Impulse Keeper II

[Freddie]

Although I have brought up the subject of, Impulse in keeper, before:

My old Impulse Keeper thread.

I started the discussion way back in June, and it was last posted to, sometime last September.

Newer cards, the growing concern with fast aggro, the need for diverse answers for diverse metagames (and finding those answers quickly), and finally with my disagreements with the Paragon Keeper builds (after playtesting those builds) has urged me to revitialize this disscusion, with additional weight added to the use of Impulse of keeper.

I am just not buying the keeper builds that I see posted everywere.

Although I agree that the majority of the keeper decks posted around here look like fine decks, and will sometimes run like clock work, allowing the keeper player to find answers with its few tutors and use a few draw magic spells to get to the removal it needs... In my expierence, they just don't CONSISTANTLY find the answers to the problems put to them round after round after round in a large grinding tournament, they can't.

Because, no matter how expierenced you could ever be, no matter how skilled you can ever be sometimes the deck just craps on you.

You cannot be so skilled, that you just draw the answers that you need to all of the time.

Impulse increases consistancy and redundancey of this swiss army knife of decks.

I just don't see how alot of these keeper decks get away with these builds. I must just be living in a different universe then all of these other keeoer players, but I don't just top deck the spells that I need all of the time, I utilize fast, cheap, and effective draw / tutor spells to get me to what I need, so that I can win the game.
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Here is my current keeper decklist:

Blue: (22)
Morphling: 1
Power Artifact: 1

Mana Drain: 4
Force Of Will: 4
Counter Spell / Future Sight: 1
Misdirection: 1

Impulse: 4
Ancestral Recall: R
Time Walk: R
Mystical Tutor: R
Fact Or Fiction: R
Stroke Of Genius: R
Brain Geyser: R

Black: (4)
Demonic Tutor: R
Vampiric Tutor: R
Mind Twist: R
Yawgmoth's Will: R

White: (4)
Balance: R
Swords To Plowshares: 2
Dismanteling Blow: 1

Red: (1)
Fireball: 1

Artifact: (1)
Zuran Orb: 1

Mana: (28)
Black Lotus: R
Sol Ring: R
Mox Sapphire: R
Mox Jet: R
Mox Pearl: R
Mox Ruby: R
Mox Emerald: R
Grim Monolith: R
Library Of Alexandria: R
Tolarian Academy: R
Stripmine: R
Wasteland: 1
Dust Bowl: 1
City Of Brass: 2
Polluted Delta: 4
Underground Sea: 3
Tundra: 3
Volcanic Island: 3

Sideboard: (15)
Red Elemental Blast: 4
Blue Elemental Blast: 1
Misdirection: 3
Chainer's Edict: 1
Timetwister: R
Wheel of Fortune: R
Enlightened Tutor: R
Circle or Protection Red: 1
Aura Fracture: 1
Tormod's Crypt: 1
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I have heard and seen alot of arguments against using impulse in keeper over the last few years.

Here are some counter arguments and points about what impulse does when I play with it, some of the many reasons that I feel that Impulse IS, or SHOULD be the backbone of "The Deck".

1. Sending good late game cards to the bottom of your deck, is less of a draw back or concern with the new shuffle effects of the fetchlands. Total in this decklist there are 7 shuffel effects, with out using Yawgwill to recurse any of them.

2. Even in the control matchup, keeping a hand of 1 blue producing mana source (even if it doesn't match the color needed for the rest of your hand), and 1 off color mox, is not an auto mulligan because if you have an impulse in that same hand, you should be able to hit a mana source in the next 4 cards from the impulse and the 5th card from your draw step.

In adddition to bolstering / fixing your hand, it also allows to you find strips, especially since most keeper decklists have decreased their land destruction elements.

3. With the growing concern of fast aggro threats, (especially those with keeper hate built right in) finding the needed cards WHEN you NEED them, ASAP, skimming your deck, at instant speed has become invaluible. Stitching together other draw magic and tutors, to find "---X---" is incredibly powerful!

4. Impulse makes topdecking much more effective. After exhausting the resources of your hand, topdecking an impulse, will immediately give you options that you would have drawn into anyway, but that would have been several turns away, and could have been just out of reach to save your life, if it had not been for the impulse.

Mana flood and Mana hosement, are both greatly effected and often remideyied by impulse, finding you your next mana (as listed in #2) or finding a game breaking spell to channel your mana into, in the case of the mana flood.

