Timmy Eat World (Worldgorger Dragon)

[SiCK_Boy]

Timmy Eat World - An inside look at the process of deck evolution

Timmy Eat World is the nickname I use for the Worlgorger Dragon deck. I've played this deck since I saw the combo explained in Randy Buehler's column on MagicTheGathering.com.

Iteration 1 - A cool combo

My first though about this combo is that it wins fast. Still today, that's the main reason I stick to the deck. And when I say fast, I mean FAST. 1st and 2nd turn victories are easily achieved. 3rd and 4th turn victory are almost automatic when goldfishing. So, after seeing how the combo worked, I started working on a decklist. I looked for the basic elements (Dark Ritual, Entomb, Animate Dead + Dance of the Dead, Worldgorger Dragon), restricted stuff (Mox Emerald, Mox Jet, Mox Pearl, Mox Ruby, Mox Sapphire, Black Lotus, Demonic Tutor, Ancestral Recall, Time Walk), and searching for instant speed kill cards. The 3 I chose were Searing Touch, Ghitu Fire and Stroke of Genius. After that, I rounded out the deck with more search cards and some kind of disruptive/defensive support, adding Impulse and Force of Will. I also realised Whispers of the Muse would be good. Finaly, I picked up the lands (Badlands, Volcanic Island, Underground Sea, Undiscovered Paradise), and a small sideboard (Interdict, Red Elemental Blast, Perish, that kind of stuff). So, all in all, I went with what popped up in my head, and built a very sub-optimal decklist.

I started testing it, drawing hands and goldfishing, looking at the possibilities. These first sessions confirmed the absolute speed of the deck. I mean, most of the time, I'd get a winning (or at least drawing) hand in 2 or 3 turns. And I realized that Force of Will wasn't that good. I had gone with this card because I'm a blue mage at heart, and I always though it was the best way to protect a combo, but the problem here was that I never had the blue cards to pitch. Most of the time, the only blue card would be my game winning Whispers of the Muse, so it wasn't very synergic. I decided to cut the Force and Impulse, keeping only Whispers of the Muse and restricted cards in blue.

But now I needed a new search engine. And I found it in Tainted Pact. That card is now essential to my version of the deck, and I'm still wondering why I haven't seen more people suggesting this card in their decklists. It costs only 2, gives you more uses for your Dark Ritual (a first turn Dark Ritual-Tainted Pact for Entomb-Entomb is not rare), and allows you to generally get what you want, or a tutor. The main problem with Tainted Pact is that if you turn up a Worldgorger Dragon, you must almost always take it so as not to risk getting both and losing the game (considering I run only 2 Worldgorger Dragon in the deck). Also, I put in more black tutor (Vampiric Tutor and Demonic Consultation, who is a debatable choice, but is generally good once the Worldgorger Dragon is in the graveyard), and I added Necropotence. I put Duress in the sideboard, thus leaving me with no disrupting cards in the deck. And finally, I added many 1 of lands (like Rainbow Vale, Thran Quary, Gemstone Mine and others) in order to help with the Tainted Pacts.

This version did just about as good as the first draft in term of speed. In fact, I think that whatever support cards you change, the core speed of the combo just never change. And I didn't really see the loss of a main deck response as much of a problem (this is something you can often see happening when the testing player is only drawing hands and not really playing the deck).

I took this version to a small tourney (about 12 people) where I was the only player with power cards. A few had 1 or 2 blue cards, but nobody else had a Mox or the Black Lotus. This tourney was 1 week before Judgment became legal in sanctioned play, and the format was to play 2 games against everyone (1st game without sideboard), and then a single elimination portion where it was real match (best 2 out of 3). This allowed me to play lots of games and get a better feel for the deck. The field was mostly aggro, with very few optimal builds (even considering the lack of power cards), and very few very good players. I probably was 1 of the 2 or 3 best players there, even without my power cards. And nobody knew the deck. A few had heard about it, but that's all. I swept through the field, winning the tourney easily (well, the final was a well fought match, but most of the swiss portion was a real joke). And I learned the most important lesson about this deck: it lose to just about any instant speed creature removal! I hadn't figured that out before building the deck! That's why I didn't though it was a big deal to have Duress only in the sideboard. In fact, the first time someone played Diabolic Edict in response to the Worldgorger Dragon come into play ability, he hadn't figured out how much I was screwed. I just read the cards, resolved it, and realised I hadn't any permanents left (I'm a level 2 judge, so it wasn't a problem figuring out what was happening, but I guess regular players would probably have put back their permanents into play). After that play, the news that my deck was easy to screw spread around, and I had to react fast. The best way I figured to go around possible creature destruction was to wait untill I could play 2 Animate Dead in the same turn (keeping my land of the turn in hand in case the first animation missed), and I managed to win the final this way.

So, when the dust settled down, I had a good feel for the deck, the realisation that it was really not as perfect as I though, and good memories of a first turn win with a Rainbow Vale. But still, the sheer speed was there, and it worked as planned. Against most decks, they just didn't have enough ressources when I got off to stop me. And I think this should always be the first objective of combo deck: win before they can do anything. Sure, you can always play a combo deck packed with Counterspells and reactive and defensive cards, but then, what's the point. Just play Morphling, it takes less slots.

On the next week, I took it (without changes) to a major Type 1 tournament in Montreal. There were 45 people, and I ended up 12th, with a 4-2 record. When I came into the place, Dragon decks were the big buzz. Everybody was talking about it, and the metagame just wasn't good for Dragon decks. Everyone had some form of hate against it. 4 players played the deck, including me, and at least 1 player made top 8. I also saw for the first time what other minds had come up with. The first thing I noticed was that I was the only one playing my win conditions main deck. Everyone else played Cunning Wish with a sideboard Stroke of Genius. Also, I was the only one with no main deck defense. Most players used Duress and Defense Grid. There were a few differences like some using Intuition with 3 Worldgorger Dragon and minor stuff like that, but the rest of the deck was pretty standard, including the Tainted Pact. Last difference, I was the only one with access to the whole power nine.

Before this event, I was very confident. In fact, I think I gave way too much credit to my previous week victory (with a bit of insight, I now see that it meant just about nothing except that my deck has a good mana base since I didn't get mana screwed, but the metagame for that tournament wasn't worth jack shit). In Montreal, at least half of the players had some form of power cards, and the player quality was far better than the small tourney. A wide range of decks were played, with no deck being clearly dominant in term of number of participants.

Iteration 2 - 4 heads are better than just 1

After this event, and a bitter loss in the last round when I played Demonic Consultation for Black Lotus and got the Lotus as one of the last cards of my deck (having removed my 7 animation effects), I drew the following conclusions (most of those are based on discussion with other dragon players and their decklist):

- The deck is viable, and is good.

- It needs some main deck disruption.

- Defense Grid and Duress are good choices.

- There's no reason not to play Cunning Wish.

So I built and tuned a new version of the deck. I cutted some land, added Duress main deck, placed Defense Grid in the sideboard, and I cut some sub-optimal cards like Fact or Fiction and Frantic Search (Fact or Fiction is sub-optimal in a deck that expects to win before it gets 4 mana source). And that's about it. I didn't test it. I just waited 'till next month. I saw discussions popping up on the net about the deck, and the beginning of the schisms between Entomb and Buried Alive (the Aerial Caravan version). I didn't add much to any discussion because, honestly, I wasn't sure if my experience with the deck was enough, and I hadn't posted a win in a major tournament. And it was fun seeing how most people starting threads about it were just about as cluless as me on some points, probably because they hadn't played their deck in anything bigger than their small local tournaments (just as I had done that first week).

The most evident point I think people have to realise is that there's no advantage in playing any other kill method than Cunning Wish. It's like trying to use Shock instead of Lightning Bolt in Slight. No point in it. As for the rest, the option of playing more blue with Force of Will, or Duress, or both, were all open (and still are) to debate. Also, I saw very few people suggesting Necropotence, the all time champion of combo card drawing. And there was the debate about using Dark Ritual or no (sure, if you don't play Dark Ritual, Necropotence isn't much of an option). My opinion on this matter is that Dark Ritual are worth playing. Even if I have all the power cards, I still get a speed boost out of a first turn Ritual that would otherwise cost me 1 turn or more. They become vital for those people without access to 0 casting cost mana acceleration. Without them, you sacrifice speed, and speed is what this deck is all about. Evidently, in versions running Duress AND Force of Will, Dark Ritual can often be the easiest card to cut, but I never was in favor of a much protected combo. Other cards I saw suggested were Intuition (probably good with Force of Will), mass card drawing like Wheel of Fortune, Windfall and Timetwister (I'd rather go with Necropotence than those more symetric card drawing engines) and that's about it.

I didn't saw any real significant suggestion or revolutionary idea. Mostly personnal preferences by different players. Thus, I sticked to what I had developped based on that first experiment in a true powered wide range tourmanent.

1 month later, we're back again to Carta Magica in Montreal for a Type 1 tournament. 40 players, I ended up 18th with a 3-3 record. The metagame was about the same as last month, minus the impact of dragon. Much less hate against the deck, players having overcome their fear that this deck would dominate the field. I realised something I would have known (again) if I had tested the deck against a live opponent instead of just drawing hands alone at home during this tournament: Defense Grid is useless against creature kill. Also, I often kept semi-good hands in the hope that I'd draw the good components. This technic of play worked well in the first small tournament because I never faced any really treatening opponent or deck, but here, if you do nothing on your 1st or 2nd turn, you'll get your hand destroyed or your ressources attacked. So I need to take more aggressive mulligans.

Here are my conclusions after this second tournament (and I was really on a down after that one):

- Defense Grid is totally useless in the sideboard, and barely usefull in the main deck.

- More important than with many other decks, you need to master the art of mulliganning.

- The worst card to face is Swords to Plowshares.

- The worst matchup are mono black (with heavy discard and Diabolic Edict) and Enchantress.

- Duress is good, but in no way does it make your combo work 100% of the time.

