Enchantress Onslaught changes

[cooberp]

Onslaught offers Enchantress one obvious card to include and a few tempting options as well.

The big one is:

Enchantress's Presence
2G Enchantment
Whenever you play an enchantment spell, draw a card.

The deck has ALWAYS wanted two more Enchantresses.  Whoever would have thought they would be reasonably costed and on flavor with the whole deck--searchable, protectable, recurrable.  The deck's threat density increases 30-40% with these, and the number of mulligans should decrease substantially.  I am pretty sure that two is the right number.

The other tempting enchantment is:

Words of Waste
2B Enchantment
1: The next time you would draw a card, all opponents must discard a card from their hands instead.

The deck has always wanted an enchantment Disrupting Scepter effect.  Obviously, Scepter is card advantage, and this is card disadvantage (it costs itself and is then parity).  But it has tremendous synergy with a number of effects in the deck.  The most obvious, of course, is Sylvan Library, which is now a 3-of and is always on the table.  Double Sceptering your opponent for 2 mana each turn is pretty savage.  But now that the deck has six Enchantresses, it is drawing a ton more cards.  Words of Waste lets you turn any of those draws into a discard effect--card parity, but incredibly powerful, because since the Enchantress effects stay on the board, you can play like Suicide and empty your opponent's hand before drawing 20 cards.  In addition, you can KEEP it empty like a Hypnotic Specter.
I'm not 100% convinced; I'll have to test it.  But I think it could be incredibly good.

Running more Enchantresses means you need more enchantments--the old total of I think just 17 isn't going to cut it.  We're knocking off the metagame slot for Presence no. 1, Regrowth for Presence no. 2, and possibly Mind Twist for Words of Waste.  WoW obviously isn't nearly as broken as Twist, but Twist was a random one-of that was only really good if you had a lot of mana (no Mana Drain).  WoW is PERFECTLY on flavor and in synergy for the deck.  This also brings the total # of enchantments to a robust 19 (Academy only runs 18 artifacts).

Finally, there are fetchlands.  I think Windswept Heath will be an excellent color fixer as it can get the appropriate dual for a situation--Savannah, Bayou, or Scrubland depending on what I need.  It obviously thins the deck and provides shuffles for Sylvan.  I'm pretty sure they're strictly superior to Brushlands.  My guess is that three is the right number.  I can't decide whether I should run a blue dual land in the UP slot to get with Heath if I need to cast Ancestral or not.

Here's the preliminary untested version.  I'll post updates.

//NAME: Enchantress
// Mana (27)
        4 City of Brass
        4 Savannah
        3 Windswept Heath
        3 Scrubland/2 Scrubland and 1 Tundra
        2 Bayou
        2 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Serra's Sanctum
        1 Library of Alexandria
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Black Lotus
// Draw (11)
        4 Argothian Enchantress
        3 Sylvan Library
        2 Enchantress's Presence
        1 Pursuit of Knowledge
        1 Ancestral Recall
// Vs. Control (5)
        3 Duress
        1 City of Solitude
        1 Words of Waste
// Recursion (4)
        4 Replenish
// Search (4)
        3 Sterling Grove
        1 Demonic Tutor
// Removal (4)
        1 Seal of Cleansing
        1 Pariah
        1 Balance
        1 The Abyss
// Staying Alive (3)
        1 Overgrown Estate
        1 Moat
        1 Worship
// Kill (2)
        2 Sacred Mesa
// Sideboard (15)
SB:  2 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  2 Powder Keg
SB:  2 Femeref Enchantress
SB:  2 Aura Fracture
SB:  1 Choke
SB:  2 Compost
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Black
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  1 City of Solitude
SB:  1 Karmic Justice

[BillTheDuck]

I do like the idea of one fetchable Tundra to make recall easier to cast. Also could you post what you cut for your recent additions if its possible.

I also really like the addition of words of waste.

Was the ruby cut a recent thing or was it like that for a while. I would perfer it in there to allow better chances of one of you 6 enchantress effects or sylvan library to hit on first turn.

