R/G Zoo discussion

[Mith]

In my area, I've been running across a lot of control (Keeper and U/R) as well as sligh. Add to that the fact that I'm bored with Mask, and I decided to play something new. One deck that I used to play back in the late 90's was Zoo. Back then, I played W/G/R...but after taking a look at last year's GenCon decks plus some others posted on this forum, I decided to try my hand at the G/R version.
note: this is VERY similar to Redman's version that he is playing in the Invitational. However, I feel that adding blue is not worth the loss of Blood Moon in the sideboard.

Red:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Chain Lightning
4 Kird Ape
4 Gorilla Shaman
1 Wheel of Fortune
Green:
4 Blurred Mongoose
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Sylvan Library (amazing with fetchlands and landgrants...I had to up the number to two)
1 Regrowth
Other:
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Black Vise
1 Hull Breach
Mana:
4 Land Grant
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
2 Mountain
2 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby

Board:
1 Hull Breach
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Blood Moon (MVP of the sideboard)
4 Pyrokinesis (good vs. Sligh, TnT, etc)
4 Naturalize (with this deck, I fear TnT and Mask more than anything)

So far, testing has been great vs. Keeper, Mono-U, URphidian, Ankh Sligh (I wondered about this matchup, but so far Zoo hasn't lost a game), and Sui. The mana curve on this deck runs like Sligh, but the deck has a much better midgame (threshold with a mongoose in play is always a beautiful thing). I never fully realized just how amazing having eight untargetable creatures can be.

Against TnT, Mask, and GrowATog...well, it depends. Against Tog, an early Blood Moon wins. The Mask matchup depends on drawing that artifact destruction, of which the deck has plenty. TnT is the worst matchup so far...that deck just seems to come back at the very last moment to win. A steady draw of naturalizes and Pyrokenisis can steer the game your way...but if for some reason a welder stays in play, that's game.

Overall I've been very impressed with the deck. The last thing I need to test against is Gro...which I'm not all that sure this deck can do that well against.

If anyone has any input, advice, etc...speak up.

[Razor]

Quote However, I feel that adding blue is not worth the loss of Blood Moon in the sideboard.

I've been toying with the idea of adding blue to my RG for the benefits of card-drawing.  Along with the usual suspects is a 'new' enchantment which may be worth a second look.  Ceta Sanctuary allows you to draw one extra card if you have a red permanant and another extra card if you have a green permanent - every upkeep.  Albeit, a little slow, the benefits may well be worth it.

I have noticed a surge in the use of the new Fetchlands, and with it new vulnerabilities in decks using them - blue-based decks, in particular.

Cards like: Choke, Ankh of Mishra, and Armageddon have gotten lots better.  Whereas, cards like Wasteland and Dwarven Miner are slightly worse since they cannot hit Fetchlands before they can be activated to fetch another land.

Decks like U-R or U-B or U-W have generally dropped their 'old' Apocalypse/Ice Age painlands for 'new' fetchlands and Disks for Kegs.  Without their old 'Painlands' they usually have just 1-2 moxen and 2-4 off-coloured basic lands which are not islands (ie.Mtn, Plains, Swamp) with which to survive a resolved Choke.  And none of these decks are really reknowned for enchantment/artifact removal, either.

I think that Choke will kill most blue-based decks today given their over-use of 'fetchlands' for islands and island-duals.

Plain ol' permanents have always tended to be trouble for blue-based control decks.  I drew this conclusion in part from my experiences with Parfait.  Back in the days of 2-4 Nev's Disk in Control decks, opposing permanents were more easily 'fixed'; but who plays Disk nowadays?

So far the following RG Zoo deck is doing very well - albeit, in limited testing.  I am looking for Sideboard suggestions, at the moment most of all.  eg. I am pretty sure it'll be difficult to actually SB out 8 slots versus mono-U for example to SB in 4 Choke, and 4 REBs.

Here is my latest RG Zoo decklist which has proven more successful without the Mongeese, which aren't dangerous enough, fast enough and have little synergy with Lavamancers unlike Stormbind which is a beatstick in here.

//Name: Zoo, R-G v.1.0
//By Ray Mitchell
//ray@webinmotion.net
//2003-Jan-23
//Thanks: Kev & Jon
//Cards: 61
//
//Mana: 27
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain
3 Forest
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
//
//Critters: 20
4 Kird Ape
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Dwarven Miner
4 River Boa
//
//Enchantments: 7
4 Rancor
3 Stormbind
//
//Instants: 6
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Naturalize
//
//Sorceries: 1
1 Wheel of Fortune
//
//Sideboard: 15
4 Choke
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Hull Breach
1 Claws of Gix
//End

Worthwhile Card Considerations:
//Regrowth
//Browbeat
//Sylvan Library
//Yavimaya Elder
//Cursed Scroll
//Black Vise
//Pyrokinesis
//Giant Growth
//Call of the Herd
//City of Solitude
//Null Rod

[j_orlove]

Um...