Now, I think many people will try to argue about Defense Grid. I remember one player, after the first monthly tournament, naming Defense Grid is MVP for the tournament. Well, then, tell me when will Defense Grid help you? There are 4 things that hose Timmy Eat World: instant speed creature removal, counterspells, permanents hoser (like Planar Void or Ivory Mask) and instant speed graveyard-enchantment removal. Of the 4, the first is the most common, and the one you have to worry most about. And Defense Grid does nothing about it. Because, once the Worldgorger Dragon is in play, your Defense Grid isn't there anymore to help. So, at best, it will allow you to get your permanents back instead of having them permanently removed. Where Defense Grid shine is versus the 2nd category of hoser: Counterspells. Effectively, a 1st turn Defense Grid can generaly shut down a blue deck strategy. But, do you know many blue deck that don't pack Hydroblast or Blue Elemental Blast? Because those 2 cards will kill you wether you have Defense Grid or no since they act as creature removal. So, after sideboard, Defense Grid isn't better versus blue control than versus White Weenie, Enchantress or Suicide Black. Against the 3rd category, Defense Grid does nothing. The only defense here is some form of bouce or destruction (Rushing River, Recoil and Capsize being favorites). Finally, the only use of Defense Grid is against the 4th kind of hoser (and even there, it won't help much versus graveyard removal, but it will at least nullify enchantment removal), where your Defense Grid AND your animating enchantment leave play together. So, is a card that protects you against the more limited form of disruption you'll face worth it? That's what I though: NO!

My conclusions about Duress were drawn after too many match of playing Duress to watch a hand containing more than 1 creature removal spell.

And, about my evaluation of Swords to Plowshares and the matchups, this is heavily influenced by what I faced during those 2 big tournaments. I played only 1 control match (versus a U/W deck), and I never faced mono-blue, URphidian nor Keeper. Probably because they were fighting at the top tables while I was hanging out in the middle range. Anyway, this brings up the next part:

Iteration 3 - Species evolve in order to survive in their environment, just like decks have to adapt to their metagame

So, now, I needed some way to replace Duress and better fight creature removal (witch has been my worst problem since playing the deck). And here's the decklist I went up with after much deliberation:

Timmy Eat World 3.5

1 x Ancestral Recall
1 x Time Walk
3 x Animate Dead
4 x Dark Ritual
1 x Demonic Tutor
1 x Black Lotus
1 x Mox Emerald
1 x Mox Jet
1 x Mox Pearl
1 x Mox Ruby
1 x Mox Sapphire
4 x Underground Sea
1 x City of Brass
4 x Dance of the Dead
1 x Demonic Consultation
1 x Necropotence
3 x Underground River
1 x Vampiric Tutor
3 x Undiscovered Paradise
4 x Gemstone Mine
3 x Whispers of the Muse
4 x Orim's Chant
1 x Forsaken City
4 x Entomb
4 x Tainted Pact
4 x Cunning Wish
2 x Worldgorger Dragon

1 x Disenchant
1 x Swords to Plowshares
1 x Counterspell
1 x Terror
1 x Red Elemental Blast
4 x Abeyance
1 x Capsize
1 x Interdict
1 x Whispers of the Muse
1 x Searing Touch
1 x Stroke of Genius
1 x Compost

The key change is the inclusion of Orim's Chant. That card does what Duress did, but 100 times better. It's only disadvantage over Duress is that it's white. Versus decks like Enchantress and mono-black, it stops their creature removal, and against blue, they must counter it or they lose. And the best of it is that it didn't impact the speed of the deck. The deck still goldfish on 2nd-3rd turn, and about half of those win would be with Chant protection. I checked if main deck Abeyance would be better (it stops Tormod's Crypt and more stuff than Orim's Chant), but it made me lose 1 turn of speed, so it wasn't worth it. Maybe if I face too much Tormod's Crypt, I'll switch Abeyance and Orim's Chant from sideboard to maindeck.

Also, for the first time, you see my sideboard. It's all instant in order to use Cunning Wish (if I draw multiples, or if I really need 1 kind of removal). The Compost is generally sided in instead of a Tainted Pact. When I Wish for the win, I go for Stroke of Genius, or Searing Touch if I fear a Misdirection. Abeyance goes in against easy matchups like Slight or Stompy, because there, they're better than Orim's Chant. As for the rest, they never see play. Whispers of the Muse is there in case I need Capsize to win (like versus a Ivory Mask). I Cunning Wish for Whispers of the Muse, draw the other Cunning Wish, and go for Capsize + my win card.

Now, I brought this deck last week to another small tournament (like the first one I mentionned), and once again, I teared through a 12 players field, losing 3 games out of 28. Of those 3 loss, 1 was because I had a 14 cards sideboard (I realized I had left my Stroke of Genius in the deck after the first game), 1 against a mono-black that just destroyed me with Hymn to Tourach and Mind Twist, and the last one in the semi-final where I kept a no land hand with Dark Ritual-Necropotence after having won the 1st game. The field isn't a very good representative of what to expect for the next Type 1 at Carta, but still, it confirmed that Orim's Chant works. And I won the last game of the final by hard casting Worldgorger Dragon on 2nd turn with Black Lotus and beating my opponent to death with it.

And so here I stand with this list, waiting to test it in a wide powered environment. I expect to make Top 8 with it. Still, there's many things that I can't measure yet: what form will the hate take, what impact will Orim's Chant really make versus blue decks (I expect it to be strong, because even if they counter the Orim's Chant, they'll be tapped out for the Animate Dead, at least in the first 3 turns), and what impact will Onslaught have.

I think my version is as optimal as it can be for an Emtomb deck. I've read a lot about Aerial Caravan, but I just won't try to debate witch one is better. Those are 2 differents deck. Timmy Eat World is all about speed. If you don't win by turn 3, you'll lose against a strong deck (with my Timmy version). That's it. Aerial Caravan decks will generally win more around turn 4 than 3, because their first combo element cost 3 to play (but they use more disruption to support the slower deck).

What I wanted to show with this post was not only a decklist, but the process leading a player to decide each card he'll use in his deck. I started with just what came to mind, added some input from other players, and now I'm adding stuff based on opposing decks. The true key is to reach the point where the only changes you can make to a deck are metagame based, and it can take years to reach this. The deck is still young by Type 1 standards, and not that much people have put their mind to work on it. But I'll continue, because, even if it isn't for your opponent, regular 1st turn victories are fun, and that's what you can dream of when using this deck.

I'd like to see people discuss my decklist, particularly ways to better use the sideboard, and possible improvements (if you want to suggest card change, remember that I tried many versions before coming up with this). Also, if someone played the deck for some time, I'd like to see some matchups analysis, particularly versus control because I don't have much experience there (and don't just say it beats aggro, everyone knows that). And if you got a better name to suggest for the deck, don't be shy.

And, lastly, I'd like to see people discuss deck construction and evolution process in general. New and original decks that work are rare, and I won't claim I invented Worldgorger Dragon decks, but I got to this point mostly by using my brain and reflecting on tournament results I had. How do you people go on when you want to play a new deck? (Maybe it'd be better to start a new thread about this)

François Laroche

[BigChuck]

Your list is pretty good. I actually really like the look of this deck at first glance. The one thing I might question is the high amount of undiscovereds. I think it would work just as well with those being cities of brass, as sligh is the only deck that might make one or two extra damage really count early. Also, could you possibly find room for a mystical? It gets entomb/whispers, which are both keys to your deck, so I'm having trouble rationalizing it not being there. I'm not sure about some of the cards in your board either. What do you plan on interdicting? Also, do you really need four abeyance AND four chant? That seems like a REAL lot to me. Maybe one abeyance, so you can wish for it, but I don't see you boarding in so you have 8 against anything. I think the board needs some work , but the MD is solid.

[Matt The Great]

You can't go infinite with a City of Brass.

[dicemanX]

Sick_boy, you should check out the three Worldgorger threads in this forum. I have worked a significant amount on the deck, and feel that I am qualified to tell you that your version is still not yet optimal for a number of reasons:

1) You run a three card combo. Its much better to run a blend of the 2 and 3 card combo versions. In my deck (in the worldgorger.dec) I run both Entomb and Buried Alive along with the Caravan. I have more win conditions than you do, AND I can win with only 2 cards. Remember, if you get a gorger in the graveyard, an entomb functions as a kill card. Try goldfishing my version and you'll see how consistent it is and how fast it can kill.

2) You run the inferior Whispers of the muse instead of the incredible Intuitions. Intuitions function as kill, tutors, or Entomb effects. They are the most flexible cards in the deck.
If you are really concerned with Misdirection, put a Whispers in your SB. Also, consult is suicidal and Necro is risky against fast aggro decks (and is a nombo with Worldgorger). I would run a Mystical Tutor, Wheel of Fortune, and Timetwister. With these changes, Pacts are probably unneccessary, so you can run the more important disruption your deck desperately needs.

3) The disruption plan:

Against decks without counterspells: If you fear Tormod's Crypts, Swords, Disenchants, etc. the solution is Abeyance. Run one main deck and one in the SB, so you have 7 ways of getting it (Wishes, Tutors + drawing it). Decks that pack creature removal are usually not that fast, so you have a bit of time to set up. I have crushed EVERY deck that didn't have counters, no matter how many disruption effects they were running.

(Incidentally, if you hold two Animate cards and are ready to go off but fear a creature removal spell (except StP) you can sandbag a land. You can animate your Dragon and if they remove it when its cip goes on the stack, you can still drop your sandbagged land and go off with a second animate).

Against decks with counters: Grids are an absolute MUST. I believe your argument against Grids is flawed. Counters are the ONLY worry against a prepared Dragon deck, and Grids are the #1 card to deal with this threat. Against mono-U, I will have 4x REB (a must to stop B2B), 3x FoW, 3x Leak, 4x Grid. If they don't have a FoW early to stop a quick Grid, they are in BIG trouble. In all of my tournament/testing experiences, Grids are absolutely key vs mono-U/other heavy counter decks.

Against Suicide: one of the best ways to combat suicide is to either topdeck into a win (easy with the two card combo), or run Wheel and Timetwister with Demonic/Vampiric/Mystical Tutor. I have won more than I lost vs Suicide because I have so many ways to recover. When suicide gets a disruption heavy hand, they typically won't kill you as quickly (4-5 turns) as Sligh for instance, so you have the time to recover.


3) Main deck disruption: because I run so many U-spells, I run FoW:

3x FoW
3x Mana Leak
2x Grid
1x Abeyance

SB:

4x REB
2x Grid
1x Abeyance
3x Pernicious Deed

I believe that Leaks are better than Duress, because of the squeeze principle: If you duress and your opponent is holding 2 copies of a disruption spell, then you won't get your combo through (for example, if opponent has two untapped islands/plains and two counterspells/Disenchants in hand, then Leak is better than Duress). Leaks + FoWs also help immensely vs Suicide. I believe you need disruption that will buy you turns against fast aggro decks/heavy disruprion decks, NOT disruption whos sole purpose is to shield the combo once you start to go off (Chant).

