Keeper Kernals: Cunning Wish

[Smmenen]

There are several reasons why I love Keeper:

1) It's reliant - you can always have faith that your deck will get you through the storm and if you hold tight and relax, it will.  

2) All the cards are really broken so its alot of fun to play.

3) It's one of the few decks that beats, in my experience, TnT consistantly and Mask.  In testing, Keeper does very well against TnT by attacking its weak mana base and by using its utility spells to negate card advantage.  The creature removal spells: STP and Edict wtih recursion are really solid.  

It should be obvious to everyone now that Cunning Wish is a permanent addition to Keeper.  Here is what I am playing right now:

4 City of Brass
4 Underground Sea (Alpha)
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Cunning Wish

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Braingyser
1 Sylvan Library
1 Fact of Fiction
1 Time Walk

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Fire/Ice
1 Abyss
1 Balance

1 Zuran Orb
1 Mind Twist
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Regrowth
1 Dismantling Blow

2 Morphling

SB:

4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Aura Fracture
1 Moat
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tundra
1 Allay
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Scrying Glass
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Planar Void

I'd like to fit Teferi's Response.  I know the Tundra seems janky - but against aggressive decks like Stompy, Sligh, and Suicide Black - it's not bad to side out a Wasteland for it to support Moat and more STPs.

Here are some thoughts about Keeper and where I currently stand on it:

Academy is amazingly broken and generates lots of mana for this deck.  Once in a while it can cause problems - but I don't mind it.

The misdirection doesn't belong maindeck.  This isn't really a counter deck - it's a 5 color control deck and usually adding more counters means cutting better spells, and in this case, one misdirection won't really have it's presence felt as well as the Cunning Wish will in its place.

EDIT:  

Since I started this thread as a discussion of my Keeper as a whole I will recontextualize the major debate here about Keeper and stake out some territory.  

But first I would like to say that on the whole I think this thread, when looked over has remained civil.  The mods here do great at keeping the flaming down, the discussion good, and the tone respectful.  

My thoughts:

One of the reasons I had issues with Keeper last year is becuase, as Rakso correctly pointed out, but for the wrong reasons - my view of Keeper was somewhat outdated.  I had viewed it as a silver bullet deck that has a specific Modus Operendi.  The major ones being see how fast Moat can come into play, cast ancestral a billion times, and then Mind Twist and play morphling.  This explains my previous disdain for Wasteland, Shaman, not playing Moat.  Have you ever goldfished with Keeper?  That was how I used to play it; a way that I see now as hopelessly outdated and downright wrong.   (I have more to say about this in a moment).  But having played Mono blue for a long while has given me some distance from Keeper and made me realize a better way to now play Keeper.

At Origins when I saw Carl play with Cunning Wish I knew at that moment that it was a permanent addition to Keeper  My theory on why was that it was good against control and aggro and combo.  For the same list of functions that Carl says Cunning Wish performs, I will call it a tutor and I truly consider as one.  This statement is strengthened by the fact that I agree partially with the statement that Keeper isn't a silver bullet deck anymore.  The reason I think this is primarily true, but not totally is becuase Keeper does have silver bullets, but its not totally about them.  It is about 1) powerful cards and 2) reacting and 3) timing.  

The things that I have learned playing mono blue is that first, as good as Library of Alexandria and Strip Mine was from 97-00, in my view they are slightly more important to Keeper now.  Another big lesson that I learned about Keeper while playing mono blue is that it is not a counterspell deck (which I stated in the opening post).  It is about playing really powerful spells one after another.  It is still about versatility.  Another lesson from mono blue is that the proliferation of Misdirections has made early tutor for ancestral or mindtwist far less viable compared to the alternatives and just saving the tutors for better things that will arise.  