Quote Ceta Sanctuary

Color= Blue  Type= Enchantment  Cost= 2U AP(U)  
Text (AP): At the beginning of your upkeep, if you control a red or green permanent, draw a card, then discard a card from your hand. If you control a red permanent and a green permanent, instead draw two cards, then discard a card from your hand.

The ability has you draw zero, one, or two cards, but never three. [Apocalypse FAQ 2001/05/24]

It gives you zero net cards with a single red or green permanent, and one net card if you have both a red and a green permanent.

[Mith]

I really miss Rancor...but with half my creatures being untargetable, it's no good in my deck. At times I want to try out a different arrangement of creatures, but what I have now seems to be optimal. All of them are cheap, and powerful. Monkeys and Mongeese...maybe that's what I should call the deck

I do like Choke quite a bit. I ran them in PT Funk when I tried that deck out, and they performed admirably. However, The ability of Blood Moon to shut down non-island nonbasics is too good. Plus, decks like GrowATog and Gro run Gush, which basically negates Choke. For a bit, I considered Scald...it works wonders in Ankh Sligh. Overall, Blood moon has proven to be a better fit for my deck.

I did try out a stormbind for a bit...but I found it to be not nearly as good as Cursed Scroll. The colorless damage is a blessing, and I don't often have cards I want to discard unless I'm under a mana flood.

So far, 4 fetchlands and 4 land grants have given me a rather smooth mana base, and have given the deck the extra fodder it needs to hit threshold in time to beat down with the mongoose.

I think that blue is not worth the space...and I'm not sure that Ceta Sancturary is all that solid an investment. Sylvan library is AMAZING with the eight deck shuffling cards that I have...I always manage to find exactly what I need.

As lonely as the one black vise is...I wouldn't play without it. Sometimes it's a dead draw...other times it's a first turn clock. Against decks that like to keep a full hand (Keeper, Gro, Tog, Gay Fish), it's great to have around.

Pyrokenisis is good against so much of the aggro field...I think it's definetly worth the sideboard slots.

[PsychoCid]

I really don't like Zoo with 12 creatures.  These builds come off as Sligh featuring 4 slow (2cc) creatures, a lot less burn (often no PoPs, too), and a mana base that makes Wasteland useful against you.  It really would just be so much better off as Sligh.

20 creature versions on the other hand, can have the same arguments presented against them, and would seem better off as (Red) Stompy.

'D'AvanZOO,' as it has come to be known as, presents a feeling of play entirely seperate from the concepts of Sligh and Stompy.  Blue's draw utility and the medium-sized count of creatures give you a mid-late game that isn't just sitting and waiting for another threat.

Really, I just don't see an optimal purpose to Red/Green Zoo, anymore, outside of not owning the blue power and duals.

At any rate, you've taken D'AvanZOO and removed blue for a couple very random utility slots.  Aggro wants to be focussed and consistent.  One-ofs (aside from restricted cards) are jack shit.  You're better off sideboarding some real hate than maindecking a lone Hull Breach in hopes of drawing it exactly at the right time.  Regrowth is questionable, since aggro wants to consistently see threats and burn, not odd utility that will fetch it something it could have just as easily drawn into.

Lastly, 24 slots devoted entirely to mana seems a bit high, even though 8 are thinners.\n\n

[Razor]

Quote It gives you zero net cards with a single red or green permanent, and one net card if you have both a red and a green permanent.

Jacob, I would consider testing a pair of Ceta Sancs in an RG deck because, while they do not reliably give card advantage, they do reliably improve card quality.

Quote However, The ability of Blood Moon to shut down non-island nonbasics is too good.

Mith, I first considered Blood Moon when I considered SB land hate.  It was only after I noticed that I am seeing Islands (in one form or another) more than ever that I chose Choke over it.  On second thought, I may run a pair of each for added versatility.

Quote I did try out a stormbind for a bit...but I found it to be not nearly as good as Cursed Scroll. The colorless damage is a blessing, and I don't often have cards I want to discard unless I'm under a mana flood.

I tested Cursed Scroll first but was surprised to discover that I was happier with Stormbind.  Why?  Because my: Miners, Monkies, Factories and 'Mancers consume too much mana to reliably afford the 3 mana to activate a C.Scroll, too.  Besides, a lone C.Scroll has more trouble killing larger threats than does Stormbind.  The synergy of Stormbind with Lavamancers and Wheel is compelling, too.  Also, neither Kegs nor Monkies hit 'bind.  Stormbind makes every topdeck a shock-sized threat which helps me feel better about running 28 mana sources.  Scrolls and Wheel have less synergy than do 'Binds and Wheel.  'Mancers are so good.