4) I don't use rituals, because they destabilize the mana base. I prefer 24-25 SoLoMoxen/Lands. I do use a Mana Crypt though for extra speed.

You can PM me if you have any questions, but I would suggest that you give my version a try and compare its speed and disruption to your build.

[Sapromancer]

i also think 3 undiscovered is to much, i think you should run 1x UP and 3x CoB, or maybe go 2:2, but 3 undiscovered paradise can be a hasstle if you drew them in your opening hand.

im not to sure about tainted pact... i think  the tainted pact slots you should have M. Tutor, Merchant Scroll, and 2x Intuition. also, i think FoW is just a Must in this deck.

i run:

4x FoW
2x MisD
4x Duress

and i've found it to be a good number of disruption cards. im glad to see you are running cunning wish, as stroke in the MD is just not optimal anymore. i think you could cut 1 reanimator also, i run 6 and its very solid, and it will free up a slot for more disruption/draw


i've also been toying around with an idea, i've been running 1x aerial caravan in my Dragon (witch is the whispers/entomb version) plus one non-instant kill card (take your pick)
it enables you to go off w/o whispers, or cunning wish in hand by simply reanimating the caravan after you go infinite then searching for a kill. its praticularly nice if your wish/stroke/whispers gets countered.
(allthough you should usualy not go off w/o chant/FoW Backup, but i digress...)

i've also thought about meddling mage in the deck... it hase a few positive aspects, it stops STP/edict/crypt/random counters on demand, and its also pitchable to FoW, havent tried this out yet but i think its worth a little testing.

anyway just throwing some of my own thoughts on the deck out there. glad to see someone putting some new twists on the deck. this will overall help to make the deck more optimal no matter if you have success or not.

good luck optimizing your build

--Sapro

Please do not use that green.  It's fairly hard to read on the pale blue background and hurts the eyes. -JP\n\n

[SiCK_Boy]

BigChuck: As Matt stated, you can't go infinite with City of Brass. That's why I only use 1. And Undiscovered Paradise remains the best option besides Gemstone Mine to get the 5 colors of mana. It hasn't proved to be much of a problem anyway, because you rarely play more than 2 or 3 lands in a game (I admit I never faced much land destruction).

Mystical was there in previous build, and it's great. I could maybe try it instead of the Demonic Consultation. It's mostly a matter of personal preference, and probably if I got screwed by Demonic Consulatation too often, I'd make that switch, but for now I only got 1 bad consult in about 50-60 games, so I'll keep it. But Mystical Tutor is definitively worth playing when you can find a slot for it (maybe cut another land).

The sideboard is sketchy. I plan on using Interdict against Tormod's Crypt, but it's mostly there because I don't know what else to play there. The following cards from the sideboard are really situational and never saw play: Disenchant, Swords to Plowshares, Counterspell, Terror, Red Elemental Blast, Interdict and Searing Touch.

The Abeyance are there to be switched with the Orim's Chant versus easy match, as explained in my post. Against Slight for exemple, Orim's Chant isn't a factor (as opposed to how important it gets versus a White deck), so it's better to use a cycling card like Abeyance. Also, versus some decks, Abeyance are better, particularly versus Tormod's Crypt. And as you stated, I can Wish for it, so whatever the result, I'd always keep at least 1 there. In fact, while typing it, I just realized I could use 4 sideboard slots for some card drawing (maybe Impulse) to side in versus easy matchup instead of the Chant, and keep Abeyance against Crypt.

DiceMan: Reading your answer, my first reaction was that you sucked. One thing I think you didn't get right and made me take your answer the wrong way: essentially, what you suggested is that I play your deck. Not very constructive or helpfull. You never tryed to explain the problem in my philosophy of the deck (SPEED is all that matters), and you didn't try to explain yours either.

Now, I've been reading your post in the other thread, and you make some interesting suggestions. I won't try to refute all your arguments (well, I tryed, but there's no point in posting it). You're favoring a version that packs what you consider to be heavy disruption with consistency. And your version seems to do just that. I believe your version is still 1 turn slower than mine. You'll never win turn 1 (well, almost never), while I can get it about 10% of the time (got those numbers out of about 70 games + 100 goldfishing draws). I also get most of my win on turn 2, while yours seem to be on turn 3. And that's why I just can't agree with you, because of this fundamental vision of the deck. I want SPEED!

I really don't see where your love for Defense Grid comes from, except if blue mages don't use Blue Elemental Blast or Hydroblast in your metagame. And I still don't see how they're good versus White Weenie. And you mentioned playing in multiple tournaments, but if they're 3 rounds tournament (thus 8 players), I don't think they mean much. In the small tournaments I played, I played over 25 games each time, while you play at most 15 in a 3 rounds event. But I think they show some good basis in your deck, just like I got my first good feels from that kind of tournament.

A few things I take from what you said:

- Wheel of Fortune versus suicide. This I'll try.

- Putting Verdant Force in the sideboard. Well, it reminded me I could go the old reanimator way versus control deck, maybe fitting Nether Spirit or Multani, Maro-Sorcerer and 4 Negator in the side to throw off blue mages, going for some hybrid of suicide/reanimator instead of combo deck. But I don't think I'll try it, I just found the idea good. Anyway, if Reanimator was better, why not play it in the first place?

- Tarnished Citadel. I'll replace 1 Undiscovered Paradise with 1 Tarnished Citadel. It'll also help with Tainted Pact.

Those are the only points (and the 2nd and 3rd one were made in the other thread) I'll try to implement, simply because they are the only points not going fundamentaly against my vision of the deck. The rest of your suggestions just don't work.

Sapromancer:

I'll try cutting 1 Undiscovered Paradise, but they're not that bad when you have the 5 moxes, because the Mox gives you the colorless to play Animate Dead. You can play the same Undiscovered Paradise on the first 2 or even 3 turns without being too slowed (sure, it slows you, but not as worst as if you play a deck with a curve ranging from 1 to 5 mana).

I'll look about cutting 1 animation effect. Maybe 1 main deck Abeyance, but I'm not convinced. I'll need to test my build in a big tournament before making such a change.

Tainted Pact is my key search engine. It's the best thing there is beside a real tutor under 3 mana.

About Meddling Mage, it feels counterintuitive to play a creature like that in a combo deck. Maybe as a surprise in side? I don't know.

Well, still, thanks for the imput. I think maybe I should have waited for the next big Type 1 tournament before posting this, because I'm reluctant to changes after winning an event (even if it was a small one).

[BigChuck]

First of all, I'm aware you can't go off with a city, but can you honestly tell me that you often have only cities as your mana? I would find that hard to believe if it was more then 10% of the time, of that much.

The tutor/consultation thing is probably preference, but I just can't justify running something that can remove your win conditions from the game. Mystical is never dead, where you may not want to play consult if there is no dragon in your grave.

About your board: I Don't see much use to swords and terror. The only thing I'm thinking of where this would be useful is the mirror, in which case, you really don't need two ways to kill it, as one would function just fine. I mean, if you don't go off early, your probably not going to be able to spend your time screwing around wishing for terrors to try and kill crap.

I missed the part about abeyance/chant in your post, but I still don't see the need for that many. I don't think its worth taking four cards in your board to side in for something that does the same thing, except slightly worse. Why not just play abeyance to begin with and a chant in the board, if you feel abeyance superior?

Having played diceman's deck, you don't give it enough credit. But in my preliminary examinations of your deck, I really like it. I'm going to at least throw it together and give it a try. I agree with all the points you made in regards to the wheel, etc. I definitely think the wheel is worth playing too. It's not like you don't have the red mana, and helps in many different ways(dumping dragon, etc.). I guess the tarnished citadel is worth a try, because, as I mentioned before, the damage shouldn't matter unless your not going off anyway.

If you'd like to test, AIM me at BigChuck2k1,

[dicemanX]

Quote You'll never win turn 1 (well, almost never), while I can get it about 10% of the time (got those numbers out of about 70 games + 100 goldfishing draws). I also get most of my win on turn 2, while yours seem to be on turn 3. And that's why I just can't agree with you, because of this fundamental vision of the deck. I want SPEED!

If I wanted even more speed in my deck, I could easily substitute 5 disruption slots/mana slots for 4 Dark Rituals/additional Entomb. Then I would have the speed of your deck, and I would also get the frequent turn 1 and 2 kills, AND I would be more consistent (not having to rely on 3 cards to win). However, I would prefer mana consistency and not having to rely on a 3 card combo over killing 10% of the time on turn 1. What is the difference really between turn 1/2 kills and turn 3 kills vs aggro?

Quote  really don't see where your love for Defense Grid comes from, except if blue mages don't use Blue Elemental Blast or Hydroblast in your metagame. And I still don't see how they're good versus White Weenie.

Grids do not help vs ww. That is what the Abeyance plan is for. Like I said in my post, you shouldn't have trouble with non-counter decks. They have no way to stop you, and finding Abeyance in time to combo them out is faster than the pressure they can put on you.

If mono-U brings in BEBs, this does not in any way invalidate the use of Grids. The idea post SB is to have the following game plan: get the Grid down, and set up your hand so you have Abeyance to protect your combo. Having REBs, Leaks, and FoWs helps get the Grid and Abeyance through. Your approach of 4x Chant and 4x Abeyance is also a solid plan, except that those disruption cards only help you when you are ready to go off. Having counters as your disruption will give you more flexibility, especially against a deck like suicide, which I imagine tears you apart more often than not.  

Quote Not very constructive or helpfull. You never tryed to explain the problem in my philosophy of the deck(SPEED is all that matters), and you didn't try to explain yours either.

There is no problem with the "philosophy" of the deck. My intent was not to blatently advocate my build over yours - our decks are essentially the same, except that in my opinion I have more flexibility with my build because I use a few different cards than you do. All I wanted to do was to give you the benefit of my playtesting and experience. You can say I suck or that I'm some sort of n00b who doesn't know what he's talking about, it really doesn't make any difference to me. You can also claim that you have played more (important) tournament matches vs my "meagre" three round efforts, or that you playtested more...if you want to stick to your guns and go with your build, that's up to you.


