Keeper Sideboard Options

[LoA]

I have been away from the States (and Magic) for some time, but I'm looking forward to getting back to NH and MA this Fall.  I've been a longtime Keeper player and although my current version is fairly predictable (I have no idea what the local metagames are like) I was wondering how people sideboarded for various match-ups.  For reference, here's the deck and sideboard:

Blue (19)
4x Mana Drain
4x Force of Will
2x Morphling
1x Misdirection
1x Teferi's Response
1x Braingeyser
1x Stroke of Genius
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Fact or Fiction

Black (5)
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Mind Twist
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x The Abyss
1x Diabolic Edict

Red (1)
1x Gorilla Shaman

Split (1)
1x Fire/Ice

Green (2)
1x Regrowth
1x Sylvan Library

White (3)
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Balance
1x D. Blow

Artifact (1)
1x Zuran Orb

Sideboard (15)
2x Powder Keg
4x Red Elemental Blast
2x Dwarven Miner
2x CoP: Red
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Aura Fracture
1x Moat
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Pyroclasm

Here's how I was thinking about sideboarding vs. the mirror match:

In: 4x ReB and 2x Miner
Out: 1x Mystical, 1x Fire/Ice, 1x ZOrb, 1x Abyss, 1x Balance, 1x StP

Some thoughts: I would like to work in a Scrying Glass, but what would I take out of the SB and what additional card would I take out of maindeck?  I would also like to try to work the Fire/Ice back in the deck for the mirror so I can shoot down Miners and Shaman (and try to avoid the MisD).  Given the above cards, how would you SB for match-ups like:
Tubbies
Sligh
Zoo
Stompy
Parfair
Void
Suicide
whatever deck I can't think of right now

I have yet to buy/test Cunning Wish, so that might change things, but assume this is the deck you've been given to work with.

[LoA]

After extensive testing, I found this deck works better with a mana base of:

4x City of Brass
4x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland
3x Tundra
3x Underground Sea
1x Strip Mine
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Undiscovered Paradise
7x SoLoMox

[spin13]

I would probably not side out your Balance.  Not only is it good defense against possible sideboarding tactics by the opponent, but its a Mind Twist and an Edict as well.  As such, I'd think keeping it in as a non-Blastable card, it'd be worth only bringing in 3 REBs and 2 Miners (which should be more than enough).

As for other matchups, I'd probably do this:

Tubbies:
-1 Misdirection
-1 T.Response
-1 The Abyss
-1 Mind Twist (if non-Red) Stroke/Geyser (if Red)
+1 Swords
+1 Moat
+2 Powder Keg

Sligh:
-1 Swords
-1 D.Blow
-1 T.Response
-1 Regrowth
-1 Gorilla Shaman
+2 COP:Red
+2 Powder Keg
+1 Pyroclasm

Zoo:
-1 D.Blow
-1 Misdirection
-1 Braingeyser
-1 Gorilla Shaman
+1 Swords
+1 Pyroclasm
+2 Powder Keg

Stompy:
-1 D.Blow
-1 T.Response
-1 Misdirection
-1 Gorilla Shaman
-1 Braingeyser
+2 Powder Keg
+1 Moat
+1 Swords
+1 Pyroclasm

Parfait:
-1 Edict
-1 Fire/Ice
-1 Swords
-1 Misdirection
+1 Aura Fracture
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Powder Keg

Void:
-1 Gorilla Shaman
-1 Braingeyser
+1 Aura Fracture
+1 Swords

Suicide:
-1 Gorilla Shaman
-1 Braingeyser
-1 Stroke of Genius
+1 Swords
+1 Moat
+1 Pyroclasm

Mono-U Ophidian:
-1 Fire/Ice
-1 Swords
-1 ZOrb
-1 Gorilla Shaman
+4 REB

Thats probably what I would do, though I only play OSE, and don't use Green and White.  There might be one or two questionable calls, but I'd like to think most of them are fairly certain.  Hope that helps.

 -Eric

[LoA]

First off, thanks for the reply, it's greatly appreciated.

