Forbidian - which build is best and is it tier 1?

[the phoenix]

Hello fellow MDers! I feel that U/r Forbidian is a better deck then it is given credit for, and I'd like to hear your opinions on a number of topics regarding U/r Forbidian.

For reference, here's my current decklist for a balanced metagame:

4x Mana Leak
4x Mana Drain
4x Force of Will
2x Misdirection
3x Morphling
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Capsize
4x Ophidian
2x Merchant Scroll

1x Gorilla Shaman
1x Prophetic Bolt
4x Fire/Ice

1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Strip Mine
3x Wasteland
4x Volcanic Island
4x Shivan Reef
7x Island

sideboard:
3x Blood Moon
4x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroclasm
4x Flametongue Kavu
1x Hydroblast
1x Scrying Glass

Probably the most heavily debated topic with regards to Forbidian is whether or not it's better off with or without the red splash. I, for one, think that the red splash improves almost all of it's match-ups and makes a world of difference. I'll start by addressing it's match-ups against the three most prominent aggro decks, namely sui, stompy, and sligh.

The general strategy against sui is to counter their early discard and then deal with their creatures with Fire/Ice, PBolt, Phids, and Morphs. Often, turbo Morphling is a successful tactic to use if you have the hand for it. U/r Forbidian is stronger then mono-U against sui since it runs Fire/Ice in place of Keg, and as we all know the diverse CC of sui's threats makes it extremely resistant to keg. Fire/Ice, on the other hand, kills Zombies (for those of you who run them), Hyppies, Shades, and sometimes first turn Negators. Additionally, PBolt is obviously deadly against Negators. After board you have Flametongues, which are DA BOMB. they take out any of sui's creatures, remain as solid blockers (or attackers if the situation calls for it), and sometimes make your opponent side out Negators game 3 in favour of War Beasts.  Red also gives you Pyroclasm which is quite strong.

Against stompy Pyroclasm becomes your best friend, being able to take out 16 to 24 of their creatures (depending on the build). Flametongues also help out after board, but with a 4CC they're sometimes too late. I will admit that Keg is much better then Fire/Ice, seeing as how almost all of stompy's creatures are 1CC and Keg can't be counter-acted with pump. Because of this I'd have to say that, in splashing red, you lose a bit of ground against stompy; but you have to remember that sui is a hell of a lot more prominent than stompy.

Against sligh, Flametongues *and* Pyroclasms *and* Fire/Ices are your best friend. Notice how those are all red cards? The fact of the matter is that sligh will burn out your Phid as soon as you put one down and, without her (him?) to net you card advantage, you usually won't be able to hang around for the late game without getting burned out. This is why Flametongue is so good vs sligh, because it helps you transform Forbidian into an aggro-control deck (that wins faster), which is what you need to do to beat sligh. Should you try to protect your Phid in the sligh match-up? Well I'd say no if you're in the early game and yes if you're in the mid/late game, since it's in the later that you'll realistically have a counter for each of their burn spells directed at your Phid. Let sligh's early creatures in, leaving your mana open to counter Scrolls (which are certainly problematic - but Gorilla Shaman helps out there) and PoPs, deal with the creatures using your red cards, and then lay down a Phid or a Morph and protect it with those counters that you haven't been using much of. The match-up still isn't great, but the red splash helps a lot.

Against control and combo, red gives you access to Blood Moon and REB. Blood Moon stalls all those scrubby multi-coloured Dragon decks enough for you to build up a solid defense against anything they can muster out and, as the game progresses, so does your chance of winning. Agaisnt the U/B Dragon deck (Legend's deck, for example) I have yet to test, quite frankly because I think Dragon decks are a horrible influence on T1 and I dislike them a lot. All the experience that I have of this match-up is from facing them at my local tournaments. Whatever the case may be, this match-up should still be heavily in your favour, as I believe even Legend (a big supporter of Dragon decks) has stated. Against Neo-Academy, red makes you lose your wrecking ball (Keg) and you get REB in it's place. While this isn't a good trade-off by any means, you should also beat Academy, either way, pretty consistently.

Against keeper, a match-up which isn't as easy as people make it out to be, Shaman shines, Fire/Ice isn't dead (while Keg pretty much is), REB offers better counters, and Blood Moon is as good as B2B; the same applies to OSE and mono-U Forbidian. U/r Forbidian has favourable match-ups against all three of these decks.