Each of these major lessons tells me with unerring direction that vampiric is still good and one that I will probably not test Keeper without.  Using vampiric to tutor for Wasteland, Strip Mine, and in particular Shaman and Library (uncounterable bomb) is extremely good - even in mirror matches.  I have also found the the rise of mono colored decks in average type one metagames have led to a decline in the use of Wasteland in general.  Another thing that I have found is that decks in general have lowered their mana bases.  This makes Wasteland and Strip Mine even better.  Against mono blue Strip Mine is a house - as is Gorilla Shaman.  I gladly regrow Strip Mine.  Wasteland and Strip mine are extremely good against TnT, Grow, Oath, and Keeper.  

One of the things I like about Azhrei's article - a point that I didn't think had specifically been addressed was that Keeper wants to wait to maximize its options.  Goldfishing with Keeper is one of the most destructive things that  Keeper player can do - except to check the mana on a most general level.  This is becuase you are forcing yourself to make decisions you should never make until you actually have an opponent so that you can maximize those choices.  

The other thing about Cunning Wish is that times when you MOST advantageously use Misdirection you do so pretty early on - to an early Hymn, Ancestral, etc.  At those times you are probably going to pitch a blue card to misdirection and you only have one in the deck AND none of the tutors (scroll, demonic, vampiric, and mystical) can, at instant speed, put mis-d in your hand from your library.  So, in order to mis-d that ancestral or hymn you practically need it in your opening hand.  Well I have at least twice so far gone first turn get three mana (once from zorb, mox, tolarian, and another time from Sol, mox, land) cunning Wish for Misd- for the same effect.  

For me the issue of Cunning Wish is non-negotiable - it's simply amazing and stays in Keeper.  But I would not take out Vampiric either becuase of the reasons mentioned.  While Keeper isn't a silver bullet deck, tutoring for cards which put you in a better position that you would have been without it is always good.  Vampricing for Shaman has already won me several games.  And in a Keeper mirror if you manage to waste their first waste, and then vamp for LOA, it might be two turns until you get to LOA range - but I guarantee that your opponent is going to do almost anything to try and prevent that from happening.


The only reason I wouldn't play this deck is if I expected Back to Basics or Ophidian mono blue or if I didn't expect alot of Keeper and then I would just probably play Mask becuase the Mask is really good against the new aggro decks like Zoo, etc.  This deck just has alot of problems with mono blue.  

Stephen Menendian\n\n

[Maxx Matt]

great side smmenen!!!
and great deck!!!

i have  only two quest:

the lack of MiS-D fear me a lot... i don't know why but it isn't so situational for me and his versatilily is very good in MANY other situations ( mis-d regrowth target, mis-d urza's rage, mis-d any fire against  me, mis-d ancestrall, mis-d a counter... it seems a lot... but i realize that you know what mis-d do...and well too...  )


cunning wish with your side his great!!!!  the only lack that i see is for teferi's response... but if you drop the academy. and add the 4 tundra in the main deck, i think that it could be the last card of your side...

i try cunning and it is very good too.
i don't know if the lack of powder kegs in the side lowered my chances of beating a well built/played aggro deck ( StP aren't always good or  enough... ) or  the combo match up... i can REB in my first match.. but is enough???

my 2 cents

------------------------
Maxx MAtt
------------------------

[Grand Inquisitor]

Smmenen,

I like the deck; next on my list of decks to test is a keeper with cunning wish.  Here's my suggestion on how to fit in teferi's response and help your mana base support moat.  i'll admit i haven't played nearly as much keeper as some others here, but it makes sense to me.

MD
-1 Volcanic Island
+1 Tundra

SB
-1 Tundra
+1 Teferi's Response

my reasoning:
There seems to be a shift towards aggro in the T1 metagame.  Therefore you want removal early in the game to deal with aggro's threats.  In keeper, white typically helps against aggro and red typically helps against control.

In cunning wish keeper, the exception is shattering pulse against fat artifact and mask, but since you want to recur the pulse anyway, you want to use other forms of removal early and the pulse mid to late game.