5. Impulsing on the stack of an opponents spell will often find you an answer to that spell, either in the form of a counter, or spot removal, or even another tutor.
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Keeper is all about versitility and flexibility, and although keeper decks do have tutors and draw magic, we all know that sometimes they are just not enough. Having whatever you need, when you need it is the ultimate goal for a control deck, and Impulse does contribute to that, in what I feel is an irreplacible way.

I urge you, any of you, even those of you that have tried impulse in the past, to try it again, it is a fast, cheap mini tutor, that is on color for keeper, and increases versitility to the deck.

Thus far, this deck has a very good win ratio versus all forms of aggro that I have been facing in tournament for the last few months, being able to goldfish, using counters and removal to delay the game long enough to combo, or Morph-win.

Additionally, with the tremendous amount of counters in the SB, the deck has faired really well vs contol as well.

I am not claiming that this is the best build of keeper, by any stretch. I AM claiming that this deck, is incredibly consistant, quickly finds answers to the problems put to it, and that it does well vs aggro (in my expierence) and well vs control (also in my expierence).

-Freddie

[j_orlove]

Looking at your deck, I notice two things:
1. no brainstorms. The paragons have been raving about these as strongly as you have about impulse. Have you tried them? How do they compare?

2. no cunning wish. With the wish for additional tutor power, wouldn't impulse be less necessary?

Also, your mana base has a lot of potentially weak stuff in it (academy, monolith, etc.)--would you need impulse if your mana was more consistent?

[Big Blue]

Your points 1.-5. are sound, and I am inclined to believe that they are even true.

I am playing 3 Impulses since I swapped to Trinity in September and I am quite happy with the change. Yes, cutting cards from a Keeper deck is always hard - maybe that's why it was only possible for me after changing the deck completely (and fortunately the list I started with contained 3 Impulse). Now, for 3 months I am trying to fit a 4th Impulse into the deck, but it is impossible for me - this is just to demonstrate how difficult it is to cut cards for Impulse, even if you are believeing that it would be good (and frankly, I think not many Keeper players do have this opinion).

The "pile" which I am playing now resembles more a deck than the post-FoF-pre-Trinity pile that I used to play. Impulse and fetchlands helped a lot.

I have a question, though. Now with the fetchlands on stage what about the card advocated by the Paragon team: Brainstorm?

To me it seems that in versions with the G/PA-combo Impulse is still better while in the versions without G/PA Brainstorm is better, but that's more a feeling than something based on severe testing.

Has anybody done such a testing?

Another note concerns Cunning Wish. While it does not help you to remedy mana problems, it does help you to find solutions - so let me play advocatus diaboli (or in this case advocatus paragoni) and state that, on the contrary, your deck is inflexible since there is no instant access to your SB.

Finally, don't forget that Keeper is very costumizable and some people tend to use it as an Ersatz-religion. This may explain why some people tend to overreact when confronted with changes in Keeper decks (e.g. to as witnessed in the recent ParagonII discussion). So a real scientific answer to the Impulse question probably will not be found in the ensuing discussion here, but rather by playtesting.

As far as I remember your reports your results speak for themselves, so at least for you Impulse seems to be a great card

[FeverDog]

Freddie, i hate to sound harsh, but maybe you need those Impulses because you are running so many sub-optimal cards in your Keeper. Keeper is not a redundant deck like MonoU, Impulse just doesnt work as well in a deck with so many 1-ofs. You complain about not being able to find the answers you need, yet you dont even run Cunning Wish.

I am going to stay away from this thread from now on, as i really dont wish to ge into a flame war. I wish you good luck with your deck.

[Freddie]

First off, thank you for taking the time to read the post, and adding your insight!

@j_orlove:
1. Yes, I have tried Brainstorm, In fact I tried Az's Keeper, and Zherbus', even an alternate (but similar decklist, created by Legend) card for card, versus a variety of different matchups, I did this for over 2 weeks intensly.

With respect to brainstorm... I think it can be a great card, the ability to get rig of useless stuff from hand and shuffle them back into the deck (using the fetched or tutors etc) is a strong one.

However, in my expierence with brainstorm, while it COULD be good, it was not always so. As good as it could ever be, it would rarely rival the ability that impulse has to see 4 cards deep.

It is more common for me, to brainstorm, see nothing great coming, and perhaps not have a shuffeling effect to get rid of it.

Brainstorm is also great vs Duress and hymn in some points of the game, although I feel that Impulse is also good, by allowing you to recover faster from these spell after the barrage has slowed down.

2. Cunning wish: I think that this is a card that can be utulized in keeper, but that it is far from an auto inclusion in one.

The 3cc frightens me, since whatever I am fetching will also have a cc.

