Enchantress tweaks

[cooberp]

After focusing on Academy for a few months I have returned to my signature deck and found room for improvement.

I addressed the deck's main problems:

1. It gets mana screwed badly.
2. Its mana curve is too high.
3. It relies too heavily on card-disadvantage tutoring.

and consequent unsatisfactory success rates against Keeper (~40%) and 4-Price Sligh (also ~40%, perhaps even worse).

To address no. 1 and 2, I took the "metagame slot" of Choke or Circle of Protection: Red and replaced it with a main deck Carpet of Flowers.
Control always runs dead cards, but dead cards are not as bad in Enchantress as Keeper because they can cantrip--especially if they are cheap.  Carpet is a) a one casting cost enchantment and b) a tutorable way out of mana screw against control.  It's been quite strong in my testing so far, letting me throw twice as many threats at control as I used to (since they all cantrip, I don't blow my load and fizzle like Suicide), addressing all sorts of colored mana problems (including an 8th blue source for Ancestral), sometimes being cast against non-blue decks just to draw into land or threats.
To address c)--and this has been a very significant change--I cut Sterling Grove no. 4 for Sylvan no. 3.  This has made an absolutely tremendous difference.  I used to always have to waste a card tutoring for Sylvan--now that card I used to tutor for Sylvan IS a Sylvan.  The result is that the deck seems dramatically more explosive off the draw.  Every single hand I get strong pressure, usually both an Enchantress and a Sylvan within the first 2-3 turns.  While it was just a one-card change, it seems to have given the deck the critical mass of threats it needs to consistently burst out of the box. Sylvan is, of course, a digger in and of itself, so it replaces some of Grove's tutoring effect.  Multiple Sylvans aren't a problem as they each draw counters or cantrip.  And I haven't missed the last Grove at all against aggro--I've been able to find and draw what I need off the Sylvan without wasting a turn and a card setting up a tutor.  The Sligh matchup has fallen right back to where it should be, a split or slightly favorable vs. Kaplan and strongly favorable against less metagamed decks, just because I have been able to get down Enchantress/Worship turn 3-4 (scoop) instead of turn six (toast).  Game one against Sligh, you shouldn't even waste time trying to set up a draw engine--just pretend you're playing Trix or something, a two-card combo.  If you have a Demonic Tutor, get Enchantress, not Ancestral.
As for Keeper, I haven't done enough testing to see how much of a difference this makes, although it has obviously helped.  But it's been a strong improvement.  After I get back to NG I'll provide some results.

Enchantress, August 2002, CooberP

Mana (28)
4 City of Brass
4 Savannah
3 Bayou
2 Brushland
2 Scrubland
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Carpet of Flowers

Draw (9)
4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Sylvan Library
1 Pursuit of Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall

Recursion (5)
4 Replenish
1 Regrowth

Anti-Control (5)
3 Duress
1 Mind Twist
1 City of Solitude

Search (4)
3 Sterling Grove
1 Demonic Tutor

Removal (4)
1 Balance
1 The Abyss
1 Pariah
1 Seal of Cleansing

Staying Alive (3)
1 Moat
1 Worship
1 Overgrown Estate

Kill (2)
2 Sacred Mesa

Sideboard (15)
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Powder Keg
2 Femeref Enchantress
2 Choke
2 Circle of Protection: Red
1 City of Solitude
1 Aura Fracture
1 Compost
1 Circle of Protection: Black
1 Karmic Justice

[Freddie]

Due to my own ignorance of the decktype, I am curious as to why is there 4 Replinish in the Maindeck?

I understand 2, but 3-4 seems really steep to me, as it doesnot allow you to draw cards from the enchantress, and is 4 cc.

Is disenchant effects, or duress and Hymn so popular in your area that you always have a graveyard full of enchantments?

Along with the replinish, I see no way for you to discard cards, ie. attunment, or bazhar...

That cou;d be 2 more slots for you... just a question/ suggestion.

-Freddie

[cooberp]

I'll paraphrase the primer...
Imagine that Yawgmoth's Will read, You may play cards in your graveyard as if they were in your hand.  Cards played this way cannot be countered, can be played without paying their mana cost, and are not regarded as having targets.  
Add one to the mana cost, but put it in your primary color, and unrestrict it.
In a deck where over half the spells are enchantments, this is the power of Replenish.

