Dwarven Miner in Keeper

[Big Blue]

Half a year ago on BD I tried to start a discussion on Dwarven Miner in Keeper, but since BD was already in the state of dying I did not get the response that I got for my Undiscovered Paradise post the year before (now it seems, that UP is a standard choice for Keeper). So... Let me try to start the discussion again (and maybe 1 year from now Dwarven Miner will be a standard choice .

Just for your convenience, in case you do not remember:

Dwarven Miner; cc 1R; P:1 T:2; ability: 2R, tap: destroy target non-basic land

Why should you play Dwarven Miner in Keeper?


1. It fits the silver bullet theme

The story of Keeper is a story of silver bullets combined with Tutors and draw-cards to fetch them, counterspells to protect them and defensive spells to survive long enough to actually cast them. Usually people play The Abyss, a silver bullet against most creatures (especially nasty black ones), Gorilla Shaman, a silver bullet against cheap non-creature artifacts (most notably Moxen which of course is the reason for its nickname, Mox-Monkey), Mindtwist, a silver bullet against the opposing hand (i.e. against any deck that cannot counter but is still slow - e.g. Parfait or Sligh with 8 blasts). So in summary, you have silver bullets against the hand, against non-artifact targetable creatures and non-creature artifacts. That leaves you vulnerable to

enchantments
artifact-creatures
non-targetable creatures
sorceries/instants
lands

Hopefully, your defensive non-silver bullets take care of them (Counterspells, D-Blow, Edict, Strip/Waste). However, in case there were many enchantments around you would be afraid of, surely you would consider a silver-bullet, right? Similarly, in case there were many artifact or non-targetable creatures, again you would consider a silver-bullet. In fact, against certain types of sorceries/instants many Keeper player actually do have some silver bullets, at least in the SB (e.g. COP: Red or Compost).

However, few people seem to consider silver bullets against (non-basic) lands nowadays, which is even more surprising considering the fact that originally (some) Keeper-decks played Blood Moon. I can perfectly understand everybody who is reluctant to play Keeper with Blood Moon (ask Milton if you want to go THAT route). But against non-basic lands there is a perfect alternative available: Dwarven Miner.


2. An analysis of the various matchups

Keeper:
Against Keeper it is simply devastating. The worst case scenario (for you) is that it is a 1-for-1 trade. But at the moment it starts eating lands, it is already great. After a few turns all you have to do is wait patiently for his attempt to cast a Balance and counter it (if you are REALLY evil and you can afford it counter with a hard cast FoW just to show him his limited resources). Later you can just attack (you need not even bother with Morphling).

Combo:
Your main concern is, of course, to prevent the combo deck from going off. Dwarven miner does not help much here, but it helps more than e.g. Morphling does (or Tome, or Braingeysir, or Regrowth or Masticore or ... - DM is not really comparable to any of these cards, but since you will probably want to take out one of these for testing DM I decided to list them). Combined with Mox Monkey you can mana-screw him completely, provided you were able to survive the first 4 turns with counter-magic and/or luck.

other multi-coloured decks or most Workshop variants:
Clearly, DM is great against any of these decks.

Forbiddian:
If he is playing a Legendesque (i.e. only basic lands) variant DM does not help very much. But these decks are not a big thread anymore after the FoF-restriction (still very good, but not broken). Against ordinary Forbiddian decks DM can occasionally destroy a Factory, a LoA, sometimes even a Strip/Waste or a Thawing Glacier (or the evil DustBowl!). It can also block Ophidian repeatedly, which is just an added value. And if everything else fails he is a, um, 20-turn clock. Often you may want to side him out in these matches, but against my local Forbiddian-decks I usually leave him in the deck, since they play about 12 non-basic lands all of which are evil. So despite of the fact that DM might not be great in these matches it is still ok. Just beware of the random Control-Magic! (As if Forbiddian is ever going to side THAT card against Keeper...)

Sligh:
Again, in Legendesque variants DM is just a Bolt-absorber or it might even be a blocker (often it buys you 1 turn, which is ok). Versus Factory/Barbarian Ring variants occasionally you will be able to eat some land. Usually you will side it out, but it is ok since it is cheap enough to buy you an extra turn in the early game.