The problem is the sub-optimal card choices, like running Whispers over Intuitions, or not using Wheel/Twister + Mystical Tutor. Additionally, devoting one slot to the Caravan makes the deck that much better, and allows you to win with just two combo pieces. And I still disagree with running rituals over land, but that's your preference. I still think that having a more solid mana base is more important than getting lucky with the occasional turn 1 kill.

The explanations for the choices are in the other threads. I will summarize them here though:

Intuition vs Whispers - like I said, Intuition is more flexible. If you are concerned with the 3 mana cost of Intuition, consider the fact that playing your Whispers as a cantrip (if you would otherwise not have the mana early and are forced to cantrip it) is not a strong play anyways, as you are trading a kill card for a random top deck. Your concern about Misdirection when you go off - Intuition can get around it if you go for Entomb (to get Caravan), or get Wish to get your Whispers in the SB.


Caravan - adding this along with some Buried Alives to your deck will improve it immensely. Why? It will give you additional ways to put a Gorger in the graveyard (you have Entomb, Intuition, and Buried to do this), and it will allow you to win with just two cards. This is a HUGE difference over relying on the three card combo. This approach will also turn all of your animate cards into threats without relying on kill cards. It also turns all of your Entombs into kill cards. Finally, you avoid having "bottlenecks" against control decks - what I mean is, having only 4 ways of putting a Gorger in the graveyard is a recipe for disaster. It's much better to have great redundancy with every combo piece you use.

Twister + Wheel + Mystical - Like I said, these are your potential weapons vs Suicide, and are good in games where you do not have all of the combo pieces and need to draw lots of cards. They are good vs control too, as you will rarely have card advantage over them. Finally, Wheel helps to put your drawn animals in the graveyard.

FoW + Leak + Grid as your disruption base - the counters will help vs Suicide much more than Chants. Otherwise, your choice of Chants + Abeyance is a very solid choice. I still think your build will get rocked first game vs control, and it might get worse game 2 when they bring in BEBs. The problem is that your mana base does not support playing multiple Chants/Abeyance in one turn, so as long as they have the capability of countering twice in a turn you will be hurting. The other problem is that you have to take cards out to bring in extra disruption, which means your 3 card combo will most likely suffer. One final problem vs control is with your mana base. You have 21 sources +4 Rituals. A deck like mono-U or Keeper can beat you by aggressively attacking your mana base with Wastes (especially if they target your W sources), Kegs, and B2B.


Hope that helps. Good luck in the next tournament, whatever advice you choose to follow. I eagerly await to hear how the Dragon deck will do.

[CrazyCarl]

Quote First of all, I'm aware you can't go off with a city, but can you honestly tell me that you often have only cities as your mana? I would find that hard to believe if it was more then 10% of the time, of that much.

You actually CAN use City of Brass to go off, the damage is a triggered effect of tapping and uses the stack.  So you just respond to all those infinte tappings of the City(cuz everything in the Entomb version occurs at instant speed) with whatever you need to kill(after you get like, ten billion mana of each color).

Carl

[BigChuck]

I'm not sure it would be able to get stacked right. I remember seeinng this:

Quote 1 - Player A plays Animate Dead. Animate Dead goes on the stack.

2 - Both player have an opportunity to add spells or abilities to the stack.

3 - Animate Dead resolves. It's come into play ability triggers, and goes on stack, targetting Worldgorger Dragon.

4 - Both player have an opportunity to add spells or abilities to the stack.

5 - Animate Dead come into play ability resolves. Worldgorger Dragon is put into play. Worldgorger Dragon come into play ability triggers and goes on the stack.

6 - Both player have an opportunity to add spells or abilities to the stack.

7 - Worldgorger Dragon come into play ability resolves. All permanents other than Worldgorger Dragon are removed from the game. Animate Dead leave play ability triggers and goes on the stack.

8 - Both player have an opportunity to add spells or abilities to the stack.

9 - Animate Dead leave play ability resolves. Worldgorger Dragon is destroyed and placed in the graveyard. Worldgorger Dragon leave play ability triggers and goes on the stack.

10 - Both player have an opportunity to add spells or abilities to the stack.

11 - Worldgorger Dragon leave play ability resolves, and all permanents come back into play. Animate Dead come into play ability triggers and goes on the stack, targetting Worldgorger Dragon.

12 - Both player have an opportunity to add spells or abilities to the stack.

I'm not sure at which point it would work. I know you can win with say a lightning bolt, with you at one and them at 3, but I don't think it works that way. I think once you tap the city, the effect of the damage would have to resolve as the dragon leaving/coming into play would be such that the stack would need to be clear for them to actually do it. I think that you would take the damage, the dragon would go away, everything comes back, you take the damage, dragon goes away, ETC. Your not responding to the damage going on the stack with anything untill you actually happen to kill someone.

[SiCK_Boy]

Carl: No you can't. You have to resolve City of Brass triggered ability before continuing the loop, and thus you'll die after tapping it 20 times.

[dicemanX]

Some other thoughts:

How often do you find yourself searching beyond the first 4 cards with Tainted Pacts? I ask because perhaps Impulse might be a consideration, to increase the number of blue cards so you can potentially run FoWs. FoWs are better if you run the ritual version for speed, especially because you don't have a dependence on W-producing mana sources with it. But, of course, you can only play FoWs if you have enough blue cards...

You mentioned that Abeyance might cost you an extra turn versus Chant, but watch out for decks like Enchantress that can drop a Seal of Cleansing, or Keeper that drops Aura Fracture, or even Stompy dropping a Druid Lyrist. It will be more annoying for you to rely on finding (and casting!) a Wish just to fetch an Abeyance to bail yourself out.

Re: City of Brass and stacking damage - I never even considered that you can stack it to avoid damage, but I'm not clear why you cannot do this. If all of the steps in each of the cycles keep adding to the stack, can't you just resolve everything on the stack right up to taking the damage, and then start adding to the stack again? Why would you ever need to clear the stack (and take the damage) before progressing to the next loop?

In any case, I still think that you can afford to play more than 1 CoB, since, as BigChuck pointed out, rarely will the City be your only mana source. This might be important as you run white cards as your disruption with only 10 sources (11 with Lotus), and most deck pack 5 wastes/strips to make it even more difficult. And I'm still not convinced about my previous suggestion of Tarnished Citadel.

[SiCK_Boy]

Generally, I go as far as needed with Tainted Pact. I can go for 3 cards with the Pact: Entomb, Animate Dead/Dance of the Dead or Orim's Chant. The only cards that make me stop beside that would be if I get Worldgorger Dragon. I don't go that often beyond 4 or 5 cards because I generally get what I want by that point, but I sometimes go as far as 8 or 10. Also, I often go off when I only have Tainted Pact in hand because I'm confident to fetch Whispers of the Muse or Cunning Wish off it.

The white mana requirement for Orim's Chant hasn't been a problem 'till now. I admit I never faced much land destruction (except from a Nether Void deck that I still wrecked), and maybe this could make me change of opinion, but for now I think Chant are as good as Force of Will to disrupt. The main objective of my disruption is to protect myself from creature removal, and Chant is better than Force of Will in that respect.

I know Abeyance stops far more things than Orim's Chant. That's why I put 4 in the sideboard. If I see Seal of Cleansing of any of the cards you mentioned, I'll bring them in. But I'd rather go for that 1 turn faster in the first game.

About City of Brass, the reason you can't go infinite with it is that all of the combo is based on triggered abilities. You have to resolve those abilities before going to the next step. If the abilities were activated, there would be some way to go around the City of Brass damage, but not with the way they work as worded. Anyway, this is more pertinent in the rule forum.

About Tarnished Citadel, I really think it's worth playing 1 instead of an Undiscovered Paradise. I generally don't use a land more than 2 or 3 times during a game, and the Citadel will mostly be used once or twice per game at most for color. And I think it's probably better than Forsaken City too, but I'll keep that one to help Tainted Pacts.

Finally, I'd just like to add that I'll test some of your suggestions tonight. I'll check to see how much of an impact it has if I replace my 3 Whispers of the Muse by 2 Intuition and a Aerial Caravan, and I'll post back results.

[dicemanX]

Quote The white mana requirement for Orim's Chant hasn't been a problem 'till now.

Actually, my concern would be having the ability to Chant or Abeyance twice in one turn vs control. If the control deck makes it to two lands (or a land and a Mox and they run leaks), they might very well have the ability to counter twice if they have FoW in hand. That might leave you in a spot of trouble, unless you are fortunate to be able to overwhelm them with threats (like having 2x Animates or 2x kill card).

Quote
Finally, I'd just like to add that I'll test some of your suggestions tonight. I'll check to see how much of an impact it has if I replace my 3 Whispers of the Muse by 2 Intuition and a Aerial Caravan, and I'll post back results.

You have the option of running Caravan even without Buried Alive, as it will turn your Entombs into win conditions. I'm not sure if Intuition is 100% compatible with the mana base (using rituals), but I still think it will help you much more often than Whispers.

Incidentally, the way I often like to test vs Sligh/Suicide is to pretend that they start off with two strips, and see how well the deck performs for you. Then, to ramp up the difficulty, I have the decks put two mana on the table after the wastes, and Suicide holds an Edict while Sligh has Fireblast + Bolt (so if you use a Dance in your combo, you're safe). For the ultimate difficulty vs Suicide, I start them off with ritual + Duress + Hymn. If you can get even a small win precent off that start, I'd consider it a success.

I also start off mono-U control with FoW, Leak, Land, Mox and the rest is various. Then I ramp it up to adding a strip, land, Mana Drain, and Keg. If your deck can withstand such powerful early disruption, you are in pretty good shape. Finally, I do a goldfish run vs another combo deck, giving them one time FoW capability.

I don't know how people are accustomed to doing their testing, but this is the "mini-gauntlet" I like to use for the Dragon deck. Just a suggestion, if you want to give it a try.

Good luck!

[BigChuck]

I think that just throwing in the caravan somewhere would help, even without the buried alives. As Diceman said, the caravans would make your second, etc. entombs much more worthwhile, as opposed to drawing multiples and being pissed because it's useless.

In adress to the chant, I think it is slightly worse then counters against control, but I think it is far superior against aggro, where you can just pay one mana, and stop all there creature kill/enchantment kill that may be lurking in there hands. If something is already in play that stops your combo, then the counter/chant debate is moot, as neither would matter. Considering that most of the things that are commonly played to stop this(Furnace, Lyrist, Crypt) be played first turn, that probably isn't all that uncommon. I'm really not sure which I would rather play though.

