WW/u - Taking a closer look

[Zherbus]

Quote are 17 sources (plus Factories) really enough?

You forget Tithe. That would be 21 sources.

[psyduck]

Quote Psyduck - interesting, but I disagree. WW/u will only turn into ABM if you slip too far into aggro-control, and then the full switch takes place when you splash for power cards and cut the creature count. I'll take the principles into consideration however, and have strongly considered playing Devout Witness even before your post.  

Well, let me put it this way. NaChlv's "pre-ABM" deck ran 4 Meddling Mages, 4 Mother of Runes, and tax rack, followed by some other accessory creatures, including two Empyrial armors and Serendib Efreets. THe idea was much the same as what you are seeing going on here, but after a ton of testing (at least a year), NaChlv scrapped most creatures in favor of what ABM looks like now, especially the "weenie" horde and its friends, and I just kept the core at Mage/Witness/Enforcer.

Quote BTW - I completely agree with you on the Serendib Efreet thing, in fact I don't even run War Beasts. Psionic Blasts take the place of those creatures, and I never have regretted it. I like Standstill, but I believe I'm playing more land than you and I still struggle to get enough occasionally, are 17 sources

This is exactly what I'm talking about. When I first started playing Type 1, we all knew and played against NaChlv's WW/u deck (this was b4 Mage was printed) and the moment mage came out he looked at mage and thought it was perfect. Since then, the deck has scultped itself much around Mage (well my version at least), so im saying you're development is almost following the same path of the pre-ABM, Serendib Efreets were the big beatsticks of the deck, along with Mother of Runes and we were talking about Psi Blasts as well. But play what you want, I'm just saying your path of development was the pre-cursor to ABM. If you want more aggro and less control, I think after a point in time you will find that a 50-50 split on aggro control will be where you are headed, as you try to reduce the number of cards which get swept away in mass effects, and increase the number of backbreakers.

[NaClhv]

I think you should decide whether you want to keep tax/rack in your deck or not.  This decision will radically affect how your deck develops from this point on.

For reference, the following is the ancestor to ABM which Psyduck mentioned.

Electric Lemonade, predecessor to ABM.  Circa 2000-2001, IIRC.

The combo:
4 land tax
3 scroll rack
1 trade routes
1 zuran orb
9 total

Control:
2 force of will
2 foil
2 powder keg
2 swords to plowshare
2 back to basics
10 total

Creatures/creature enhancers:
4 meddling mage
2 devout witness
2 rootwater thief
2 mystic crusader
2 serendib efreet
2 empyrial armor
14 total

Restricted search/control/misc.
R balance
R ancestral recall
R time walk
R mystical tutor
R enlightened tutor
5 total

Mana producers
5 plains
5 island
4 tundra
2 undiscovered paradise
R library of alexandria
R black lotus
R sol ring
R mox diamond
R mox pearl
R mox sapphire
22 total

As you can see, I went through much of the same process that you're going through right now,  including card choices like meddling mages, serendib efreets, rootwater thiefs, etc.  Variations of the above deck had mother of runes as well.  Actually, while I was reading this thread, I was surprized at how similar the direction that your deck was going was to what I did two years ago.

As I said at the beginning, I think the critical point in the evolution in the deck is your decision of whether to keep tax/rack in or not.  If you decide to stick with tax/rack, and especially if you try to keep Keeper in sight as one of your "decks to beat", then I agree with psyduck that eventually you will find your deck evolving into ABM.  As you said, your strategy against keeper is to become aggro-control.  And ABM is a good deal more controllish than WW/u.

Tax/rack is the most powerful card-drawing engine in the game.  But it is also the most restictive.  It demands a heavy price for the power, as the rest of your deck must be built very specifically, so that tax-rack can be used effectively.  You can't just tack on tax/rack to WW and expect it to do wonders for you, since a typical WW deck is not designed around the difficult, restrictive requirements of tax/rack.

But if you decide not to keep tax/rack, then your deck will, of course, not end up as ABM.  From what I can tell (and correct me if I'm wrong), this is the direction that you want to take the deck, since you don't want to go too far into the aggro-control direction.  You want to keep your deck more aggro.

In this case, maybe you can afford to add some more colors?  You don't need as many basic lands, and those tundras can just as easily be cities of brass.  You might be able to add a third color.

Oh, and play devout witness!  Then maybe people will realize that it's a pretty good card in aggro-control, and stop thinking that it's janky when they see it in ABM!

[Woolly Mammoth]

//NAME: mr. toad's wild ride v1.3
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Tundra
        7 Plains
        1 Island
        1 Undiscovered Paradise
        2 Flooded Strand
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Diamond
        3 Seal of Cleansing
        3 Swords to Plowshares
        1 Ancestral Recall
        3 Land Tax
        3 Cursed Scroll
        4 Psionic Blast
        1 Time Walk
        1 Rootwater Thief
        4 Meddling Mage
        1 Order of the White Shield
        4 Soltari Priest
        4 Order of Leitbur
        4 White Knight
        4 Savannah Lions
SB:  1 Aura Fracture
SB:  1 Seal of Cleansing
SB:  3 Null Rod
SB:  3 Back to Basics
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  2 Powder Keg
SB:  1 Zuran Orb
SB:  3 Rootwater Thief

Right now I still prefer Cursed Scroll, although I admit Factories are appealing. I'd like to note that I never ran Mother of Runes because it's useless against TnT, Keeper, and Combo. I just don't like something that so often is dead. I like Cursed Scroll because it provides all the things Tax/Rack did, only it does it in a single card instead of a combo. It's also another non-creature threat, which is nice. I think Cursed Scroll is better than Standstill in this deck, but it may just be my play-style or personal preference.

