Enchantress Onslaught changes

[cooberp]

ZoneSeek--thanks for the comprehensive and well-thought-out post.

My sideboard is constantly changing.  I do think that you need 2 Ministrations to feel comfortable against Sligh--they've probably got 60% against you game one, and they usually don't expect Ministers so it can really catch them with their pants down in one of the two post-SB games.  Then if they play around it, it buys you the time you need to stabilize with Worship.  Without Ministers, it's still favorable after boarding, but probably only in the same 60% range--not enough if you ask me.

In a nonbasic hate-heavy metagame, I'd run a SB that included a basic Plains, Abolish, Carpet, Aura Fracture, and Celestial Dawn.  THAT, I believe, would be sufficient to survive a swarm of Blood Moons and B2B.  Those cards would have to take the Ministration spots, IMO.

On an unrelated note: Karmic Justice has gotten MUCH better against Keeper now that Keeper is running 1 Allay 1 Fracture instead of 2 Fracture.  Remember, casting Allay with buyback is expensive and you have 19 enchantments.  Do remember that Allay is dead if you have a Grove out, because they have to target the Grove first, and when you sac it in response Allay fizzles.

I could not play the deck without a MD CoS, but would only run MD Choke in a control heavy meta.  City isn't JUST a control hoser; it has the side benefit of LETTING YOU DO WHATEVER YOU WANT.  This is priceless in Enchantress.  Choke wont stop artifact mana or Forces of Will.
However, the SB is already heavily slanted towards anti-aggro measures; having 4 blue hosers post SB is really essential.

Yes, perhaps a move to 3 Cities might be good, although if you'll excuse the pun it *pains* me to do so as I am a devoted 4-City kind of guy.  I will, however, test it and see how it goes.

[ZoneSeek]

Thanks cooberp - it's quite an honor to hear a compliment from the father of this incredibly fun and powerful deck. Nice pun  And I feel the same way. Even against Aggro I always find Cities to be wonderful because they are unbelievably consistant, and are incredibly powerful when life total doesn't matter (read - Worship). You can't get more consistant than providing all 3 (4) colors whenever you want. If I can find another Windswept Heath (it took me forever to find 3!) I will test the opposite 4/3 balance as well.

Good points about the City of Solitude and Choke. You know this deck alot better than I. Back to the sideboard issue, one of Enchantress' greatest strength is it's flexibility, thus the power of the sideboard. We have access to three colors with very powerful enchantments (I think the best colors for enchantments) and have very good search / draw capabilities to find our answers.

The whole sideboard is incredibly flexible. I think the Enchantress sideboard has a few staples but the rest is up to you:

1 Karmic Justice - an incredible enchantment that would be worthy of the maindeck but it has been squeezed out. You no longer fear Disk, Cleansing Meditation, or any other removal (outside of Fracture) while this is in play.

2-4 Anti-Aggro Measures - in this case 2 Swords and 2 Kegs I feel are best. Swords is the best single creature eliminiation spell ever printed, and Kegs are insanely good for weenie armies.

2-4 Anti-Control Measures - Chokes and Cities here.

The rest is filled in with more Anti-Aggro, more Anti-Control, mana fixers (Carpet and Dawn), and other general utility. There is a large amount of enchanments I have looked into as being possible sideboard but I don't want to get too off-topic as this topic is still supposed to focus on the changes made in Onslaught but if anyone is interested you can PM me and I we can talk.

[Amosw99]

I've been playing alot, and i really have never found the 1 MD Enchantress's Presence I have to be that great. Sure it has helped me, but I never seem to tutor for it as there is usually a hoser or a better card advantage card to search for (sylvan, or if I have sylvan Words of Waste or Pursiut of Knowledge, or if I need recursion, Holistic Wisdom).
Is anyone else having similar experiences? I mean, the only time I can say it won me a game i otherwise would have lost is when I was able to replenish it, cantrip a sylvan in my hand to draw the Aura of Silence I needed to stop the disk that was in play tapped.
It seems that this could easily be a MD Karmic Justice which is good in my meta or another weapon vs. control.
What do you guys think? I want to cut mine. How has it been working out for all of you?