NetherVoid/Pox/Sui:
The blocking and attacking issue is of minor importance here (ok, sometimes you are desperate and you block a Negator and 1 turn later you draw the card which wins you the game, but most of the time Miner is not very good in terms of Power/Toughness). If the deck splashes e.g. White (as some Pox decks do) Miner is already ok/good. In variants with Factories and/or Ports it is also ok. But you definitely want to side it out in games 2/3 (after all, your plan A is to drop The Abyss ASAP and Miner and The Abyss do not mix well).

Stompy:
A dead card, in various senses. Still, it might buy you one turn. But side it out in game 2/3.


3. A summary of the above analysis
If the decks to beat are Keeper, Combo, multi-coloured decks, Forbiddian with Factories, two-coloured variants and Sligh, then DM is very good and should be played maindeck (you can still side it out in games 2/3 against Sligh and Forbiddian, if you wish). If, however, most of the dangerous decks you encounter are mono-black or Stompy, do not bother with Dwarven Miner.


4. The mana issue
You should consider DM seriously if and only if you play at least 3 Vulcanics+1 UP or, alternatively, 4 Vulcanics (I prefer 4 Vulcanics+1UP, but 3 is still ok) on top of the 4 COBs and the Ruby. After all, you are vulnerable to Wastelands and it is somewhat embarassing to cast a Miner and not be able to use it due to lack of R. Since most Keeper player have to beat other Control decks (and thus play a couple of REBs) they play 3-4 Vulcanics anyway, so this is not a big deal.


5. Tricks with DM
There are not many stack-tricks you can perform. Let me just point out that often it is advisable to wait and use DM EOT. Sometimes, you might even hold back the attack (despite the absence of non-basics) in order to be able to destroy an eventual land during your opponents turn (can be of importance in some games against control). When DM is happy, you should consider to start attacking. Note that often you can play him first turn (which is why he is so devastating against Keeper). Note also, that you can Tutor for him (not that you did not know, but since this card can win you the game I thought I should point this out). Er, yes. You can also block and attack, and should you block and DM is about to die it is always nice to eat a land as last supper. And (not that this was an important point, but still...) if your opponent uses an Edict, well, that is one Edict less against your Morphlings...


6. Synergies and lack of them
DM works very well with Mox Monkey and Timetwister in the same deck. In fact, Timetwister helps you a lot against mono-B, so even if some of the dangerous decks you encounter are mono-B do not be afraid of using DM if you also play Timetwister (as I would reccomend). It works especially well with enough red mana (see 4.). It does still work fine with Moat (for those rare decks which still play them MD - you just cannot attack anymore), although if your metagame is such that Moat is a good idea, DM most likely is not. It does not work fine with The Abyss. But usually this is not a big deal. And finally, sometimes you have to be careful if you plan to play Balance soon. Playing a DM thoughtlessly might cost you a game in such occasions (e.g. when you play a Miner, he has a flyer, keeps attacking and your only defense is Balance). Otherwise, there are no relevant non-trivial interaction with the rest of the deck (yes, you can YawgWill it, but I do not have to explain that to you, right?).


7. Counter strategies and how to prevent them
The worst card is Balance. Not only does it get rid of DM, it also restores land parity. Fortunately, casting a Balance (and being able to protect it with enough counterspells) is not an easy task without lands (or with only few of them). Still, beware of Black Lotus/Balance plays (i.e. keep your Counterspells, do not tap out during your mainphase etc. - the most dangerous thing is if you start to play "stylish" - keep calm, eat his lands and finally start to attack).

Edict or Fire&Ice also kill DM, but it is a 1-for-1 trade. StoP is also a 1-for-1 trade, but it is usually a dead card against you, so being StoPed is not a good trade for a DM - but there is nothing you can do about it (except countering of course). BEB is a rarely played card against Keeper, but it does its job. Be sure to laugh at him, when you play your YaygWill protected by a FoW and he shows you a BEB (the point I want to make is that BEB, while great against Miner, Mox Monkey and REBs is completely dead against the other 55 cards in your deck). The Abyss is bad luck. But you can stil use him once, if I understand the ruling correctly. Not great, but not bad either (much like a Wasteland). And NOBODY is going to keep The Abyss against Keeper, and if they do, well, good luck to them! Post SBing, the best cards he can have against DM in the mirror match are Edict, F&I and Balance, two of which are also good against Morphling and three of which are also good against Mox Monkey - so your other threads are more likely to survive. Other cards are minor issues - e.g. Powder Keg kills it, but it takes 2 turns and this way it doesn't kill your Moxen, your Mox Monkey or your Morphling. Anyway, in almost all cases we are talking about 1-for-1 trades, which are ok.