For me this would dictate more white sources, so that you have them early when it counts against aggro.  Yes, its important, in the control matchup, to be able to cast an opening hand mox monkey.  I think the shift in metagame dictates the change though.

This also allows you to fit in teferi's response.

As far as the red in your sb, shattering pulse is a midgame card if used properly, and REB's are for the control matchup (where there will be a midgame whether you like it or not).

On another topic, I always run tolarian academy.  you can argue either way (its probably sub-optimal), but its a lot more fun.

As far as buyback spells (shattering pulse, allay), how does it work with yawgmoth's will?  do they get removed if you try to buy them back from the grave?

As far as MisD, I agree with Maxx that it should stay main.  Concerning Vampiric Tutor, i'm not so sure.  I think a debate on that card in keeper should be started in the main forum.

-GI

[Azhrei]

I personally find Tolarian Academy to be a waste. Every so often I brush the dust off mine, put it in the deck, play a couple games, curse violently, and hurl it back into the corner for another few months. ESPECIALLY if you have Undiscovered Paradise-- two gimp lands are more than you need to have them ruin you on a regular basis. I'd just play the Tundra maindeck and be done with it.

Vampiric Tutor is so completely unnecessary I can't even tell you.

Planar Void should really be an Ebony Charm-- it's Wishable and doesn't make YAWGMOTH'S WILL A DEAD DRAW[/i]. 'Nuff said.

Not running 1-2 Misdirection makes you a considerably weaker threat in the mirror match. It means I can Stroke, Geyser, Twist, or Ancestral without fear.

[Rakso]

You forgot the part about adding Living Wish to make that sideboarded Tundra more useful.

You seem to have forgotten the part about posting useful commentary. That's kinda the whole point.

-- Azhrei\n\n

[Smmenen]

If I have trouble with some of the new aggro decks, I think that Pryoclasm is very good at dealing with them.  I could always cut more cards for a pyroclasm or two.  I think Kegs are good too.  The SB is slightly tuned, but not perfect.  Keeper just has so many wonderful SB options that building a great SB requires alot of tournament play and not just theorizing.  


Rakso,

If you want to come out and say that the Tundra is a waste than say it.  I can respect that.  I said I thought it was janky.  But perhaps a necessary jankyness.

I think that Tolarian Academy is a powerhouse.  This is Keeper which is about powerful cards and many of its cards are mana intensive.  I could list here the times where Tolarian is extremely useful:  It helps the Yawgmoth's Wills.  It helps with Strokes and Gysers.  It helps early Facts.  It helps to hardcast FOW.  It helps to support morphling.  It complements the strips and wastes by giving you so much more mana than your opponent.  The times where it isn't useful is where you need colored mana immediately - and my deck seems to be good to me in that regard.  

Azhrei - I respect your decision concerning vampiric, becuase I think that you reallly beleive yourself to be correct.  But I don't think the vampiric tutor idea is catching on.  As far as I can tell, at least a majority of Keeper players realize its value and keep it in.  Frankly, at the least I find it hard to understand why you would want to cut Vampiric instead of Mystical.  The counter-arguments seem to be that vampriic isn't FOW bait and that the two life matter.  Without mystical you still have plenty of FOW targets, and its not like Mystical frequently is used as such in my play experience. With mystical, it is generally as efficient to stop the spell with FOW by pitching Mystical and Mysticalling for the card to stop the spell.  The fact that Vampiric goes for land and artifacts can matter in a big way and provides much greater versatility as I have already described with Wastelands and LOA.  And the two life doesn't matter.  And if it does, than I'll just play with both.  

I think you might be right about the Planar Void.  I had it in there recognizing that it would mess up Yawg Will if I drew the Planar Void first.  I've seen it in a lot of Keeper SB's around here so I thought I would try it as anit-TnT technology.  It seems that Nuetering their cards with it would be worth the trade off.  But seeing as I  have never actually tested it, it is easily possible that I am wrong.  But I would actully like opinions from someone who has tested it .  