Amos

PS: I'm going to college, from the prespective of looking for a good place to play type 1, in your opinion, what's better, NYC or Boston? PM me, Amos

[cooberp]

I don't tutor for Presence; I just draw it, cast it, and draw cards.  It's been really fantastic for me; I want to run two but just don't have the room.  I can't imagine why you wouldn't want an enchantment Enchantress.  It cantrips and recurs and is protected by Grove and is a must counter threat...I go to 2 after boarding vs. control.

[Rebel428]

Like cooberp said, you aren't supposed to tutor for Presence.  It acts sort of like a fifth Enchantress.  The deck wants to run more than four Argothian Enchantresses, but obviously can't.  Presence is the next best thing.

[cooberp]

That's not entirely accurate.  It is a fifth Enchantress, but you'd rather have 4 AE 1 Presence than 5 AE--it ups the enchantment count.  If it weren't for the necessity of Worship I would probably run 3 AE 3 Presence, in which case the mana curve would be 4 12 11 8.

[ZoneSeek]

I have been testing the 4 Heath / 3 City mana base and I must say it is a little different. The deck seems to have a quite different flow and I have found the 4th Heath to sometimes be too much in the lategame; it's awkward Heathing when I'm Worshipped down to 1 or if by some chance there are no duals left in the deck. The first case happens more often than you would imagine, but thankfully Heathing isn't that great of a concern because at that point the game is won and I have often drawn more normal lands from having played many Enchantments.

On the other hand, Heaths are golden in the early game, providing yet more shuffles under a Sylvan, and having the 4th assures you will get 2nd turn mana more consistantly by providing that crucial first turn Wasteland shield. If there is any lesson to be learned by Enchantress, it's that the only part of the game that matters is the early game. If you've made it to the lategame then you've got a good chance of winning.

So to summarise, so far there have been reasonably clear advantages and disadvantages of using either of the 3/4 setups. For now, I'm sticking with City of Brass but while testing I am still leaving the slot open, using a clearly marked card and choosing at play time which would be situationally better. I should have more solid results soon.

Oh, and as a side note, for those of you whom haven't realised it yet, Enchantress has been given a new win condition in Words of Waste; we can skip our draws every turn and force our opponent to draw their deck. This makes being Capped not 100% fatal (Taking both Mesas and the Pursuit no longer auto-wins) and shows that the card is more versatile than you may have intially thought.

[Amosw99]

I have switched to a 3 Heath 3 City mana base and I really like it. It has proven very consistent and helpful to sylvan's. I also experienced the 'not being able to sac because of worship' thing and it is not fun, but it's not a big enough concern to change anything. Anyway, my mana base:

3 City of Brass
3 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Dust Bowl
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Serra's Sanctum
7 Solomox
Total=27

It seems to be really consistent, and the dust bowl is another terrific uncounterable threat vs. control. I love the deck thinning that the Heath's provide, especially under sylvan. Is this about what other people are running? How is the 4 Heath mana base better?
Amos

[ZoneSeek]

My current mana base is

4 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Tundra

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

3 Windswept Heath
3 City of Brass
1 Heath or City (this is what i'm testing)

1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Library of Alexandria

1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland

Total: 27.

Note that I have a Tundra that you don't, I'm not playing the Ruby, and I'm not playing Dust Bowl. I have thought long and hard as to why I'm not playing it, and finally reasoned out. One, it's too mana intensive. Enchantress is very reliant on having good sources of mana out; I just don't see myself Bowling much. Also, with my current build, I already have the ability to Bowl when needed; each land I draw can be turned into a Strip or Waste by Holistic Wisdom. The mechanics are very similar actually; Holistic Wisdom requires 2 mana, missing a land drop, and removing a land in your hand from the game, where Dust Bowl requires 3 mana, no missed land drop, but you have to sacrifice one in play, so you still essentially keep that many lands.

I have not actually tested Dust Bowl so I may be out of my league. If it works for you, great! I just prefer to risk it not just being an expensive wasteland. In the past I have used my Holistic Wisdom as a Dust Bowl, but only usually to keep decks from getting and keeping certain colors. It works well, but I will leave it as an option for Holistic Wisdom to pick up.

