Ankh Sligh Discussion

[dandan]

I advocated Guerrilla Tactics for a long time but I don't even run them SB now. Here is why:

1. That extra point of damage than Incinerate does can make all the difference.
2. You can't rely on Suicide making you discard them, the early Duress will give your game away.
3. Tactics make using Cursed Scroll properly more difficult
4. You should beat Suicide Black decks that are geared to beat each other and or control. Games 2 and 3 are tough but you should get one out of the two.
5. You need to use your SB to beat TnT, Control and if you fancy hard work, battling combo.
6. Cursed Scroll will let your opponent know that you are holding Tactics.

Against all this you do gain the following benefits in addition to bonuses against Suicide:
1. Tactics trigger off Wheel of Fortune and Windfall so matchups with Zoo and Academy improve (in fact this is almost the only way you should win vs Academy)
2. Keeper likes to Mind Twist a Sligh player assuming that REBs were from the SB
3. Balance can make you discard
(4) Maybe some scrub will fling a Chain of Plasma at you

They are not bad but, simply, other stuff is better. Sligh needs to be the consistent deck and leave tricks to the other guy.

[Zharradan]

Has anyone considered Mogg Sentry?
He seems like he'd fit quite well into this deck, turning your bolts into pump.

[Os-Vegeta]

Quote Has anyone considered Mogg Sentry?
He seems like he'd fit quite well into this deck, turning your bolts into pump

This may sound good on paper, but it seems risky as your opponent may play a spell (like Fire/Ice) that removes your Sentry along with other creatures.  In addition to this, your opponent won't always play spells on your turn, and if he does play spells (other than counterspells, which I am assuming are what you believe will turn your bolts into pump), they are usually played at the end of turn anyway.

(Edits were made to this post, as I originally misread the card.  Thanks Dan_Hellspawn for clarifying the right card!     )

[dan_hellspawn]

You are thinking of the wrong card I believe, or i'm misunderstanding you.

Mogg Sentry gets the bonus if an OPPONENT casts a spell. In this case, he'll wait til end of turn to cast things when sentry has already attacked.

He is too conditional to be in Sligh, and that is why he doesn't see play.

For reference:

Mogg Sentry
Color= Red  Type= Creature - Goblin  Cost= R PS®  
Text (PS): 1/1. ; Whenever an opponent plays a spell, ~this~ gets +2/+2 until end of turn.

[the Luke]

I rethought Browbeat. While I still think it is good when you're not worried about Countermagic, it is a losing thought to think I'm not going to play against counters. I already have 4 Bridge and 4 Pyrokinesis in board... (and a deck full of burn!) That is enough. I think I'm going to sideboard red elemental blast. It gives you more of a chance versus any deck with counters, and lots of combo decks. From playing Ankh-sligh, I know that it is a very controlling sort of build, so adding the extra control should prove very useful.

[Milton]

The best anti-blue card is Scald.  Nothing compares.  

Mono-blue, with it's impressive array of Powder Kegs and Misdirections usually can't stand up to an early Scald.  

My board would look like this:

4 Pyrokenesis
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Scald
4 Bottle Gnomes (or Tormod's Crypt, I haven't made up my mind)

-Against Sligh -
Out:
4 Pups
4 Price of Progress

In:
4 Pyrokenesis
4 Bottle Gnomes

-Against Keeper -
Out:
4 Pups

In:
4 Scald

-Against Mono Blue -
Out:
4 Price of Progress

In:
4 Scald

-Against TnT -
Out:
4 Pups
4 Cadets
1 Black Vise

In:
4 Pyrokenesis
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Bottle Gnome

-Against Zooish Aggro -
Out:
4 Pups
4 Cadets
3 PoP (depending on deck)

In:
4 Pyrokenisis
4 Bottle Gnomes
3 Bridge (depending)

-Suicide -  
Out:
3 Pups
4 Cadets
4 Price of Progress

In:
4 Bottle Gnomes
4 Pyroknesis
3 Bridge

Mask and other decks are really a non-factor for me.

I'm torn between Bottle Gnomes and Tormod's Crypt in the board, though.  It will probabally be a game day decision.

Rack and Ruin is great too, but it's not for me.

[cooberp]

Legend, I think you should play Blistering Firecat in the Blastminer slot just once to fuck with people's heads.  I bet they'd get below 7 life.  How funny would that be?  Remember, little kid janky cards are only bad if your opponent has any idea they may be coming.\n\n

[Legend]

Anybody who plays Blistering Firecat in Vintage deserves to be horribly maimed by numerous enraged Bolivian silver miners armed with inflatable pool furniture.