Let's consider two scenarios.  The first is that your opponent has counters, discard, or disenchant effects, the second is that they don't.

In the first, they are likely to either counter enchantments that hurt them, will make you discard them, or will remove them.  These are usually one-for-one trades.  If they do this 4-5 times, they have traded 4 for 4 or 5 for 5.  If you resolve Replenish, you get your 4 or 5 back, meaning every card they used to stop your enchantments up to this point is wasted.  Against any deck with counters, Enchantress is a Replenish deck.  It throws out threat after threat after threat until it runs an opponent out of counters and then Replenishes, quickly overrunning them with a Serra's Sanctum-powered Sacred Mesa.

In the second, Replenishes are *still* never dead because of the high volume of enchantments the deck runs that sacrifice themselves to be used--including its spot removal for enchantments, artifacts, and creatures, its tutoring, and its draw.  4 Replenishes means the deck runs effectively 4 Pariahs and Seals of Cleansing to deal with opposing permanents, 12 Sterling Groves to find and re-find whatever silver bullet the deck needs, and most explosively, four Pursuits of Knowledge.  The broken Sylvan/PoK interaction reads "pay 0 life, draw seven cards), but when you run four Replenishes, it's more like pay 0 life, draw 28 cards, as you get to bring the PoK back and back and back again.  Even if your opponent does nothing to stop you, the ability to Replenish back sacrificed enchantments produces overwhelming card advantage.  It's just never ever dead--it's the only reason the deck holds its own in T1.

Does that clarify things?

[Rakso]

Coob, I still maintain that you lost the streamlining of the deck the moment you went off into three colors.

Other than that (for now)... might even Matt not blink at the third Sylvan?

[cooberp]

??
You think it was better as just G/W?
Without Duress, it was lucky to take 30% against Keeper.  Abeyance just isn't the same because it doesn't give you information and doesn't actually get rid of the counterspell.
Adding black didn't give up anything against aggro either--it added the Abyss and DT.  The only thing it did was open the deck up to nonbasic hate, a tradeoff I am happy to make.  If you have the time, play Keeper a bunch of games against Enchantress with and without black and see the difference.
Matt fully supported the addition of black.  I don't know what he thinks about Sylvan no. 3, but I know that I absolutely love it and it seems to be making a huge difference--the difference between Groving for Sylvan and drawing it.

[vinceherman]

Is Ancestral Recall ever dead?  I would worry about having U available with the limited U mana base.  Does it justify itself through PoK?

[cooberp]

I have never used Ancestral/Pursuit in my life.  Ancestral is good because it draws three cards for one mana.  It's been in the deck for months and I have never had it sit in my hand for more than two turns without being able to cast it, and I can usually cast it right away.  Moreover, it's never been Misdirected.  It ran fine off 7 sources and I just added an eighth.  But don't get tempted to add Time Walk, it doesn't do jack for this deck.

[Freddie]

cooberp: good point about repenish and the comparison to Yawgwill... good point indeed!

Sorry for the stupid question.

But that was all it was, a question.

Good luck buddy.

-Freddie

[DAT]

Do you think that the three color version is superior to the two color against aggro?  I really feel like the deck loses something against black without land tax and sligh seems really hard prior to board.  I am very hesitant to even try the 3 color because of price and you open yourself up much more to wastlands.

[cooberp]

The three-color version has Abyss, which generally helps against creature decks.
Of course, it's worse against Suicide without Tax, but you still almost split game one and win after sideboarding.  Sligh isn't that bad game one either if you view yourself as an Enchantress-Worship combo deck--you have 4-5 turns to get down the lock or you lose.
The cost is, of course, being susceptible to nonbasic hate.  But I would rather have the best matchups possible against the field by playing the best cards for the deck than limit it just to dodge a few hosers/haters.  Plus Karmic Justice comes in from the SB and should be maindecked in a land d heavy environment.

[cooberp]

I'm astonished at the number of people who have asked me if it wasn't better as G/W with Land Tax.

It wasn't.  It was worse.  Much worse.  It did slightly better against Sligh, a good deal better against Sui, and MUCH worse against control--like, it barely won half as many games.  And last time I checked, T1 was a control-dominated format.