If I can play devil's advocate for a second (and try to generate some discourse), I was thinking that vs. Sligh I would side something like:

-1 Mind Twist
-1 Gorilla Shaman
-1 Regrowth
-1 Geyser
-1 T. Response (for game 2, depending on the board Sligh uses)

+2 CoP
+2 Keg
+1 Pyroclasm

For a deck that empties its hand fairly fast, I don't think Mind Twist merits staying in, and (although this is very situational) sometimes it just ends up fueling their Cursed Scrolls.

Speaking of Cursed Scrolls, even with the 2 Kegs, I want some means of dealing with it, so I keep the D. Blow in.  A good Sligh player will be able to drop threats slowly to play around the Keg, and this is a nice back-up.

Braingeyser is generally too slow and clunky in the Sligh matchup.  It's best suited post-Mana Drain and there are very few spells in Sligh that are really solid fuel for a decent 'geyser.

Taking out the T. Response might leave me vulnerable to Miners, but I leave the StP in there for the spot removal (gets the edge since it can't be blasted), which I need sometimes vs. Miners and Shaman (thinking Kaplan Sligh here)

[spin13]

Why I left the Geyser in over the Swords in the Sligh matchup is beyond me.  However, the argument for keeping Mind Twist is this:  many Sligh decks will board out as many as eight burn spells for Red Blasts.  Because of their (Red Blasts) cheap nature, there are situations where the Sligh player can sit around and out-counter you if you aren't bringing in Blue Blasts of your own.  In situations like these, it is the non-Blue spells that make all the difference: your Abyss, ZOrb, and Mind Twist.  Not only is Mind Twist effective at snagging a Fireblast or two, but it clears their hand of all the Red Blasts they may just be sitting on even after you've resolved something like COP:Red or The Abyss.

For a little supporting proof, even decks like Academy side in a copy of Mind Twist for the pesky mono-Red matchup, where they know they are going to be facing a plethora of Red Blasts.

And if you're keeping one or the other of D.Blow or Shaman, I would probably keep in the Shaman unless you highly suspect them of playing Blood Moon (though that is rarely the case in Sligh, because of its high casting cost).  Shaman kills Scrolls for only 1 more mana, but it also means that as the Scroll dies either the Scroll itself or a subsequent Bolt is aimed at the Shaman and not you.  Of course, you should keep the Shaman in your hand as though it were a Sorcery and save it only for Scrolls (making sure at least 1 Scroll dies before the Shaman does).

Hope that makes sense to both you and any other Keeper players.  If somebody thinks I'm wrong, please let me know!
 -Eric

[jpmeyer]

You can safely cut Sylvan against Sligh and Stacker.

[LoA]

Nice point about the overload in ReB...Kaplan's Sligh runs 8 (now 7, I guess).  So out with the Library and in with the Mind Twist.

Now I just have to figure out what else to side in vs. Stacker, assuming the Library also comes out.

Misdirection stays in: Bolting the Welders and Juggernauts is always good.

Aura Fracture: Blood Moon, Blood Moon, Blood Moon

I'm leaning towards Aura Fracture just because I have various means of dealing with creatures already..thoughts?

[Cuandoman]

Aura Fracture is like an insurance policy. Without it your much more likely to get fucked in the ass by BM, B2B or some guy with an afro --->  . With it, you can throw it down and laugh as their "anti-keeper shiznit" gets brushed off like dust in the wind.

On the other hand if they know the true tech --->   you have no chance

[Solaran_X]

In my Keeper sideboard, I've included a single Seedtime to discourage end-of-turn Fact or Fictions and Ancestral Recalls. Against mirror matchups, I've seen game 3 ( if it went that far ) opponents NEVER cast an end of turn Fact or Fiction or Ancestral Recall if I had any cards in hand...one of them could be a Seedtime, and well...I go again! Two TIme Walks in one deck...I've found that to be very, very useful.

[spin13]

Wouldn't Mana Short accomplish the same thing as Seedtime?  Sure, its got the disadvantage of being Blastable and being 1 extra mana, but its:

1) Castable when -you- want it to be
2) Pitchable
3) Merchant Scrollable
4) completely taps them out (sure, Seedtime might give you an extra attack with Morphling now and then, but I see its main use being "Oh, you tapped out, now I get to untap")

 -Eric

[Luc, Use The Force]

Spin13:

Why side in kegs against Parfait... once the pegasi army is made, it's over... and you'll need time to kill a scroll rack.