Taking all of this into account (especially it's resiliance against sui), I'd say that U/r Forbidian is definitely tier 1, the mono-U version being either tier 2 or possibly tier 1.5. On the issue of running or not running Forbidian, I absetively posolutely think that they're essential to the deck. They've saved me more times then I can count by stalling opposing creatures, getting me back into the game after being down card advantage-wise, and just plain owning. I really don't think that their inclusion into the deck should be in dispute...but if you do then I'd like to hear why.

I'd be interested to hear what *you* think about all of this. Am I just another crack ball or do I actually know what I'm talking about? Is Forbidian actually tier 1? Is the red splash indeed advantageous? I'd especially like to hear opinions on the Nether Void, Funker, and Stacker match-ups, since I have yet to test these (for most part because they aren't present in my metagame). Post away and thanks for reading!

PS - If I sound like I know everything there is to know about the deck, that's not my intention. I'm trying to use big words and a professional writing style to make this text fit for the *extreme* vintage forum, and I wouldn't want my doing so to give the wrong impression. \n\n

[Izihobip, Harbinger of Do]

This deck looks mostly kosher - I like the build.
However, I must ask why you chose not to include Stroke of Genius (or Braingeyser). Ophidian nets you cards, but he isn't exactly invincible or 100% successful, if you know what I mean.

Sometimes you just need a burst of cards, especially with four Mana Drain and two Merchant Scroll.

Also, the lone Skeletal Scrying in the sideboard is getting at me - is it a good luck charm of sorts, or is it there to see if anyone actually scrutinizes your deck?

[the phoenix]

Oops, I meant Scrying glass. It's been edited accordingly.

There have been many times that I've wished I was running Stroke, but over all I don't think it fits. I already run two Merchant Scrolls that can either fetch FoF or Ancestral Recall and, like you said, the Phids. The deck is so tight it just comes down to whether or not I think I need more card drawing or more counter/utility/business spells (and this deck needs a lot of counters since it doesn't have as many answers as say, keeper). Too much card drawing is a bad thing since it limits the amount of brokenness that you can cram into your deck, is dead early on (Stroke), and/or ties up your mana early on (Impulse). I just feel that I have the perfect balance of card drawing spells vs. non card drawing spells not running Stroke (or Geyser for that matter, which is even worse then Stroke).

[Gilindon]

I know we have discussed this deck before and generally we are in agreement.  A suggestion I would like to make is that you try out Earthquake in the SB.  Personally, I have found it more effective than Pyroclasm.  But I guess if you are already running FTK, I don't how much more effective it can be.  In my SB, I run 4 Kegs and 2 Earthquakes instead of the FTK and Pyroclasm.

[jmagic]

the deck looks solid, i am running something similar but with 2 morphling and a masticore and cunning wish instead of capsize with stroke and capsize both on sb.

[walking dude]

I like Urphiddian, and its one of my test decks. But I can’t honestly say its tier one.

1. The match up against slight is not good enough for it to be tier one. Although I haven’t really tried boarding into aggro control, so that might change things.

2. Its also worth noting that this deck doesn’t have the same crunch power as keeper. Lack of mindtwist really hurts. As does the lack of yawgwin and even balance. If you tap out against ur it really can’t punish you the way decks with black can. That means that combo decks and even other control decks can play a lot more agresivly and so UR will drop a lot more matches then decks with black.

To me tier one is
66% (quite good) v sligh
50% (ok) v keeper
50% (ok) v combo
60% (good) v sui or stopmpy
70%  (very good) everything else

[the phoenix]

Gilindon - Hmmmm...I'll try Earthquake out, although I don't think off-hand that it would be better then Pyroclasm.

jmagic - Masticore is just too dead in the control match-up, although it would certainly help out against sligh. I might try sideboarding it for that very purpose. The cunning wish idea sounds really interesting, except for the fact that my sideboard is pretty tight as it is. I'll try it out, though.

walking dude - First, "urphidian"...wow that's a lot easier and much more practical then typing "U/r Forbidian"; I like it! Second, I really disagree with your second statement when you say that U/r Forbidian will drop a lot more matches then control decks that run black. Urphidian sacrifices random brokenness (like Mind Twist) for slow but stable card advantage that will eventually overwhelm your opponent. True, other control decks can afford to tap out more aggressively against urphidian, but they also have a lower rate of success when they tap out since urphidian runs more counters then them. Urphidian is very different from keeper or OSE and must accordingly be played differently. That doesn't mean it's worse.