Factories I like because normally I will only play 2 creatures against Keeper unless I've got a Meddling Mage on Balance (only happens after I have one on Mana Drain). Maybe I should throw Factories in the Cursed Scroll one, but it's become mana-intensive with Scrolls and Pump Knights already.

As for ABM - I'm dropping Tax/Rack because it's too flimsy. I do think I'm going in a different direction, going for aggressive creatures instead of back-breakers. I'm removing cards that don't directly do damage and replacing them with cards that do, so it seems to me I am moving away from ABM. Whether this is the right decision or not, I'm not sure. I've tested ABM and I just don't like it that much. I don't like playing Control, and ABM is a little too close for my tastes. I am not a fan of 5 color decks either... and I think WW/u has better matchups against a few popular decks than ABM, such as Suicide and TnT. I see a lot of those and very little Keeper, which I'll admit ABM is better in the Keeper matchup. Personal preference, play-style, and meta-game are all pushing me towards WW/u, so I think I'll keep going aggressive. Thanks to both Psyduck and NaClhv. Devout Witness > Aura Fracture in sideboard? The Fracture is there for Parfait, and I'm not crazy about Humility shutting down my only reusable Disenchant.  

Thanks Zherbus for the WW/u/r thought. I'm scribbling various decklists for that and I'll try to post it soon.. but the thought of forcing through a PoP against Keeper just seems so cool to me, not to mention the burn I could use.  

[Nimrod]

I have been toying with WWu.. actually, it has been more of a excuse to play In the Eye of Chaos.

In the Eye of Chaos - 2U
Enchant World
Whenever a player plays an instant spell, counter it unless its controller pays X, where X is its converted mana cost
LG-R

This not only makes counters 4cc (and pitch 5cc when pitched and 10cc when cast), but also Nullifies The Abyss (being an enchant world and that..)

Anyway, here is the decklist I have been using

//NAME: Excuse to play In the Eye of Chaos
// Drawing
        1 Time Walk
        1 Ancestral Recall
// Randomness
        1 Enlightened Tutor
        2 Seal of Cleansing
// Critters
        3 Soltari Priest
        3 Soltari Monk
        4 Savannah Lions
        4 Serendib Efreet
        4 Meddling Mage
// Own Aggro
        4 Swords to Plowshares
// Control meassures
        3 In the Eye of Chaos
        4 Orim's Chant
// Mana
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Strip Mine
        2 Wasteland
        3 Island
        4 Flooded Strand
        4 Adarkar Wastes
        4 Tundra
        5 Plains
SB:  1 In the Eye of Chaos
SB:  1 Soltari Monk
SB:  1 Soltari Priest
SB:  2 Seal of Cleansing
SB:  3 Spiritual Focus
SB:  3 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  4 Null Rod

The sideboard is COMPLETELY untweaked, though, Im eager to see how spiritual focus will work.

Soltari Monks, Meddling Mage and ItEoC help agaisnt The Abyss if needed, Chants force stuff trough and give an extra turn agaisnt aggro.

I stopped playing this deck since Im more busy testing other stuff, so it would be great to hear some feedback.

[NaClhv]

If you're going to drop the tax/rack combo (which, as I said in my first post, I think is the correct decision), then why have those 3 land taxes in the deck at all?  Especially when you have only 8 basic lands.  Playing 3 cards which could only get 8 basic lands from your deck doesn't seem too efficient.

My first thought is to add in 4 more rootwater thieves.  That way, they could be promoted to a full sub-theme of the deck of their own (and meddling mage and rootwater thief does have a strange kind of synergy).

Another thought is to replace those land taxes with weathered wayfarers (the land tax guys from onslaught).  For the purposes of getting lands to use for your land drops, they're just as good as land tax (or better, since they get nonbasics as well), and they can also swing for 1.

[Woolly Mammoth]

First of all I'd just like to thank everyone for all the help, especially Psyduck, Naclhv, and Zherbus.

To first answer some suggestions: I don't want to add more Rootwater Thieves main deck with the removal of Land Taxes because I don't have the sideboard space to be able to yank them against aggro, and I hate dead cards. I tried Weathered Wayfarer, threw in a set of Factories and a LoA to try to abuse them, and they just aren't good enough. Wayfarers don't cut it, they're easily killed and can't beatdown. Even yanking Factories from my deck isn't good enough because I usually have to wait to play them because I need less lands than my opponent. If I played maindeck Zuran Orb he might be better, but he's just not good enough.

Ideas included Teferi's Response (since I already committed to Factories - they allow me to essentially attack with 3 creatures with only 2 being vulnerable to Balance. They're also wonderful defenders against aggro), Standstill, more Pump Knights, and Tithe.

This is what I've settled on for now.