Stephen Menendian\n\n

[Rakso]

1) Planar Void was stuck in by German mono blue players along with Edicts in a stopgap move to try to cope with TnT. I don't think the splash included Will.

2) I play Vampiric, but getting to use LoA off it takes a lot more than tutoring for the land. Vampiric for LoA a lot...\n\n

[Smmenen]

On the basis of those suggestions I will cut Planar Void for the Teferi's Response of my SB.  But should someone say otherwise, speak up now or forever hold your peace .

Stephen Menendian

[Rakso]

Wait a minute... you're right. Living Wish isn't there... so what's the Tundra for?

I thought that was a page off Bennie Rott's gayest and quickly discarded experiment ever.

[Gothmog]

This is heresy I know, but could it be time to consider a main deck Tormod's Crypt or a sideboard Ebony Charm as Azhrei suggested?

TnT and other graveyard recursion decks are the obvious reason.  I think you have to play Crypt main if you're going to play it, because it can't be wished for.  Especially in Smmenen's deck, which is playing both Regrowth and Yawg Will for recursion, a Crypt would go a long way toward helping against TnT.

What to remove would be the issue, if I had to choose, I'd select Merchant Scroll, but I can see the argument against that.

SB'd Ebony Charm is interesting, but my thought is, tutoring for Cunning Wish for something else sucks.  Also, if you're going to bother with dedicating a card to destroying cards that are hurting you in a graveyard, does it do enough?  Crypt is a much more complete solution.

[Big Blue]

Hey, this is really a nostalgic thread in several senses:

Smmenen posting a Keeper Kernel and Azhrei and Rakso replying with posts - just like in those days at BD

Moreover, I believe that Cunning Wish has been discussed quite exhaustively in the Extreme Vintage Forum.

As to your deck and the ensuing suggestions:

On Academy: this card is cycling in a temporal sense - every now and then it makes a come-back; with FoF restricted and Stroke+Geysir it is actually quite ok, but often it simply sucks - so unless you want to join the Combo-Keeper party I'd also vote for consistency over brokenness in this particular case

On Vampiric: there shouldn´t be any discussion IMHO - it is a must unless your metagame is really weird (i.e. no Sui at all but nevertheless lots of Control)

On Planar Void: I believe Azhrei´s suggestion of Ebony Charm makes more sense (provided that Planar Void was there for a reason)

Tundra in the SB is quite solid - I would keep it for the reasons you mentioned

On StoP: I don´t know - surely ok, blabla metagame, but... I´d really kick it out for a Mis-D; but then again, I have to Mis-D a lot since every second game here is against Sui lately...

On Mis-D: It DOES belong maindeck, no matter if you want to call Keeper a counter deck or not (names usually do not change the content of a thing, although people sometimes try hard, especially marketing guys); since the restriction of FoF the number of draw-X played in Keeper has doubled, against Sui it is GREAT, against stupid Sligh players as well and in counter-wars it is your 5th FoW; so unless you face solamente Stompy and TnT you really should play it

Oh, yes, a final word: It is much fun to destroy mono-U with 4 B2B after SBing - so even in such a metagame I would face the challenge and play Keeper (albeit with a slightly modified maindeck, a bit more JP´s ®DK) - REBs+Duress+Counters+brokenness are too much for mono-U... However, a diverse metagame with just a few mono-U players is dangerous - you cannot devote your SB almost exclusively to mono-U anymore, and in such metagames mono-U generally beats Keeper more easily

[CrazyCarl]

My anti-graveyard card in my sideboard has been(and I think will stay) Phyexian Furnace.  The fact that it sticks on the board and that it cycles more than makes up for the fact it doesn't remove everything at once.

Also, against TnT, I'm still not sure on this, but my theory on Ebony Charm is that if you're wishing for the Charm, you -aren't- wishing for Shattering Pulse.  Often, I'll just wish for Pulse, play it as Shatter, then Regrow or Will it back later.  So basically, early on, it's just a removal spell, and late game, it does it's dirty work over and over again.