[FeverDog]

Phoenix, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, you are a scrub and you know it!!  


Seriously though, i have to agree with Andrew on this one, the deck may not be quite as good as Keeper but it is definetly better than MonoU Phid. I am running an unpowered version which is almost identical and it has performed well for me.

Also, i know Andrew doesnt like to brag, so i will do it for him. This deck has won him the last two T1 tourneys he has attended, beating a variety of decks ranging from WW to Keeper. Point being... the kid knows what hes talking about.

[FeverDog]

Basically i just replace the Moxen with some Islands and a Mountain or two. I switch the Ancestral with a Stroke(not the greatest) and i run a lone Impulse in favor of Time Walk. Obviously this makes the deck slower but the only card that i truly miss is Ancestral, in fact, i plan on getting one before christmas. I also like to run a second Shaman in place of the second Scroll, which isnt worth it because i dont run Ancestral.

[jmagic]

i dont think that masticore is necessarily dead against control, just not nearly as effective as it would be against a creature deck, but my metagame has some sligh, and masticore eats sligh alive, especially when i draw a few moxes and can lay it turn 2-3.  i think that against a control matchup, this deck does pretty well as long as you can get 1-2 phids out.

i think that the match up against sligh is actually pretty good.  first game, you can take out their 1 defense creatures that slip by with fire/ice, usually taking two out at once, and letting the burn hit you initially, countering only damage that can be recursive such as creatures or cursed scroll.  Doing this usually lets you live long enough to get a phid or two out, and these should be protected.  eventually you draw 2-3 cards a turn, most of which are counters to answer their spells.  i think that i beat sligh well over 50% of the time, but maybe the sligh i face arent up to par...?

[Greven]

Masticore isn't dead against control. It's a 4/4 for 4 that has a drawback.

Either way though, I like these kind of decks, but is it just me or wouldn't it be more worth it to play mono-blue and Back to Basics? I don't know, it's probably worth it to play the second color. I don't know if red is the best though, both black and white are also very strong.

[FeverDog]

The reason Red is preferred over the other colors is that you get to sb Blood Moon which is just as devastating as B2B. Also, Red gives you some of the best anti-control and anti-aggro options like REB, FTK and Fire/Ice.

[bebe]

I am a big fan of U/r decks in general and they are the toughest matchup for my fish deck by far. I have to say though that I love it when they play 'Phids. We all play man-lands here and a few psi-blasts (mono-blue) or bolts (U/r). The bolts are usually in the side with the FTKs and Fire/Ice main. So Phids do not last long. That being said, I like your build. It looks well thought out.
I have toyed with Mana Leaks in my builds and keep changing them to Disrupts or Dazes. In counter wars I want the cheapest spell (daze) and early on the Disrupts stop Duress, Fire/Ice, Hymns, etc.
I like your sideboard but would also use Earthquake over Pyroclasms but Bolts over both.
The last three tournaments in Toronto have been dominated by U/r and U/r/b decks. Only my fish deck broke the top four only to lose to U/r. I think it is one of the strongest archtypes out there and I commend you on your results.

[the phoenix]

OK, Pyroclasms out, Earthquakes in. I'm doing this mainly because you can pump Earthquake for a big Negator wooping and can cast it for one so that your Flametongues stay alive.

Disrupt is extremely interesting. The problem I see with it isn't whether or not it's good enough to make the cut, but whether or not I have enough room for them. In mid/late game I'd just cycle them and, since they'd be replacing hard counters (Mana Leaks), I would have a smaller number of counters overall. Only time will tell on this one.

[FeverDog]

Jesus Phoenix, where have you been for the last week?

I thought maybe you died, but then the Phoenix always rises \n\n

[Greven]

Well, you're right, Blood Moon is just as good as B2B. I guess that's why this works so well.

Do you want 4 Phids? You might only need 3, but you can run 4 if you think you need them. This deck can just draw an abusive amount of cards though...

BTW, who designs the smilies?

         

Coolest smilie I think I have ever seen.