As for your gauntlet, I think you might be making a mistake by setting the opponents hands to a degree. If you don't set there hand, say suicide gets a first turn negator, second turn shade, with no disruption. If you don't go off, then they will probably kill you. I think by making them start with X disruption spells, then you might be at a loss when they rip out fast creatures against you. As you've stated before, you CAN topdeck into a win, so it makes the disruption somewhat moot.

[SiCK_Boy]

I posted a reply yesterday, but it seems to have been lost somehow...

Anyway, here I go again:

Diceman: I understand your concern about white mana to cast 2 Orim's Chant in the same turn versus a control deck. And I agree it could be hard to have those 2 mana, but here's why it's not a problem: with only 4 Orim's Chant in the deck, I never expect to have 2 in hand at the same time. As BigChuck explained, Orim's Chant are better versus creature removal, and that's the main reason they're there. I don't fear counter as much as you because I've yet to face it often enough. In the situation you explained, if my opponent was tapped out after countering my Orim's Chant, I'd probably try to go off anyway, and if he has Force of Will, I'd hope to get another Animate Dead or Dance of the Dead (far easier than another Orim's Chant) in the next turn.

Testing Aerial Caravan instead of a Whispers of the Muse effectively replace 1 win condition by 3 (the other Entomb). I too ain't totally convinced about the mana base to support Intuition, particularly because I rarely go beyond 3 mana source and a single Strip Mine could wreck me if I depended too much on those.

I'm not convinced about your testing method. Giving perfect hands to your opponents isn't a great way to test because you could as well have the perfect hand. Nobody can beat a 1st turn Duress-Hymn to Tourach, particularly if it's backed up by more pressure (like Hypnotic Specter), barring a top deck of some broken stuff, like Dark Ritual-Necropotence, or Ancestral Recall, or Black Lotus-Yawgmoth's Will.

Generally, when testing alone, I just goldfish, using this method mostly to see the absolute speed of the deck (that is, speed if the opponent does nothing) and get a feel for the mana base and general top decking chances.

If I really fall in love with the Aerial Caravan, I'll maybe look to add a Buried Alive, probably instead of Necropotence or a Tainted Pact. For now, I haven't done enough playtesting to make a definitive opinion.

Finally, Diceman, could you post your actual decklist (in this thread or the one in the Vintage forum), I'd like to test it as you play it (I realized that I was dismissing many of your ideas just by looking at them on paper (well, on screen actually), and that's not really the best way to go at it).

[dicemanX]

Quote I'm not convinced about your testing method. Giving perfect hands to your opponents isn't a great way to test because you could as well have the perfect hand. Nobody can beat a 1st turn Duress-Hymn to Tourach, particularly if it's backed up by more pressure (like Hypnotic Specter), barring a top deck of some broken stuff, like Dark Ritual-Necropotence, or Ancestral Recall, or Black Lotus-Yawgmoth's Will.

This testing method is used to determine how the deck handles early disruption. You getting perfect hands is irrelevant. What's relevant is how the deck can deal with disruption with only an average draw, which is what you will get most of the time at a tournament. Also, this approach does not replace regular testing vs those same decks, where the hands are not set up (I should have clarified this...my bad). If you're just goldfishing, you might miss the potency of just one or two early disruption spells from your opponent that might seal the game for them. If the field you play in is any good at type 1, you WILL get disrupted early.  

Quote Finally, Diceman, could you post your actual decklist (in this thread or the one in the Vintage forum), I'd like to test it as you play it

I'll include the decklist here and give an overview for the sake of the other readers interested in this thread.


3x Buried Alive
3x Entomb
3x Animate Dead
4x Dance of the Dead

2x Worldgorger Dragon
1x Aerial Caravan
----------------------
16 combo


3x Cunning Wish
3x Intuition
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Mystical Tutor
----------------------
9 fetch cards

1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Twister
1x Wheel of Fortune
----------------------
3 draw

3x Force of Will
3x Mana Leak
2x Defense Grid
1x Abeyance
----------------------
9 disruption

7x SoLoMoxen
1x Mana Crypt
4x Underground Sea
2x Underground River
4x Gemstone Mine
2x Undiscovered Paradise
1x City of Brass
3x Volcanic Island
----------------------
24 mana sources


SB

1x Stroke of Genius
1x Rushing River
1x Abeyance
1x Misdirection
4x Red Elemental Blast
2x Defense Grid
3x Pernicious Deed
2x variable

The variable slot was CoP:Black for a while (never needed to use it though), but I'm thinking of adding 2x Abeyance in the SB. Verdant Force is another strong candidate, but I have yet to test its effectiveness vs Suicide/mono-U. There was a recent addition of a maindeck Abeyance (after being informed that Grid does not stop instant speed removal), which for now is the 61st card until I decide what the lesser of two evils is: cutting a card to go back down to 60, or removing a MD card (however, all of them are quite vital to this deck's performance).


The idea behind the deck is to merge the two and three card combos, while having the SAME or GREATER amount of combo pieces than just the two or three card combos alone. For clarification, the two card combo is Buried Alive (for Caravan and Worldgorger) and an Animate card, while the three card combo is Entomb, an Animate card, and any kill card (such as Whispers, Wishes, Magma Mines etc.)

This deck WILL play in identical fashion to both the three card combo and the two card combo, so there is no dilution as a result of the merge. More importantly, you have far greater redundancy than the two unmerged combo decks:

1) Getting a Dragon in the graveyard: 9 ways

3x Intuition
3x Buried Alive
3x Entomb

This is the one big weakness of both the two and three card combos, which typically run ONLY 4x Buried Alive or 4xEntomb, while relying on search if they don't have these cards in hand initially. This is particularly troublesome against a counter deck that might try to disrupt you at this "bottleneck", or a deck like Suicide (or other Dragon decks packing Duress!) that might try to nab these cards.

2) animate effects: 7

4x Dance of the Dead
3x Animate Dead

Dances are usually more important because your Dragon can withstand a Bolt + Fireblast combo vs Sligh, which might be quite crucial. Some Dragon players swear by only six animate effects, but I'm happy with seven because it's typically a game-ending threat, and can be as good as a disruption spell against mono-U. Never underestimate massive redundancy. Even if your opponent is using Disenchants, Edicts etc., as long as you save a land in your hand, you can go off by casting two animates on the same turn as long as they use only one creature removal spell.

3) Your "kill" cards if no Caravan is in the graveyard: 8-9

3x Cunning Wish
3x Intuition
3x Entomb (-1 if you used one to get Worldgorger in the graveyard)

Here is where I think this deck shines above most other builds. It does NOT use any kill cards that don't perform any other major functions in this deck (such as Magma Mines, Whispers of the Muse, Stroke etc.) Notice that Intuition can function as two different combo pieces, while also working as a tutor for disruption or card drawing (you can intuition for 2x Tutors/1x Draw 7 to guarantee yourself a draw 7). The caveat to using Intuition is the need to have a solid mana base to cast it consistently. 24 sources, using a Mana Crypt, have held up for me, but I wouldn't recommend it to those players using 20-21 sources.

Here are the rest of the choices and their explanations:

A) Card draw/Tutor base


3x Intuition
3x Mystical/Vampiric/Demonic Tutors
1x Timetwister
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Ancestral Recall

The draw 7s are critical in refilling your hand and fighting hand disruption decks like Suicide (without which you have little chance against their disruption heavy starts), or maintaining parity with control decks. Versus a non-counterspell deck, refilling both hands will nearly always be to your advantage. Finally, if you have a Solomoxen + a land draw with little else other than a tutor or intuition (or one of the draw-7s), that will be a hand you can keep rather than mulligan against a fast aggro deck, for instance.  SiCK_boy's choice of Necropotence is also a fine choice, but only if you are running rituals. The three downsides of Necro, though, are that you might need that life to survive a fast aggro deck's barrage on your life total, you cannot cast it if you don't have a ritual, or you cannot discard a Dragon from your hand into the graveyard anymore if you draw it. However, these points might be so minor as to never have to worry about them over the course of many tournaments.

B) Disruption: 9 (12)

3x FoW
3x Mana Leak
2x Defense Grid
1x Abeyance
(3x Cunning Wish - can fetch REB, Abeyance, or Misdirection)

The choice of disruption spells is metagame dependent, and can be altered accordingly. You can go with Duress (and Unmask, which I don't think is very strong), more Abeyances and Grids, or Chants. Your other option is to go for more SPEED by axing some disruption slots and going with 4x Dark Rituals and one additional Entomb. This will give you more turn 1-2 kill capability. You can also include more search via Impulse and Tainted Pact, Impulse being preferable if you decide to run FoW. If you do run the bare minimum disruption, it's still probably a good idea to run as many Abeyances as you can to stop creature kill spells or activated abilities such as those on Druid Lyrist or Aura Fracture (or Tormod's Crypt). For more speed, you can run Orim's Chants as SiCK_boy does.

Why do I choose the above disruption spells? My reasoning is that counterspells are good vs the field, and especially against Suicide (which can potentially tear certain Dragon builds apart with a good draw). This isn't true with Duress and Abeyance, and especially with Grids, but they do have their own advantages. The other reason I prefer counters over Duress is because of the squeeze principle that I mentioned in another thread: it's bad early in the game if you Duress your opponent when he has little mana on the table, and he happens to have two copies of a disruption spell. Duress doesn't force your opponent to tap his mana, so it's not as good in some scenarios in getting your combo through. Lastly, Duress doesn't stop that topdecked Tormod's Crypt or another problematic permanent. What Duress does give you is a 1 mana solution against a lone disruption spell, and of course the ability to see your opponent's hand.

I also have 2 Abeyances between the main deck and sideboard, and I feel these are the most effective tools to fighting ANY non-counterspell based hate/creature removal. They are absolutely key vs Tormod's Crypt, as that card WILL find its way into EVERY deck's SB if Dragon is a major tourney presence/threat.
  
Finally, Defense Grids are simply your best line of defense versus control decks with counterspells. An early Grid will give you the time to set up and go off comfortably, while forcing them to keep 3 mana open if they wish to FoW. I only use 2 usually as I wouldn't play Dragon in a control heavy field, but they are there in the event that I do face a control deck (few metagames don't have some control decks). The SB is heavily geared towards combatting heavy counterpell decks, while REBs double as B2B removal if you're forced to play the long game.