Smmenen: I too have stopped running Vampiric Tutor.  I essentially replaced it with the Cunning Wish, which does nearly everything I ever wanted the Vamp to do.  I can honestly say, I haven't missed it, and once you stop playing with it, you won't miss it either.   Also, when did you start playing Keeper again?\n\n

[Matt The Great]

However, Charm is also good against other Keeper's Will/Regrowth, all sorts of Oath, and the odd Squee/Krovikan Horror or Reanimator decks.
Note: can also kill a player sitting on Argothian Enchantress and Worship.

EDIT: I'm talking about Charm vs. Pulse, not Furnace.\n\n

[Azhrei]

@ Big Blue: I am one of two Keeper decks in a 10-16 deck aggro field. I was one of the first to cut Vampiric, and have never missed it. I agree that this is truly not up for debate either. We also have more TnT than Keeper, Stompy, Suicide, and Sligh besides. Vampiric is just not a good choice for a slot.

@Smmenen: Ebony Charm is THE card to board versus TnT if you run Wish main. Regarding Vampiric, just try playing with a Misdirection instead-- once you get used to it, I guarantee you'll like it better. I was running Response in that slot for half a year and loving it before Wish became a suitable fourth tutor card. I was very reluctant to give up Blessings back when YawgWill came out, and I think Vampiric Tutor is in the same boat as Blessings used to be, in a less obvious way (YawgWill convinced me after casting it once  )-- I fully believe that Vamp needs to be cut, and that Mystical needs to stay because it's easier to cast, FoW bait, and doesn't eat life.

Just try it.

[spin13]

Though this is coming from the perspective of an OSE player, the only matchup I ever found Vampiric to be worthwhile in was Suicide (because of its ability to Tutor and still hide from discard, as well as grab Lotus to drop Abyss).  I still stand by the notion that Vamp Tutor isn't necessarily bad in any one matchup, its still good not good enough to play.  I don't even care about hte whole "card disadvantage" thing against control; its still good there, its just not good enough.

I no longer play Vamp, and even before Cunning Wish, found that my deck was much better running an additional answer rather than a card to find a fewer amount of answers.  The fact that my deck is still running Mystical/DT/Scroll and all the card drawing, you will find what you need without Vamp.

Ebony Charm is the SB card to play if you have Wish.  You only get one choice between Charm and Pulse, but if you pick what is worse at the moment, you should be able to trust the rest of your deck to finish off the other part.  If you must Charm away Genesis and Squee, you've still got all your Edicts and D.Blows and Swords for the rest.  Its the overload of all of it at the same time thats the problem, so having the availability of both answers is the best idea.

 -Eric

[CrazyCarl]

Don't TnT decks run -two- Squee's?  So even if you Charm away that, Wonder, and Anger, you still need to deal with the other Squee(Though their guys won't have haste anymore or fly, so at that point it should be possible to race.)  Interesting, I'm going to have to give it a try.\n\n

[Smmenen]

Carl --
I don't really have a "primary deck."  I just play what I think will give me perfect records.  I've been playing the mono blue for about a year now and will continue to do so -- I just wanted to try some Keeper to gauge its power level and it is still a powerhouse.  Plus, its really fun and I also felt that I had done all I could with the mono blue at the moment.  

I still think that overall I prefer the mono blue more becuase the one thing I hate is playing Keeper and losing to cheesy mono blue decks just because of Back to Basics.  

Here is what I would play in certain environments:

1) I would play Keeper in an environment that is high level aggro oriented field that lacks mono blue such as our 8-man t1 side events that PES puts on in Columbus or tournaments with TnT and Mask.

2) I would play Mask in an environment such as the slightly larger t1s such as the one at the Cleveland Grand Prix that lacks Keeper but is rife with mono blue and aggro decks.  

3) I would play Mono blue in an environement with aggro, Keeper, and other mono blue elements such as Origins.