There's no reason to play old school G/W Enchantress.  If you want the immunity to nonbasic hate, just play mono white Parfait.  If you want a versatile and explosive control deck, suck it up and play three colors.

[TracerBullet]

Look, up in the sky, it's a bird, it's a plane, no, wait, there's not even a morphling in this deck...


What we have here is a Keeper deck without Counters...a deck that's vulnerable to just about any kind of hate out there, isn't as resiliant, and isn't as fast.  What you do have is a disruptable draw system, as piss as fuck poor mana base, and a slower than molasses in january kill method.

The problem with W/G Enchantress against Keeper ISN'T not having enough disruption, as you tried to solve by adding black.  It's by not being able to counter Keeper's card advantage threats, and having your own card advantage rely upon such unstable methods.  An Enchantress is very easy for a Keeper deck with both Balance and Edict (maybe even Keg) to kill, and having only 4 in the deck makes some of your other cards much less dangerous.

Black's primary source of power was the ability to tutor, and perhaps that's where Enchantress is lacking.  Personally, I've tried Eladamri's Call in the deck and found it to be simply amazing.  The ability to solidify my draw method helped tremendously against Keeper, as an unkilled Enchantress is your best method to victory.  True, it's no Demonic Tutor, but still, it provides help without completely fucking yourself in the ass with a horrible mana base.

Another route to card advantage is by using the difficult to disrupt methods, i.e. Sylvan by itself or +Abundance/PoK.  Tax/Rack can be a real bitch for the Keeper player, as no matter what you say, Keeper doesn't like to run on 2 lands.

The other method is trying not to out draw keeper, but to just completely overwhelm the keeper player with threats that they just ABSOLUTELY have to deal with, such as Sacred Mesa or various hosers (Choke, City, and Story Circle all come to mind) and then recurse these with Replenish.

Hell, even on the disruption end, Chant and Abeyance can take care of that fine enough, just decide what you're going to do with it.  In reality, there's just no need to go into another color (and bad mana base) JUST to improve the Keeper matchup.

[cooberp]

WhoooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaK.  That's pretty harsh.  Allow me.

Quote What we have here is a Keeper deck without Counters

Not exactly--I mean, Keeper is base blue and this has one blue card.  What you have is a deck that follows the generally accepted principles of a good control deck--draw power, tutoring, recursion--in a different set of colors.

Quote a deck that's vulnerable to just about any kind of hate out there

Yeah, it's fucktarded.

Quote isn't as resiliant

Not sure what this means, but Enchantress can certainly come from behind.

Quote and isn't as fast

. Probably true.  It's quicker out of the box, but it doesn't have the Mana Drain effect, which is a big boost for Keeper.

Quote What you do have is a disruptable draw system

Anything's disruptable, but Enchantress draws a ton of cards.

Quote  as piss as fuck poor mana base

Well, not really.  The mana base is fine, there are like 16 sources of white and green and 10 of black.  The problem is that you get hit really hard with nonbasic hate.

Quote and a slower than molasses in january kill method.

Actually, it usually kills in two turns because you've Replenished and have a 10-point Serra's Sanctum.

Quote It's by not being able to counter Keeper's card advantage threats, and having your own card advantage rely upon such unstable methods.

Enchantress draws more cards than Keeper.  Sorry, but it does.  Keeper has Ancestral, Fof, Geyser, Stroke, and Sylvan.  Enchantress has 4 Enchantresses, 3 Sylvans and a Pursuit, and Ancestral.  Now, Enchantress needs to run more draw cards than Keeper does because Keeper has 8-9 cards to counter Enchantress' drawers, while Enchantress only has 3 Duress and a Mind Twist.  But the Enchantress draw engine is consistent, explosive, and not at all unstable.

Quote An Enchantress is very easy for a Keeper deck with both Balance and Edict (maybe even Keg) to kill, and having only 4 in the deck makes some of your other cards much less dangerous.

Balance and Edict are two cards out of 60!  That's not a lot the last time I checked.  And Enchantress has four Enchantresses, a Regrowth, and a Demonic, which is plenty.  Enchantresses usually get countered, but once they're on the board they are not at all easy to remove, especially if you don't overextend.

Quote Black's primary source of power was the ability to tutor, and perhaps that's where Enchantress is lacking.

Um...Doesn't it have 4 or 5 tutors?