Also, I feel that ALL of the wishes "Block" out a chunk of card slots when they are included in keeper.

To MAKE the wish good, you need to alter your SB in such a way that I am not comfortible with.

I think that Cunning Wish forces you to play a bunch of slots in the SB that are less optimum in games 2-3, just for a little more versititly in game 1... games 2,3 are were most matches are played.

With all of the waste/ strips/  shamans/ B2b running around how so many keepers are running two - THREE wishes, and having the mana to use them (consistantly) and the fetched card effectively and in a timely manner is beyond me.

Plus Cunning Wish will not find you a mana source and if you are a little stunted in the early game, you could be far in the hole before a wish will become active, and or useful.

3. The mana base: I agree that it could be more stable. I have had very little problem with the mana base and flow of this deck. If I were to go for total mana consistancey, I would run:

Black Lotus: R
Mox Sapphire: R
Mox Jet: R
Mox Pearl: R
City of Brass: 4
Fetch: 4
Underground: 4
Tundra: 4
Volcanic Island: 4
Island: 4

The color consistancey of this mana base would be nearly unshakible. However, barring going to this other extreme, I am kind of caught in the middle...

Before I was running this combo keeper build, I would most of the time run only 27 mana sources, with the 4 impulses acting like psudeo mana sources, if needed, especially in the early games. So adding the 28th maan source, was actually the Grim Monolith.

I do see your point, and I have considered losing the emerald, and the Academy for another Underground and Tundra, but I feel that having a 1st turn blue producing mana + off color mana + impulse is a FANTASTIC start.

With playing this mana build, getting this sort of setup is maximized, with Academy allowing for another way to get 2 mana on the 1st turn.

In addition, Academy allows for some truely riddiculous Strokes, Geyers, Mind Twists, and YawgWills, it also increases your ability to stroke/ geyser/ fireball for the win, even without the combo coming online.
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@Big Blue:
1. Brainstorm, Please see my above statement aimed at j_orlove.

2. I have not tested my combo keeper versus other combo keepers but I have played quite a bit with my combo keeper (with 4 impulse) versus a more traditional Paragon Keeper build.

I cannot claim that those I played against were as skilled of players as say Zherbus, as I have never faced off against him, but he seems very skilled indeed.

But I do feel that the few opponents that were piloting the deck, were doing so with a good amount of skill and expierence.

Both of these players have been playing since around Ice Age (which is alot longer then I have been playing), and their main focus has always been control.

I feel that in those matches, that I (with having instant speed search) was usually but not always, had a greater solidified mana base, and had access to a higher concentration of brokeness then my opponent, on a CONSISTANT basis.

It was just always about my deck being more consistant.

3. Cunning Wish, Please see my comments above targeted at j_orlove. I'd also like to add, that it is very rare that I am not able to find a BETTER answer in my deck, then what would potentially in my SB.

*Early LOA, Impulse to find a waste.

*Creature rush, impulse to find Balance, or a tutor to find it

*Finding fast and cheap draw magic, impulse for ancestral, or a tutor, or Yawgwill

*Color hosed, Impulse for a fetch, dual, or city.

Were this theory breaks down is with Graveyard recurrsion, and against TnT.

Mainly because I do not have MD answers to the Graveyard.

These have not beed popular in my enviornment, so I have not felt the effects as much.

I agree that Cunning Wish CAN be really powerful, but it just seems to be a big fat card slot, that comes in and DEMANDS 5 slots in your SB as well.

Quote Finally, don't forget that Keeper is very costumizable and some people tend to use it as an Ersatz-religion. This may explain why some people tend to overreact when confronted with changes in Keeper decks (e.g. to as witnessed in the recent ParagonII discussion). So a real scientific answer to the Impulse question probably will not be found in the ensuing discussion here, but rather by playtesting.

This is really insightful, and I whole heartidly agree.

I think that many keeper players have a negative knee jerk reaction to new ideas (or in this case old suggestions ) in a deck that they feel mastery of, especially if it is a card slot that they have overlooked and dismissed.

I try really hard to remain as open minded as possible when dealing with this archtype, especially when considering this is the jack of all trades deck.

I will playtest different versions of keeper (I playtested Paragon Keeper for 2 weeks every day at lunch and even at home, casually) I also played it in 1 tournament that I did fairly well in, but always felt that I was 1-2 turns aways from winning, including in the match that I lost.

I felt that just 1 - 2 impulse in there in those last crucial games would have been able to pull the games out.

Thanks all for reading and your imput.