I think that my familiarity with Mask gives my mono blue an edge whereas most mono blues willl just die to it.  Control Magic also helps.  

It's also easy to say that I would play deck X in a totally random field - but the thing about that is it usually is never totally random.  At the very least by having experience in type one tournaments you have an idea by what the tournament is and where it is what you should expect to see.  You also should know a few other people who are playing.  So in general, it never is truly random or unkown.  

The one qualifier is that the Mask I use is my friend Pauls build which is very tuned and has Time Walk, Ancestral, and Seal of Cleansing.

Stephen Menendian\n\n

[cooberp]

I think most TnT just run one...unless they've added another to deal with graveyard hate.

[Zherbus]

Quote Azhrei - I respect your decision concerning vampiric, becuase I think that you reallly beleive yourself to be correct.  But I don't think the vampiric tutor idea is catching on.  As far as I can tell, at least a majority of Keeper players realize its value and keep it in.

I have also cut Vampiric. It took me a while, but I did it and am really happy I did. Is it catching on? I dont know, but the  players who are cutting it aren't the same Keeper players who are losing more often and blaming Keeper in general instead of playstyle and card selection.

[LoA]

I'll chime in as a non-Vampiric Keeper player as well.  I'm playing Teferi's Response in its place and loving it.  I'm not sold on Cunning Wish yet, but that's a separate issue.  

Cutting the Vampiric was good for my deck because:

I wanted to go back up to 4 Tundra (to support Moat in the sideboard), so I needed to cut the number of Underground Seas to 3, making the Vamp less effective.

I upped the number of pitchable blue cards--pitching Mana Drain or Morphling just isn't cool.  Now I have 2 cards (Fire/Ice and Teferi's Response) I can pitch without too much regret.

I'm loving cards like D. Blow and Teferi's Response: cards you have some card advantage built into them.  Cards that cost you a draw, like Mystical and Vampiric, are always under close examination.  Mystical gets the edge because a)it's blue and b) vs. aggro I would generally go for Balance either way and paying 2 life vs. aggro isn't such a hot idea.

My final reason is pretty much a rehash of Spin13's post.  With Mystical, Merchant Scroll, and Demonic Tutor as fetch cards and Fact or Fiction, Ancestral Recall, Stroke of Genius, Braingeyser, Sylvan Library, Dismantling Blow, Teferi's Response, Library of Alexandria, and Fire/Ice to draw cards, Keeper is doing pretty well in terms of finding solutions to various threats.  Playing Vampiric just strengthens something Keeper is already good at and makes it less flexible overall.

Cutting Vampiric was bad for my deck because:

It forced me to use 2 slots in my sideboard for CoP: Red.

It makes me weaker vs. mono-black, the deck I always seemed to like drawing the Vampiric against.  Luckily, the replacement card is also good vs. mono-black, although not to the same degree.

[Azhrei]

One thing I should mention that I hadn't earlier-- Vamp got cut from my Keeper when FoF became restricted. In a lot of ways, I consider FoF to be in the Vamp slot and not Cunning Wish. I cut Vamp from OSE because with the redundancy and 3 FoFs the deck had very little need for tutors, and I found in Keeper that the addition of another big draw spell made a fourth tutor less necessary.

[Ruboonia]

Azhrei - Do you have an updated Keeper decklist that I could take a look at?

[Freddie]

I do think that keeper players should be open to cutting old stand bys for newer, and possibly more effective cards... ie cutting blessing when yawg will was printer, cutting disenchant when d.blow was printed etc.

So I can see were some players will cut the vamp for a wish, or responce, or misdirection.

However,

I do not understand why the players that do cut cards like vamp will so quickly condem players that still use it.

"Now that I have made the switch, anyone that still plays 'X' is living in the past"

This is because a card swap like cunning wish in place of vamp is not exactly the same as the swap of d. blow instead  of disenchant, or yawg will in place of blessing.