Quote Personally, I've tried Eladamri's Call in the deck and found it to be simply amazing.  The ability to solidify my draw method helped tremendously against Keeper, as an unkilled Enchantress is your best method to victory.  True, it's no Demonic Tutor, but still, it provides help without completely fucking yourself in the ass with a horrible mana base.

Four Enchantresses plus Regrowth and DT are plenty.  You don't want to over-dilute the deck with tutoring.

Quote Another route to card advantage is by using the difficult to disrupt methods, i.e. Sylvan by itself or +Abundance/PoK.  Tax/Rack can be a real bitch for the Keeper player, as no matter what you say, Keeper doesn't like to run on 2 lands.

Well, I do run three Sylvans and a Pursuit.  They're half of the deck's draw power.  Tax/Rack is glacially slow, can't be searched for, and is way too easy to play around.  Sylvan often digs up Pursuit all by itself.

Quote The other method is trying not to out draw keeper, but to just completely overwhelm the keeper player with threats that they just ABSOLUTELY have to deal with, such as Sacred Mesa or various hosers (Choke, City, and Story Circle all come to mind) and then recurse these with Replenish.

Well, actually, that *is* the game plan against Keeper.  It's just that in order to overwhelm them you need to draw a ton of cards to resolve the Replenish by burning all their counters.  City and Circle are not friends, BTW.

Quote Hell, even on the disruption end, Chant and Abeyance can take care of that fine enough, just decide what you're going to do with it.  In reality, there's just no need to go into another color (and bad mana base) JUST to improve the Keeper matchup.

No, they don't, because they don't actually burn the counterspell AND give you information about the opponent's hand so that next turn you can drop your bomb.  Black doesn't just improve the Keeper matchup; it improves every matchup at a slight cost to Sligh and a decent cost to Suicide, which is still not a bad matchup.

[Magimaster]

CooberP : What's your take on using Seedtimes in the sideboard?

I picked up one the other day and started questioning its uses in T1. Obviously, it's use is limited in a deck like Stompy, but in a green deck which can support the cost easily (like Enchantress) do you think it's viable?

[PsychoCid]

The difference of a single City of Brass between 3 and 4 isn't that bad.  Being that the deck is not so fast, you want that mox in there anyway.  Since it's not like you are cutting basics, the drawbacks aren't bad enough to warrant not playing the magnificence that is Ancestral Recall.

I haven't tested the deck so recently, but I'd say 2 Replenish is too few, and 4 only *might* be too many.  I'd go either 3 or 4 depending on metagame, etc.

Dueling Grounds?  You're going to bump out like one, maybe two creatures.  Might as well be spot removal, eh.  Or wait for one more mana and just use an Abyss/Moat. =P

Sol Ring is in the deck because it can use that mana, obviously.  Yes, Vineyard always seems to have advantages, but it's never as much as you'd think.  If you needed MORE Sol Rings, THEN you talk about Vineyard, but Ring is > Vineyard, anyway.

I'm sure Coob knows that his deck can support double white.  The difference is usually the speed.  It's not that Aura has a casting cost of 1WW, it's that it has a converted casting cost of 3, which is more than 2.  This particular switch has much to do with preference and metagame.  It can go either way, but there's no clear cut "You should only run this one, not that one" line about it.

Carpet of Flowers gives you UP to the number, not just all or nothing.  It also doesn't give the opponent mana.

Yes, FoF is a good card, has a more powerful effect than Ancestral (digs deeper, etc.), can't be Misdirected, and has some synergy with Replenish.  But even through all this, I'm sorry, it's just not an Ancestral.  The simpleness of U, draw three is not matched by a 4cc mimic.

You can replenish a Pariah onto an enchantress, but you can't play it on it, since it is an untargetable creature.  Generally, though, you play it on an opponents creature (or replenish it onto).  This gets particularly painful for them when it happens to be a Negator or, to a lesser extent, a Jackal Pup.  etc.

Overall, I agree with the theory that coob's deck just wishes it was Keeper.  It may not try to match everything exactly, but all it does is go by the same control concepts using suboptimal methods, methinks.  Still, coob and his testing has provent that for this particular deck, his build and its choices are more optimal than those alternatives that people have suggested on this thread.

[Max, the Mana Drainer]

Very solid.