--Edit--

@FeverDog:
I do not feel that you are being harsh at all.

I really respect you and your openess... you are always really out right and up front with your opinions, so I don't take offence at all.

With all do respect to you as well, would you be willing to playtest this version, or at least one similar to it, to see if your own expierences proove (to you) that your original notions are correct?

Even if you are even MORE compelled to disagree with my build!

Obviously this is not required at all, but I would love to see your opinion on the build (or one similar) after living with it for a few weeks, as I have with 2 of the Paragon decklists.

-Freddie\n\n

[Amosw99]

If I had the cards to build keeper IRL I would definatly play with 4 impulses as I have found them to be necessary for dealing with certain problem matchups. My build looks similar to yours with just a few changes which I feel could really help in many tough matchups. I really have tested my build quite a bit but that testing should be taken with a grain of salt because it was all online. I won't post an entire decklist, just the changes...

first the mana:

-1 Tolarian Academy
-2 City of Brass

+1 Underground Sea
+1 Tundra
+1 Undiscovered Paradise

I find that I rarely miss cities and that the UP is great vs. back to basics. Tolarian in my experience is less than optimal as it is often not as good as another dual.

To the main deck

-1 Counterspell/future sight
-1 Swords to plowshares
-1 Dismantling Blow

+1 Cunning Wish
+1 The Abyss
+1 Fire/Ice

I'll just post my entire sideboard as it is dramatically different from yours.

1 Allay
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Ebony Charm
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Circle of Protection Red
1 Flaming Gambit
1 Misdirection
1 Aura Fracture
1 Celestial Dawn
1 Moat
1 Abeyance

I have found this sideboard to be very effective especially at combating problem matchups like gro, keeper hate sligh, Tnt, and masknaught. Nothing really new except the tech of flaming gambit witch is a great wish target, and also a great thing to side morphling out for vs. aggro when you usually go off with the combo anyway. Also, being able to fetch abeyance vs. combo and control can be very nice. nothing is meaner than abeyence vs. academy in response to their meditate  

Hope that helps,
Amos

[PsychoCid]

This isn't quite on topic, but Amos did mention it, so...
What matchups can't Keeper win without running Impulses, Amos?

[Milton]

I have a few quesitons about your version of Keeper.

I agree with your assumptions about traditional or Paragon Keeper.  Cunning Wish is a slow answer to a fast metagame.  It forces you to bastardize your sideboard and the inclusion of Cunning Wish certianly shouldn't be an automatic.  Brainstorm, while good, isn't suddenly the best card ever and it should be questioned as well.

But, as to your deck, what about the Fireball?  Are you going combo-Keeper so hard that the Fireball is necessary?  I have long favored the use of Fireball as a very efficient creature killer and possible game ender.  But, in your deck wouldn't another Swords or Morphling be a good choice for this slot?  Or a Fire/Ice?  Or a couple of Kegs?

Impulse Keeper allows you to run the Trinity Combo much more efficiently than traditional Keeper, clearly.  So, I would immagine that this deck plays much more like combo than Keeper in some circumstances.  If that is the case, then can you ditch the Morphling?  Could you ditch the creature control for more counters or more tutoring (Merchant Scrolls?).

As to the mana base, why the Academy?  I know the potential for the big mana boost is there, but you really only have a handful of spells that require the big mana.  You cold stabalize the mana base a little more by taking this out and replacing it with a Underground.  Also, I pulled all Cities out of my Keeper in favor of more dual lands.  You could pull both cities for another Volcanic and Tundra.  

In regards to the sideboard, I have to question your use of Wheel of Fortune and Timetwister.  I have trouble seeing a rationale for these cards.  Also, the Enlightened Tutor.  I can see where this would be good to board in along with Aura Fracture and COP Red, but other than that it seems limiting.  Then again, it's your metagame!

I like the deck.  It seems like you are on to something here.  It's good to see a refreshing look at Keeper.  Keep it up.

[Amosw99]

@Cid

Keeper CAN win pretty much any matchup, but I have found that it helps to have impulses for a number of tougher matchups.

Brainstorm is good too, but impulse digs better and tutor's better and can ship stuff you don't necesseraly want to the bottom of your library (like braingeyser in the early game, or extra mana later on).

It doesn't actually turn any matchups from really hard to really easy, but when trying to find answers vs. a deck that can put you on a quick clock (mask, TnT, Gro) or counters vs. combo having the tutoring power of an impulse can turn the matchup around.

Also, impulse is one of those cards that you are never unhappy to draw as it almost always gets something that is useful.