I'd let the Misdirection in against Finds.

[LoA]

Reading over Legend's Suicide Black primer, I'm a little concerned that my SB doesn't really offer all that much to help vs. this deck.  I was thinking about switching the Moat for an Ensnaring Bridge, leaving me with Pyroclasm to deal with Sligh, Zoo, etc.  All of this really depends on what the Concord, NH metagame is (home of one Zherbus if I`m not mistaken), but for a general metagame this might be a good call as well.  

I just hate taking Moat out...it's won me so many games over the years

EDIT I realize this might be total jank, but would Meekstone work better vs. Legend Suicide?  It doesn't do much vs. Shades and Hippies, but neither does the bridge.  Plus, it's much easier to cast.

[Radjammin]

Quote (LoA @ July 30 2002,06:43)EDIT I realize this might be total jank, but would Meekstone work better vs. Legend Suicide?  It doesn't do much vs. Shades and Hippies, but neither does the bridge.  Plus, it's much easier to cast.

Light of day???  Cost 1 less white and it does the job.

[riverboa11]

Light of Day is an okay card, but it is dead against virtually everything except Legend Black.  I personally run Ensnaring Bridge in my sideboard, and it has proved succesfull time and time again.  It does wonders against Sui, and is great against any kind of workshop deck(except for the first attack with Mask.dec).

[LoA]

I've tweaked the maindeck to the tune of -2 Wasteland/+2 Mishra's Factory to combat the rise of aggro decks in type 1.  I also figured the deck was overly concerned with the mirror and need to diversify more.  With those changes, I have also changed the sideboard to:

2x Dwarven Miner
1x Pyroclasm (I really love what this card can do...ask Zherbus about my topdecking skills with this thing)
4x Red Elemental Blast
1x Aura Fracture
1x Sacred Ground (great synergy with the Mishras)
2x CoP: Red
2x Powder Keg
1x Moat (I can't bring myself to switch it for an Ensnaring Bridge, try as I might.  Plus, Moat is better vs. TnT)
1x Swords to Plowshares

[verlorene]

Quote (LoA @ Sep. 13 2002,08:30)1x Sacred Ground (great synergy with the Mishras)

Edit: Look at the eratta, it dosen't work when the land is an artifact creature and dies from fatal damage (although it would help against a disenchant type effect). Maybe I just misread your statement and the "synergy with the Mishras" meant something else, but that's what I got out of it.

Sacred Ground

Color= White  Type= Enchantment  Cost= 1W SH®/7®  
Text (7th+errata): Whenever a spell or ability an opponent controls causes a land to be put into your graveyard from play, return that land to play. [Oracle 2002/03/01]

A land creature dying due to fatal damage is not being destroyed by a spell or ability. It is being destroyed by a game rule, so this card will not trigger. [WotC Rules Team 1998/03/31]
A legendary land being put into the graveyard as a duplicate legend will not be brought back since it is being buried by a game rule. [WotC Rules Team 1998/03/31]


Have you considered using Teferi's Response instead? I run a 4 Color Keeper with 2 Mishras and a Teferi's Response main deck, I've been happy with it so far.

Quote (LoA @ Sep. 13 2002,08:30)1x Moat (I can't bring myself to switch it for an Ensnaring Bridge, try as I might.  Plus, Moat is better vs. TnT)

I've been having problems with the matchup. The standard TnT build can get around Moat with Wonder as well as Lyrist and can kill Ensnaring bridge with Welders, Shaman, and Uktabi Orangutan. I suppose Moat is slightly better but neither seem to work very well for me. I've even tried and been unsuccessful with the Power Artifact combo...problem is, I can never get it off in time.

[Zherbus]

Quote 1x Pyroclasm (I really love what this card can do...ask Zherbus about my topdecking skills with this thing)

Your at 1 life, staring down a pair of nanuko shade with me being tapped out, and you rip a pyroclasm off the top of your deck? No topdecking skills whatsoever

Quote Have you considered using Teferi's Response instead? I run a 4 Color Keeper Keeper with 2 Mishras and a Teferi's Response main deck, I've been happy with it so far.