The main point about 1 DM (2 post SBing) is that either way they have a problem: if they do not play any defensive against it, they have to rely on counterspells. If they do play defensive cards, they might not even encounter your DM and run into a Mindtwist, a YawgWill etc. Even if you do play DM (as I would highly recommend), do not forget that you have still 59 other cards in the deck.


8. A sample decklist

Because I do not want to confuse the issue of this thread with several other Keeper threads, I do not present a SB, neither do I include Cunning Wishes, Impulses or Holistic Wisdom. This decklist is about 3 months old and I have used it in several T1 tourneys.

Keeper with Dwarven Miner (60 cards):

mana: (28)
4 COB
4 Underground
4 Vulcanic
2 Tundra --> it is ok for me, but you might want to play 3; take out 1 Waste or 1 Vulcanic instead
1 UP
4 Wasteland
1 Strip
1 LoA
7 SoLoMoxen

blue (20):
4 Mana Drain
4 FoW
1 Counterspell
1 Mis-D
2 Morphling
1 Ancestral
1 Walk
1 FoF
1 Stroke
1 Mystical
1 Merchant
1 Timetwister --> great synergy with Mox Monkey and Dwarven Miner!
1 F&I

black (6):
1 YawgWill
1 Mindtwist
1 Demonic
1 Vampiric
1 Diabolic Edict
1 The Abyss

red (2):
1 Mox Monkey
1 DWARVEN MINER

white (2):
1 Balance
1 D-Blow

green (1):
1 Sylvan Library

non-mana artifact (1):
1 ZOrb


9. I want to test Dwarven Miner, but what should I take out?

In no particular order (since I do not know your decklist): Regrowth, Braingeysir, Tome, Masticore, 2nd Mox Monkey, 2nd StoP, 2nd Edict, 2nd Merchant Scroll, Vindicate, 3rd Morphling, ...


10. Have fun and let me know how Dwarven Miner works for you!

[Freddie]

I exsist in a pretty aggro filled 1-2 color deck enviornemtn, and even I will MD the miner occasionally.

I do not MD him nearly as much as I'd like, since he is best suited against control, and I use that slot for a plow.

If you exsist in a primarily keeper enviorment, it is a far stretch for me to imagine why you would not MD at least 1 miner.

As Big Blue said, it is another silver bullet, and againt control, or Zoo it can make a bigg effect on the game.

Reservations:

Game 1, control will still have all their MD anti Creature kill in. As oppoesed to game 2-3 were they will usually depend more on counterspelling opposing threats.

Negative synergy with abyss. I bring SB miners against zoo variants, in an attempt to undermine their mana base as much as possible (since that is were I feel they are most vulnerable) and the MD abyss and miner have a negative synergy.

The Mox Monkey can atleast kill a lot of artifacts before it is sucked away into the abyss, but the miner will usually need a few turns to make a significant impact on the game.
-------

I discussed MD miner, on BD as well, but there was a flurry of "Miner was less then honerable", and "That's just MD hate" comments flying around, but I think that it is an excellent idea.

Any keeper player that has been on the recieving end of an early miner, that has gone unchecked a few turns, will attest to his effectivness.

-Freddie

[Big Blue]

In an aggro environment Dwarven Miner is ok, but not great (unless everybody plays Zoo...). But let me refine this: even if 50% were aggro decks and only 10% Keeper decks, it could still be more important to have great cards for the mirror which are still ok in aggro rather than playing great cards against aggro which are bad against Keeper - you have to attach a "weight" to each deck, according to how dangerous it is. I am not afraid of random aggro decks, even if I am a bit "defensiveless" with only 1 F&I and 1 Edict (and 1 Balance and 1 Abyss and 1 ZOrb and Tutors to fetch them and Morphlings to block and...) it seems more important to me to have the edge over the "good" decks. I want to win more games rather than winning games more. Against the good decks I have to face, DM is excellent or at least ok. Against the bad decks I do not care very much.