[the Luke]

I played some real life ankh-sligh matchups today against Gro. (only about 6-7 sideboarded. A couple unsideboarded) I was owned, really really horribly. The only chance I seemed to have was ensnaring bridge, and it didn't really do anything at all.
Ankh should have been good, but I couldn't get it on the board. :-/

The sideboard I was running was:
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt

I tried siding in all but the Crypt.

Out:
Jackal Pups
Goblin Cadets
Chain Lightnings (MISTAKE! I should have sided out PoP...)

I still got owned. Even sitting behind the Bridge, I was too scared to burn him because of the Misdirections. One game he dealt me 9 damage with my own bolts.   I couldn't get an Ankh in play, though I know these would have helped. The werebears and dryads were just too big to burn...

Come to think of it, I think Scald could really help in this matchup. I might try them out instead of of REB. They are hard for mono-blue+gro to deal with, as enchantments. I'm not sure if Sligh is viable in my metagame, though. :-/

Legend, what would you side against Gro?

I'm really thinking of going back to my Legend Black build

[TunaBoo]

Gro has naturalize for scalds... that is so  

What forum is this again? STOP posting like this in here.

-Zherbus

[LimDul]

@ TunaBoo: the Luke didn't run any scalds in his board......


@ the Luke: When I was testing with Ankh Sligh, I had the same problems with Grow, using the same board as you, except for the bridges were Rack and Ruins. As I was playing vs. a version that was splashing white for Meddling mages, a lot of searchlands were showing up, too. I found that it was absolutely crucial to force an Ankh through his counterwall to stand a chance. Most of the time 1 to 2 REBs did the job....you simply need to continually present them threats to deal with. If they do counter or misdirect your REB, though, you might be able to  resolve a bolt or two without them getting misdirected, which should clean you up the table a bit....However, Grow is a tough matchup indeed. I think I went something like 7-16 vs it.

Edit: I nearly forgot to say this: Pyrokinesises really shine in this matchup, since the can't get misdirected! Have him use his counters on your Ankh, Scroll, whatever.....than kill his guys with pyro and have your guys swing.....works quite well    Also: I wouldn't side out PoP, since it is unmisdirectable, too.

[Milton]

And I wouldn't side-out creatures against Grow either.  Pups and Cadets can put him on an early clock.  If anything, I would side out the Shaman for Scald and if I really needed the Pyrokenesises I would side out the Price of Progress (he can Gush to avoid damage anyway).

[Legend]

@The Luke


I am not playing Bridges currently, as I am not thrilled with them against a lot of the current big decks. I am also not playing Red Blasts. But I can tell you what I would do against Gro with my current sideboard. Just as Milton said, I too think it was a mistake to side out the early 2/1 creatures, they are almost never sided out. That early bit of pressure is so important to this deck's success. So I would agree with what Milton is saying. Also, as you noted, you wouldn't want to side out Chain Lightnings either next time.

So here is my board right now:

4 Pyrokinesis
4 Scald (Several people have convinced me to
            use this instead of Miner on a permanent basis)

4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Rack and Ruin


I would do this: -4 Gorilla Shaman, -4 Price of Progress
                      +4 Scald, +4 Pyrokinesis\n\n

[Fishhead]

Quote But I can tell you what I would do against Gro with my current sideboard.

My guess would be that Gro is a horrible matchup for Ankh Sligh.  (As a matter of fact, I playtested some decks against a Gro variant yesterday and didnt bother to bring out Ankh Sligh as I figured that the matchup was pretty hopeless.)

Whats your feeling about this matchup and/or the mid-range aggro matchup in general?  It seems that Ankh Sligh gives up some speed in order to gain long term options (Ankh, Scroll) against control decks.  But, I certainly wasnt happy to realize that I was facing fatter G creatures like Calls once I got to the midgame against RG Zoo.  Dryad is intended to be a nightmare for opposing aggro decks, so I see an even worse situation here, especially after you combine it with Gro's more effective control elements.

[FeverDog]

I have to say that Ankh Sligh always scared me when i play Gro. Ankh is a really big pain in the ass, it makes Gush pretty bad. I think the matchup is winnable for Sligh, but its definetly an uphill fight, resolving an Ankh will help a lot.

Legend is correct about the sb, as a Gro player, i would love to see you sb out your Pups and Cadets because you then have almost no way to put pressure on me early. Remember, the Gro player isnt always holding a Dryad, and he has to reach Threshold before he plays a Werebear so take advantage of those facts.

