This is my attempt to use the successful Paragon Engine o...

[cooberp]

This is my attempt to use the successful Paragon Engine of Fetchlands, Brainstorms, and Cunning Wish in UrPhidian.  The ability to Wish for Starstorm or PsiBlast should help against fat dudes game one.

All feedback welcome.  Decided to go to to the standard 4 F/I, 2 Keg instead of 3/3 as it makes the deck bluer and has fewer dead cards vs. control.

//NAME: UrPhidian

Mana (26)
        5 Island
        4 Volcanic Island
        3 Wasteland
        3 Polluted Delta
        2 Flooded Strand
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Library of Alexandria
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Sol Ring

Counters (13)
        4 Mana Drain
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Leak
        1 Misdirection

Draw (6)
        4 Ophidian
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Fact or Fiction

Removal (6)
        4 Fire/Ice
        2 Powder Keg

Search (5)
        2 Brainstorm
        2 Cunning Wish
        1 Merchant Scroll

Kill (3)
        3 Morphling

Utility (1)
        1 Time Walk

Sideboard (15)
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Flametongue Kavu
2 Blood Moon
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Capsize
1 Psionic Blast
1 Starstorm
1 Annul
1 Misdirection
1 Stroke of Genius\n\n

[Exeter]

My first impression is that you're mana light, especially trying to run Mana Drain off 10 permanent blue sources.  Admittedly, Mana Drain is not as key to this deck as it is to Keeper until the late game, when you can Wish for a bomb.  Also, 10 blue sources limits your ability to go suicide-Morphling, which can outright win games.  Having only 5 permanent red sources could bite you post-SB, when you want to bring in the REB's vs Keeper or mono-U, too.

Be careful about double-posting. -Cid\n\n

[PsychoCid]

First of all, I have no idea why you'd call it the 'Paragon' Engine.  Or even Engine, really.  Phid is an engine.  Cantrips that lead into eachother make an engine (Gro).  Brainstorm + shuffle effect is not an engine.

Second, it's not radically different.  From an average listing, the differences are basically:
-6 mana sources, +5 fetch +1 Wish
-1 Merchant Scroll, +1 Brainstorm
-1 Misdirection, +1 Brainstorm
-1 Fire/Ice, +1 Powder Keg

The idea of less Misdirections and more available critter kill is definitely helpful against TnT.  If you snag a win there, that's awesome, but post-boarding, the game will still be to avoid the early threats and try to kill asap.

I had tried fitting fetchlands in for a while, and retreated from the idea when Wastelands became a lot more potent against me.  This is really the only thing that concerns me about the build.  Yes, you can fetch your basics, but chances are a good portion of your established mana base will still be waste-vulnerable.  I suppose if it's working out for you, there's not much of an argument to be put up against it.

[cooberp]

Also, Psi Blast > Prophetic Bolt, right?

[Rakso]

You can make better use of the Cunning Wishes than you can in mono blue, but why fetch lands? They just don't fit here.

[MoreFling]

Rakso, they are clearly intended to work along with the brainstorms in the deck, which is the whole idea of this specific list, and what cooberp seems to be referring to as the Paragon engine.
So in that aspect, they defininately fit in there.

[Azhrei]

Rakso, fetchlands fit in mono-decks even. Thinning = good.

[Rakso]

Yeah, but thinning for a counter-based deck that doesn't need mana fixing and runs less mana sources than Keeper anyway? I think it works better in things like Grow and Fish.

[bebe]

Fetchlands in Fish? Please tell me why? Do we need to rewrite the primer?

[Smmenen]

Quote (Rakso @ Jan. 21 2003,08:34)Yeah, but thinning for a counter-based deck that doesn't need mana fixing and runs less mana sources than Keeper anyway? I think it works better in things like Grow and Fish.

I agree.  I don't like  fetchlands in mono blue phid at all in its current form.  If someone wanted to play a full rack of Brainstorm....perhaps.    

Howeever, there is one possible benefit of playing fetchlands in U/rphid that I discussed with cid a couple of weeks ago: it could make Blood Moon easier to maindeck.  One of the problems I always had with Blood Moon in the 4 Volc, 4 Reefs configuration is that I felt like half of my mana was being wrecked by it.  By using fetchlands to fetch Islands as well as Volcs, it could minimize the impact of Blood Moon on your own mana base and make it more desirable as a maindeck card.  

Cid said that he tried something like this but that he had problem against Wastelands.  So who knows?

Steve\n\n

[Nuorukain]

Just a question, relating to the deck & common attitude.
Is the common opinion that Thawing Glaciers are just too slow? I've been using them in my u/x -decks for ages, accomppanied by (4)brainstorms and (2)dust bowl. Just randomly wrecks controldecks with multicolored manabase. (Also I have a Traderoutes to make Mishra's factories great blockkers, to cycle exes lands, make opponents wasteland bad, etc.)
*shrugs*
Just throwing possibilities into air, nothing else...

-Nuorukain

[Milton]

I played a deck like this a few tournaments ago and I had a tough time.  My mana base was nearly identical to yours and I found that I just didn't have enough Islands to make the deck run properly.  I realized in that tournament that the fetchlands aren't for all deck types.  Eight basic Islands will provide you with an incredibly consistant deck.  It will give you some comfort against Ankh's and Wastes.  It will make your deck much less disruptable.  With the mana base you are running now, you are more suceptable to non-basic hate than a good U/R deck should be.