I like the addiction of black. I play Forbidian and I think Duress is the card I hate most. (not counting the blue hate)

Duress helps a lot against control: it just shows their hand and takes away a counter. This is absolutely necessary if you have to play something important.

I think 4 Replenishes are mandatory. It's a must counter for any control deck but hey, counters are (unfortunatelly) only 14-15. (damn!)  


Max, the Mana Drainer

[walking dude]

"Also, I'm not terribly sure why Sol Ring is in the deck.  I have tried with success using Eladamri's Vineyard.  Granted, they get mana, and they get to use it first, but without a cursed scroll, or fireblast, more often than not Sligh will burn for it.  Just a thought."


There are very very few decks that cant find a way to kill you if you give them 2 mana. Vinyard means black can drop a turn one negator without ritual. It means turboland can cast the horn of greed for one mana and go combo nuts soooo much faster. It means keeper can get a faster morphling and just race. It means that kid with the awful type 2 deck can now drop a turn 2 blastoderm and no longer have a bad deck. Sligh has the least to do with it, but it still ahs the colorless bit of incinerate and pop. Making those cards a 1/2 turn faster is all they need since turbo worship really isn’t much faster than sligh burnout.

As a basic deck principal, it is bad to give your opponent resources. You use mana and so do they. This means that if they are playing better cards then you, you have now given them the mana to cast them. If they are playing worse cards then you, you just helped make up for that by giving them card advantage (vineyard helps both of you but costs you a card). The only time its ok to give your opponent resources is if they are not going to get the chance to use them. Example: back in the day pros bloom used prosperity, but it was ok because the opponent was killed shortly after prosperity was cast.

[cooberp]

Magimaster--The effect isn't that valuable in this deck, and it's not an enchantment.  There's enough counter hate in here.

Cid--4 Replenishes is absolutely mandatory.  This is a Replenish deck.  They are never dead because of all the sacrificial enchantments.  If your opponent has no counters or disenchants or discard they're still 3-4 for 1.
As for wanting to be Keeper, yes and no.  In the sense that it both Keeper and Enchantress aim to be versatile, flexible, explosive, and controlling, with tons of card drawing and silver bullet answers, then certainly.  But that's just saying it's good--a lot of decks aim for those concepts, they're called good deckbuilding.  It is not as good as Keeper, obviously, because it doesn't have a Mana Drain effect for acceleration and autoloses to combo decks.  But it does beat mono blue, even with four FoF's, which was the original reason I designed it.

Walking Dude--or when Academy Meditates.

[PsychoCid]

Don't direct that Replenish comment at me I'm the one who said you need 3/4 (quite obviously 4, now).  I was saying that bcs some random was talking about running 2 only.  Derf.

As for the wanting to be Keeper thing, it's all about blue.  My point is that the deck tries so darn hard to do what blue can do without using it (with the exception of Ancestral).  I used to say it wanted to by PsychOath so badly.  This is true, but I've began saying Keeper, being that PsychOath is more than obsolete (and was to begin with). PsychOath had more similarities, though, because it revolved more around enchantments.

At any rate, the deck is what it is.  Without converting to a different-based control deck, that's not going to change.  I'm not seeing any upgrades to make for it at the moment, though.

PS-Who loses to Sligh for a big prize. Etc. \n\n

[Razor]

Guys, lighten up on the anti-Cooberp/Enchantress attitude!

I've read several of you accusing Cooberp of building a "Keeper-wannabee" deck.  What the hell!  His deck is not even close to Keeper!  No Morphies, no permission, different drawers, fewer restricted cards, only three out of the five colours, etc.

If you can't say anything positive or constructive, then put a sock in it.

Cooberp, what are your thoughts on:
Venduran Enchantress+Auratog+Rancor+Flickering Ward = fat threat.  Dilutes your deck too much?
Saproling Burst = (if unblocked) 22 damage, recursable
Abundance+Sylvan Library = drawing extraordinaire, recursable
Duress #4 = sooner is better
Trade Routes = more drawing, anti-Land Destruction, too, recursable

[BigChuck]

Coob,
    Eric and I were doing some testing, and I found that the deck was getting mana screwed a LOT. Sometimes it was color, but other times, I just wasn't drawing enough land. As it is, we took out a Sapphire, and a bayou, and added two plains. Granted, it doesn't add mana to the deck, but I found that it was pretty helpful getting the right colors. I think we played maybe seven games before changing it, and I went 0-7 before the change, and 2-3 after. I'm not sure what I would change, but am curious if you are getting the same problems I am.
     Also, I was wondering how you did against Void. This deck just could not beat it out of all 7 games that we lplayed. I beat forbiddian 2 times out of 5, which also isn't very good..How have you fared against these decks?