//NAME: and it was called Yellow
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Plains
        4 Flooded Strand
        4 Tundra
        1 Undiscovered Paradise
        2 Adarkar Wastes
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Diamond
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        3 Swords to Plowshares
        3 Seal of Cleansing
        1 Devout Witness
        4 Psionic Blast
        2 Rootwater Thief
        4 Meddling Mage
        4 Mishra's Factory
        1 Order of the White Shield
        4 White Knight
        4 Soltari Priest
        4 Order of Leitbur
        4 Savannah Lions
SB:  3 Null Rod
SB:  3 Back to Basics
SB:  1 Seal of Cleansing
SB:  1 Aura Fracture
SB:  1 Devout Witness
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  2 Powder Keg
SB:  1 Zuran Orb
SB:  2 Rootwater Thief

The deck is up to 32 cards that inflict damage, plus 1 Time Walk which situationally allows for extra damage as well. Factories, Thieves, and Blasts are all non-White ways of dealing damage. The only problem I see right away is Back to Basics. I'm playing more and more non-Basics myself, so I may have to find another Keeper-Hoser. In the Eye of Chaos is an interesting idea, but it's essentially just a City of Solitude. That's why I had the idea to switch the 4 Plains for 4 Plateaus and sideboard PoP over B2B.

//NAME: ww/u/r
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Plateau
        1 Plains
        4 Flooded Strand
        4 Tundra
        1 Undiscovered Paradise
        1 Adarkar Wastes
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Diamond
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        3 Swords to Plowshares
        3 Seal of Cleansing
        1 Devout Witness
        2 Psionic Blast
        4 Lightning Bolt
        1 Rootwater Thief
        4 Meddling Mage
        4 Mishra's Factory
        4 White Knight
        4 Soltari Priest
        4 Order of Leitbur
        4 Savannah Lions
SB:  3 Null Rod
SB:  3 Price of Progress
SB:  1 Seal of Cleansing
SB:  1 Aura Fracture
SB:  1 Devout Witness
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  2 Powder Keg
SB:  1 Zuran Orb
SB:  2 Rootwater Thief

That was the second pile of crap I came up with. I like the first one much better and will probably just use B2B as a Winter Orb effect to drop only when I have better board position. Hell, I could sideboard Straw Golems for all I care. As long as that slot is good against Keeper..  

[Nimrod]

Though I use In the Eye of Chaos (and WWu) for merely flavorish reasons, I will have to advocate for it because it rules so much ;D.

ItEoC not only holds counters and stops The Abyss from hitting play, but it also makes it harder for combo decks to go off (of course, by turn 3 they should have lots of mana, but its better than having some other stuff in this spot), and suddenly sligh finds itself with 4cc Incinerates.. not that I would keep them in post SB anyway..

Anyway, if I play WWu it isnt because of the power of the archtype, but rather because I like to use some of the cards, of course, thats just my personal take on it

[Ezechiel]

I might say a non-sense but...
If you main worry is Keeper, maybe you should replace the three B2B in the side board by Dustbowl.
The reasoning is pretty simple:
B2B = 3 cc = potential Mana drain target
Dustbowl slips under control and will allows you to deny one colour to Keeper. Sure, they are a bit slower, but they will allow you to increase the length of the mid-game, where you still stand a chance, versus entering in the late game where Keeper shines.

This will increase your land count when you go versus Keeper after sideboard (I would not replace a lands with Dustbowl), which is fine since you plan to sack lands.

Of course, this idea was more interesting with the Tax/Rack engine, but can still work.

Cheers,
Ezechiel

[Bastian]

I stay away for a while but I already seem to have another sucessor at ww:D

lol

Hi ppl! I have been away for a while because of college. There's always something to do and so I don't have the same time I had before to keep coming here, but I'll always will as long as I get a little free time.

I have been reading the thread and my own opinion, is, just as zherbus said: the power blue offers makes you sometimes want to play ww/u. It's really not worth it since blue doesn't pack any real threats other decks can't handle. Meddling mage and rootwater thief are easily killed and they aren't that hot vs aggro decks. And Back to basics still allows keeper to use it's lands once more. Zherbus has already been over this.

I haven't played in quite a while, and other than the onslaught sac lands I don't think there's nothing worthwhile for ww.

I once tried to make a w/u/r white weenie, but the deck became even more vulnerable. I was straying away from what I should be playing: an aggressive deck. Instead of packing threats I started packing answers. That said red is really the only color worth splashing in white weenie. Red gives you: gorilla shaman, dwarven miner, blood moon for control matches;
Direct damage vs aggro decks.

If you're playing on a lowly powered environment then I think you can easily play with a straight mono-white version of white weenie. Splash red if going vs powered decks. There's hardly anything I can add to what zherbus has already said or can add.

I think that the best white weenie deck right now should be Holly Tommy Gun. Oh... and do use a couple of burning wishes. I have loved to play the card:D

[Woolly Mammoth]

Whoa! Nice to see you Bastian, great primer.  

Anyways, I hear what you're saying but I just disagree with some of your points, and WW/u has worked really well for me. Maybe I'm just lucky, maybe I'm playing against the wrong people. I've played both HTG and WW/u extensively and I feel WW/u is better for a more diverse metagame. I'll try to list my reasons coherently, but it is 2:00 in the morning at the moment so bear with me.

Quote Red gives you: gorilla shaman, dwarven miner, blood moon for control matches; Direct damage vs aggro decks.

Blue gives me Power, Meddling Mage, Rootwater Thief, B2B, and Psionic Blast.

Gorilla Shaman vs. Meddling Mage. I'd rather have Mage here, not only will he beat down for 2 but he can name Survival of the Fittest or Goblin Welder against a deck with next to no removal like TnT. Or he can name Mana Drain against Keeper and have the opponent constantly feel tapped out. Or Balance, allowing me to play a third creature to attack with. Or Morphling to keep the pressure on. Maybe he'll name Animate Dead vs. Dragon, or Capsize vs. Academy. I'll take the Mage over the Shaman in most cases. You state the Mage isn't so hot vs. Aggro decks. Well, at least he's a 2/2 compared to the 1/1 Shaman, and he could name Keg or Masticore vs. Suicide or name Scroll vs. Sligh.