Also, I soured on Mana Leak after using it.  I decided to go 4 Drain, 4 Force and 4 Misdirections, along with one regular Counterspell in my latest build.  I pulled the off-color Moxes all together because, with 4 Misdirections and 4 Force of Wills, I can usually counter on first or second turn without Mana Leak, so I didn't need the Moxes for that early counter.

And, if you are relying on Phid as your card drawing engine you need Misdirections to keep them alive and clear the way of blockers.  Misdirect a bolt or an Edict or an Incinterate or a Chain Lighting to keep the Phid around.  

Cunning Wish also is somewhat suspect.  Shattering Pulse is an awful card against all but a small amount of decks.  Starstorm isn't very good either.  If you run the right amount of Kegs and Fire/Ice you should be able to beat back the weenie hoard long enough to stabalize.  The big dudes aren't a problem because of your counters.  Sure, the occasional Negator slips through the counter wall, but Starstorm won't do you much good against an early Negator.  And the Cunning Wish for Psy Blast might be a little slow.  Then again, if you like the Wish you may want to consider Mana Short for the sideboard.

If you pull the Cunning Wishes you could really up your sideboard consistancy against certian match-ups, namely TnT and Mask, by running 3 or 4 Rack and Ruin or, hell, even Shatterstorm!  That's if TnT is a problem for you.

With your Phids, you should probabally be running a Masticore or two maindeck to clear the way.  Phid draws cards to feed the Core, the Core clears the way for the Phid.

Also, you can pull the Brainstorms for two extra Merchant Scrolls, giving you three total.  That will allow you to Ancestral and Fact all day, and will give you a late game tutor for a Fire/Ice of a counter.

Also, if you decide agaist Mana Short and pull your off color moxes you could potentially run one Nev's Disk for board clearing.  Works great against all manner of decks and it's easy to cast it with early Drain mana.

U/R Phid is a great deck design, but it's strengths are in its consistency and redundency.  Fetchlands and Brainstorm and Cunning Wish sacrafice this redundency for efficiency, but it's not a good trade-off in a two color deck.

Good luck.\n\n

[PsychoCid]

Quote (Milton @ Jan. 21 2003,12:09)U/R Phid is a great deck design, but it's strengths are in its consistency and redundency.  Fetchlands and Brainstorm and Cunning Wish sacrafice this redundency for efficiency, but it's not a good trade-off in a two color deck.

This is definitely the easiest part to agree with.

There was quite a while where people were questioning the choice between running the full set of moxen and simply the on-color ones--in the end, pretty much only the full power builds were left, because of the redundancy/consistency.  It could consistently be prepared with a hard counter (as opposed to a Misdirection, or at least on top of) on turn one, and it could consistently get a Phid out at a quicker pace.

Cunning Wish has shown itself to be of some decent use in U/r Permission builds.  Most run 1 and use other room on a 2nd Merchant Scroll--so it's available when you need it, although you'll have to use time on the tutor-chain type effect.  Because Wish doesn't grant you as many options as it will in Keeper, I feel the 2nd Scroll is more useful, most of the time.

As for the Mana Short, your space is limited as to how much you can side against control.  Still, it's not horrible, and it can be done.  Gotta love the feeling of freedom over the next turn

[Ufactor, the Restricted]

should more mana kill be emphasized?  I know when Matt D'Avanzo posted his U/r Phid deck on BD he listed 5 strips and 2 Gorilla Shaman.

[cooberp]

Good suggestion.  I'll see if I can work it in.

[PsychoCid]

Room is the main issue.  Most decks end up choosing between Keg and Shaman, and Keg is more important.

How long ago was Matt's post, anyway?  Hasn't the general meta shifted and sped up quite a bit since then?

[Marco A Toso]

For reference, here's the U/r deck I used to play before I sold all of my cards and quit Magic (almost a year ago now). I remember posting the deck at bdominia. I did quite well with it, including a win at a local tournament, and a second place finish at one of the Hairy Tarantula tournaments in Toronto:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
3 Impulse
4 Mana Drain
1 Merchant Scroll
2 Misdirection
2 Morphling
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Ophidian
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Teferi's Response
1 Timetwister
1 Time Walk

4 Fire/Ice

2 Gorilla Shaman

4 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Mountain
4 Shivan Reef
1 Strip Mine
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Hydroblast
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Rushing River
3 Dwarven Miner
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Red Elemental Blast

(The sideboard varied and also included Tormod's Crypt, Annul, and Guerrilla Tactics, depending on the environment.)

This is an interesting thread because I am considering the new fetchlands as well as Cunning and Burning Wish for an updated version. (If I play Magic again it will be with my friend's cards.) It seems that the new fetchlands and Cunning Wish do not make as big an impact in U/r as they do in Keeper. If I were to play the deck today, it would probably be closer to the deck above, but with some modifications.

[Ufactor, the Restricted]

he posted it about nine months ago.  in the NGNY meta, shaman (shamen, shamans??) are more important enough to run in the main with fire/ ice as the only creature kill.  he did, however have multiple kegs, control magic and sometimes FTK in the sideboard.  maybe it's time for a change.  seeing how Keeper dropped its excess Miners, Wastes and Gorillas (unless Gay Fish is expected) begs the question:
does mana kill matter anymore?

[PsychoCid]

Mana denial is quite significant.  If anything, possibly moreso now than it ever was.  The thing is, extra (as in beyond necessary) manakill which will help against certain decks is not worth putting yourself in an even more dangerous situation when faced with decks like TnT and Mask.

[Zherbus]

Moved. Not exactly a model EVF thread, but more of a deck critique.