case you forgot, Strip Mine destroys ANY land, including Library of Alexandria, Mishr'a Factory, those new annoying ass Nantuko Monastaries, etc., etc. I have yet to NOT find a target for my Strip Mine.

As for dying to opposing Wastelands... I once played this, and had my opponent drop two Wastelands in a row, killing both lands I had out at that time ( both Gemstone Mines ). On my second turn, he sacked his Wasteland after I played my Gemstone Mine, I succeeded in going off with only Moxen and a Lotus Petal to start me off. In my experience, the eleven land build I use is best for myself.

And yes, Helms DO affect X costs. The X cost is a variable amount of mana, but once you've announced how you're going to pay for it, it becomes as if it was on the card. Braingeyser is XUU, and if you announce that you are paying 10 for X, the casting cost is essentially 10UU ( which is why a Mana Drained Stroke of Genius or Braingeyser gives you ALL the mana, including X ). With four Helms in play, the casting cost is now 6UU, allowing you to pump an extra 4 into the casting cost to make a 10UU Braingeyser draw 14 cards.

And I still argue against Undiscovered Paradise. The five color production is useful, but being returned to your hand is too much of a drawback, in my opinion. Therefore, I only run one in this deck. In my TurboLand Destruction deck, I run two because I have Exploration and Horn of Greed to back them up and turn them into lands AND drawing engines. And as for Underground Sea, I do not like being limited to two colors from one land, unless it generates a MASSIVE amount of colored mana of one color ( like Tolarian Academy ), or has a useful ability ( like Strip Mine ).

[Aant]

I just want to say that the transformational sideboard is obviously the best option. I dont think Magimaster gets that the point of it is that the control player will side out their creature control for cards that will be helpful in stopping the engine. If there is any chance of winning i would think it has to be siding in 4 negators, 3 skittering horrors, and 4 REB. If you play with the combo there is no chance to win so you might as well try to fool them.

In my opinion, however, you should disregard what i said above and this entire thread because Academy is a terrible deck. I dont see how anyone even consider a deck that will not only lose every time to blue based control, but beat itself with terribly inconsistent draws versus an aggresive deck also. If you have the power cards and want to use them all why not just play Keeper, Mono U, or even Zoo. I want all the Academy players to just admit that they play it because it is cool and that people are impressed with such a complex deck even though the deck will never win a competitive tounament.

[cooberp]

Aant--you are hideously, inexcusably incorrect by every possible empirical measure and should be banned from this board.  Academy has ONE really bad matchup--mono blue.  It can't quite take 50 percent from Keeper, but the matchup isn't bad at all--I would say no more than 60% in Keeper's favor if the Keeper player plays perfectly.  And after boarding, you both bring in REB's and that's about it, which cancel each other out.  And with a considerable amount of experience playing the deck, I've never lost 2 out of 3 to aggro in any circumstance.

[Solaran_X]

Aant, Academy is, in no way, a weak deck. In fact, I'm still lost as to why it's only a Tier 2 deck in the Type I environment. Against anything but Control, Academy as a damned good chance of willing, maybe as high as 75%, depending on the aggro player you're sitting opposite of.

Academy, on average, goes off on the second or third turn ( although I've had games where I didn't go off until fifth or sixth turn, because I couldn't draw any Draw-7s and all I had in hand were two Meditates ). Against an aggro deck, that is a slaughter.

Against Control, Academy has some problems. But that is why there are two Abeyances maindecked, and usually two Abeyances sideboarded. A regular control deck, with eight to ten counterspells, is a fair matchup against Academy, which can still lock down it's opponent on it's turn to go off by Abeyancing. Beyond that, there are four Force of Wills to back that up ( although it's unlikely you'll have all four in hand at once ).

As cooberp said, mono-blue ( which I still refer to as Permission ) is Academy's only bad matchup, because of the high number of counterspells ( 20 - 30 ). Against a mono-blue Permission deck, Academy would have to have a first turn go off, second at best, in order to guarantee it's win, and definately try to lock down it's opponent with an Abeyance.

[Mellow D]

Solaran_X:  I think that Academy has trouble against any deck with Force of Will handy.  This would include Keeper and OSE as well.  That being said, I don't think it's necessarily a bad matchup, but I think the Academy player will have to up their playing level.

Edit: Please no "btw" or otherwise off topic questions. There is nothing wrong with making a thread in the vintage forum to ask the question. Unless of course you are lazy...\n\n

[ErikHo]

Question: has anyone tried Trade Routes in Neo Academy? I've been testing it, and it seems to me another way to get a lot of mana out of academy, with Fastbond. It also helps after a not so good draw7. Also, Library of Alexandria becomes a serious option, for the same reason: Fastbond. What do you guys think?

[cooberp]

I think you should try playing Academy yourself for awhile.  If you don't then want to delete that suggestion, I'll tell you why it's bad.

Nothing wrong with trying to be innovative, but you're barking up the wrong tree and your efforts are better spent elsewhere.

[CrazyCarl]

ErikHo: I don't think CooberP's reply was directed at you.  I think it was directed at Aant for an earlier reply.

As for something useful to add to the discussion() I've given up on Academy for now due to some horrific draws i've had recently, as well as some less than optimal play from myself.  I also needed some practice playing with Keeper again, so that may have influenced my change.

I still believe Academy is a VERY strong deck.  I just really, REALLY hate stalling out, which happened to me a few times last week and I got somewhat frustrated and gave up  

Carl

[cooberp]

No, it was for ErikHo.  Again, not to be rude or disrespectful, I just think his creative efforts are better served elsewhere.

Carl, are you playing Academy IRL or on Apprentice?  If you play IRL and are a very good shuffler, you never stall out once you get going.

[Zherbus]

It really isnt an issue of him shuffling...hes playing a limping academy deck with no Candelabras  That tends to make going off a bit harder.

Anyways, I've decided to cut this topic off as beating a dead horse this much makes for too many messes I have to clean up. Nothing new and innovative is really happening, and people seem to just be grabbing at random cards to make this deck better. The thread has degenerated into a simple pissing match anyways. I expect this discussion to continue with CooberP's primer.

Closed