 * Rootwater Thief vs. Dwarven Miner. This one is controversial given the popularity of the Miner. Both can come down turn 1 with Moxen, but generally will see play on turn 2 and become active on turn 3. Both take mana to use each turn, and both are 1/2. The difference is in their abilities. The Thief will not only protect himself by slowly removing spot removal in the opponent's library, but will ping the opponent as well. Thief also takes one less mana to activate when no blockers are available. The Miner only protects himself by removing a land a turn, but Keeper plays 28 sources. Most of the removal that will target the Miner costs 2 mana or less, so being active on turn 3 isn't good enough. The Thief protects himself and the other creatures you play by removing answers, the Miner only removes lands with which to cast the answers, all of which cost less than 2 mana (not counting Abyss, which doesn't answer several WW creatures).

* This whole argument is for Keeper only matchups. Both Miner and Thief suck against Aggro, so that's another moot point you brought up when you said:

Quote Meddling mage and rootwater thief are easily killed and they aren't that hot vs aggro decks.

The next discussion is B2B vs. Blood Moon. Blood Moon wins, case closed. So I decided to try abusing non-basics myself. Mishra's Factories, Kjeldoran Outpost, Standstill and Teferi's Response (SB) are working out much better than B2B ever did. Uncounterable, un-Balancable, and messing up Keg mathematics while providing good offensive pressure in the midgame is very nice. I'm happy with this, and the Responses in the sideboard have been so very helpful against Dust Bowls, Miners, and Wastelands. Sure the Outpost is janky, but I wanted a 5th Factory and who doesn't love an Outpost?  

You forgot to mention REB and Jackal Pup, which I sorely miss. Once again I feel the need to point out that Pups aren't so hot against TnT or other aggro decks, just like the Thieves you seem to dislike so much.

Red Burn > Blue Burn. Lightning Bolt is so much easier to resolve and isn't a Mana Drain target, but Psionic Blast does the extra point of damage needed to kill Su-Chis and a tapped out Masticore. Besides, Psi Blast has style that Bolt has never had, so I don't find myself missing a Bolt too often.

That's pretty much my stance Bastian.. you don't have to try to match me word for word, I see your line of reasoning but I just wasn't convinced you saw mine. Either way, it's nice to hear from you on this thread.  

Zherbus - is this Extreme Vintage material yet?  

Ezechiel - Dust Bowl is bad because a single strip ruins it, and it's too slow. I'd much rather draw one of my Factories and keep the pressure on than rely on a single Dust Bowl to disrupt a deck packing 28 mana sources.

I'd like to close with my decklist, as always. Thanks for reading!

//NAME: and it was called Yellow
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Plains
        4 Flooded Strand
        4 Tundra
        1 Undiscovered Paradise
        1 Kjeldoran Outpost
        1 Adarkar Wastes
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Diamond
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        3 Swords to Plowshares
        3 Seal of Cleansing
        1 Devout Witness
        4 Psionic Blast
        2 Rootwater Thief
        4 Meddling Mage
        4 Mishra's Factory
        1 Order of the White Shield
        4 White Knight
        4 Soltari Priest
        4 Order of Leitbur
        4 Savannah Lions
SB:  3 Null Rod
SB:  2 Teferi's Response
SB:  1 Seal of Cleansing
SB:  1 Aura Fracture
SB:  1 Devout Witness
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  3 Powder Keg
SB:  1 Zuran Orb
SB:  2 Rootwater Thief

[Zherbus]

Hi Bastian, you should drop by more often if school allows.

I've been through the motions of which colors to go with for WW so many times, but I'm always happy to express my point. However, I'll do it differently this time by using your own points, Mammoth.

Quote Gorilla Shaman vs. Meddling Mage. I'd rather have Mage here, not only will he beat down for 2 but he can name Survival of the Fittest or Goblin Welder against a deck with next to no removal like TnT. Or he can name Mana Drain against Keeper and have the opponent constantly feel tapped out. Or Balance, allowing me to play a third creature to attack with. Or Morphling to keep the pressure on. Maybe he'll name Animate Dead vs. Dragon, or Capsize vs. Academy. I'll take the Mage over the Shaman in most cases. You state the Mage isn't so hot vs. Aggro decks. Well, at least he's a 2/2 compared to the 1/1 Shaman, and he could name Keg or Masticore vs. Suicide or name Scroll vs. Sligh.

Rootwater Thief vs. Dwarven Miner. This one is controversial given the popularity of the Miner. Both can come down turn 1 with Moxen, but generally will see play on turn 2 and become active on turn 3. Both take mana to use each turn, and both are 1/2. The difference is in their abilities. The Thief will not only protect himself by slowly removing spot removal in the opponent's library, but will ping the opponent as well. Thief also takes one less mana to activate when no blockers are available. The Miner only protects himself by removing a land a turn, but Keeper plays 28 sources. Most of the removal that will target the Miner costs 2 mana or less, so being active on turn 3 isn't good enough. The Thief protects himself and the other creatures you play by removing answers, the Miner only removes lands with which to cast the answers, all of which cost less than 2 mana (not counting Abyss, which doesn't answer several WW creatures).

Its really a comparison of these two factors - Rootwater Thief and Meddling Mage are situational disruption, while Shaman and Miner are generally more solid.