It is true that game 1 Keeper still has all the creature hate - but Edict and F&I are 1-for-1 trades, so that's not a big deal (and they need it for Mox Monkey and Morphling as well). StoP and Abyss are sometimes inconvenient (because without Miner they would be completely dead), but these are just two situational cards. Moreover, few Keeper players will play an Abyss proactively since it taps quite a bit of mana during their main phase. And if they wait for your Miner, well, at least you can use him once. Not great, I admit, but still a 1-for-1 trade (the land for the Miner; I am not talking about the otherwise dead Abyss).

Yes, on BD (may it rest in peace) there were some funny arguments concerning Dwarven Miner. Although, I think that people could have been convinced, given some amount of testing and time. I remember also some initial reservations towards Undiscovered Paradise, but after some months (and after 2-3 threads in which I tried to argue in favour of it) people convinced themselves that 1 UP is good. 1 Miner MD clearly is not "hate" but it fits the silver bullet issue. 4 Miners would be hate...

So in fact, I very much do hope that people DO have some reservations regarding DM - there is no point in believing me everything I have written without critical testing. But at least do it - test DM MD!

[Rakso]

Undiscovered Paradise is used because Matt sold Sylvan like igloos to an eskimo, and because it's built in Back to Basics insurance.

You had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Dwarven Miner is a creature that you use best after the opponent has sided out some creaturekill from the main deck. Read the Living Wish for Miner argument again.

The Living Wish discussion: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=3004

If Dwarven Miner is good, then it might imply that Living Wish is good as well.

Citing the entire metagame doesn't seem as useful as citing all the bad game 1 matchups.\n\n

[Big Blue]

Rakso: It is probably true that Matt's propaganda for Sylvan helped my propaganda for UP a lot. But if you look at the archives of good old BD you will see that the statement that I had nothing to do with the propagation of UP is not true. You will find posts of JP and Matt before and after they converted to UP. But admittedly it is a minor issue. I do not have strong feelings about copyright or so. It is just that UP in Keeper is kind of my signature card, which is why I respond to that statement.

Let us not entangle Living Wish with Dwarven Miner - they have nothing to do with each other. Living Wish is only good if you support enough Green, which is difficult but possible in Holistic based Keeper decks or Franchise variants (does it still exist, BTW?). But as you know very well you also have to support enough Red. I do not see how Dwarven Miner being good would imply that Living Wish is good. These are 2 different cards.

Dwarven Miner is an excellent MD choice in probably most metagames, that is the point I wanted to make. It is not a must, but a card that Keeper players with enough Vulcanics should consider seriously for the reasons I stated above.

Concerning your other points: Yes, Dwarven Miner runs into creature kill, but Keeper has very few creature kill cards that do NOT also kill Morphling - only Abyss and 0-2 StoPs. I have discussed both of them in my first post, so I don't know what else to say about this issue. If after game 1 he is intimidated enough to keep Abyss and StoPs - well, good luck to him! He is more likely to have wrong answers than me having wrong threads...

I do not understand your last statement. If it is of importance for the discussion or if you need some clarification please let me know what exactly you mean.

[Rakso]

No, I just mean that Miner is a dead slot against too many things except the mirror, and the mirror is hardly a disaster Game 1.

I hinted that if Miner game 1 is as strong as it might look, then we'd still be trying to find ways to fit Living Wish and the necessary colors, even for style purposes alone.

[spin13]

The assumed correlation between Dwarven Miner being good maindeck and Living Wish is very non-existant.  While Wish may simulate a maindeck Miner, it really has little to do with whether an actual Miner is worthwhile.

There is a difference between playing a single silver bullet maindeck and completely restructuring your deck.  Living Wish either A) changes the mana structure, sideboard, and/or maindeck creature assortment maindeck or B) is really stupid.  Playing the Miner main really changes little for mana, possibly even strengthens the sideboard (by giving you an extra slot), and only, for sure, changes the creature assortment maindeck (which is a very obvious and, in this case, worthless argument).

As for the actual issue at hand, its my feeling that its all just a metagame call.  Whether Shaman, double Shamans, Miners, Plows, Chainer's, Teferi's Response, etc are worth it is all a judgement call by each player.  Its a worthy enough theory that I don't really think there is much required debate as to whether its viable and/or wise, but rather whether or not its personally worthwhile.