He already has response maindeck.

Quote I've been having problems with the matchup. The standard TnT build can get around Moat with Wonder as well as Lyrist and can kill Ensnaring bridge with Welders, Shaman, and Uktabi Orangutan. I suppose Moat is slightly better but neither seem to work very well for me. I've even tried and been unsuccessful with the Power Artifact combo...problem is, I can never get it off in time.

Moat IS better against TNT, though he really ought to run some graveyard hate to combat TnT, Dragon, and other various graveyard dependant decks.

I would suggest Phyrexian Furnace, but only if he is expecting to face these decks. While dragon is more common, TnT is not only harder to build, but as a result is much more rare in the real life meta.

[verlorene]

Quote (Zherbus @ Sep. 15 2002,15:11)

Quote Have you considered using Teferi's Response instead? I run a 4 Color Keeper Keeper with 2 Mishras and a Teferi's Response main deck, I've been happy with it so far.

He already has response maindeck.

Somehow I missed it in the maindeck listing, sorry. The point of that part of the post was that Sacred Ground's "great synergy with the Mishras" isn't exceptional because of the eratta. I was hoping to clarify this with him and offer a suggestion for a replacement. Sacred Ground is still useful in certain matchups, but it offers nothing special with Mishras outside of defense from a destroy target artifact/creature spell or effect.

[Zherbus]

From what he told me, he is paranoid about actual land kill decks. I guess its less for the mishra's protection and more for actual wastelands, sinkholes, etc...

[dandan]

Quote (Zherbus @ Sep. 15 2002,19:11)

Quote 1x Pyroclasm (I really love what this card can do...ask Zherbus about my topdecking skills with this thing)

Your at 1 life, staring down a pair of nanuko shade with me being tapped out, and you rip a pyroclasm off the top of your deck? No topdecking skills whatsoever

This begs the question: Why on earth did you tap out with two shades on the table and the opponent on the ropes? Didn't you suspect Pyroclasm or even Fire/Ice? Surely leaving him on 3 and having 2 mana or not casting the second Shade would have been better.

Because I wanted to end the game before he stablized, which he did anyways. Fire/Ice wouldnt actually have grabbed both, I had 1 black left to save one. Pyroclasm was the only card to save him and he drew it Lets not get too off topic though.

-Zherbus

[LoA]

I'm thinking of cutting a ReB for a Furnace or Crypt, the local metagame (such that it is) is pretty small unless Zherbus is running a tournament and I only use the 4th blast vs. Mono-Blue.

Zherbus is quite right about my LD paranoia, it's the result of many years of living with a roommate who owned too many Sinkholes, Ice Storms, Living Planes, and Drops of Honey.  The Sacred Ground is more anti-Wasteland than anything else, although it gets me amazing branch utility (now there's an old-school Weissman phrase) vs. Void and Suicide (1 card negates 9 of theirs).  I also side it in vs. Kaplan Sligh on the assumption that they'll bring in 4 Miners (again, giving me a 1:9 branch utility advantage).  After reading all the threads detailing the "death of Keeper" and aggro decks designed to attack the Keeper's manabase, I decided to start testing this one out.

The synergy with Mishra's comment was referring to its use in control vs. control match-ups (notably certain Void builds, but also a heavy LD Keeper deck possibly--like the original version I posted).  Since Mishras can slip into play vs. these decks, most Keeper players count on Wastelands, Strip Mines, and Miners (in games 2 and 3) to deal with the annoying Factory.  Sacred Ground actually makes the Factory a serious threat since my opponent is forced to play a card from his hand to deal with it.  Generally, most of the better options have been sided out (although Zherbus' keeping of Fire/Ice in the mirror match got me thinking), so an early (and less protected) Morphling becomes a realistic possibility.

I've always liked to play my control decks with a little "passive aggro" if possible.  Control decks are best doing nothing, or better yet, forcing their opponent into acting early (assuming the control player can counter/remove his opponent's response) without adequate backup, allowing the control player to _really_ take control of the match.  Protected Mishras rarely straight out win me games (two 2/2 threats and one 1/1 threat just aren't too beefy), but they do help me gain tempo vs. control.