[specialk]

earthquakes can't hit hippies and aren't an instant and to do 3 to a negator you pay four which won't happen any time quick since mono black play 5 strips and 4 sinkholes so lightbning bolts are the way to go. if you want card advantage take out the prophetic bolt for dwarven miner and side another 1 in place of 1 blood moon because against keeper blood moon=scoop and find more room for and shaman in the sideboard to assure a raw of 1 against keeper. I built a U/r red and here is the sideboard i used
3 rootwater theif(keeper, mono u)
2 pyroblast(mono u)
2 Red Elemental Blast(mono u)
4 lightning bolts(black, stompy, sligh, gay fish)
1 Gorilla shaman(keeper, anything full power)
1 dwarven miner(keeper, any thing with no basics)
2 Blue elemental blast(red)

[spin13]

Though my experience against T1 Sligh with this deck isn't large, I've tested a very similar Extended version of this deck against a fairly similar Extended Sligh (Cadets, PoPs, etc)deck.  I must say I faired fairly well, only losing 1 in 4 games because I forgot to side in Hydroblasts and their Red Blasts beat me up badly!

Quote
Phoenix, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, you are a scrub and you know it!!  

I totally agree.  I've even seen this guy posting on MOTL!

Anyway, I'm curious how you side against Keeper?  Specifically, I'm wondering what you take out to fit Scrying Glass (as thats the match its most useful in)?  I like the Glass myself, but don't see much opportunity for you to bring it in, except against Mono-U, where I'd think it would be the weakest (out of the major control decks that is).

 -Eric

[the phoenix]

Feverdog -

Greven - Damn staight, this deck can indeed draw an abusive amount of cards, in part because it runs four Phids!

specialk - Hmmmm...Lightning Bolt? I'll try it out. As for Blood Moon, I don't think that there's enough keeper in the average/ideal metagame to warrant four in the board, and certainly not enough in my metagame. And you *need* Flametongues.

spin - against keeper: +3 Blood Moon, +4 REB, +1 Scrying Glass, -4 Fire/Ice, -1 Prophetic Bolt, -1 Capsize, -2 Mana Leak

MOTL?!  That's crazy, I don't go there! (ignore sig)

[Criticism]

Quote
4x Mana Leak
4x Mana Drain
4x Force of Will
2x Misdirection
3x Morphling
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Capsize
4x Ophidian
2x Merchant Scroll

1x Gorilla Shaman
1x Prophetic Bolt
4x Fire/Ice

1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Strip Mine
3x Wasteland
4x Volcanic Island
4x Shivan Reef
7x Island

sideboard:
3x Blood Moon
4x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroclasm
4x Flametongue Kavu
1x Hydroblast
1x Scrying Glass

Hey phoenix.  I do like this deck.  I have a few questions though.  I noticed you do not run any impulses in it.  I think the synergy between the extra scroll and your Fire/Ices and Prophetic Bolts is great, but I was wondering if you had troulbe finding your one-ofs, like gorilla shaman or LoA.

Also, I am skeptical of the use of capsize.  Seems like you need 6 mana before capsize becomes card parity.  What are good targets for capsize?

Have you considered Teferi's response?  It seems like it would work well with your 2 scrolls.

Finally, how do you sideboard?

Thanks.

[the phoenix]

Criticism - Well often I'd wish that I had LoA in hand, but what can you do? As for Shaman, I actually don't run any MD since my meta isn't powered enough...I used to think that it was a logical choice but no more...I explain below (that's the only difference bewteen this decklist and the one I use IRL).

Capsize is amazing. If nothing else, it gives you something to do at the end of your opponent's turn, and at best it allows you to deal with pesky artifacts/enchantments that enchantress, parfait, and random rogue/scrub decks run. Before I say anything else, here's my latest decklist:

4x Mana Leak
4x Mana Drain
4x Force of Will
2x Misdirection
3x Morphling
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Fact or Fiction
4x Ophidian
2x Merchant Scroll
1x Cunning Wish

4x Fire/Ice

2x Powder Keg

1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Strip Mine
3x Wasteland
4x Volcanic Island
4x Shivan Reef
7x Island

sideboard:
4x Blood Moon
4x Red Elemental Blast
4x Flametongue Kavu
1x Stroke of Genius
1x Capsize
1x Prophetic Bolt

On Shaman - I'm not convinced that he belongs in urphidian. Kegs take care of Scrolls and other troublesome artifacts, and you sorta need to run at least 2 Shamans to draw em when you need em. That's a lot of slots to devote to a card that's sub-par in a number of match-ups. In the right metagame I suppose it's worth while...but in a general metagame, I'm not so sure anymore.