Rootwater Thief - Great...IF they can hit you and IF Morphling isn't in hand (or in play or graveyard).

Meddling Mage - From a Keeper players standpoint, most of the time whatever they name, I have something else in hand to get rid of it. (Often name Swords to Plowshare or Mana Drain, when Im not holding either)

Shaman - If the player is playing Moxen and Zuran Orbs. Its really just a card to work better with the Tax/Rack engine which you've abandoned. Its a cheap 1 drop, and it forces more land into play on the opponents side so you can Tax more freely.

Dwarven Miner - Against Keeper, it can go to work directly on the opponents board position. Its just as easy to kill as Thief, but comparable effect.

Quote The next discussion is B2B vs. Blood Moon. Blood Moon wins, case closed. So I decided to try abusing non-basics myself. Mishra's Factories, Kjeldoran Outpost, Standstill and Teferi's Response (SB) are working out much better than B2B ever did. Uncounterable, un-Balancable, and messing up Keg mathematics while providing good offensive pressure in the midgame is very nice. I'm happy with this, and the Responses in the sideboard have been so very helpful against Dust Bowls, Miners, and Wastelands. Sure the Outpost is janky, but I wanted a 5th Factory and who doesn't love an Outpost?  

The best way to attack Keeper is by its manabase. You cant play the card advantage game with them, you cant win counter wars, and you cant deal with its threats. The next logical solution is to attempt to cut it off from its mana.

As far as Teferi's Response goes, how do you back it up? You cant force it through with disruption or counters. You have to take someone off guard which means this:

You need to have activated a factory, using 2 of your mana, then 2 more on top of that to fund the response. All of this on YOUR turn, because you arent blocking anything.

OR

You have already had to through a land from your hand away, and you still have to have 2 mana plus the Outpost to make a dude. Then on top of that, you need 2 mana for the Response.

Thats alot of resources either way to save a factory and insure its successful.

Quote Red Burn > Blue Burn. Lightning Bolt is so much easier to resolve and isn't a Mana Drain target, but Psionic Blast does the extra point of damage needed to kill Su-Chis and a tapped out Masticore. Besides, Psi Blast has style that Bolt has never had, so I don't find myself missing a Bolt too often.

Decks that run Su-Chi shouldnt be too terrible a matchup for WW. You still have the first Strikers and the Swords.

Quote Ezechiel - Dust Bowl is bad because a single strip ruins it, and it's too slow. I'd much rather draw one of my Factories and keep the pressure on than rely on a single Dust Bowl to disrupt a deck packing 28 mana sources.

I dont know about anyone else, but in my HTG, Dust Bowl stays in my hand or gets Scroll Racked away unless I need it. Its more of an answer to LoA or whatever if I need it since my WW never wants to go into LD mode. In a non-tax/rack version like Mammoths, it would be fine just to run the standard Wastelands and Strip Mines other aggro run.

Quote Zherbus - is this Extreme Vintage material yet?  

Sure, as long as it stays about WW and not about any other archtype.

[Mr. Machine]

i may be way of base here, but i've been considering weathered wayfarer. you probobly think i'm insane now, but think about this, with five strips, the wayfarer effectevly reads:

w: if an opponent controls more land then you, destroy target land.

this could also fetch mishra's if you are creature light. also i was thinking that library of alexandrea would be an interesting trick with the wayfarer. or this could just be   tech.

just a thought.

EDIT: it seems i missed woolly mammoth's post covering weathered wayfarer. my bad. though i still feel it should be considered.

[Woolly Mammoth]

Well.. I wanted to like Wayfarer. I could get monstrously large Factories, I'd only have to play 1-2 Strips, and I could abuse LoA. The problem is, he stinks against Aggro because a 1/1 won't live too long. Against Control, he gets Fire/Iced every time, before I can use his ability. He's not sturdy enough, and you don't want to use his ability until turn 3-4-5 until you're out of steam, but he's a 1 drop - that's why he never gets to do his business. It's sad, because I really liked that guy.

I've thought about trying out Crystalline Slivers, but I'll have to get back to everyone on that. I just like untargetables, and 2/2 for 2 is the magic number for WW.

[Woolly Mammoth]

I'd like to apologize to Redman. I initially discarded the idea of Crystalline Slivers, and when I tested them the second time they turned out to be game-breakers against cards like Swords to Plowshares, Fire/Ice, and Abyss. I really like the Slivers.

Unfortunately, they mess with my mana base a bit. I'm now running 14 Blue cards main deck, and I usually will run 21 against Keeper after sideboarding. That's why the mana base is so devoted to Blue mana, even if it is supposed to be a 'splash.'

This number of Blue cards in the deck got me thinking about Pitch spells, if I could run Force of Will or Misdirection instead of perhaps Rootwater Thieves, or Psionic Blasts. I opted not to do this because I do not see many combo decks, and because that is the step where it becomes Aggro-Control, and slowly becomes ABM according to Psyduck and Nachlv. The ability to tap out and throw pitch counters is what ABM does best, but it is backed up by Tax/Rack and has many more broken cards than WW. That's the distinct difference between ABM and WW/u, is the Tax/Rack engine and pitch counters. Once you start playing those it is only a matter of time until you will want to be protecting bombs instead of White Knights with your pitch counters.

I'm trying to keep this WW/u, and I'm trying to make it as aggressive as possible. If combo is in your area, you should play Force of Will instead of the Rootwater Thieves in the sideboard.