If my metagame had very little Suicide and mono-U or its hybrids, I would trim the Disruption to just 3 Abeyances and 1 Chant main deck, while using the rest of the slots to add 4 Dark Rituals and one Entomb as SiCK_boy has in his deck. SiCK_boy, if you happen to read this part, I would suggest also running this set-up as a comparison when you playtest.


C) Mana Base

The hardest part is determining what mana providing cards to run, and in what quantities. I choose not to run rituals, but they are certainly an option if I want more speed and less disruption. To support Intuition, I run 24 sources, which has worked so far. A few builds that I have seen drop down to 20-21, which I feel is a bit risky if your metagame has most people playing 5 strip/wastes, and/or if you see a lot of Null Rods or Powder Kegs. An undisrupted 3 mana is usually your minimum to win, if you don't have to rely on non-FoW disruption; 2 mana is the absolute bare minimum with this deck.


D) Sideboard:

For me, the following are absolutely untouchable slots:

1x Stroke
1x Rushing River
1x Abeyance
4x REB
2x Grid (or 4 depending on how many are in the main deck)


The rest is metagame dependent. Some options:

Misdirection/Arcane Denial - good to turn your Wish into counterspell power or to misdirect that Hymn/Sinkhole/Ancestral.

Mana Short - another option to Abeyance, by locking down opponent's mana on THEIR turn instead of locking them out
on yours with an Abeyance/Chant. This way, you can start counter wars with mono-U on their turn.

Frantic Seach - turns your Wish into card drawing or gives you another way to put a Gorger in the graveyard if you draw it.

Powder Keg - good versus Crypts while dealing with fast creatures. I prefer Pernicious Deed though, even if it's much harder to cast, as it handles enemy #1: Planar Void.

City of Solitude - an alternative to Grid - it's slower and more difficult to cast, but at least it can't be taken out by Powder Kegs and stops counters cold.

Verdant Force - turns the deck into reanimator. The force can single handedly wipe out mono-U, so it turns your deck into a 2-card combo. This is important vs counterspells, where you will probably be tutoring and Wishing for disruption rather than combo pieces. The other idea behind Force is to have a way to combat Planar Void in Suicide. As long as Suicide doesn't have Edict the moment the Force comes into play, you should win. Their only hope then would be to race you with Hyppies.


To conclude, I feel that this is the most effective Dragon build compared to the two and three card Dragon combo decks out there. It doesn't have the main drawbacks of either of those builds, and combines speed AND consistency. Here are the problems with both non-merged combo decks that are frquently highlighted by proponents of the OTHER approach:


2-card combo: slow, more reliable

- Speed is the main problem. The deck relies on the expensive Buried Alive, which usually costs a turn or two in the speed department compared to the three card combo.

- Intuitions are not effective. Because this deck relies on getting both Caravan and Worldgorger in the graveyard, you cannot use Intuition to double as a creature "burier".

- Bottleneck at the Buried Alive slot. If you cannot find this card in time or it's countered/Duressed, you might be in serious trouble. It's your only way of getting both of your creatures in the graveyard.


3-card combo: quicker, less reliable

- the #1 problem is...that it's a 3 (!!) card combo. No other top combo deck in type 1 relies on more than 2 cards. You WILL get your fair share of 1st/2nd turn kills, but you won't do it reliably unless you're an especially lucky person (and in my country, there is an expression that if you are unlucky in cards, you will be lucky in love, and vice versa...fortunately for me, I have terrible luck in cards ). Consider that if you face a control deck with the capability of playing at least one counterspell, you will need a whopping 4 cards to go off or hope that you will topdeck the right combo card in the aftermath. The same goes for aggressive decks that might hold one creature removal spell, which even includes Sligh (Bolt+Fireblast), some builds of Suicide (Edict), Stompy (if they play first turn Druid Lyrist), or white weenie (disenchant and StP). Having to find 4 cards to win can be a daunting task if you're on a 4-5 turn clock against more aggressive decks.

- the other problem is the same bottleneck as the 2-card combo (having only 4 Entombs) although more can be added in the form of Intuitions.

- the 3 card combo usually has less room for disruption, usually running 4-8 slots, although 4 seems to be common. This can be a big problem against control if you cannot go off or if they stop you within the first two to three turns.

- Since this deck relies on blue kill cards, it's disruptable by REBs. This means that in game 2, Sligh might force you to find four cards (including the Abeyance/Chant, IF they are used) to go off while they put you on a 4-5 turn clock.

My version merges both decks, which eliminates the weaknesses outlined above. It doesn't have the capability of winning as quickly as the 3-card combo, but that can easily be remedied by using Rituals and upping the Entomb count to 4 at the cost of disruption or some lands, if you're brave enough. However, it does win fairly consistently around turn 3, sometimes even with FoW/Leak back-up. This is faster on average than the 2-card combo, while being approximately the same as the 3-card combo (which will combo in 1-2 turns from time to time, while sometimes needing more time to find its pieces and go off past turn 3-4).


One thing to remember though, is that no matter what version of Dragon is played or how many sub-optimal cards are used, it can absolutely DESTROY the playing field and just win on turn 2 game after game. Whether it can do that consistently or against varying metagames is another matter.

[Reitz]

Great primer!
 


DicemanX 4 things I would do with your deck

1) add 1 or 2 searing touch in the maindeck or sideboard.  because of maindeck misdirecition mainly because I saw you didn't have "Whispers of the Muse"? I think this is a key to the deck because it gives you more chances to see the card you need.

2) You do not need maindeck deck DEFENSE GRID!!!!
Why would you need it in a combo deck that goes of in the first couple of turns that can orims chant ect. before it goes off.  "Whispers of the Muse" would be a much more effective card in that slot.

3) Sideboard "Trank Domain" you will need this card takes care of alot of the decks problems all at same time.

4) Also Timmy Eat World is not a good name for the deck it is too chessey for my taste.  I call the deck

 "WeinerSchnitzel.dec"

[Shock Wave]

Quote 1) add 1 or 2 searing touch in the maindeck or sideboard.  because of maindeck misdirecition mainly because I saw you didn't have "Whispers of the Muse"? I think this is a key to the deck because it gives you more chances to see the card you need.

I think you missed the section of the primer which demonstrates how pale Whispers is in comparison to Intuition (with respect to this build). If you fear Misdirection, how is Whispers any less effective than Searing Touch? Furthermore, what would you do with Searing Touch if you don't have WD in the graveyard?

Quote You do not need maindeck deck DEFENSE GRID!!!!

@Diceman: I am a strong advocate for your build, but I think Reitz makes a valid point here. I understand that the Grids are there for the control matchup, but what are the odds of you drawing 1 of your 2 grids? Even with tutor effects, you don't have a reliable amount of fetch cards to find it. I don't think you can consistently cast a turn 1-2 Grid with only 2 in the deck, and by the time Mono-U has islands on the board, your chances of resolving anything diminish immensely.

IMHO: Put 4 Grids in your sideboard and add a fourth FOW. You have 2 variable slots in your board, so you would not be excluding anything significant. BTW, how is your testing going with 61 cards? Perhaps you should trim back down to 60?  

[SiCK_Boy]

Reitz: There's really no need for 2 Searing Touch in the main deck. At most, 1 in the sideboard is enough. None of the key cards of the deck are Misdirectable, except for the Animate Dead, wich should almost never be misdirected, and the Stroke of Genius. Now, if Misdirection is rampant, you could fetch Searing Touch instead of Stroke for the kill, but Whispers of the Muse has nothing to do with it. Diceman's build use Aerial Caravan to search is deck, and so he doesn't need Whispers.

Tranquil domain isn't nearly as good as Rushing River or Capsize. Rarely will an opponent have more than 2 enchantments. With Capsize, you can wait to buy it back, or with River, you can clear 2 problem from the board. Those 2 cards are also superior because they get rid of Lyrist and other non-enchantment threats.

Also, as Diceman has made very clear throughout all his post, his most fearsome matchup is control. That's why he uses main deck Defense Grid. 2 is probably not enough to guarantee he'll draw them, but it's still enough, with all his tutoring power, that you'll see them in almost every 2 or 3 games, and after side, you can expect 1 every game (with some agressive mulligan strategy). Also, you can cast it on the second turn, not just the first. It remains a very strong card versus control, even if I still believe the true dangerous cards from blue are Blue Elemental Blast and Hydroblast.

What does weinerschnitzel means?

[dicemanX]

Quote Great primer!

Thanks, but this is still far from being a primer. It has a lot of missing information, which I might fill in at some point.

Quote 1) add 1 or 2 searing touch in the maindeck or sideboard.

If you really fear Misdirection, you can always put either Whispers of the Muse or an Entomb in the SB. This will get around the rare situation where you are going off (without the Caravan), and only have a Wish while they hold Misdirection. The Entomb by the way will help you get a Caravan in your graveyard and draw your entire deck.

BTW, Whispers (and Searing Touches) could potentially be poor choices because of the painlands in this deck - it might be difficult go off with a City of Brass or Underground River as the only sources of U mana, unless you get lucky and draw into another kill card. This is most significant against fast aggro decks that might reduce your life total so that you are unable to draw enough cards to find your win condition.

I WOULD actually add a Searing Touch in the SB, but only IF I ever start seeing Obstinate Familiars. They are a pretty decent hoser in Sligh decks, if Sligh players would ever bother to make room for them in their SBs.

Quote Diceman: I am a strong advocate for your build, but I think Reitz makes a valid point here. I understand that the Grids are there for the control matchup, but what are the odds of you drawing 1 of your 2 grids? Even with tutor effects, you don't have a reliable amount of fetch cards to find it.  I don't think you can consistently cast a turn 1-2 Grid with only 2 in the deck, and by the time Mono-U has islands on the board, your chances of resolving anything diminish immensely.

I suppose it would really come down to the metagame, and how many control decks I would expect among the aggro. In a very aggro metagame (like our Untouchables meta) the Grids would be taken out, probably in favour of a Second Abeyance or 4th FoW. This would also reduce the # of cards from 61 to 60. Actually, I would strongly consider going up to 61 by adding a 3rd Abeyance, just so I could fetch it with Intuition. The deck is so tight that it's almost impossible to remove anything. If I absolutely HAD to cut something, it would probably be an Animate Dead.