[Legend]

In think the Gro versus Ankh Sligh matchup is a real fight, it could go either way. The builds vary, but I think I once saw FeverDog's Gro build in the Vintage Mill. It looked strong against Sligh, and strong in general.

[FeverDog]

Thank you Legend, at least i know one other person who thinks my version is good  

My version obviously has an edge over most Gro variants in the Sligh matchup because i run 4 Kegs main, and we all know how good those are. I also dont run Phids, which are nothing more than target practice for Sligh.

[dicemanX]

My apologies for backtracking a bit.

Quote And, of course, if you do somehow manage to resolve an ankh before dragon goes off, that's gonna cause them some problems, possibly giving you time to win.

Quote Correct, but I believe they can get around the Ankh by going off during my turn with Necromancy.

That's correct. However, Necromancies are not always run by Dragon players. That extra mana does make a difference from time to time against control, especially in a mana-light deck like Dragon and if you have disruption you'd like to cast as back-up. I personally like to play Verdant Force MD myself, which will work just fine as a plan "B" if Ankh resolves. Running Phantom Nishoba is the other option. Many Dragon players don't do this though. Still, if enough Ankh Sligh decks start popping up, you're probably going to see more Necromancies.

I do fear the combo of Tormod's Crypt + Ankh post board in any case, even though I seem to be one of the few people running Kegs in the SB. Therefore, I don't think that Ankh Sligh will always auto-lose against Dragon decks in general.

Quote  play Crypts because they're good against Dragon (which has been taking out tournaments where I am), and they can take out random reanimator jank decks.

In:
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Tormod's Crypt

I don't know if Pyrokinesis is that great. The SB plan gives Dragon more time to set up, as you will be removing your burn/creatures to accomodate these cards. Pyros don't do much without Bolts as back-up, and even then its over if Dance of the Dead is used by Dragon as the Animate spell (remember, it gives a +1/+1 boost...). The Pyros might seem OK against the Verdant plan too, but if you are wasting yet another TWO damage sources on a creature (the bolt plus whatever you pitch to Pyro), the Dragon deck will have even more time to just find another animate card.

I think Legend is still right though - Crypts don't do enough vs TnT in Ankh Sligh, so unless your meta is Dragon heavy the Crypts might not be entirely worth it.

[Legend]

@dicemanX

Thanks for the insightful comments. I agree with your balanced thoughts on the Ankh Sligh versus Worldgorger matchup.

When The Luke suggested siding in Pyrokinesis against Worldgorger, I gave it some thought, but after playing some games at a local store yesterday, I realized that the tactic is pointless, especially since Dance of the Dead puts Worldgorger hopelessly out of range. Besides that fact, though, it is just not realistic to think that you will be given the opportunity to pull off such a stunt.


With this in mind, I don't plan on making any significant sideboarding changes if I face Worldgorger. I'll just stick with what I have and mulligan aggressively for an Ankh, as that is the only hope in this wretched matchup. Ankh is certainly good in the Gorger matchup, because as you noted, Necromancy is not widely used right now. But still, while a resolved Ankh does give me some hope, the Gorger deck can still win before an Ankh comes out, take it out of my hand before I can cast it, or get around it wit a Verdant Force. The only reason I was able to win a couple of games yesterday was because my opponent had neither Verdant Force or Necromancy. Just as a brief aside, many people think that Phantom Nishoba is better against Sligh than is Verdant Force, but Verdant Force is pretty much just as bad for me. Therefore, I think that Nishoba isn't even worth wasting a SB or MD slot on, since Force is better against a lot of other decks, and basically comparable in its impact against Sligh.

Perhaps I would side in Mogg Fanatics for the Cursed Scrolls, just to speed up the assault slightly in case the Dragon player stumbles a bit, but other than that, there is just not a whole hell of a lot I can do as the Sligh player, because I will almost always not run Tormod's Crypts. Really it all comes down to what THEY do, not anything I do. If the Worldgorger player gets a decent hand, they are going to win. If by some miracle I don't get comboed out right away, hopefully I would be able to take advantage. But the likelihood of this happening the required two times in one match is very slim.

As you mentioned, the Crypt's use is very narrow, and I almost never see Dragon decks at Neutral Ground, or anywhere else locally. I said this earlier, and I'll say it again: I have no problem just outright conceding a matchup by ignoring it and focusing my sideboard on the toss-up matches, where a difference can be made in my performance. This means focusing on control decks and other aggro decks. At a larger tournament, I would most likely take the same approach and hope that the presence of other decks that CAN beat Dragon would keep the deck's numbers down.\n\n

[dicemanX]

This might be pushing the mana curve a bit, but what about another approach to fighting Dragon/ + a few other multicolor combo/control decks (Academy, Keeper etc):Blood Moon?