//NAME: and it was called Yellow
        1 Strip Mine
        3 Plains
        4 Flooded Strand
        4 Tundra
        1 Undiscovered Paradise
        3 Adarkar Wastes
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Diamond
        1 Mox Sapphire
        3 Swords to Plowshares
        3 Seal of Cleansing
        1 Ancestral Recall
        4 Psionic Blast
        1 Time Walk
        4 Mishra's Factory
        4 Meddling Mage
        4 Crystalline Sliver
        4 White Knight
        4 Soltari Priest
        4 Order of Leitbur
        4 Savannah Lions
SB:  3 Null Rod
SB:  3 Back to Basics
SB:  1 Seal of Cleansing
SB:  1 Aura Fracture
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  2 Powder Keg
SB:  4 Rootwater Thief

Very straightforward now. 28 things to attack, 4 Psi Blasts, 2 Broken Blues, and 6 removal spells. The rest is mana.

Hmm.. maybe it should've stayed in the Vintage Forum.. I'm not getting as many posts now!  

[Bastian]

I'm here, I'm here! But you don't image how much college can take away. I just came to say I'm alive and well (until tomorrow that is). I'll be dropping by to comment some more about white weenie. (hey, notice on how interesting ww seems in extended right now:P)

Well, I'll be back later on!

[Rpgraccoon]

Have you considered the use of True Believer, The Ivory Mask weenie seems like it could pull his weight quite well with the inclusion of Meddling Mage it would add a great min-lock. I Personally like the Absolutes they do irritate Sligh and The Abyss. On another note back in the day people used to use Slight of Mind in WW/u what about the new one Alter Reality it could be of some use now.

Good Luck

[Woolly Mammoth]

Alter Reality sucks against your hard matchups and shines against the matchups you should normally win.

True Believer looks alright, since it takes away Mind Twist and Edicts from Keeper, and really is a beating against Suicide and Void. It's just a matter of what creature you would rather have most of the time, the Believer or the Rootwater Thief. I like the Thief because it can be really devastating against Keeper or Combo if it is given the time. Believer is probably just as good against combo, but has the nasty habit of being Capsized (thanks to Cunning Wish) when it matters most. While the Believer could be sitting there for three turns serving for 6 damage, the Thief would've removed three victory conditions in that amount of time, or at least put a ton more pressure on the combo deck to go off sooner than it'd like. Against Keeper the Thief is obviously a bigger threat. Suicide and Void are the only matchups that the Believer is significantly better in, and I don't see that as enough. With 8 pro: black critters, 4 Psionic Blasts and StP, first strikers, Meddling Mage.. I don't see it as a bad matchup unless they get a large amount of hand or land destruction and just 1 threat. If they double Hymn on turn two, yes I will probably lose. If they go first, True Believer won't even help me there since he'd be a turn too late. The only things I fear in this matchup are things the Believer can't even stop consistently - early game Hymns/Sinks in multiples.

The Absolutes are not threats in and of themselves.. and that's why I have not included them. I'm not scared of The Abyss whatsoever. In fact, I usually side out a Seal or two against Keeper unless I expect Moat. The list of creatures unaffected by The Abyss:

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 White Knight
4 Order of Leitbur

I could even argue that Psionic Blast is unaffected by it as well. Even if I don't count the Blasts, over 50% of my damage sources scoff at the Abyss.

That said... where is Bastian!  

[Bastian]

I think that ww with a splash of blue is really just viable in extended. After all, what do we gain from splashing blue into white weenie, in type 1?

Ancestral Recall and Time Walk are luring cards and the main reason so many find themselves splashing blue into white weenie, along with meddling mage. Although the mage is a good card vs combo and control, it's not that much vs other aggro decks. It dies easily to the abyss and targeted removal.

Rootwater thief takes a whole turn to start being useful while something like True Believer not only hits for one more point of damage than Rootwater Thief, but its ability kicks in the moment it's dropped into play (a single point of damage can make a huge diferente between winning and losing when you're playing aggro). So, I would rather be playing the cleric rather than the merfolk. Sure the folk can take out both morplings from keeper, which is pretty good, it can also take out combo pieces out of a combo deck, but it's a bit too slow.

The moment I drop true believer I'm immune vs direct damage, edicts, targeted discard spells... Its ability is far more versatile than that of the thief's. And from playing it in extended, (although a different format) I'm more willing to give True Believer a try.

Mishra's factories are lands that you won't be playing right on the start because you want to drop a couple of lands capable of producing white mana during your first two turns, so you can go something like: turn 1: plains, lions, turn 2: plains, knight. A factory on your opening hand instead of a plains means that you're delayed by one turn. Another thing to remember is that wastelands and a single factory doesn't have enough toughness to withstand the damage from a bolt or whatever: it's very easily destroyed.

That said I wouldn't pack factories in white weenie.

Crystalline Slivers can't be destroyed by direct damage or abyss, and they can't be pinged by masticore, but other than that how good are they really? Masticore can still block them, just as a red weenie can. A jackal pup, goblin patrol, etc can easily kill the sliver. The crystalline sliver tries to have protection from many things at the same time without accomplishing efficiently neither of those things. It really isn't pro: red, and it's really not pro: black either.. It's not like if this is going to stop a 5/4 Nantuko Shade on its tracks, now is it?