On Kegs - thanks to kirdape3 for suggesting it to me. I passed over it so many times thinking Fire/Ice > Keg, but then he helped me realize that Keg's function in this deck isn't so much creature control as it is "general purpose utility".

On Cunning Wish - It makes for a more compact deck, giving me room for the Kegs. I don't lose anything except for three as it was iffy sideboard slots.

Yes, I've considered Response, but I'm tapped out too much casting Phid, Ice during the upkeep, and now Keg. Plus urphidian's mana base can withstand a Wasteland far better then say, keeper or OSE. And no it wouldn't work well with Merchant Scroll, since Scroll is a Sorcery.

As for boarding, I'll have to adjust to my new sideboard and get back to you on that.

I'm still interested in hearing what other people think of this archetype (read: U/r control). Is it tier 1? I'm convinced it is, now more then ever.

[CrazyCarl]

Quote (arkane8 @ Aug. 07 2002,09:23)If you run this deck as is, the Mana Drains are not effective, seeing you have not much to pump your mana into (sure you have Force and Misdirection, but counters are usually on the opponent's turn, not yours..Capsize and FoF is usually at end of turns also). If you prefer to run Drains then throw in Stroke. Otherwise, use regular Counterspells.

Furthermore, if you throw in so many Moxen and Lotus (and Scrying Glass) then add a Tolarian Academy.

The Time Walk is not effective here. Use impluse (some even run Intuition or Frantic Search). Capsize is good, it's a good board removal when you have the mana build (always cast with buyback and end of turn unless in desperate situations). I'm not sure about adding the red element, I'd rather throw in Black. Sure direct damage is always good, but wouldn't Mind Twist and Duress be more effective? The twist and duress always give you an upper hand in counter wars. Black also allows room for more tutors.

If you go monoblue, you would add another capsize and 4 extracts to weaken the opponent's deck and take out the most feared cards. Against a similar deck, extracting out your opponent's Morphlings is a game ender. And I'd still rather run Serendib Efreets rather than direct damage. It adds a more aggressive element to the deck and also serves as a temporary blocker.


Just my two cents.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Much wrong with this post.  So very, very much.  Ok, ill work from the top, down.

Mana Drains: In a real type 1 metagame, on average, you'll most likely be getting 2-3 mana.  Sometimes you get 5+ from Draining an opponent's Force of Will, but normally, it's 2-3.  Now, what in our lovely deck can we use 2-3 generic mana on? Ophidian, Powder Keg, Merchant Scroll, Morphling, Fire/Ice, Time Walk and whatever else I didn't care to mention.  Not running Mana Drain would just be plain, flat out stupid.

Tolarian Academy:  I suppose you could run it if you really wanted to.  Problem is it's a nonbasic and can be ruined by a well placed Keg or Shaman.  I don't think the risk outwieghs the benefits in this type of deck.

Time Walk:  What ever crack you're smoking, KEEP ME AWAY FROM IT.  Think about it.  The synergy between Time Walk and Ophidian is just CRAZY!  You get a free untap, and then draw 1-5 cards on the Time Walk turn!  This in addition to all the great benefits of this card.  A simpler way to put this: The rule of the game is 1 turn per player.  Breaking the rules is VERY GOOD.

As for adding black: It's been done, the deck is called OSE.  You only make it worse by adding more counters.  Adding discard(especially duress) and taking out creature control is just absurd.  How do you plan on dealing early creatures? Your 2 Powder Kegs?  As for using Impulse(Intuition or god forbid, FRANTIC SEARCH!?! Again with the crack ) there is just no room for them.

EDIT: Yes, the black element DOES give you an upper hand in counter wars, but this deck(and by saying this deck, I mean something base blue with 14+ counters) is already very strong vs. control.  Why not play a color which can help against aggro which the deck is not so strong against?

As for going Mono Blue with EXTRACT: Isn't it just better to just... counter the spell?  As for the Serendibs: They're Red Blastable and die to the Abyss, Plow etc. 'Nuff said.

Anyways.

ThePhoenix: Deck looks pretty solid to me! I'd build it, but I can't find 4 Shivan Reefs for 4 Flametonge Kavu ;\.  Have you gotten to play with it at all yet?

Carl

EDIT: I am doing housekeeping and removal of comments that I deem unworthy. Arkane8's post was deleted. I WILL however leave CrazyCarls post, because it does address what should be common sense.