[cooberp]

ZoneSeek--That mana base is exactly what I run; it's nice to see people playing optimal versions!   I do think Heath no. 4 is better than City no. 4.  Once you have Worship, you have all the time in the world to get Overgrown Estate if you really need to Heath.  The fourth Heath is also the fifth basic Plains against B2B/Bloodmoon.  Until I get a Lotus, I am running 1 Tundra 1 Plains maindeck and *loving* it with fetchlands.
Fetchlands are amazing, and Cities hurt.  
On an unrelated mana note, I can't remember the last time I wasn't able to cast Ancestral Recall the turn I drew it.  The deck can DEFINITELY support an Arcane Laboratory in the sideboard if combo is prevalent, although one slot isn't going to make much of a difference.
On another unrelated note, Choke is SO much better now that Keeper is running fetchlands, as is Carpet of Flowers.  If you see a lot of control in your metagame, you should DEFINITELY run a maindeck Choke.  It's good for the mana curve too.
ZoneSeek, you are also right that HW is your Dust Bowl.
Is Compost a good sideboard against Suicide?  It's AMAZING when it lands, but it has to hit before the discard, which means that running one is kind of pointless since you don't tutor for it.  It has to be in your opening hand, preferably with a Mox so they don't Duress it.

My sideboard is ever in flux.  The staples are:

2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Powder Keg
2 Choke
1 City of Solitude
1 Aura Fracture
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Karmic Justice
1 Celestial Dawn

The other 5 are metagame-specific combinations of:
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Powder Keg
1 Aura Fracture
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Abolish
1-2 Compost
1-2 Samite Ministration
1 Plains

[Radjammin]

This strand goes on forever, But I really can't ask big daddy Z to close it as people still are bringing up good points about Enchantress.

I don't have an ancestral so I run a 3 color that has been treating me right.

I have found that the fetch lands do alot less damage to me then cites, help vs wastelands, and make my draws better.  And if Peregon Keeper can run Brainstorm then I am sure I am allowed to run the better Sylvan-fetch combo.

The sylvan fetch is the real reason I uped the number from 2 to 3 to 4.  I just found I always loved drawing these things when I had sylvan out.  I also started to really hate that I couldn't mess with peoples land and this style allows for 4 land kill lands.

I am also a bad player and run both aura of silence and fastbond in my deck.  I love it when I have Worship enchantress out and I can explod threw my deck till I get the Words of waste lock out, or start Destroying all their land using Stripmine/Holisitic Wisdom/fastbond/randomlands. ok maybe just a large portion

I wish there was an easy way to splash a mox killer in this deck but aura helps out.


        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Library of Alexandria
        1 Serra's Sanctum
        1 Strip Mine
        3 Wasteland
        4 Scrubland
        4 Bayou
        4 Savannah
        4 Windswept Heath

[FeverDog]

Radj, i also have found fetch-lands to be great in my testing, however i still like to run 1-2 Cities for added consitency. I really suggest keeping at least one City in the deck, i prefer 2 but its up to you, it has proved to be worth it in my testing.

[cooberp]

I'm still on three Cities.  I'd rather have another 3-color land than a third Scrubland or Bayou.

[ZoneSeek]

I did a large amount of testing today with some friends and have finally decided that Heath #4 wins out over the City of Brass. The Worship issue never came up and the extra shuffle was very nice. The card I was using to represent the questionable slot was marked and in every situation it was better that it was a Heath. Still, I don't see myself running any less that 3 City of Brass as they are very nice, consistant mana producers.

All in all I am very impressed with the newest changes and additions; the mana base is quite solid and I really don't see myself cutting down to 60 cards. I play the exact deck you do cooberp, and have tested alternatives with less success. Mayhaps we are cursed to ever be at 61 ... oh well. Regardless, the four big latest additions have been very very nice.

Words of Waste is simply an amazing card. I tutored for it quite a few times while testing tonight and it is just unbelieveable against control matchups. I have never had to use it as a win condition but I'm sure I will eventually.

Holistic Wisdom has finally come onto it's own. The possibilites with this card are just intense. The sorcery switching is loads of fun; being able to recur Balance and Demonic is very nice. I oft pitch numerous dead enchantments for threats in wrong matchups game 1 and enjoy the solid recursion it offers post-board.

Story Circle is another solid threat vs. control that also hoses many aggro decks. Resolving this vs. Suicide is such a great feeling. Although I have not yet had a situation where I have tutored for it, the fact that it is in the deck and can simply be drawn is still reason enough for it to be played. Very strong.