[kirdape3]

Sorry CooberP, but stuff that isn't tested just doesn't belong in the Extreme Forum.

[cooberp]

Well stick it back there cause I just tested for 6 hours, and everything is really, really good.  I never missed anything.  The deck is really qualitatively different now--it NEVER is searching for a threat and has multiple Enchantress effects on the board every game, which make it less dependent on Sylvan, which is great.  However, Sylvan is always on the board as well.  Words of Waste tested phenomenally and is definitely maindecked as a one-of.  You don't usually get to wreck their hand with it, but that's only because they are so scared of it that they use all their resources to keep it off the board.  It's not bad on its own either.  It also has great synergy with multiple Sylvans--being able to Mind Twist for 7 each turn makes you say WoW!
And Windswept Heaths are WAY better than Brushlands; they are good color fixers that shuffle for Sylvan.
At least for now, this brings Enchantress back to the split range with Keeper.  I'll post further tweaks as testing evolves.\n\n

[Fastbond]

Have you thought about trading one Aura Fracture in the sideboard for the Carpet of Flowers that used to be maindecked?  The Choke Carpet of Flowers combo was incredible for beating back to basics. It's also undercosted for the amount of mana it could produce.

[cooberp]

Not sure if I'd cut a Fracture, but I might cut something.  Probably cut the Composts for Choke no. 2 and a Carpet.

[Max, the Mana Drainer]

I wouldn't cut a Fracture. It helps you to get rid of B2B.

Just a thought.


Max, the Mana Drainer

[ZoneSeek]

These changes will definitely strengthen the Enchantress archetype. When I first heard of the Words cycle, I thought Words of Worship would be a viable choice, but I quickly realised that it wasn't going to happen. It has really neat synergy with Sylvan Library, and with multiple Sylvans you stand to gain insane amounts of life; but on the other hand, without a Sylvan in play, it's not very useful. It wasn't until later that I saw Words of Waste that I realised a viable discard enchantment had finally be printed.

I have often wished that there was a tutorable "enchantment enchantress", and Wizards has finally printed one. It seems to be a very odd card out of the set but a very fair and balanced card, only playable really in type 1.

The new searchlands look really good on paper and I think they will prove to be just as good in play. For 1 life, the same as tapping a City of Brass (not really but you know what I mean), you get a permanent mana fix, a thinner deck, and often the most important thing you get is a shuffle. There have been so many games where I entered topdeck mode with a Sylvan out, hiding two useless, situational cards, trying to find an answer or shuffle, and adding the searchlands provides 2-3 more shuffles. Perhaps these are the boosts the decks needed to gain a permanent Tier 1 status?

[j_orlove]

The deck looks very strong, but what do you SB out vs Keeper and other control decks?
(obviously moat, abyss, etc., but you have a lot of SB cards to bring in, especially with 2 compost=>choke, carpet)

[LoA]

I'm curious how often you side in the Femeref Enchantresses.  Unless a deck is packing serious enchantment hate, I don't see these being good enough for 2 slots in the SB, unless I'm missing something obvious.  Even in games 2 and 3, Keeper doesn't have too many ways of dealing with enchantments and decks that can pack a ton of enchantment hate (like Stompy) are better paired with other cards from the SB.

With the aforementioned number of cards you can take out vs. Keeper, maybe cards like Abeyance would be better in these slots.

[cooberp]

ZoneSeek--Enchantress will never be Tier One because it dies to janky combo decks (as well as good ones).  It's a very poor choice for metagames where combo is prevalent.  A Tier One deck needs to be a solid choice for any metagame.
J_Orlove--I'd pull Pariah, Balance, Abyss, Moat, Worship, and Estate for 2 Fem, 2 Choke, 1 City, 1 Carpet.
LoA--The Fems are brought in against any deck that boards Aura Fracture.

[PsychoCid]

Coob, the deck finally looks something my time wouldn't be wasted on.  Congrats, I feel I must say, for sticking with the deck until now.  Just don't lose to Sligh for a mox, again, okay?