Overall, it just adds to the consistency of the deck and helps alot in tough matchups.

Amos

[ShadowLotus]

I won't comment on the use of the Power Artifact/Grim Monolith combo in your Keeper build, since that's purely a metagame call, but I will make a few statements about running 4x Impulse in your MD.

First off, I don't see how your deck is able to handle decks like TnT, Mask, or Gro better w/ the addition of Impulse over Brainstorm and Cunning Wish.  These are some of the more challenging match-ups for a Keeper player, and I believe one has to be better prepared for these pairings, otherwise it makes taking it all in a balanced/random metagame very difficult.  Sure, Impulse is good if you get it in the opening turns of a game; but after that, you simply begin cantripping into a lack of answers to fast aggro.  How do you handle match-ups like this (especially when you have a sideboard that seems to be mostly anti-control)?

Also, why don't you just play Trinity Keeper, since this deck seems to be heading in that direction (due to its reliance on the combo to beat good aggro)?  It just seems that you're trying to improve your chances against match-ups that are already favorable, and making your harder match-ups that much worse off.

I respect your opinions, even though I disagree w/ your theory about Impulse being an optimal choice in Keeper and some of your other interesting decklist picks, so I'll hold back my additional comments until you answer the above questions.

[Amosw99]

Basically, vs. aggro I play for the combo game one and often am able to get it after 6 or 7 turns. That means I usually need two disruption spells to stop good aggro one removal and one counter, 2 removal, or 2 counters and then I can combo for the win. Game 2 I actually have quite alot sideboarded for aggro. Remember this is not paragon or trinity. This is impulse keeper it runs vamp, mystical, demonic, wish AND 4 imuplses. That's ALOT of tutoring power.
TnT, Mask, and Gro are all not that difficult if you draw 1 of your removal spells (STP, Fire/ice, Abyss, Balance, Fireball, Wish) and the combo. Admitadly they are fast and can beat you, but you are broken, and can topdeck victories.

I'm going home now so no more posts for the night  

Amos

[Milton]

Quote First off, I don't see how your deck is able to handle decks like TnT, Mask, or Gro better w/ the addition of Impulse over Brainstorm and Cunning Wish.  

The assumption that you are making is that Cunning Wish for Swords or Pulse or Allay is a good way to deal with TnT, Mask or Grow.  The truth is that it is often, sadly, too slow.  3cc for a sideboard card that costs 1 or 2 with a buyback is slow.  It just is.  Having the Plow or Keg in hand is superior in almost all cases.  Granted, it's not as efficient, but it is redundant.  There is a comfort in knowing that you have the redundancy to find the answer quickly, instead of having to find the Cunning Wish with a Brainstorm to get the Swords to stave off the early Dreadnaught.  Impulse, get an answer, get a counter, get land.  Rednudency.  It's nice.

[PsychoCid]

ComboKeeper is one thing.  I fully support the inclusion of Vampiric Tutor and Impulses there.

Elsewhere, the problem has been that it's one of those cards that IS a wasted draw.  You don't have TIME to blow 2 mana to dig through four cards--if you're looking for something in particular, you'd just run more tutors.

[Vegeta2711]

Um I'm confused.

"You don't have TIME to blow 2 mana to dig through four cards"

But, you have the time to blow 1 mana to dig through three w/ Brainstorm?

"Sure, Impulse is good if you get it in the opening turns of a game; but after that, you simply begin cantripping into a lack of answers to fast aggro."

Again doesn't Brainstorm end up doing practically the same when that happens?

[ShadowLotus]

Quote The assumption that you are making is that Cunning Wish for Swords or Pulse or Allay is a good way to deal with TnT, Mask or Grow.  The truth is that it is often, sadly, too slow.  3cc for a sideboard card that costs 1 or 2 with a buyback is slow.  It just is.

It's not an assumption, since I play Keeper competitively myself, and I playtest against Mask and TnT the majority of the time (mostly due to the fact that Vintage players have quite an attachment to those two decks when it comes to aggro).

Cunning Wish is effective at slowing down TnT b/c of the addition of Ebony Charm in the sideboard, rather than relying on Swords to Plowshares or Shattering Pulse.  The key to beating that deck is shutting off the Survival engine (if it somehow slips into play), rather than trying to Impulse into limited answers for each creature that is tutored for by the TnT player.

Plus, no one said you had to use the buyback on Shattering Pulse (most of the time against TnT I don't, since I've already gained control by that point).  Using that as an argument against the use of Cunning Wish doesn't make sense at all.

Quote Impulse, get an answer, get a counter, get land.  Rednudency.  It's nice.