And last but not least, what hasn't been said about the Heaths? More Sylvan shuffles means more power. I have to fully agree with cooberp; Enchantress has Sylvan on the table 99% of the games it plays. With the addition of the Heaths, we are shuffling more and Sylvaning even deeper. The 4 land, coupled with the Sterling Groves and the ability to recur and repeat with Replenishes and Holistic Wisdom means we are digging for answers quickly and efficiently.  

On the subject of Arcane Lab, I will likely keep one in my binder and board it at the Type 1 Championchips at Origins this summer. I anticipate a large combo presence and I'd like to think that I at least have a -remote- chance of winning.

[Radjammin]

After also playing, but not as much as Enchantress is a boring deck to play online, and alot more fun in person I would like to make a recomindation.

Is the Story Circle really worth it main deck?  As it is yet another dead card vs TnT as is The Abyss and Moat to some extent and Vs Combo don't the Fetch lands make Aggro a better matchup and make it not worth it.  I think the only time Agrro is hard to beat is if they attack my lands.  The Fetch Make it even harder to effectly waste lands, thus inproving the matchup.

For this deck, why not just let Pariah do it's job.

What are your guys take on it?  I think it is a matter of time untill you guys realize to how much better the fetchland is over City of Brass in this deck. Maybe it's just because I don't play blue and wouldn't have to use my first fetchland to go get the tundra that my fetchlands are more consistant.


Also the inclusion of Aura makes the seal do more then look pretty when it is replenished.

Where words of waste is great vs control and definatly deserves a slot main deck, don't forget to side it out vs aggro.

[cooberp]

We are running four fetchlands, Radjammin.  The difference is that you are running Bayous and Scrublands where we have Cities of Brass.  As a result, your deck has fewer green and white sources than ours does, which is bad for a deck that is heavily dependent on green and white mana.
Story Circle was added because Enchantress has a nasty habit of "winning" a game and then losing to a suicide Morphling.  Mesa is the obvious answer, but what always happens is that you pay 2WW a turn to hold off the Morphling and all it takes is a spot removal card or a Wasteland and you're dead.  Circle is an easy answer to Morphlings and as such, control will almost certainly counter it if they don't think they can remove it.  It has the added benefit of being excellent against Suicide Black and buying you lots of time against Sligh.  The only aggro deck it doesn't help against is TnT, and Enchantress's matchup there is pretty strong anyways.  ZoneSeek, you'll tutor for it then next time you are staring down a Morphling when you've Sylvanned to low life.
You'll be cursing that Aura of Silence when you're facing a first turn Survival backed up by Wastelands or other such nastiness, and it doesn't do more than slow down a deck like TnT.
Who said we forgot to side out WoW against aggro?

[ZoneSeek]

edit - Simul-post response

I figured that I would tutor for it in that situation. I was simply saying I have not done so quite yet. I've -drawn- it in that situation, just never had to tutor. Anyway, there's no point to arguing over tutoring a spell.

After reading cooberp's post and looking back, why don't you play City of Brass radjamman?

edit - regular post:

I've rather enjoyed Story Circle. Like I said in my last post, it's another big threat vs. Control so long as you don't have City of Solitude because it nullifies Morphlings in one fell swoop. It's great vs. Suicide and decent vs. Sligh. If you feel it isn't working for you, feel free to cut it or if you're already not playing it, just continue to do so. Granted it's not a card I regularly tutor for, but not all enchantments in the decks are made to be tutored. They are simply there as spells to be drawn and cast.

After yesterday's long test session I definitely have to say that 4 Fetches are the way to go. They have been very consistant, and usually when I need to fetch Tundra I am either in topdeck mode with my opponent or ahead of the game. The Tundra is very useful and while playing the Ancestral I don't think I will cut it. Plus, it gives us the ability to sideboard one blue enchantment or spell as hate.

Which brings me to my next point.. We've already discussed Arcane Laboratory as a possible sideboard Enchantment we can board vs. combo. Are there any other blue Enchantments or other spells that would benefit us?

[cooberp]

I have two separate and slightly contradictory responses to make.

1. I have been playing tons of Magic recently, and I simply can't remember the last time I wasn't able to cast Ancestral Recall when I either drew it or had the ability to tutor for it.  I can barely believe myself how consistently Enchantress is able to cast it, and it has indeed won me an obscene number of games.  I seem to have sticky fingers to it--I draw it *way* more than once every ten games--but I've never had any trouble whatsoever.  Anyone who isn't running it is making a big mistake.