Mith, your deck is more Aggro than mine which was designed as an Aggro:Control deck, hence your deck is better off with C.Scrolls over the 'binds.

Quote So far, 4 fetchlands and 4 land grants have given me a rather smooth mana base, and have given the deck the extra fodder it needs to hit threshold in time to beat down with the mongoose.

I like the fetchlands, too since they: improve my topdeck card quality, fuel my 'Mancers and ensure my Kird Apes are 2/3's (more than the Karplusan Forests did).

Quote Sylvan library is AMAZING with the eight deck shuffling cards that I have...I always manage to find exactly what I need.

I'd like to find room for a single Sylvan Library at some point in the near future.

Quote As lonely as the one black vise is...I wouldn't play without it. Sometimes it's a dead draw...other times it's a first turn clock. Against decks that like to keep a full hand (Keeper, Gro, Tog, Gay Fish), it's great to have around.

I'd like to fit Vise in as well, but I find it too unreliable, even though I'm running 13 sources of [non-basic + moxen] Mana Destruction!  Vise is really only good against multi-colour-Control decks, and I find that I keep their hand-size low by casting threat after threat.

Versus Combo, Vise is usually too slow, right.  And versus Aggro it's utterly useless.

Even when Vise is working I'm scared that it won't keep working for long....

Quote Pyrokenisis is good against so much of the aggro field...I think it's definetly worth the sideboard slots.

I considered this in my SB until I discovered that Aggro decks weren't such a tough matchup.  Bolts, Crypts, Boas, Stormbinds and Factories help quite a bit.

Admittedly, I need more testing versus all decktypes to deduce the deck's weaknesses in order to build the best SB to shore the weaknesses up.

Quote I really don't like Zoo with 12 creatures.  These builds come off as Sligh featuring 4 slow (2cc) creatures, a lot less burn (often no PoPs, too), and a mana base that makes Wasteland useful against you.  It really would just be so much better off as Sligh.

I agree, 12 critters is too few.  I think Chain Lightning is weakest of the burn spells listed and the slots could be better filled.  I do like Price of Progress lots, however I like Miners and Wastes more.

Quote Aggro wants to be focussed and consistent.  One-ofs (aside from restricted cards) are jack shit.

Good point 'Cid!  Without Tutors, single cards make little sense.

Quote Really, I just don't see an optimal purpose to Red/Green Zoo, anymore, outside of not owning the blue power and duals.

Ow.  Why can't RG decks reliably beat powered decks?

Just as the Queen is an excellent Chess piece it is often over-relied-upon by both novice and intermediate Chess players alike.  Blue power and duals (all of which I own) are over-emphasized.

Quote Regrowth is questionable, since aggro wants to consistently see threats and burn, not odd utility that will fetch it something it could have just as easily drawn into.

I generally agree, since a pure Aggro deck can spare neither the mana nor time for Regrowth to improve card quality.  However, since I'm running an Aggro:Control deck here, I'd like to run Regrowth.  The only reason I don't is because it's often ass with 'Mancers.

Quote Lastly, 24 slots devoted entirely to mana seems a bit high, even though 8 are thinners.

Stormbind fixes both my Endgame mana flood, and any other dead card problem, ever so nicely.

Incidentally Mith, have you considered using 3-4 Browbeats in your version?  I found that it was too slow and not nearly versatile enough to make the cut despite expectations otherwise.

BTW, I think I recall Pushkin saying that 'Three-Deuce' was called that because it often enchants Miners with Rancors making them 3/2's.  Perhaps I should call my deck [above]'Three-Deuce'.\n\n

[j_orlove]

Quote Quote  
It gives you zero net cards with a single red or green permanent, and one net card if you have both a red and a green permanent.

Jacob, I would consider testing a pair of Ceta Sancs in an RG deck because, while they do not reliably give card advantage, they do reliably improve card quality.

Yes, but Sylvan does that better, and offers immediate card advantage against control decks--where and when you need it most. Still, I can see the appeal of Sanctuary+Stormbind.

What about running something crazy like 4x Sylvan to complement your shufflers and replace the "missing" draw-7s?

And you almost certainly do want more creatures--maybe pups or shamans?