Moons would be easier to support with Lotus/Ruby main, and even Sol Ring (!). I'm wondering if Sol Rings wouldn't be worth it in Ankh Sligh to begin with, as they power Scrolls and sometimes the Shamans, get you first turn Ankhs, and even provide the colorless cost on a few other spells. There's such little R requirement in the deck that perhaps its worth sacrificing a Mountain for some colorless acceleration? Also, I know that the issue of Ruby + Lotus has been covered, but in light of Moons perhaps they deserve a second look?

[Dave Kaplan]

Sol Ring is probably even worse than Black Lotus. There are very few times you need 2 colorless mana, only Wheel, Scroll, Ankh, sometimes Mox Monkey. Justifying Blood Moon against a COMBO DECK because you have A mana accelerator is not an option.\n\n

[Legend]

@dicemanX

Well, I am definitely in favor of Mox Ruby in Ankh Sligh, and I would play one IRL if I owned it. I've of course included the Ruby in my TMD Invitational list.

I've thought about Sol Ring, but beyond casting early Ankhs, it is weak. I don't want the deck to become too dependent on the Ankhs by altering the manabase. By the time you are ready to start Scrolling, you won't need a Ring to operate it. Gorilla Shaman's main purpose is to smash artifact mana, or opposing Scrolls, and for munching said artifacts, Sol Ring is not of any help.

I don't like Black Lotus in Ankh Sligh either, because it is just not terribly exciting given the casting cost of two or less for every single card in the deck. I find myself preferring the permanence and stability of another Mountain.

Finally, I wouldn't include Blood Moon anyway, because at three mana, it is too slow to deal with combo decks, besides being fairly marginal in general.\n\n

[TunaBoo]

Legend: No lotus? It is pretty insane first turn to drop piledriver, lacky, pup or something. I think if you have one sitting around, it is one of those must haves (even though 90% of sligh players don't use it, 90% of sligh players also don't own power).

Think, if you get a pup and a piledriver out a turn eariler than normal, your next turn attack will yield 3-5 more damage than normal. Isn't a 0 CC artifact that gives you 5 damage for free (+ helps stuff get by counters) a good thing?

[Legend]

We're talking about Ankh Sligh here, not Red Stompy. The two decks are completely different.

[FeverDog]

@Tunaboo
This thread is disussing Ankh Sligh, not Goblin Sligh. Ankh Sligh does not run Piledrivers.

@Legend
I totally understand your point about Lotus, i have felt that way for a long time. However, i am currently testing it in the deck because of how good it is with Ankh. Also, post-sb, you have 4 Ankh + 4 Scald so Lotus looks a little better.

About Fork, i understand the card's potential, but having tried it in Sligh i cant say i love it. If you were to cut it from your deck, what card would you consider as a replacement?

[ScaldMonger]

Although I have already tested the deck with the lotus and seen the deck play without the lotus as well, im still stickin with Tuna. I like the lotus, but its possible to change my mind, Legend has already proved me wrong on 2 cards in the deck. More playtesting I believe is the only answer. Fork isn't worth cutting in my opinion. Although it got countered I think everytime I played it, I believe its still good. It almost copied 2 ancestrals, stroke for 4 and i think a bolt or some other burn.

[Legend]

@FeverDog

Its hard to imagine ever playing without Fork. I can't even think of anything else I'd have to replace it, just because I have become so accustomed to its general usefulness.

@FeverDog & Scaldmonger

On Black Lotus: I really want to have those seventeen permanent sources of red mana. I don't want to cut even a single Mountain for a Lotus. There just isn't all that much to do with the Lotus. The only two mana permanent in the entire deck is Ankh of Mishra. I can't get all that excited about Lotus in Ankh Sligh without any higher CC stuff to explode into play. I prefer a simple basic Mountain over Lotus. I just find the deck to be at its best when the only artifact mana is Mox Ruby. If the price is right, I'd consider reacquiring the Ruby at some point in the near future. BTW, Scaldmonger, I'm glad we had that little demonstration of why Mox Diamond sucks yesterday.\n\n

[ScaldMonger]

LOL not only the diamond, but the lack of Scroll too. I wanna play some more games and see if the lotus really isnt helpful, or the other way, if that extra mountain is REALLY that helpful.

[JBay]

So what is the verdict on grim lavamancer? is it usable in ankh sligh or in sligh at all?

[Legend]

The verdict on Grim Lavamancer is that it has absolutely no place in Ankh Sligh. I also happen to believe that it has no place in Vintage Sligh, period.