As far as a more control meta, even having only 2 Grids isn't so bad. I obviously cannot rely on them if I have 2, but I treat them as just another threat card that for all intents and purposes against mono-U says 2: win the game. If the Grids don't resolve if cast early, they've at least traded 1 for 1, or better yet 1 for 2 if FoWed, which is perfectly fine. Mono-U, outside of Forbiddian, has very few ways to generate card advantage, so it's possible to just exhaust their counters and topdeck into a win. (the card drawing in Forbiddian is not THAT fearsome in any case - who will tap out on turn 2-3 to cast an Ophidian, especially if they don't have FoW back-up?)


Nevertheless, my initial reasoning for maintaining maindeck Grids: you should slaughter non-counterspell decks, apart from Suicide, so it makes sense to gamble a little and include something exclusively for the control match-up. It can be SO crucial to win against counter decks first game, so that you can side in the full complement of control cards and remove most of the win conditions, opting for trying to draw the game instead in games 2 and 3.

[SpikeyMikey]

I think City of Brass a terrible card to run in this deck.  Under normal circumstances, I would never condone the usage of Tarnished Citadel in T2, let alone T1, where there are so many better options, but because your deck wins so quickly, the pain is negligible, damage doesn't matter unless you're dead, because you can win at any moment.  My mana base is as follows

4xUnderground Sea
4xUnderground River
4xGemstone Mine
4xTarnished Citadel
1xUndiscovered Paradise
1xMox Sapphire
1xMox Jet
1xBlack Lotus

I can see tainted pact being useful, but I've really not had much problem with finding all the combo pieces, because the deck contains so much redundancy.  Then again, I run 3 Bazaar of Baghdad, which is great in this deck.  One of the side effects of running so much redundancy is that you'll often draw 3 copies of one part of the combo, but not have another part.  Bazaar can turn any of those otherwise useless cards into Frantic Search.  Additionally, I've become rather confident about using Bazaar as a search engine to find Stroke when I go off, because I run 9 ways to find stroke, and trading every card in my hand to look at 3 cards, it's usually not a hard find.

I've also heard the suggestion before to drop Whispers in favor of going up to 4 Cunning Wish and 4 Intuition.  I would like to caution people against this, because while it sounds like a good idea, it's not.  Whispers is weaker than the wish or intuition before you go off, and either will get you to your win condition afterwords.  The problem is that drawing through your deck gives you the opportunity to find FoW's, because Whispers can't be Misdirected, and if your opponent is holding a Mis-D, having the counter for it so you don't end up stroking yourself out is a good idea.  Again, the deck wants to have gone off by turn 3, and Intuition doesn't go off till then, so both of them are sub-optimal before you start generating infinite mana.  Whispers more-so than Intuition or Cunning Wish, which are still necessary from time to time, but the lack of vulnerability to Misdirection is worth it.  I also have to contest with Meddling Mages from time to time(don't ask, you really don't want to know), and Mage Cunning Wish would absolutely wreck me if I lost the Whispers.

[dicemanX]

Quote I think City of Brass a terrible card to run in this deck.  Under normal circumstances, I would never condone the usage of Tarnished Citadel in T2, let alone T1, where there are so many better options, but because your deck wins so quickly, the pain is negligible, damage doesn't matter unless you're dead, because you can win at any moment.  My mana base is as follows

4xUnderground Sea
4xUnderground River
4xGemstone Mine
4xTarnished Citadel
1xUndiscovered Paradise
1xMox Sapphire
1xMox Jet
1xBlack Lotus

Note that this mana base is specific in supporting only certain types of disruption spells. It's not meant to support additional colors to run REBs and Abeyances. If you look at my mana base or SiCK_boy's, we have to run more W sources (and R sources, in my case) that won't cost 3 life when we use them.

Do note that Defense Grids do NOT stop Disenchants/creature removal; this is why Abeyances or Orim's Chants can be rather necessary, unless you face little creature removal in your metagame. Having FoW or Duress will not stop your opponent if he has multiple removal cards in his hand. It's worse against control decks like mono-U and Keeper, which will have a mix of removal and counterspells (mono-U will bring in BEBs for removal).

Quote I've also heard the suggestion before to drop Whispers in favor of going up to 4 Cunning Wish and 4 Intuition.  I would like to caution people against this, because while it sounds like a good idea, it's not.

In fact, it IS a good idea. For a number of reasons.

What do you intend to do with a Whispers if the lands you have in play are Citadels (or Cities of Brass) and Underground Rivers, and you want to go off? The pain lands do, after all, constitute 8/18 permanent mana sources that provide U mana in your specific case. You will certainly not be able to draw your entire deck - you would be lucky to actually even find your kill card, and that will depend on how much damage you have sustained vs an aggro deck for instance. This problem is compounded against decks that run 5 wastes/strip, which will target your non-pain lands. Bazaars will help a lot, but only if you manage to get one in play. After all, if you have only painlands for mana, you will need Bazaar, Whispers, Entomb, and Animate just to go off with a reasonable amount of success in finding your kill card. The odds are not good. Plus, most people don't play with Bazaars, so the argument I'm trying to make applies more to non-Bazaar versions.

The advantage of using Intuitions and Cunning Wishes is that you can go off with painlands, in addition to their other benefits. This is far more significant than the Misdirection issue. As I noted above, you can put a Whispers in the SB if you fear Misdirection, so that every Intuition or Cunning Wish can chain up to that Whispers. Problem solved. This will only work if you have 4 Wishes (so that you can Intuition for 3 to get your Whispers and still have one left over for the Stroke), or if you run Caravans and Entombs like I do in my deck - makes things a LOT easier.

Quote Again, the deck wants to have gone off by turn 3, and Intuition doesn't go off till then, so both of them are sub-optimal before you start generating infinite mana.

Ah, this line of reasoning has reared its ugly head again. If you are ready to go off by turn 3, then not being able to cast Intuition is irrelevant. Remember what Intuition replaces in this deck - Whispers. Unless you find yourself cantripping a Whispers early to draw some random card (highly unlikely - you don't want to be losing a combo piece for a random top-deck!), BOTH Intuition and Whispers will sit idly in your hand early. How does that make Intuition worse than Whispers?

Furthermore, Intuition works very well with full power (plus Mana Crypt). And, despite the redundancy, you will NOT get all 3 combo pieces early (or 4 cards if you need disruption as back-up) every game you play, as some people would make you believe. In fact, if you don't run Intuition, you no longer have that redundancy in the Entomb effect slot, and you have less tutoring power.

Quote Then again, I run 3 Bazaar of Baghdad, which is great in this deck.  One of the side effects of running so much redundancy is that you'll often draw 3 copies of one part of the combo, but not have another part.  Bazaar can turn any of those otherwise useless cards into Frantic Search.

Bazaars are a very interesting choice. They help put any Dragons you have drawn into the graveyard, and they can function as a limited search engine that has the power to dig through the deck once you start going off. A definite consideration for the Dragon deck. Of course, you have to weigh these benefits against the drawbacks: they cost you a land drop, and they might replace other beneficial cards like more disruption or more mana.

[Shock Wave]

Quote Nevertheless, my initial reasoning for maintaining maindeck Grids: you should slaughter non-counterspell decks, apart from Suicide, so it makes sense to gamble a little and include something exclusively for the control match-up. It can be SO crucial to win against counter decks first game, so that you can side in the full complement of control cards and remove most of the win conditions, opting for trying to draw the game instead in games 2 and 3.

I would like to propose 4 maindeck Grids. I would add 2 more, moving an Animate and Abeyance to the sideboard. There are obviously pros/cons to doing so, and I will outline them as far as I can see:

Pros:

- Control is your most feared opponent. Against Mono-U, your first turn Grid is absolutely huge. In Game 1, Mono-U has absolutely no way of thwarting you once WD is bouncing in and out of play. Post sideboarding, you can remove your win conditions, as you've previously stated, and side in the blue hosers. Even better, you could try the Verdant Force approach. Tech!
- You're going to roll aggro anyways, so it would hardly affect your odds of winning these matchups.
- You can still wish for Abeyance! The few aggro cards that can stop you (STP, Edict, etc) are stopped cold, so the drawback of the Grid being removed from play is negligible

Cons:

- That decklist is extremely tight. I can live with moving the Abeyance to the sideboard, but I'll honest by saying that I'm not sure how removing an Animate effect will affect the overall redundancy of the build.
- As we all know now, after the Animate/Dance goes to the graveyard and triggers the effect that would send the WD to the grave, your opponent can respond with nasty stuff. The point of concern here is that Defense Grid won't help you, as it has been removed at this point along with all other permenants under your control. I really don't believe this to be an issue except against a few decks that run counters AND instant speed removal (Keeper being one of the more prominent ones). Even so, should the Dragon get blasted, you get all of your permenants back. The protection of the Grid will allow you to set up again on your following turn.

I feel strongly about the inclusion of 4 Grids in the maindeck. The fact that aggro gets rocked so badly seems to warrant the idea of maindecking 4 hoser cards for the worst matchups. Comments anyone?

[dicemanX]

Shock Wave makes some good arguments here. I would like to add two more potential cons, more for the sake of completeness rather than believing that it would affect your matches to any great extent:

- Grids are affected by Powder Kegs, which mono-U does run. However, Kegs need two turns to take out a Grid, so it might not be much of a factor.

- Grids do not necessarily stop counters cold. You might not be out of the woods if they have three mana open and can potentially FoW. Having said that, they still do their job very effectively early to mid game.

Shock Wave is also right about Grids helping out against even non-counter decks - with a Grid, you will not lose your permanents if they have creature removal (and don't have enough mana to pay under the Grid).

The only factor that would make me wary of going with 4x Grid is the potential number of Suicide decks. Against them, you really do want to have a full complement of counterspells, all 7 animate effects, and even Abeyances (which can be played in response to an early ritual to great effect, if you go first and lay land + Mox). Otherwise, I think the suggestion has a lot of merit.

With respect to what to remove in favour of Grids #3 and #4, that is a hard decision to make. Removing that Abeyance is a tough call, since you will no longer be able to Tutor (3 ways) or Intuition (3 ways) for one (you can fetch Abeyance by Intuitioning for Abeyance + 2xWish). This might not be so crucial as your Grids will protect your permanents, but if you're relying on redundancy rather than Abeyance protection it would make sense to not take out that 7th Animate effect. So I would consider putting a counter on the chopping block - maybe a FoW. If the Abeyance stays, then I would remove FoW and Animate Dead. I would wager a guess though that most metagames run very little in the way of creature removal that would affect an Animated Dragon - most Suicide builds run no Edicts, Sligh has no removal apart from Bolt + Fireblast (which doesn't affect you if you are going off with Dance of the Dead), while no top decks run Disenchant/StP apart from Keeper decks in addition to their Edict. And even then, its only 2-3 cards + 3 Tutors.