Cunning wish is not a "stricktly better" version of mystical.

It is a good card that serves a similar  but seperate roll.

i still personally play vamp, and do not play cunning, but do not think that anyone is less skilled or foolish for thinking differently.

This is not directed to anyone inparticular, no names mentioned, but I think that the attitude of "Card 'x' is obsolete now and you are not as good of a player if you still play it" is a natural tendency that should be held in check.

-Freddie

[Zherbus]

Quote I do not understand why the players that do cut cards like vamp will so quickly condem players that still use it.

"Now that I have made the switch, anyone that still plays 'X' is living in the past"

Who said that? As far as I am aware, noone is comdemning anyone. We are justifying the reason, but not blowing everyone who didnt make the change off.

Quote This is because a card swap like cunning wish in place of vamp is not exactly the same as the swap of d. blow instead  of disenchant, or yawg will in place of blessing.

Cunning wish is not a "stricktly better" version of mystical.

Noone said that either; 2 Mystical tutors would surely be nice. Cunning Wish just presents a new type of search, where now we can run dead cards with out fear of drawing them.

Quote This is not directed to anyone inparticular, no names mentioned, but I think that the attitude of "Card 'x' is obsolete now and you are not as good of a player if you still play it" is a natural tendency that should be held in check.

Again, who is saying that?

I think that statement should be reversed. Too many people are appauled at the idea of cutting Vamp. Not only is it out of the question for many, but it seems to be downright ridiculous.

People think its only for people who play Keeper mirrors all day. LoA, Carl, Az, and myself ALL play varied environments. We face aggro one round and control the next. Once you get that myth out of your head and find yourself with a new slot to fill in Keeper, you will likely see that you wont miss Vampiric.

Look at it like this way: Everyone who cut Vamp has played it. Those who havent made the switch have likely not played without it.

Oh yeah...

MOVED. Extreme Vintage material

[riverboa11]

Just piping in as another Keeper player who doesn't use Vampiric Tutor.  I cut it about a month ago, but unlike Az, I replaced it with Cunning Wish.  No let downs so far, as I love to fetch the silver bullets in my sideboard.

Also, I by no means play in an all control enviroment.  It is actually a pretty nice blend of control, aggro and combo with (mostly) good players piloting these decks.  It is so much better to get an answer directly to your hand, rather then having to wait a turn to draw it.

[-CF-]

Planar Void seems random. Both Ebony Charm, Rapid Decay, Cremate and the Furnace would be better. I play green, so I of course use Ground Seal. ;o)

As far as Vampiric goes, in my current wacky keeperesque thing I have 2 Cunning Wish main and Vampiric in the SB.

--
Chris\n\n

[BigChuck]

I think the thing about vampiric tutor, is that while it is a quality card, it isn't like it's your only way to go find an answer. At least in my experience, a lot of the time when you tutor, it is for an answer(be it Abyss, Balance, etc.). Cunning Wish does the same thing, but it also allows you access to better answers. There isn't really a good main deck straight up answer to TnT, but with the addition of wish, you  can go get a shattering pulse. It allows the use of more conditional cards in your board, which in turn, will increase your game one win percentage against some decks. Having the extra  edict or StoP is always useful. Teferi's Response is some good card advantage, and depending and what else is there, you can use the wish to give you a better chance game one. At worst, you side it out for the card you would be getting with it(if it's an obvious choice) games 2 and 3.
Vampiric is useful, but as already been mentioned, you lose the life, and the card advantage for it. I've just found that  at most points in the game, I'd rather be able to find a more  specific answer with the wish, then the more general answer with the Vamp. Wish also has the added bonus of being blue, so if need be, can be pitched to FoW or Mis-D, though, generally, you'd like to keep it around.