[Rico Suave]

This was asked before but you seemed to miss it.  Is the mana base better with Ruby or without?

I also noticed only 3 Sterling Groves.  I'm assuming the improved card-drawing makes up for any lost tutoring ability.

Ancestral is looking better if you go the route of the fetchlands.  I am still not a big fan of it in this deck, but the improved U access may change my mind.

[Radjammin]

Cooberp,
     I think you wished to the magic Gods and got your wish.  Either that or you sliped someone on this design team $50 bucks.  I too think Enchantress looks almost like a real deck now.  I allways thought that an enchantment deck needed all of it's threats in enchantments to go the distance.

The two cards you picked to keep are the ones I think you should too.  The white word is just too slow.  Takes 2 turns to abuse.

Quote The most obvious, of course, is Sylvan Library, which is now a 3-of and is always on the table.  Double Sceptering your opponent for 2 mana each turn is pretty savage

Now this troubles me.

Important and very confusing Rules question
Now I am pretty sure if you use the WoW during your draw phase and activate Sylvan it's all or nothing.  See Sylvan says any card drawn this turn.  If you use the replacement effect of the words you still have ot finish the sylvan effect.  Also I think, and I stress think, that the card you draw for the turn is the one you draw first, so if it is in your hand when you resolve sylvan you have to read the WHOLE card.  Sylvan does say more then just draw 2 additional cards.

I this this is something you can deal with.  Another good way to look at WOW is that when your enchantress is out and the WOW that your spells could read "pay 1: target player discards a card"  


Enchantress deck fells like the little engine that could the more enchants you get into play. (trying to say that as you get more enchantments you get more of a lockdown!!)


Sidenote: any chance of seeying Enchantress go 5 color?  I might be interesting to see it with that blue enchantment you get to take an extra turn with, incorporating worship and Sylvan

[Matt The Great]

It would seem that I stand in error. I will shut up now.\n\n

[leviat]

Quote (Matt The Great @ Sep. 25 2002,13:13)When you enter your draw phase all the active player's triggers (such as Sylvan) go on the stack. This includes your normal "draw a card". You can stack these however you want. So you can have Sylvan's draw be shunted off to Words, THEN draw your card and not have to put anything back.

That is not correct.

Sylvan Library (1G)
Enchantment

At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library. [Oracle 2000/02/01]

Card Rulings (Current as of 9/23/2002)  
- Spells and abilities are resolved one at a time, so if you use multiple Sylvan Libraries in one stack, each will resolve in sequence. You do not get to draw all the cards at once then put them all back at once. [WotC Rules Team 1994/09/15]
- You always resolve your normal draw before this ability because the normal draw is placed on the stack after this one is. [D'Angelo 2001/12/16]
- You can return zero, one, or two cards. [WotC Rules Team 1994/09/15]
- If you only get one or fewer draws due to this effect (because the other draws were replaced), you still have to put back 2 cards if possible. Any cards drawn this turn are applicable to this. This makes the Aladdin's Lamp replacement ineffective at escaping having to put a card back, since the Lamp does put a drawn card into your hand. [D'Angelo 1997/05/21]

((The rest of the rulings were cut to save space as they did not apply))

[Radjammin]

Matt the Great,

ahhh...  No.

You always resolve your normal draw before this ability because the normal draw is placed on the stack after this one is. [D'Angelo 2001/12/16]

[K-Run]

If I understand the rules correctly, that means that in order to make the opponent discard 2 cards and draw my normal card, I'll have to pay 4 lives ?

[Radjammin]

sorry K-Run,
you still got to deal with the other end effect from the other card.
So,
    If you really really want to use Words of Waste and Draw a card during the draw step you would have to Pay 2 mana and 8 life.

Why not just pay 3 and make him discard 3 and forget about drawing for that turn.

Everyone focus on this line from Sylvan :
If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn.

[j_orlove]

This should go in the rules mill.

Uh, dont' focus on that line. The next one is more important:

Quote For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library.