Here's what I would possibly do from your deck:

       1 Strip Mine
       5 Plains
       4 Flooded Strand
       4 Tundra
       3 Wasteland
       1 Undiscovered Paradise
       3 Adarkar Wastes

       1 Black Lotus
       1 Mox Pearl
       1 Mox Diamond

       3 Swords to Plowshares
       3 Seal of Cleansing

       1 Ancestral Recall
       4 Brainstorm <-- psionic blast? Brainstorm?
       1 Time Walk

       4 True Believer
       4 Meddling Mage
       4 Order of Leitbur
       4 Savannah Lions
       4 Soltari Priest
       4 White Knight

SB:  3 Null Rod
SB:  3 Back to Basics
SB:  1 Seal of Cleansing
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  3 Powder Keg
SB:  4

It's still sketchy but then again, I really don't like splashing blue when I feel that red can help so much more;)

White Weenie is an aggro deck and that's what's there to be taken into account when building it: it's aggro, it's meant to kill the opponent through damage, as fast as possible.
Blue doesn't help at that. So I think that an optimal version of white weenie should be splashing red.

[Woolly Mammoth]

Well.. I think we're both biased here.

Basic objections - Meddling Mage is only mediocre against most Aggro decks, but naming Welder or Survival against TnT really is amazing. HTG runs Pups, Miners, and Shamans - they aren't too hot against Aggro either.

Factories - I didn't put them in as mana sources, spells came out to make room for them. Yes, they are slow. Yes, they are Waste-able. But they dodge The Abyss and most importantly, Balance. Factories allow me to attack with 3 creatures without fear of Balance, Keg, whatever. I'm running a complete land count plus Factories, so I almost never have a situation with a Factory and a Plains, unable to cast half my hand. If I do, I should've mulliganed because I'm playing close to 20 sources of White (too lazy to count right now). Generally, I drop the Factory on turn 3 while I cast my second creature with the first two lands. Next turn I attack for 6 instead of 4. It's another mana sink. It is more non-White damage. It is a 3/3 blocker if I want to kill Phids/Juggs in a pinch. My only other consideration would be running Soltari Monks - for their ability to attack around Morphling and be immune to The Abyss. The Crystalline Slivers might come out for these sadly, more because of the mana base than the performance of the Slivers. I like untargetability, but without evasion or counterspells it's not as good as it can be. Evasion is too important to run the Slivers, at least against Control.

I think you're wrong when you say Blue can't help WW be aggressive. Time Walk is very aggressive when you have 2 weenies and a Factory to attack with. Psionic Blast may be tougher to resolve than a Lightning Bolt, but the extra point of damage comes in handy a few times. Meddling Mage can disrupt and serve for 2, while a Miner can't. Mage is also superior to the Miner against Combo, and against TnT (which isn't a bad matchup, but every little bit helps).

I'll test Rootwater Thief vs. True Believer. I will take your word that it is good in extended, but aside from Combo/Suicide wouldn't it be mostly dead? It's a speedbump for Sligh, Control usually won't go for a Mind Twist, they'll just let me empty my hand of my own accord. Since it is a sideboarded slot, I need to consider what I'm weakest against. In my opinion, I'd rather have a Thief than a Believer against Keeper, and the Thief isn't as bad as you'd expect versus Combo. If I were to maindeck a creature I would play Believer over the Thief - but this is a sideboard decision. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Zherbus]

Quote I think you're wrong when you say Blue can't help WW be aggressive. Time Walk is very aggressive when you have 2 weenies and a Factory to attack with. Psionic Blast may be tougher to resolve than a Lightning Bolt, but the extra point of damage comes in handy a few times. Meddling Mage can disrupt and serve for 2, while a Miner can't. Mage is also superior to the Miner against Combo, and against TnT (which isn't a bad matchup, but every little bit helps).

Time Walk unrestricted would fit in ANY aggro deck, however it is only one card. Psionic Blast is a good Mana Drain or Misdirection target to begin with, not to mention that helps Sligh against you. Meddling Mages disruption is far inferior to that of Miner, ask any Keeper player.

Quote HTG runs Pups, Miners, and Shamans

It doesn't run Miners, as its a land tax deck. Outside of that, 5 creatures (3 Shamans, 2 Pups) are all it runs against aggro. Shamans are never bad, as they trade with many of opposing aggros creatures. There are only 2 Pups, which is just to give Lions some friends in the 1cc slot. Either way, against aggro, dead cards just get Scroll Racked away.

[FeverDog]

@Zherbus
Has there been any changes to your version of HTG lately? If this post is about WW in general then maybe you could post your own version for comparison?

[Woolly Mammoth]

Zherbus - are you speaking in the past or present tense? Current Keeper builds with fetchlands and only 4 colors are a lot tougher to mana-screw. Mages aren't as scary against Keeper as Miners are, but against a wider spectrum of decks it is superior. I feel it is folly to play lots of cards that attack the mana base of Keeper when the mana base is as strong as it has ever been.

[Zherbus]

Quote Zherbus - are you speaking in the past or present tense? Current Keeper builds with fetchlands and only 4 colors are a lot tougher to mana-screw. Mages aren't as scary against Keeper as Miners are, but against a wider spectrum of decks it is superior. I feel it is folly to play lots of cards that attack the mana base of Keeper when the mana base is as strong as it has ever been.

Present tense. Miners are still good against Keeper, but its kinda pointless for me to discuss them since HTG never ran them and never will. Even so, Resolved and unmolested Miners will give Keeper more problems than a Meddling Mage.

Quote @Zherbus
Has there been any changes to your version of HTG lately? If this post is about WW in general then maybe you could post your own version for comparison?

Certainly, here.