Keeper is not a redundant deck, though it's much tighter in the Paragon Keeper builds, so saying that Impulse adds that isn't true at all.

As PsychoCid said, Impulse just becomes a waste of a draw the majority of the time, since it's only cantripping into a maindeck that has less answers to aggro (other than a single three-card combo).  Cunning Wish's mana cost isn't a problem for those of us who face TnT, Mask, and Gro all day; that, and it allows us to use our sideboards, which offers better answers to the early wave of threats that those decks throw out there.

My sideboard definitely wasn't "bastardized" by the addition of 2x Cunning Wishes to my deck - now, I'm better able to take on fast aggro, especially during Game 1.  Why would Impulse replace both them and Brainstorm?

Quote Again doesn't Brainstorm end up doing practically the same when that happens?

Also, Brainstorm != Impulse at all.  Impulse may dig a little further, but it only replaces itself.  Brainstorm allows one to dig three cards down, to hide cards from discard, to get rid of dead cards in hand, and is a better card against aggro.  Even if you don't have any shuffling effects on the board (or in your hand), you at least have three more cards from your maindeck, which allows you to better handle the initial wave.  They really don't perform the same job.

[box]

Compare Wish to Impulse:

Wish allows you to take the answer immediately from your Sideboard. You are assured to get the answer. No sittuations where you do not find the Swords that you were looking for with you Impulse. But, what if you get a tutor with the Impulse? Then, it ends up taking longer (Vampiric) or more mana (Demonic) to find the swords.

Whats all this about Wishes being too slow?

So, after you find your Swords, your all out of them.  Thats whats great about Wishes. You cast 1 Swords, and you still have access to 1 more.

[ReplenishedGuy]

Well, I suggest Impulse over Brainstorm, especially in a powered deck such as yours.  While this isn't exactly the same, I have a thread going on about Impulse/Brainstorm (although it is for Oath, not Keeper).  Here it is: CLICK  Don't know if it's all that helpfull, but...

     I think Brainstorm is pretty good, but combined with other things, like shuffling effects.  You're deck looks good, plain and simple.  One more thing:  I would definetly run a Cunning WIsh or two in there to get things you need, because you complained about not finding some cards soon enough.  Cunning WIsh is just really amzing, anyway.  Hope this helps somewhat, and good luck.

[Vegeta2711]

To quickly restate. Yes I understand Brainstorm can do all that extra stuff. I was more focusing on what you said about you digging further into your library and cantripping into nothing against fast aggro.
"but after that, you simply begin cantripping into a lack of answers to fast aggro"
Because, to me the cards would be doing the same thing in that situation. But, yeah I get the point your trying to make now.

[PsychoCid]

Any time digging is the important part for a cheap search spell, Impulse will be better than Brainstorm.

For any deck which wants to retrieve combo pieces ASAP, the cheap search spells will be there for their ability to dig, first and foremost.

Impulse belongs in ComboKeeper for those reasons.

Brainstorm, in standard Keeper, does not hold its place for its ability to dig for an answer so much as for its ability to protect.  Protect important cards in hand from a Hymn, protect you from losing footing on the board because your hand has some cards that are useless in the particular matchup.

Hence each belongs in a different place.

[Fishhead]

Well, I think Freddie etc, know where I stand on Impulse, so I wont bother to strongly support Impulse in this thread.

I havent played enough games with pure Paragon Keeper to be really confident in my impression, but in the games I did play I was surprised by how seldom the 2 Brainstorms came up.  They were practically a non-factor.  I was really frustrated by this after all the talk other people gave about how great Brainstorm is.  

(I do remember flipping the Brainstorm down on the table in my 4th game against Gro and bitterly complaining that, in another build, there'd be a 50/50 chance that card would have been a Vampiric which I could have used to get Abyss with.  But thats a bit tangential.

My sorta elliptical point is that we are comparing 3-4 Impulses to 2 Brainstorms.  When you run 3-4 Impulses, you really expect to see one or two during a game (and the more you see, the deeper you dig, and the greater chance of seeing more) while I dont think you can generally expect to see one of your 2 Brainstorms unless you are playing long control games.

Quote Cunning Wish is effective at slowing down TnT b/c of the addition of Ebony Charm in the sideboard

This is a key point, and very true.  Some chimps on this board lauded Shattering Pulse as being a backbreaker against TnT when, in truth, a 5CC buyback spell is just too slow to blunt the attack.  But Wish for Ebony Charm is actually a huge play.  Wish for StP is still mostly junk, but Wish for ReB is pretty good.  Overall, the Wish is a big improvement.