It's 4 life. If you can only choose 1 card--because the others went to words of waste (they can all be abbreviated WoW  ), then you only have to pay 4 life. Sylvan makes you pay 8 if you have 2 cards that you "should" put back and don't. 1 card, 4 life. No cards, 0 life. It's pretty simple.

[Radjammin]

Quote (j_orlove @ Sep. 25 2002,16:59)1 card, 4 life. No cards, 0 life. It's pretty simple.

Pretty simple, pretty wrong.

The replacement effect only replaces the draw part of the effect. See what goes up must come down, it just doesn't keep going up.  The effect has 2 effects, the card drawing is just half.  Yes the Words of Waste replace the drawing part of the effect but the second part still happens.  It states that for EACH of the two cards you drew extra you must either put a card back you have drawn this turn or pay 4 life.  Now we have all alreardy aggreed that the your free card for the draw phase is in your hand, actually if you check the ruling on sylvan it even says that any card drawn this turn is effected, even cards drawnd during your upkeep.  An example would be a cantrip resolving.  

So lets recap where we are.  We drew the draw phase card.  We then drew the extra 2 cards from the sylvan, but we decided to replace the drawing with the words of waste effect.  For this example we will say that we paid 2 to replace 2 cards draw, lets say specificly the sylvan cards.  Ok so now we have the draw phase card in our hand, and oh wait we still got to pay up at the bar!!!  The sylvan effect has to resolve completly now.  We drew 2 from the sylvan so we have to either put 2 cards back, put 1 card back and pay 4 life, or pay 8 life and put no cards back.
note: sylavan only effects cards drawn this turn
See where our draw phase card goes? It goes to pay our bar tab at the Sylvan Love Lounge.

Dead sexy.....

[cooberp]

Sylvan/WoW works for the same reason that Sylvan/Abundance or Sylvan/PoK works.  Any replacement-draw effects mean that since you don't draw the cards you don't have to put them back or pay life.

[cooberp]

Sylvan/WoW works for the same reason that Sylvan/Abundance or Sylvan/PoK works.  Any replacement-draw effects mean that since you don't draw the cards you don't have to put them back or pay life.
Rico Suave--you assume correctly.
Radjammin--I don't think it's necessary or that the mana can handle it.  Ancestral is just a one-of; committing to a fourth color would really cream the mana base.  Keeper is a base blue deck with a secondary color, two tertiary colors, and a splash; a deck that Really Needs All Three Colors can't support a real fourth color off anything more than five-color lands (and one dual to be fetched).

Radjammin and PsychoCid--Well, I don't know what your criteria for a "real deck" is, but posting an above-50% record at Neutral Ground over 2/3 of a year seems to legitimate the deck to me.  That said, Onslaught gives Enchantress a tremendous boost against control.

[Rakso]

Quote (kirdape3 @ Sep. 19 2002,20:40)Sorry CooberP, but stuff that isn't tested just doesn't belong in the Extreme Forum.

I would like to voice that this statement is ridiculous.

If there's one thing that belongs in Extreme Vintage, especially considering the quality of some of the posts here anyway, it should be CooberP's comments on potential new cards for Enchantress.

I think that's something I'd like to read without the risk of passing it over because I got distracted by junk. I also think that I'd want to read his opinion even if he thought of it while jacking off because I think he does know his deck.

This is very strange modding, IMHO, and I wanted to say this even though it got moved back.

[Radjammin]

Quote If you only get one or fewer draws due to this effect (because the other draws were replaced), you still have to put back 2 cards if possible. Any cards drawn this turn are applicable to this. This makes the Aladdin's Lamp replacement ineffective at escaping having to put a card back, since the Lamp does put a drawn card into your hand. [D'Angelo 1997/05/21]

Sad when the designeer of Enchantress plays 3 Sylvan library's and doesn't know how the card works.......  cooberp research the phrases "placed into hand" and "drawn"  

Oh and you pointed out pursuit and abundance.  See both of these cards work but I don't think you have spent any time understanding how.