[GreatAngle21]

This is just my opinion but I think keeper builds need to run more aura fracture.  Maybe its just my local environment but there are a lot of keeper hate around my area.  And in random big events such as GenCon or Origins there usually are as well.  First Blood Moon and Back to Basics can usually mean Death for keeper.  

Ive played in different match ups and top decks can solve problems with certain things but Back to Basics and Blood Moon means death for keeper.  Especially blood moon.  Problem with Aura Fracture IMO is the casting cost though.  What do you guys think.  I've always thought of this since blood moon and back to basics really kill keeper.  I think running even 3 copies would be a good idea depending on the metagame.    

I also think running 2 crypts are a good thing.  Since too many decks now (parfarit, FEB, TNT, etc) utilizes the graveyard too much.  

IMO I also think Pyroclasm isn't neccessarry.  When you have kegs, abyss, moat it seems enough to me.  And it has always seemed enough to me.

[Zherbus]

I say if enchantments are being a bitch, cunning wish and allay in addition to Aura fracture should do the trick.

I would absolutely LOVE to run a pair of crypts, but unfortunatly, there isnt enough room for them. Actually phyrexian furnace still mainly gets the job done, and can cycle. I also run timetwister in the SB as more of a vice to mono-black than anything else, but it has a nice effect of kicking replenish decks, survival decks, and reanimator types in the jimmy. Against TnT, however, it really only slows em down a bit.

Pyroclasm is nastier against suicide than keg.

[LoA]

Pyroclasm has good matchups vs. Suicide, like Zherbus mentioned, and I also like it better than Keg vs. Sligh and Mongeese Zoo (although it's generally good vs. Zoo if you can keep them from threshold), since you don't have to wait for the counter next turn, which can be critical in that match.  It also nabs Miners, which can be a huge help.  Of course, it doesn't get rid of Scrolls like Keg, but that's partly why I run 2 Kegs as well.  In truth, I'm attached to the Pyroclasm (and Sacred Ground).  They've been in there for ages and have always done well for me.  If the metagame ever made it so they were less effective, I suppose I would cut one or both (if I ever played at a NG-esque metagame, for example) for better options.

[LoA]

Here's a general Keeper sideboard question for people:

Do you keep The Abyss in vs. TnT?

The knee jerk reaction is no, clearly, since all of its threats are artifact creatures.  I've yet to play this matchup (hopefully that will change next week if I can catch Zherbus), but it strikes me that some sort of passive way of dealing with Welders, Rangers, Birds, etc. is worth the card slot, leaving your StPs for the "real" threats.  With that in mind, I'd probably side something like:

Out
-1 Misdirection
-1 Teferi's Response
-  I generally try to side out blue cards when I know I'll be seeing ReBs, but the cc of some of TnTs spells makes Mana Drain+Draw X really tempting.  Am I just living in some idealized fantasy land?  I'm also thinking of cutting out the green in this matchup like I do vs. Sligh, but I'm less convinced this is a good idea since I'm guessing I'm going to need ways to bring StP back over and over.  Suggestions?
-Stroke
-Zuran Orb



In
+2 Dwarven Miner (TnT using the pain fetchlands make these even better)
+1 StP
+1 Moat (Wonder makes this weaker, but still worth it imho)
+1 Furnace

[j_orlove]

From the TnT side, abyss is a problem, but not an insurmountable one (killing my welders is very bad for me).

I'd watch out, though, if you try to play abyss and dwarven miner (lack of synergy=bad  )

Miners are the kind of card that seems bad for TnT, but really isn't. The thought of an active miner is a little frightening, but I think the deck can handle it.


My question is, do you board in Aura Fracture, or just rely on d-blow and counters to stop survival? TnT can also board blood moon, but fracture doesn't help with the threats that actually kill you.

[LoA]

My theory (and it is very much in the theory stage) was to match my 8 counters/D. Blow against TnT's 4 Survivals and try to use spot removal for the critters that my opponent casts normally, so no Aura Fracture.  Depending on what I see in game 2, game 3 might swap 1 Miner for a Fracture, but that's a situation I'd like to avoid, unless they're playing Blood Moon, which seems less frequent as more and more TnT sideboards are gearing themselves to beat Back to Basics and not Keeper (since Keeper is already a decent matchup for them).