If you've been ignoring the Wish because of the bad information in those early discussions, its definitely time to try it out again.  It wont replace Impulse because the two cards perform totally different functions, but I think that the flexibility that Wish provides is the best innovation in Paragon Keeper.  (Well, that and the Fetch Lands).

[PsychoCid]

The thing is, 2 Brainstorm is significantly difference from 3-4 Impulse in many ways.  Examine the following:

Both:
-Pitchable to FoW
-Replace themselves with a better card from library
-Search cheaply

Brainstorm:
-Helps against discard
-Gets rid of unwanted cards in hand
-Gives you more than just 1 new card

Impulse:
-Digs deeper to find something IN PARTICULAR but not as well as a tutor can

Brainstorm rounds out the deck nicely, whereas Impulses would be a huge component.  If Keeper could function well as a bullet deck, I could understand running Impulses much as anyone could understand running Vampiric Tutor.

Impulse does one and only one thing: digs.  You'll see it in decks with bullets or that need to find something specific to keep going (ex: Oath in control, a big draw spell/combo piece in combo) and in decks that are very redundant and really need to push through their non-useful cards to find an answer (ex: a counter in mono-blue/urphidian).

Keeper is not a deck searching for a particular bullet, a combo piece, or trying to ensure that it never runs out of counters (or can find a keg on time).  That's pretty much what the deciding factor is.

[Dave Kaplan]

I think the Power Artifact/Monolith combo is better left to the Paragon version, with Brainstorms and fetchlands. What happens if u get Power Artifact in your opening hand? It's a dead card for a while.

[Fishhead]

Quote What happens if u get Power Artifact in your opening hand? It's a dead card for a while.

I think Keeper, in general, can accept a dead card in hand for a while.  Its not like I want to draw Morphling to start, or Abyss or Balance against Control.  I'm kinda used to dealing with dead cards.  (Not that I'm in favor of them, its just that sometimes stuff happens and you have to cope.  No biggie.)

One thing I am curious about is what peoples experiences were with the 2 Brainstorms in the Paragon version.  In my experience, I just didnt draw the Brainstorms that often and when I did I never seemed to have the Fetch Land available.  Part of that is circular; once I realized that my chances of seeing two specific cards in a 60 card deck wasnt that high, I started being more aggressive with the Fetchies, figuring, "Well, should I keep Fetchie open in case I draw a Brainstorm or should I just thin the land in my deck by 1 now?"  Small payoff now, or larger payoff that might never come.  Certainly, at the beginning of the game, I felt I needed to develop my colors and my mana-base in general.  I felt I couldnt wait around for Brainstorm, so I would use early Fetchies right away.  

So what are other peoples experience here?

[ShadowLotus]

Quote (Fishhead @ Jan. 20 2003,22:58)One thing I am curious about is what peoples experiences were with the 2 Brainstorms in the Paragon version.  In my experience, I just didnt draw the Brainstorms that often and when I did I never seemed to have the Fetch Land available.  Part of that is circular; once I realized that my chances of seeing two specific cards in a 60 card deck wasnt that high, I started being more aggressive with the Fetchies, figuring, "Well, should I keep Fetchie open in case I draw a Brainstorm or should I just thin the land in my deck by 1 now?"  Small payoff now, or larger payoff that might never come.  Certainly, at the beginning of the game, I felt I needed to develop my colors and my mana-base in general.  I felt I couldnt wait around for Brainstorm, so I would use early Fetchies right away.  

So what are other peoples experience here?

In my experiences w/ the 2x Brainstorm, I usually don't wait to draw a Brainstorm if I have a fetchland or tutor when it comes down to using them for their shuffling effects.  Most of the time, though, I'm able to use Brainstorm to its fullest potential (since there are already seven shufflers in my deck) - and there are times when it becomes quite broken b/c of that set-up - but when I don't, it doesn't bother me much.  Then again, I'm a very aggressive control player, so I don't like sitting on things against certain archetypes in match-ups (i.e., fast aggro or heavy-discard decks) unless I know I can wait a few turns to see what I topdeck.

What I like about Brainstorm so much in Paragon Keeper (I don't use the Power Artifact/Grim Monolith combo, since I'm very comfortable against aggro w/o it), which Impulse isn't able to provide, is that even if I can't shuffle away dead cards, that I'm able to see and keep three new cards that I've drawn, allowing me to have access to answers that might've taken a few extra turns to get to.  Also, in the early game, it helps w/ my mana-development if I'm being color-hosed, so not having a fetchland or tutor in that situation doesn't matter.  Play Brainstorm and see what happens - most the of time it'll help ya out.