[Shock Wave]

Quote - Grids are affected by Powder Kegs, which mono-U does run. However, Kegs need two turns to take out a Grid, so it might not be much of a factor.

- Grids do not necessarily stop counters cold. You might not be out of the woods if they have three mana open and can potentially FoW. Having said that, they still do their job very effectively early to mid game.

These two points are still worth considering. You're never completely out of the woods with Grid, but if it hits against control, the odds of you winning the game swing heavily in your favour. Powder Keg puts you on a 2 turn clock, but that usually is enough time to setup.

Quote The only factor that would make me wary of going with 4x Grid is the potential number of Suicide decks. Against them, you really do want to have a full complement of counterspells, all 7 animate effects, and even Abeyances

I totally agree with respect to your analysis on the suicide matchup. However, even with 4 dead cards, it's going to be a rough ride for Sui. They still will have to do something nasty on turns 1 and 2 to have a chance, and even then the win would be far away. Remember, you are running Wheel and Twister, both of which would swing the match heavily in your favour. Now let's assume Sui takes game 1. Out go the Grids, in come Abeyance and counters. If you lose again, it was just not meant to be. We have to keep in mind that Sui can do some terribly disruptive things on turn 1, and in such situations most decks cannot recover.

In any case, I think the suicide matchup would still be in your favour. With your current build it would definitely fare better, but the amount you suffer against Sui seems well worth the advantage you gain against Control.

I can't really comment further on what to take out. It would require playtesting. If you are planning on testing out some ideas, let me know what your substitutions will be and I will try something different. Here are some of the options I am considering:

+ 2 Grid, -Abeyance(sb), -Animate(s)
+ 2 Grid, + Mana Leak, - 3 FOW
+ 2 Grid, + 4 Duress, - 3 FOW, - 3 Mana Leak

I'll post the results of my testing sometime soon.

[dicemanX]

Quote I totally agree with respect to your analysis on the suicide matchup. However, even with 4 dead cards, it's going to be a rough ride for Sui.

I'm starting to think that Suicide should always be left out of the equation with my build. No matter what I test, apart from SB in CoP:Black, nothing makes a significant impact. Either their disruption gets me, or I crush them. It's over before we even get a chance to draw any significant amount of cards. I'll have times where I rattle off many wins in a row and feel completely untouchable, and other times where I just fold like a cheap tent, especially against their land destruction. I'm starting to think that the only thing that might really improve this match up is just adding more mana, particularly Dark Rituals. This would make the deck blazingly fast, especially if I add a fourth Buried Alive and Entomb...or alternately, more lands could be added to add to the power of the CoP. Otherwise, I would just ignore Suicide.

Quote I can't really comment further on what to take out. It would require playtesting. If you are planning on testing out some ideas, let me know what your substitutions will be and I will try something different. Here are some of the options I am considering:

+ 2 Grid, -Abeyance(sb), -Animate(s)
+ 2 Grid, + Mana Leak, - 3 FOW
+ 2 Grid, + 4 Duress, - 3 FOW, - 3 Mana Leak

I'll post the results of my testing sometime soon.

Sounds good. The last option looks interesting, although I still feel that your second option is better (keeping Leaks over Duress). It's really hard to evaluate just how useful FoWs are, so maybe they aren't as necessary as I first imagined. I WOULD retain FoWs, however, if the number of permanent-based hate increased in the local metagame, like Crypts and Planar Voids, or if other combo decks were present in significant numbers.

As far as testing out further ideas, I am still quite busy these days, but I'll have time to do some testing in about two weeks time. I would give a serious look at Mana Short as mainly a SB option, but perhaps main deck as well. I'm starting to think that maybe it's better to radically rethink the mana base and dump non-U or B colors. Mana Shorts might be very decent in place of Abeyances, although that would require bringing in Kegs to deal with Crypts and Elvist Lyrists. This would leave Seal of Cleansing and Aura Fracture as potential problematic cards, but they are rarely seen. The REBs, as strong as they are, could make room for Duress instead. The problem is that losing the Wheel of Fortune might be critical, especially since you won't be able to get a draw-7 with an Intuition without having to settle for a Demonic Tutor (when Intuitioning for all 3 tutors). Also, Wheel is a good way to dump drawn Dragons into the graveyard...
hmm, perhaps it's not such a hot idea after all, but it's useful to examine all possible configurations anyways.

[SiCK_Boy]

Well, another month went by, and another tournament where I once again got crushed (ended up 19th out of 50some people, with a 3-3 record).

Sadly, I didn't face a single W/G deck during those 6 rounds, so I couldn't really know if the use of Orim's Chant was really changing this matchup in autowin for me. In fact, I finally faced up the dreaded control matchup. I faced 5 blue opponents (5 colors control, U/W, U/W/R), and the other one was a mono black land destruction packing Rancid Earth, and sideboarding into a mono black discard deck.

The first thing I learned was that Planar Void is game. By the time you're able to Wish for a disenchant or bounce, your opponent will have enough counterspells to protect it.

The other one I realized was that the low land count of the deck makes it rought to mulligan. And this is even harder if you happen to have a Dragon in your starting hand, particularly when going first. When you take a mulligan, your chances of getting a 1 land hand are great. Also, the deck is very vulnerable to Wastelands.

Finally, the last problem is the lack of card drawing when facing blue opponents. Sure, you can't pack too much of it in the main deck, but often, when I have multiple Wish in hand, all I can go for is the lone Whispers of the Muse in the side.

As for the good news, this tournament confirmed that Orim's Chant/Abeyance are a great form of disruption. I'm not sure Defense Grid are needed that much. They're better than I said at first, but still not essential main deck quality.

So, how do we take care of those problems:

The card to beat Planar Void is Necromancy. So in goes 4 Necromancy in the sideboard. I'll switch them for 2 Animate Dead and 2 Dance of the Dead when expecting Void.

Next, I'll add 2 Polluted Delta (the new fetch land from Onslaught). This ain't much of a change in the land base, but I'll see. It always starts by a few cards. If this ain't enough, I'll add another land (maybe Tarnished Citadel) to make the deck total to 61 cards.

Another addition will be Wheel of Fortune. This will help with card drawing and will make keeping a hand with Dragon easier because you can discard it via the Wheel.

For those 3 cards, I'll remove Time Walk and Necropotence, as well as a Whispers of the Muse. Necropotence is strong, but generally not much if not combined with Dark Ritual. Time Walk was always just used as a cantrip.

Also, the Abeyance will go main deck instead of the 4 Orim's Chant. This will slow the deck, but make it more consistent. Abeyance is just better in more situation, and you can always cycle it when in need of a particular card.

Finally, for the side, I'll remove most of the useless cards (Terror, Swords to Plowshares, 3 Orim's Chant, Blue Elemental Blast, Interdict, Counterspell). This will leave only 1 Chant in side (for Wish), and leave place for the 4 Necromancy as well as Intuition, Lim-Dul's Vault and 2 Defense Grid. Those cards should all be more usefull than what was there before. Lim-Dul's Vault will be better that Whispers for card drawing (even if it doesn't replace itself), Intuition can be used to put a Dragon in the graveyard and the Grids could come in versus control decks (instead of 1 Tainted Pact and 1 Abeyance).

With those changes, the decklist (for November Type 1) will look like this:

2 x Worldgorger Dragon
4 x Gemstone Mine
4 x Underground Sea
3 x Underground River
3 x Undiscovered Paradise
1 x City of Brass
1 x Forsaken City
1 x Black Lotus
1 x Mox Emerald
1 x Mox Jet
1 x Mox Pearl
1 x Mox Ruby
1 x Mox Sapphire
4 x Tainted Pact
4 x Entomb
4 x Dance of the Dead
3 x Animate Dead
1 x Ancestral Recall
1 x Demonic Tutor
1 x Vampiric Tutor
1 x Demonic Consultation
4 x Abeyance
4 x Dark Ritual
4 x Cunning Wish
2 x Whispers of the Muse
2 x Polluted Delta
1 x Wheel of Fortune

1 x Stroke of Genius
1 x Searing Touch
1 x Orim's Chant
1 x Disenchant
1 x Compost
1 x Whispers of the Muse
1 x Capsize
4 x Necromancy
1 x Intuition
1 x Lim-Dul's Vault
2 x Defense Grid

I'm still not willing to go for the Buried Alive/Caravan version. Even if I didn't get the expected results in the last tourney, it showed good elements. I started off with a 3-1 record before getting crushed by a Dryad deck that I really expected to beat easily (I knew the guy, he had told me he didn't play Tormod's Crypt, and I knew he add no power cards... he crushed me 1st game, drawing 6 cards off Ancestral Recall and Regrowth... he had borrowed the Recall from someone... and 2nd game, I didn't side in Abeyance, and he played Waterfront Bouncer). Last round wasn't really meaninfull as I was already defeated in my mind (I played against Shockwave, and he totally owned me... don't think I'd have much chances even with a different mindset).

If you have any comments about the points I made, go on and make your suggestions.

[Matt The Great]

Waterfront Bouncer is mad savage. What were the Terrors for? I thought all creatures in Type One were black or artifacts.

[dicemanX]

SiCK_boy, you should consider 2xVerdants OR 4x Pernicious Deed in the SB instead of 4xNecromancy. I'd make an auto switch into 4 Deeds against any non-counterspell deck to wipe out all permanents that could screw you over game 2 (along their creatures all in one go). This will conveniently handle Planar Void as well, along with any of Suicide's creatures.

I'd also substitute full power for rituals. Forget about dreaming of 1-2 turn kills if you're getting mana screwed because of wasteland or from having to mulligan.

Finally, I still think that you will get completely owned every time against counter-based control while running a 3 card combo, but that's your choice. However, perhaps you could consider running Verdants in the side vs mono-U and mono-B, because they turn your deck into a two card combo instead.
Verdant is game vs mono-U (barring a lucky Capsize) and mono-B if they can't Edict right away (or if they run Diabolic Edicts).

BTW, I think Shock Wave's deck is the worst match-up for Dragon, but I will say that I did beat him once and draw another time all on the strength of my main-deck Grids.