[the phoenix]

CrazyCarl - lol, you can easily buy those cards off the net for $15-$20 shipped, likely closer to $15. I've played with the deck a lot. I've played it for the last three months and in the last three tournaments. Something must be right about it, cause I've finished 1st, 1st, and 2nd! btw, thanks for taking that last post for me

[whienot]

How well do the Flametongues work. I can see the purpose using them I just seems like they would be better off as something else.  

Does the Cunning Wish help out enough with your sideboard.


whienot

[the phoenix]

Flametongue Kavus work extremely well, especially against sui. Running FtKs (and Fire/Ice) means that you don't have to worry about countering every single creature spell your opponent casts, since you cand deal with it once it's in play. This enables you to counter the bigger threats like Hymn and PoP. FtKs also catch the opponent off guard a lot of the time.

In theory, yes, Cunning Wish helps out enough to be included into the deck. However, this is a new change and I still have to test it more to find out for sure.

[spin13]

I recently put together U/r Ophidian again (after taking it apart after losing to x/3 power critters left and right), and was just checking up on this post.  I am beginning to think that 4 F/I, 2 Keg is the right way to go (I tried it before, but still wasn't completely happy because of space issues), but I am thinking that the Shaman can indeed get cut.  Overall, I like these changes.

Two things I have questions about.  One is whether or not you feel that Forbid, at one copy, is worth playing (with Merchant Scrolls or Cunning Wish).  I am currently trying it over a maindeck Capsize, but have yet to really come to a conclusion.

Second, has Cunning Wish really been effective?  If it has, what is your current, or at least a basic example of your current sideboard?  While the Tutor-chain in OSE has been effective at times (though rather slow and hard to actually use without dying), I'm wondering if the same can and does work for urphidian?

Thanks
 -Eric\n\n

[the phoenix]

Spin - I don't think Forbid belongs in this deck at all. In the early game, it's nothing more then an over costed vanilla counterspell. In the mid/late game, I either have my hand full of cards (many of them being counters) from swinging with Phids or drawing from LoA and I don't need a buyback counter, or I'm not doing well and I'm trying to build up some sort of card advantage (in which case paying the buyback to forbid is the last thing I want to do). Also, this deck is different from mono-U in that it doesn't have to counter everything, it can just deal with threats directly through Fire/Ice, FtK, PBolt, Morph, and now Keg.

And yes, Cunning Wish has been very effective. It's allowed me to condense my deck without losing any part of it, which in turn allowed me to run the pair of Kegs. Plainly and simply, it's 3 cards in 1, and I was never really sure what to do with those last few sideboard slots anyways. My sideboard is the same one posted with my above decklist:

4x Blood Moon
4x Red Elemental Blast
4x Flametongue Kavu
1x Stroke of Genius
1x Capsize
1x Prophetic Bolt

[BigChuck]

I was doing some playtesting against Spin's Ophidian and i definitely feel that the forbid is unnecessary. It don't remember him ever paying the buyback on it, because, as you said, the rest of his cards were other counters, or something to the bolt extent. I also agree with your sentiments on the cunning wish. With a Stroke, Bolt, and capsize in the board, it just seems to fit better then the forbid. At worst, he can get one of those cards with the wish and then go find a counter, but I never remember him being short.

[Forbiddian]

You are right, this smiley is da bomb  

This is my first post, so I'd like it to be something about my favorite deck.

I'm probably really stupid to say this, but I don't see the point of adding red.

pros:
+ does better vs. most decks (cards are more powerfull)
+ increases speed esp. post SB when needed
+ looks cool to have a two color deck instead of boring old mono

cons:
- dead cards aka: Price, wasteland, B2B, blood moon = return of the living dead cards
- less consistent (color screw, less counters than I run  , cards come in packs of four less).

Neutrals:
Same cards hose you
More choices
More like keeper, but less powerful EDIT: than keeper


Come back and tell me why it's worth splashing. I value consistency over anything else (other than the broken-ness of da restricted list).

[BigChuck]

If nothing else, splashing is worth it in the board. The blasts are obvious. The blood moons are very good against a lot of decks, while not hurting you a whole hell of a lot. After all, most of the time you use your non basics to get red mana. If this resolves against something like keeper, you win. The Flametongues are also simply a beating against aggro.

If you want to talk about the maindeck, then you get fun stuff like shaman, and fire/ice. The shaman can help you out against a lot of decks, and the fire/ice is amazingly versatile. I've heard prophetic bolt was some good too.