First the easy one, abundance.  It is a replacement effect that replaces with cards into hand, NOT DRAWN!! You just simply replace all 3 cards drawn with place into hand.  Then you have not acutally drawn any cards this turn to put back.

second one is harder.  Now the correct way to play pursuit is to in the draw phase draw NO cards.  Instead you choose to put 3 counters on the pursuit.  Then in your MAIN PHASE, pop your pursuit.  If you try and pop your pursuit during your draw phase or draw any other extra cards during your draw phase or the upkeep playing against me I am going to ask you to put 2 back for the sylvan,  pay 4 and put 1 back, or pay 8.

I am wrong about this part, you only pay life for actuall cards you have in hand you don't want to put back, that you have "DRAWN" this turn

Draw Replacement effects only replace Draws, that's it. You still got to pay up at the bar........ it's just that Sylvan only excepts special currency.  Cards drawn this turn, or life.

[j_orlove]

Care to step outside? (to the rules mill...  )

let's go

Any comments about rules issues with sylvan should go there.

I dont want to see another post until someone is ready to discuss something worthwhile.

-Zherbus

[Rogue]

I recently tested sligh and suicide against enchantress(with Coober), and in his own words, i won more than i should have(particularly with suicide). Pariah-negator didn't happen in well over 15 games, and while going first did matter(as did the apprentice shuffler), I won around 66% of the games unboarded. The biggest reason was because of my land kill. I was frequently able to screw him out of both color and ammount of land.
My solution? A different mana base. I have cut ancestral because 1. against aggro, I want a better mana base and 2. against control I am rather afraid of mis-d(I would rather use my duresses to force through an enchantress or a sylvan).Another benefit of windswept heath is that if dropped first turn, it negates any lacd destruction to prevent you from reaching 2 or 3 mana(provided you also dropped a mox). That said, here is my current list.
        4 Savannah
        3 Scrubland
        3 Bayou
        4 Windswept Heath
        4 City of Brass
        3 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Serra's Sanctum
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Black Lotus
        4 Argothian Enchantress
        2 Enchantress’s Presence
        3 Sylvan Library
        1 Pursuit of Knowledge
        2 Sacred Mesa
        3 Duress
        1 City of Solitude
        1 Words of Waste
        4 Replenish
        3 Sterling Grove
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Balance
        1 Seal of Cleansing
        1 The Abyss
        1 Pariah
        1 Overgrown Estate
        1 Worship
        1 Moat
I have not finished a sideboard to my liking, but I have not been overly impressed with the femeref enchantresses.\n\n

[cooberp]

Where is your Library of Alexandria??

Fems are only good against Aura Fracture.

Suicide gets extremely favorable after sideboarding.

[Rogue]

I left out LOA...I might need to fix that   . Sui DOES get much better after boarding. I mostly just found ancestral to be a typically(and i mean this only in this deck, and i never thought i'd say it about this card) win more or fairly useless card. I liked imporved stability in my mana over it. I completely understand if anyone wants to run it, but I personally wouldn't. I see almost no aura fracture, so good-bye femeref.
I have actually yet to encounter a non combo matchup which i found to be overly bad, and I was wondering what matchups in particular(besides combo, obviously) people had generally found to be a pain. With so much tutoring and recursion, a couple of sideboard cards could really make the difference.
As a side note, Coober and I discussed that the deck now has 4 3cc enchantments to fight control(Presence, waste, choke, city), all of which can be good in different situations, and 2 of which are never dead.

[cooberp]

I find Ancestral Recall draws three cards for one mana.  Somehow, I can *always* cast it.  Somehow, that *wins*--more if you're winning, breaks open a stalemate if it's even, or helps you come from behind if you're losing.  I mean, dude, three cards.
If you see no Fracture, run no Femeref.  That is its purpose.
We're no longer maindecking Choke cause Keeper can usually play around it.
4-PoP Sligh still is 50% at best.  You can slam Worship down pretty quickly, but if you can't find an Enchantress or get to four mana you're toast.