Abyss/Miners have terrible synergy to be sure, but with the newer versions of TnT running the new fetchlands, I figure if I can kill one or two green sources/Workshops before dropping The Abyss, it's done its job well.  Plus, they can chump block and buy me time.  If I can't handle the initial wave of Juggernauts/Su-Chi quickly, then I'm going to lose no matter what I do (good synergy, bad synergy, or no synergy).  Miners are in there to make the second wave of creatures either happens a few turns later in the game or not at all.

[Azhrei]

I would have to say that Keeper's best sideboarding options against TnT are Ebony Charm and 1-2 Swords to Plowshares.

Dwarven Miner, I am thoroughly convinced, has little to no place in the sideboard of Keeper. It is a card that is only very good in the mirror match and takes slots that must be devoted to beating decks like Sligh, Suicide, and Stompy. Miner is next to worthless against a deck like TnT, which is perfectly capable of having some major threats on the table with Moxen and one land drop.

Overall, I think that the best way to design a Keeper sideboard is to have 4-5 spells to board in against blue based control (and Aura Fracture since monoblue is still played by some), 1-2 specifically anti-burn cards, 1-2 graveyard hate cards, 1-2 "tricks", and then the remaining slots really need to be devoted to diverse plans of attack versus fast aggro decks. I would say that 2 Keg and 1 Pyroclasm are almost mandated these days because of the speed of some aggro decks.

Landkill and mana denial is just not a wise strategy to rely on, as your best option is only going to work against Keeper. While it's nice to win the mirror in the top eight, those Miners are going to make you seem very silly if you get knocked out by a Stompy deck and then a Sligh deck because you had cards in your board that were focused on a matchup you don't really need to worry about. The Keeper mirror can be won through skill, but the Keeper v. aggro matchup needs to be won through minimizing luck and destroying aggro's speed advantage.

[CrazyCarl]

I cut Miners a while ago from my board, and even if they were still in my deck, I wouldn't side them in.  As it is, vs TnT I side in Moat, Phyrexian Furnace(Deals with not only Wonder and Squee, but Genesis which some versions run) and an Swords to Plowshares, taking out Misdirection, Sylvan Library, and Mind Twist(Though it should probably be Stroke i'm cutting, I haven't had any problems vs TnT).  As you may know, I run Cunning Wish which means I have Shattering Pulse, yet I don't board it in.  Most people side out the Wish for the pulse, but I like the versatility that the Wish provides(Plow, Edict even, also Mis-D can be useful at times).  If someone has a better plan vs the deck im definatly open to new opinons.

Oh, and nice to see you again Az ;P

Carl

[LoA]

Interesting points on the rise of aggro and how it should influence sideboarding, Az.  It's that very rise of aggro that got me thinking about Factories again.  I've cut one Miner for an additional Aura Fracture.  I'm wary about cutting both only because I suddenly have a lot of dead cards in the mirror match.  Factories (and irrationality) are keeping Sacred Ground in the SB for now, but if I ever got around to serious playtesting, I might cut the Factories for 1 Wasteland and 1 Underground Sea and replace the Sacred Ground with a 4th ReB or something equally generic or Ebony Charm.  Fear of total generic keeper.dec is another reason the Factories are still in there, to be honest.  The sideboard currently stands at:

3x ReB
1x Pyroclasm
1x Dwarven Miner
2x CoP: Red
1x StP
1x Moat
2x Powder Keg
1x Phyrexian Furnace
2x Aura Fracture
1x Sacred Ground


Depending on the metagame, I might switch one Aura for a Seal of Cleansing if I see a ton of TnT.

A quick note on Sacred Ground:  I know it looks janky, and it might very well be, but with so many decks looking to disrupt Keeper's manabase, I'm thinking this and the extra Aura Fracture/Seal of Cleansing are going to be fairly strong.  Kaplan Sligh loses a lot of tempo post sideboarding vs. Keeper and this one card makes 9 of their cards (4 from the SB) dead.  Likewise, Suicide and Void stall on Sinkholes and Wastelands if this is in play.