[Big Blue]

Big Chuck: Cunning Wish - while being a good card - does NOT achieve the same (or, as you seem to claim, even something better) than Vamp - the 2 examples that you mention (Balance and Abyss) are already reason enough to include it. Add YawgWin to the mix and talk again about "card disadvantage" - in these 3 particular cases card disadvantage is essentially irrelevant - what do you propose as wishable substitue for Abyss, Balance or YawgWin?

I believe that in any metagame where mono-B is present Vamp must be maindecked. It is one of the best cards in this matchup and far from being "dead" in any other matchup. For random metagames it should be a default card.

And the 2 life, while sometimes being annoying, are usually of little concern - you grab the silver bullet or the only card that saves you anyway.

BTW, has anybody of you tried to cut Ancestral? No? So how do you know it is a bad idea?  

[Zherbus]

Quote Add YawgWin to the mix and talk again about "card disadvantage" - in these 3 particular cases card disadvantage is essentially irrelevant - what do you propose as wishable substitue for Abyss, Balance or YawgWin?

If Yawgmoth's will said: Lose two life, lose a turn, and then do X, it would still be playable but not nearly as good in Keeper.

Cunning Wish doesnt replace a tutor, it gives a different type of tutoring. It fetches solid hosers, ones that cant be maindecked.

Quote BTW, has anybody of you tried to cut Ancestral? No? So how do you know it is a bad idea?  

No because Ancestral doesnt: make me lose a turn, cost me a card, is off color, or hurt me in the process. Dont you think that there is a bit of difference between considerations for each card? Its not like you need to stick your dick in a cheese grater to know its a bad idea.

Again, noone is condemning anyone who runs Vamp, I personally think once you realize that Keeper is no longer a silver bullet based deck, you realize that Vamp is expendable.

[Dozer]

I have been running Cunning Wish *and* Vamp. Now I replaced one of them, and it wasn't the Vampiric... Since I own only CE P9, I could not play Keeper in the Dülmen field (where Cunning Wish had been pretty good). Instead, I mostly took Keeper to our local play group, which featured some control but a lot more aggro. Although Cunning Wish could get me the random Mis-D, BEB and StoP, it never gave me the thing that Keeper does best: 1-for-many trades. Cunning Wish is mostly about finding 1-1 answers, and against the fast Aggro-decks (Stompy, Sui, Sligh - all three were present with good builds), Cunning Wish did nothing for me that the maindeck could not achieve. The single StoP did not much except to halt the onslaught for exactly one, or at max. two turns.

Of course, that bought Time. But had that Cunning Wish been a tutor that could get me Abyss or Balance, the solutions had been more permanent. Now I decided that Burning Wish could give me exactly those 1-for-many cards I needed (Pyroclasm, Fireball) and also add Power in the control mirror (Duress, Probe).

I think that in environments where Control dominates, Cunning Wish is the better choice, whereas in Aggro-metagames (especially with a casual touch) Burning Wish might be the better choice. I'm currently playing with Burning Wish, but I might change back to Cunning Wish. In my testing, Duress and Pyroclasm have showed to be MVP's when wished up, and casting Burning Wish mainphase was never an issue. Plus, I can Wish up another (and a stylish) win condition in Fireball.

If there just would be one instant mass removal spell like Pyroclasm, I'd play Cunning Wish with glee and happiness. But because I did not find one yet, I'm torn between Burning and Cunning. So, final question: Where is the Instant Mass Removal Spell which deals 2+ damage to creatures?

Dozer

P.S.: Choices so far included Flaming Gambit (nice, but not enough), Hailstorm (double G makes it impossible), and Simoon (1 damage ain't enough). Any other ideas?

/edit:/ I found it! After skimming over the Onslaught Spoiler, I saw a card I did not notice before: Starstorm. Here it is:
Starstorm (Onslaught Rare)
XRR, Instant
Starstorm deals X damage to each creature. Cycling 3

This is somewhat what I've been looking for. The double-red in the CC should be possible to pay with me having 4 Volcanics maindeck. Although it is still not Pyroclasm, I think it will suffice. That'd mean Cunning Wish and no more thinking about it.