2. Just because You Can Always Cast Ancestral Recall doesn't mean that you should make Enchantress a four color deck.  Casting One blue spell Once is one thing, adding another splash color will really strain the mana and hurt you.  Against combo, where they're not really going to disrupt your mana, it's OK to bring in ONE more card.  But this is a 3-color deck running Ancestral, and it runs a 3-color mana base.  You can't run a four-color deck without a single primary color (like Keeper), and this deck has two primary colors and a very important tertiary one.

[ZoneSeek]

Fair enough, and good points. You're right, I don't think there's been a single game where I haven't been able to cast it when I've had it in hand. Well, if we break it down, not only are we Sylvaning alot more often and deeper, but we have 4 Fetches, 3 Cities, a mox, and a lotus (And possibly Carpet of Flowers if it's played) - which is a total of 9 possible sources to cast Ancestral. And yes, resolving Ancestral wins games, period.

I'm waiting for one moment in a tournament where I go Tundra - Ancestral - go and my opponent thinks I'm playing Keeper.

Hmm, on second thought, you got me on the splash. I have nightmares (not really) managing a three color mana base and bringing in an outside color against a decktype with mana disruption (Control or Aggro) would be foolish. Oh well, it was just a simple idea. I do think that Arcane Lab may still be possible. I will have to give it a shot.

[cooberp]

I have had a habit of dismissing and/or rejecting cards out of hand that have wound up being awesome in Enchantress.  At various times in the deck's evolution I have completely ruled out cards that have become mainstays such as Ancestral Recall, Holistic Wisdom, and Story Circle.
I think I may have done the same with Pernicious Deed.  I have always said that it just doesn't work because it kills your own Enchantresses and Sylvans, and you need Enchantresses for Worship.
Then again, I do run Balance, which can also kill Enchantresses.  In addition, I do have four Replenishes which can bring back my own enchantments.  And I would like to have a searchable sweeper.
I am going to test this.  Does anyone have thoughts one way or the other?

[ZoneSeek]

cooberp, I recall one tournament in which I had to hastily assemble a sideboard. Guess which enchantment I threw in? Guess which enchantment won me alot of games? I dared not to speak of it in the past for fear of udder rejection and flame, but I am more than willing to test out Pernicious Deed as it is a very good card. I often operate under the philosophy: "If a card wrecks your opponent 100%, but kills you 50%, do you play it?" My usual answer is yes. Pernicious Deed falls under this category. I think we should add it to our decks and try them out. We need to find out where, and if it is sideboard or mainboard worthy. As always, the big issues are:

1. Pernicious Deed is good, yes, but is it BETTER than what we already have? Our deck doesn't have a distinct slot for a mass sweeper. Obviously this would work well if no one answer will help you, but you just need to reset the board.

2. What do we have to lose in the event of a deed going off? This may just become a nice powder keg, and we have a nice amount of 1 and 2 CC enchantments to lose. On the other hand, our stronger enchantments may just survive.

As counters to each problem, Pernicious Deed can work as a Wrath of God, Tranquility, or Shatterstorm, with the keglike effect. This may be stating the obvious, but let me make my point clear. It's a very versatile card that I see will only help improve matchups. Many, many games have I finished with 2 or 3 Replenishes in hand or in the library, unused. This gives us another target for the Replenishes, to help thicken their stronghold in our arsenal of answers and counters.

As for the second point, in my opinion, Enchantress has needed an enchantment keg, and unfortunately we have overlooked this one. Remember that the ONLY THING we lose when we "keg" (deed) for 1 (probably the most common) is moxen. We play precisely zero 1cc and 0cc creatures and enchantments, so this will help us immensly. At 2cc, we lose our most important card drawing and searching spells. Sterling Grove, Sylvan Library, and Argothian Enchantress are all 2cc. But, look at it this way. In my opinion, deeds will either go off for 1, for a keg like effect, or >3, for a global sweep. In the case of a global sweep, 3cc or higher, we're likely in a position to Replenish, so all that is lost are moxen and Enchantresses.

Do also note that this gives us a nice way to kill opposing Morphlings, SO LONG AS you can force a Replenish through.

So, to summarize, I'm all for testing Deed out. I think it may be a nice addition.

As a side note, should we open a new topic for this?

[cooberp]

Yeah, probably.  This is mad long.