 -Eric

[Big Blue]

Having cleared the Living Wish issue (thanks, spin13, for your concise statement) let me move onto the metagame issue. I concede that spin13 made very good points, but IMO Dwarven Miner is more than just a card of Response type or of StoP type: it is a Silver Bullet against any deck with duals. Let me follow this Silver Bullet theme for a while:

True, if you live in a monochromatic environment, DM is likely to be a "bad" idea.

Similarly, if you live in a combo&control only metagame, Abyss is most likely a "bad" idea.

Or if you live in an environment where no 0-1 cc artifacts are played, Gorilla Shaman is a "bad" idea.

The point I try to make is the following: Silver Bullets are only Silver Bullets against a certain type of decks (some of them are still ok against a variety of other decks like e.g. Shaman since at least it is a cheap blocker if nothing else) - you do not kill Werewolves with garlic. But these bullets cost you "only" one slot and for that "little" investment they kill you whole archetypes.

As I argued, even in some of the matches were DM does not shine brilliantly, it can often be ok (e.g. when facing Factories or playing against Sligh) - so, unlike The Abyss, which is really dead against most control and combo decks, DM need not be a complete waste of slot.

No Keeper player I know omits The Abyss (and quite rightfully). Most play 1 Shaman, even though their environments are not fully powered (and it is ok, because you can kill also Cursed Scrolls and Sol Ring - and should you encounter one of the few powered decks - well, you have better chances if you play Shaman and he does not). And yet, few Keeper players try Dwarven Miner maindeck, even though they are happy to include it in the SB - although it fits the Silver Bullet theme quite well and kills a variety of archetypes.

But one thing is true: you have to judge whether you fear more your monochromatic opponents or your two/multi-coloured ones. If Suicide, Stompy and Sligh are your worst nightmares then play StoP and hope for luck in the first game should you encounter a mirror match. If, however, you have a mixed metagame or even one inclined towards Keeper you should consider DM MD seriously.

[CrazyCarl]

The thing about using Dwarven Miner as a "silver bullet" is that it's a creature.  That's is weakness(and it is a large one).

There are just too many spells played nowadays that deal with creatures AND can do other stuff at the same time(Like Fire/Ice) which turns creature "silver bullets" into instead, a very good card that can dealt with much easier than say, a Choke or City of Solitude.

Carl

[Big Blue]

Very true. DM is a creature and as such very weak since it can be killed in many ways. However, if you print that statement on a coin and flip it, you will see that this can actually be an advantage:

Some people might be intimidated enough to keep, say, StoP(s) or The Abyss, which are dead cards against the rest of your deck. We are not talking about 4 DMs, just a single copy. So if this single copy induces my opponent to SB badly, well, that is more than I could hope for.

True, F&I just kills it - but it is a 1 for 1 trade and that is ok. Otherwise, he would just tap one City for an extra card with Ice, so it is not a big deal. The toughness 2 protects you from "kill your Mox Monkey AND your DM".

Moreover, if he just keeps, say, 1 random StoP, chances are high that he won't have it when I have my Miner or the other way round. And in the worst case scenario, it is a 1 for 1 trade.

If DM is killed by an edict you have a little bit less to fear for your Morphling (and it is again 1 for 1). Not great, but not bad either.

It is a bit like with The (original) Deck - if people sided out their StoPs, Serra Angel was unStoPable. OTOH, if they kept the StoPs, chances were high, that they ran into Disrupting Sceptre or Mindtwist (or its blue substitute) - StoPs did not stop a Keeper from gaining control.

Now, against Sligh decks I concede that DM is not so hot - but again, at worst it is a healing salve (kind of), in better cases it can block (or you can Mis-D onto a 2/1) and in the best case it takes out a couple of Factories/Barbarian Rings.

Other creature kill (Wrath of God, Pyroclasm, Earthquake etc.) is just too random to care about. Yes, without DM these cards would be dead, but chances are high that you win anyway against a deck playing these cards against you.

Note incidentally, that DM can safely block Ophidian (because it is a CREATURE with toughness 2), which (at least in my metagame) is a non-negligible advantage - but admittedly this is a metagame issue. Note also, that DM is a (rather slow, but in some weird games it is all that's left in the deck) victory condition, which is not very relevant, but still an added value (I have won at least 2 games during the last 6 months were both my Morphlings were removed - sure, Shaman also does the job, but still...).