[cooberp]

Razor--I appreciate your sentiment, and I do often feel that people don't give the deck a fair shake.  But when they say it wants to be Keeper, what they mean is that it is a long-game control deck that aims to flexible, versatile, and explosive (I think).  That just means good.
Beatdown/combo Enchantress just sucks.  Trust me.  And it obviously has no place in a control deck that wants its whole deck on the board and then kills as an afterthought.  Mesa is the ideal victory condition for the deck.
Saproling Burst: Same.
Sylvan/Abundance: Sylvan/Pursuit is better.  It draws you seven cards the next turn, doesn't give your opponent information about your hand, and Replenishes to be used again and again and again.  No need for a second Sylvan combo card--if they counter Pursuit, just bring it back.
Duress #4: Only in mono black or Necro Trix.  Deck's mana can't really support it, it's not an enchantment, it's dead against aggro.
Trade Routes: It's no Ancestral Recall, and 7 or 8 sources is too tight to run it.  Plus, I don't even think it's that good without Land Tax.

Chuck--I used to have lots of mana problems with it too--not because I didn't have enough land or the right color land, but because I could die to a double Wasteland draw.  The deck runs 27 damn mana sources.  I've taken some time to optimize the mana base and the one I have found now somehow seems a lot more resistant to screw.  But maybe I was just unlucky before and have been lucky now.  For any multicolor control deck, mana can be a problem, but I've been having a lot less trouble with it lately than I used to.  The deck's mana curve is a bit too high and it would benefit from more cheaper enchantments, but Wizards needs to print the right ones!
Void is about 50/50.  Forbiddian you should take 70% before boarding, even better afterwards unless they board Hibernates, in which case you need to answer with boarded Thran Lenses.  If you're losing to Forbiddian you don't know how to play the deck.  You're online now, put together a mono U and I'll show you how to school it.

[spin13]

One thing Chuck did fail to mention was that it was U/r Ophidian, very similar in build to the one in thread a few lines below this one.  This means no maindeck B2B and only 2 Kegs, but it also means sideboard Blood Moons (which, as we all know is far worse than B2B should it resolve before an Aura Fracture).  Though we played unsided games all night, I would say I schooled him all night long.  One game I lost was 1) based on poor luck on my part (an accepted part of the game, of course) and 2) a horrible play mistake on my part.  I had 2 active Ophidians, drew 6 land in 2 turns, got Citied, and then when I finally drew into my Cunning Wish went for a Stroke (looking for a Morphling) without looking at my board (and realizing there was a Capsize there) with enough mana to cast it and have 3 counter backup when the City came back.  The other game I lost I concede to mana screw (who Ancestrals and still only sees 1 land for 5 turns?)  

While it doesn't really matter what exactly happened with my deck, I do have to say Chuck didn't fare well.  Sure, my proficiency with Forbiddian is greater than his with Enchantress and he did lose to a few notable mistakes, he also lost a number of games simply because.  Even having played Enchantress, I can't really say what it was besides mana problems, but it wasn't exactly the most enjoyable experience ever for the deck.

As for Nether Void, the matchup is far from 50/50 presided.  I know the Suicide matchup might be, but Void just has so much more than Suicide for matchups like this.  One, Pariah is no longer God removal.  Two, Moat shuts down much fewer cards.  Three, The Abyss is also not an auto-win.  Four, Worship is not an unkillable lock.  Five, the already high curve dies to a Void.  Spending early game resources getting a Seal into play does not help your cause versus Hymns and Sinks, resulting in later Moat/Abyss/Worships being weak.  Spending resources getting one of the above into play does not help your cause versus Void itself.  Luckily, Nether Void is rarer than Suicide, and the matchup post sideboard most likely improves Enchantress' chances (its easier for 'Chantress to tutor for Compost than it is for Void to get Dystopia, not put black cards into the grave, and hit all the green/white permenants 'shielding' Compost).  However, as I said earlier, game one kicks Enchantress in the ass.  Just something to be aware of.