[Bastian]

My WW/r deck used miners and I can say that they weren't just good vs Keeper... If you manage to play a miner vs a non-basic lands deck you can cripple your opponent in more ways than I could if I was using Meddling Mage. Of course this is just me...

[Woolly Mammoth]

Quote Mages aren't as scary against Keeper as Miners are, but against a wider spectrum of decks it is superior.

I'm not trying to argue the merits of Mage over Miner. I'm comparing the two because it has been brought up that Meddling Mage isn't too hot against Aggro, but neither is the Miner. The Miner's only good matchup seems to be Keeper, and Keeper's manabase is as strong as it has ever been. I love playing with the Mage against Suicide/Void, Combo, and TnT. Miner is a lot worse against Aggro than the Mage, and he is only good against Keeper.

This is the decklist I have been using lately.

//NAME: yellow
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Plains
        4 Flooded Strand
        4 Tundra
        1 Undiscovered Paradise
        2 Adarkar Wastes
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Diamond
        1 Mox Sapphire
        3 Seal of Cleansing
        3 Swords to Plowshares
        4 Psionic Blast
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        4 Mishra's Factory
        4 Soltari Monk
        4 Meddling Mage
        4 White Knight
        4 Soltari Priest
        4 Order of Leitbur
        4 Savannah Lions
SB:  3 Null Rod
SB:  3 Back to Basics
SB:  1 Seal of Cleansing
SB:  1 Aura Fracture
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  2 Powder Keg
SB:  4 Rootwater Thief

[Bastian]

The miner isn't quite that bad. Remember the funker? The deck that was acclaimed as the best aggro deck around before TNT appeared? An active miner has won me more than one match vs the funker because of being able to wreck their mana base.

[Zherbus]

Quote I'm not trying to argue the merits of Mage over Miner. I'm comparing the two because it has been brought up that Meddling Mage isn't too hot against Aggro, but neither is the Miner. The Miner's only good matchup seems to be Keeper, and Keeper's manabase is as strong as it has ever been. I love playing with the Mage against Suicide/Void, Combo, and TnT. Miner is a lot worse against Aggro than the Mage, and he is only good against Keeper.

Honestly, are you having troubles with WW versus aggro? When has WW had problems with Suicide, Void, or TnT? I don't see much of a use for meddling mage against combo since I don't see it making much of a difference when most of them run Capsize.

[Woolly Mammoth]

I just don't like playing with dead cards, especially in an aggressive deck. WW/u has been winning for me both online and at tournaments, whereas when I try HTG or a different WW/r decklist online it just doesn't work out. I think there are a few differences.

The first is that with Jackal Pups, I need red mana on the first turn. I don't always get it. While it is a subtle difference, there are no blue spells worth playing turn 1 without a Mox, but WW/r really likes red mana on the first turn. It also seems to be more reliant on Tax/Rack. The deck is amazing when it has an active Tax/Rack, but what deck wouldn't be? The problem for me is getting it set up and going, it just doesn't happen enough. Drawing just a Scroll Rack isn't that helpful in an aggressive deck, and I soon get the same problems as Brainstorm (without the shuffling effects). Perhaps a fetchland or two would help increase the number of shufflers without Land Tax, but I hate drawing Scroll Rack first. The rest of the things I don't like are HTG specific and all a matter of personal preference, so I won't bother to go into them here, this isn't the right place to do that.

Basically, WW/r is more dependant on the color and is dependant (to an extent) on a combo that is fairly easily stopped or stalled. Without Tax/Rack it is running a fairly low creature count, but with it everything is fine. Without Tax/Rack it doesn't have an awful lot of pressure, but with it the deck works fine. These dependencies are what keep me with WW/u. While the deck looks slower, it is deceptively fast and packs a lot of flexible removal and a lot of threats.

I'd also like to thank everyone who has posted here, all the help is greatly appreciated and the final result is one I'm quite happy with. Thanks especially to Zherbus and Bastian.  

[Zherbus]

I want to straighten up a few things here:

Quote The first is that with Jackal Pups, I need red mana on the first turn. I don't always get it. While it is a subtle difference, there are no blue spells worth playing turn 1 without a Mox, but WW/r really likes red mana on the first turn. It also seems to be more reliant on Tax/Rack.

Just to clarify, its generally a rarity to want to play something like that on turn 1. Its going to be on a typical basis, a Land Tax or a Savannah Lion. The lowering of the manacurve in HTG is just to use Tax/Rack better. If the Tax/Rack doesn't become active (which is the case against control) you still have a decent weenie deck that can make use of individual combo pieces.

Quote Basically, WW/r is more dependant on the color and is dependant (to an extent) on a combo that is fairly easily stopped or stalled. Without Tax/Rack it is running a fairly low creature count, but with it everything is fine. Without Tax/Rack it doesn't have an awful lot of pressure, but with it the deck works fine. These dependencies are what keep me with WW/u. While the deck looks slower, it is deceptively fast and packs a lot of flexible removal and a lot of threats.

HTG runs 20 creatures, I wouldn't consider that a low creature count.  I don't see HTG as having a dependancy on Tax/Rack as much as it just makes good use of it. In fact, in any control match its almost guarenteed not to get out since Scroll Rack is such a must counter. Beyond that, its low curve in comparison just functions better against decks with Mana Drain.

Quote I'd also like to thank everyone who has posted here, all the help is greatly appreciated and the final result is one I'm quite happy with. Thanks especially to Zherbus and Bastian.  

I am glad you have a version that you are content with, and if it's working for you then great. While I disagree with blue, if it's not broken then don't fix it.