Overall, as there's no hard-and-fast rule to how to play Keeper, there's no *definite* answer to your question.  It all depends on what you have in your particular Keeper build, what you're playing against (which is probably the most important aspect of the decision), what's in your hand already, and what's your board position and the board position of your opponent.  Once you playtest A TON using Paragon Keeper w/ Brainstorm, then you're better able to tell when the best times are to use that card - and how to make it the most successful for you in a game.

I hope that very general answer helps you a bit.

[Ruken]

Jesus Christ.  The best part about the new fetchlands is that you're guaranteed a use out of them before that particular land drop gets Wasted.  NEVER start 'thinning' out your deck early by using it before you absolutely need the mana.

[Rakso]

Quote Here are some counter arguments and points about what impulse does when I play with it, some of the many reasons that I feel that Impulse IS, or SHOULD be the backbone of "The Deck".

Impulse should be the backbone of Forbiddian.

Imagine the impact of cutting cards like Merchant Scroll for Impulse in this sort of deck. You seem to want to play it like BBS or something.

[Fishhead]

Quote Imagine the impact of cutting cards like Merchant Scroll for Impulse in this sort of deck.

Does anyone else remember back the big arguments against putting Impulse into your Keeper over the last couple years?  The most comical (to modern theory) being, "Omigod, how can you cut Green?? You are giving up Sylvan and Regrowth? You will have less broken cards than me and I will win!"  Now, pretty much everyone agrees that Green is gone (unless you want to go heavy green in Trinity.)

But still this faulty line of reasoning continues.  "What will you cut for your Impulses?  Merchant Scroll?  Never!"  Of course, Brainstorms in Paragon are pure genius, even though "broken" cards must have been cut to squeeze them in.  Lol.  

Quote Once you playtest A TON using Paragon Keeper w/ Brainstorm, then you're better able to tell when the best times are to use that card - and how to make it the most successful for you in a game.

OK, cool, this is useful feedback for me.  I have only gotten in one night of testing pure Paragon Keeper and I was utterly unimpressed by the Brainstorms, mostly because I never seemed to draw them.  They just seemed like a non-entity to me.  Prehaps I had too high a hopes after all the talk about how great they were for smoothing out your draws by dumping unneeded cards etc etc.  It's part of what I was trying to get at by saying it was strange to compare 2 Brainstorms to 4 Impulses - I am much more likely to see the latter.  If you run 4 Impulses, they should impact pretty much every game (60/4=15 cards ~ turn 5-7).  Two Brainstorms is really only likely when the games run long (60/2=30 cards ~ turn 15+).

[-CF-]

Quote If you run 4 Impulses, they should impact pretty much every game (60/4=15 cards ~ turn 5-7).  Two Brainstorms is really only likely when the games run long (60/2=30 cards ~ turn 15+).

Let's cut all the one and two-ofs we want to see early then. I mean, they're not any good to us now, are they? )

--
Chris

[Big Blue]

I think by starting with "I would have to cut <insert card here> for Impulse - I'll never do that!" you are cought in a trap. That's what I wanted to point out in my previous post.

You should start from scratch when trying to play Impulsive Keeper and not try to take your pet-Keeper deck and get rid of 3-4 cards. This will never work.

I think statements of the sort "Impulse does not belong to Keeper - it belongs to <insert deck here>" are too general to be true.

BTW, in Trinity Impulse is not only good because of the "combo" (before SBing it is not a combo-deck after all, but an ordinary 4cc deck with Green instead of Red), but because it fetches e.g. one of the few Wastelands against an early LoA. I can imagine that also Paragonish decks could benefit from this, since the tendency post-Onslaught is to reduce the Wasteland count.

[Rakso]

Quote (Fishhead @ Jan. 21 2003,02:18)But still this faulty line of reasoning continues.  "What will you cut for your Impulses?  Merchant Scroll?  Never!"  Of course, Brainstorms in Paragon are pure genius, even though "broken" cards must have been cut to squeeze them in.  Lol.

Oh, stop being a tool.

No one said to cut Merchant Scroll for a Brainstorm, either.

You could also try to understand previous arguments, too. Colored mana aside, it just wasn't worth it to cut Sylvan for Impulse in the pre-Onslaught builds. Sylvan is the superior manipulation card.

Cutting Sylvan has nothing to do with cutting broken cards; the primary consideration was consolidating the mana base.

This is the Extreme Forum, dude.