 -Eric

[BigChuck]

Quote Forbiddian you should take 70% before boarding, even better afterwards unless they board Hibernates, in which case you need to answer with boarded Thran Lenses.  If you're losing to Forbiddian you don't know how to play the deck.  You're online now, put together a mono U and I'll show you how to school it.

Well, after playing 25 games of UrPhid against Enchantress, this is definitely not the case. I was playing Phid, Coob was playing Enchantress, and I ended up going 17-8. That translates to about 70% in FAVOR of UrPhid. We did play all of these games unsided, but unless theres something
spectacular that enchantress bring in after board, I just don't see it being not in favor of Phid.

Quote As for Nether Void, the matchup is far from 50/50 presided.  I know the Suicide matchup might be, but Void just has so much more than Suicide for matchups like this.  One, Pariah is no longer God removal.  Two, Moat shuts down much fewer cards.  Three, The Abyss is also not an auto-win.  Four, Worship is not an unkillable lock.  Five, the already high curve dies to a Void.  Spending early game resources getting a Seal into play does not help your cause versus Hymns and Sinks, resulting in later Moat/Abyss/Worships being weak.  Spending resources getting one of the above into play does not help your cause versus Void itself.  Luckily, Nether Void is rarer than Suicide, and the matchup post sideboard most likely improves Enchantress' chances (its easier for 'Chantress to tutor for Compost than it is for Void to get Dystopia, not put black cards into the grave, and hit all the green/white permenants 'shielding' Compost).  However, as I said earlier, game one kicks Enchantress in the ass.  Just something to be aware of.

While the matchup is definitely in favor of void, you were getting some ridiculous hands. Going 0-7 is no excuse, but you had multiple wastlelands a bunch of times, and the game you drew four sinkholes in the first 5 turns was just a little ridiculous. Had my proficiency with the deck been better, I may have been able to win a game or two at most, but it's a terrible matchup none the less.

[cooberp]

In my testing with Void it really has been around 50/50.  Then again, I've always taken 65-70% from any mono-U variant before last night when I played Chuck a bunch of games.  While it was really late and a few of those wins were due to me just being a horrific player and/or not paying attention, 14 or 15 of those 17 wins were really legit.  I need to figure out why.  The short answer is that with Phids on the board (against whom Pariah is useless) he could keep up with my drawing.  Active Ophidians really do beat Enchantress, MUCH more than EOTFOFYL's do.  Usually, I've been able to keep the Phid player back on their heels so much they haven't been able to drop and ride Phids cause they hold back to counter and then get overwhelmed.  But Chuck played much more aggressively--letting me resolve early Sylvans and/or Enchantresses and focusing on getting a Phid or three into play, and pulling ahead when I didn't draw enchantments.  Of course, the best strategy against Enchantress is always to throw stuff at it and make it react.  Without Phids, however, his deck is balls.  I think Enchantress really needs to focus on getting City of Solitude (which is an autowin) or Moat into play, THEN draw its way to overwhelm the counterwall.  It's tricky.
I'm not convinced that Enchantress wouldn't take 3 out of 5 against UrPhid after I figure out what to do.  But Chuck and I played enough games that either the deck or my approach is wrong.  I'll keep you all posted.
As for Void, could someone with a good Void deck play me a bunch of games unsideboarded?  I haven't played the match in awhile.

[ZoneSeek]

Yay, my first post ^_^

I thought of a somewhat techy idea against TnT / Stacker and Dragon (again, who plays Dragon?) - Ground Seal. Not only does it cantrip, but it makes Welders and Genesis useless, as well as animation spells. The only cost to Enchantress is it's Regrowth, which should be sided out for the Ground Seal. Although Welders and Genesis aren't -too- great of threats against Enchantress, as they are secondary, late game cards, where Enchantress will be setting up the Worship lock or producing Pegasi in the late game. I suppose it's not worth it, but any comments?

Another idea I had was Necra Sanctuary, but I don't know how effective it would be, considering it is slow, reliant on other permanents, and generally fragile. Also, when I first threw the deck together and didn't get a decklist from the net (thanks CooberP ) I used Multani's Presence as a tutorable "Enchantress" versus any deck with counters.

Any comments?

[BigChuck]

Ground seal may not be a bad idea, depending on that metagame. It would certainly help against those matchups. And, by the way, a lot of people are starting to play dragon.
Necra sanctuary is just unnecessary, as mesa wins just fine. It's been tested, and the general consensus has been that its overkill. Mesa kills the opponent just as fast, and doubles as being good blockers.

[Captain Cannibus]

I have just a couple questions about cooberp's enchantress build.   I am in the process of building a g/w/b version myself and would like to know if the following thoughts are viable options, or if there's a reason that they aren't being played.  

1) Why is fastbond missing.  This seems like a card that should be maindecked.  It provides much needed speed and helps soften the blow from land destruction.  In the late game it cantrips easily.

2) I assume city of solitude took over for ivory mask.  How does it play in this deck? (ie. it's easier to cast, but is the drawback a big issue?)

3) I was thinking about including a Genesis.  His casting cost makes him easy to play(although expensive), but his primary duty would be to recurse enchantresses as needed, not sit on the table.
 
4) I'm also toying with the idea of running 2 sacred mesa's.  Since it's your kill card, it seems like it might be a good idea to have more than 1 around... or is this redundant?  My concern is having the mesa get removed from the game.  (tormod's crypt or things like that)

Thanks in advance.

[spin13]

Fastbond is missing because this is a control deck, not a combo deck.  While there are a few ways to draw mass amounts of cards in a single turn (mostly PoK), you're usually better off with non card disadvantegous acceleration like Moxen.  Besides, its just another dead card if its not in your opening hand.  Cantrip or no, I'd rather have something useful that cantrips than not.

City of Solitude is just huge against mono-U.  By itself it essentially wins games, as they have either a lone Capsize (or no Capsize) to deal with it game one, and some 'ultra-teched out' sideboards might not even be able to deal with it, depending on what the mono-U player expects.  Ivory Mask, on the other hand, is too slow versus Suicide, and isn't as multipurposed as Worship against Sligh (or many other decks).

While CoS is a great card at times, the drawback can be fatal.  I have lost games because of CoS, and won against Enchantress with CoS out while playing permission.  The major drawback is learning how the deck acts not only in getting the CoS into play, but when it is in play.  There is also the skill of making sure it doesn't hit play when you don't want it to.  Once you learn how the deck must be played with CoS out, you cut the number of losses because of it to a minimum, but they still do happen.  Most importantly, play CoS carefully, and don't assume it is either a crutch or an auto-win against anything (even Mono-U).  That said, its definatly worth it as a one of.

As for Genesis, I dont' think its necessary.  One, any tutor that finds Genesis should find another Enchantress, and you should only have one of them.  Two, beyond 4 Enchantresses and a Regrowth, if they have killed or countered them all, you've got other huge engines (ie, Replenish or Sylvan/PoK) that should be getting through.  Very few decks have enough ways to completely neuter all your card advantage, and focusing on just using Enchantresses and not all your options is not always the right play.  Heck, if you Edict one Enchantress and counter 3 more, and I still can't resolve a Replenish or something game-breaking, then I deserve to lose.  Oh, and three, you have no innate way of getting it to the grave, making it a something you first must hard cast.  Game one, where it would be most surprising will find it most likely Plowed by a deck like Keeper where its most effective.  As for Mono-U, Enchantresses are just counter bait anyway, and they have 4 kegs anyway.

As for Mesa, last time I checked, there were 2 Mesas in the deck.  I'd be very surprised if Coob or anybody took one out.  Playing two Mesas follows all the same rules as playing two Morphs.  Sure, you have Replenish and no in-deck ways of removing them from the game (ie, Force of Will), but considering Mesa can't protect itself (relying only on Sterling Groves), not playing two would be silly.  Besides, back to back Mesa (assuming the first does not resolve) is a huge threat against many decks.

 -Eric

[Captain Cannibus]

Thanks for clearing up some of those points for me Eric.  

In my current enchantress build, I have basically substituted a yawgmoth's will for the regrowth.  I made this change because there never seems to be much in my graveyard that needs a one time regrowing, but the yawgwill let's me roll out a lot of cards that replenish can't recycle.
It also often pays for itself if I can replay a lotus or a mox, not to mention replaying a strip mine or my library.

This all sounds fine and good, but I noticed that a lot of decks don't run it and was curious why such a broken card doesn't get much play in this variant.