[Malus]

I don't really think Blurred Mongooses are that good.  You're paying 1G for only a 2/1 with mediocre abilities.  It's nice against control decks, but then again, you should already be faster than any control deck.  In any aggro match-up, they tend to be crap since they die to just about any creature.  I'd rather play a River Boa that can be pumped and can be regenerated.  Being able to chump block fatties or deal some trample with Rancor is a lot more useful then something that can't be countered.

On the other hand, Nimble Mongooses tend to be pretty good in most cases.  It only takes a couple turns to fill the graveyard.  After that, you're dropping 3/3's for one mana.  If you don't hit threshold, it isn't much worse than paying 1G for a 2/1 with similar abilities.

Wheel of Fortune is a good card, but I've found it difficult to cast in many games.   Also, you're not going to want it if you're playing against any aggro decks, since they'll only benefit from it.  If you tap out to use wheel, they'll get a whole turn to abuse you.

Wheel of Fortune doesn't really have too much negative synergy with Cursed Scroll, since you'll probably play all the cards you drew relatively quickly anyway.  Being able to use scroll won't really be an issue when you drop a few creatures and cast some burn spells.

Regrowth is useless.  Almost everything in the deck is in multiples, so why not just run another multiple of something.  It's cheaper just to draw a third Sylvan than to Regrowth it and hope to be able to cast it again.

Personally, I run a R/G/W deck.  While blue may have been a preferable third color, white fills the role quite nicely.  StP's, disenchant effects, Wax/Wane, and Savannah Lions  make it worthwhile to run.  The only major problem to worry about is the really janky mana base.  

[Dante]

Razor - have you thought about scald instead of choke?  It comes out faster and applies pain directly instead of waiting for a creature/stormbind.

Dante

[Mith]

I still advocate the untargetable mongeese over playing river boa and rancors. Sure they're good vs. control (The Abyss, StP, etc)...but they've even been great in testing against Sligh. When Sligh looses the ability to burn half your creatures (not to mentiuion that half of them are bigger than pups and cadets), they lose a huge advantage. Creature removal is everywhere, and having weenies that you don't have to worry about make a considerable difference.

I dropped a wasteland and the lotus...and added another hull breach and scroll. At the moment, the deck plays like sligh but with better creatures, a much larger midgame, and a smoother mana draw. Add in the benifits of having nautralize and blood moon in the board, and the deck has certainly been standing up to whatever I play against. Sure it has problems vs. TnT, but then so does Sligh. But this deck handles Mask and GrowATog much better, and it bets Sligh rather consistantly (especially after sideboarding).

Would I play this in a tournament? Probably not...I'd much rather play my GrowATog or Mask. But I would play this over Sligh...control heavy enviornment or not.

The latest version:
Red:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Chain Lightning
4 Kird Ape
4 Gorilla Shaman
1 Wheel of Fortune
Green:
4 Blurred Mongoose
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Sylvan Library
Other:
4 Cursed Scroll
1 Black Vise
2 Hull Breach
Mana:
4 Land Grant
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
2 Mountain
2 Forest
3 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby

Board:
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blood Moon
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Naturalize

[Zherbus]

Moved to Extreme Vintage. This is a healthy and productive discussion that I think can be taken to the next level.

[LoA]

Mith, I like the looks of your build a lot, although I might consider trying to fit the Wasteland and/or Black Lotus back in (but not at the expense of the added Hull Breach).  In a metagame with hastened Juggernauts and Balance, every little bit of tempo advantage for the aggro deck helps.  I'd take out a Scroll and the Vise, possibly moving the Vise to the SB.  It's simply unreliable since you a) have to draw it early and b) have to draw it against the right deck.

[bebe]

I seem to have problems with both builds posted here. Not that I have played r/g beatz in awhile but I did at one time. Now I never really liked the Mongeese builds. Yes they are untargetable but I like to target my creatures. I do like both Rancor and Giant Growth. I consider them almost as extra burn spells allowing me to win a few turns earlier. Even a Shaman becomes a weapon with these.
R/g beatz to me is not at all about control. It's more of a modified Sligh if anything. So why so many lands guys? None of your spells cost that much. I don't get it.
I also do not like Wheels. Sometimes they are very good and sometimes they are very bad. I do not want to gamble on them. This deck top decks so well I really never miss it and a copy of Sylvan is as good or better.

I would play something like this which isd amalgam of both builds - sort of.

3 Cursed Scroll

4 Giant Growth
4 Rancor

Beserk - why not?
Hull Breach
Regrowth - sometimes second Sylvan
Sylvan Library

4 Incinerate
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning

4 Kird Ape
4 River Boa
3 Skyshroud Elite
3 Gorilla Shaman
 

Lands: 19
Mox Emerald
Mox Ruby
Black Lotus
4 Taiga
3 Forest
3 Mountain
Pendelhaven - I always loved playing this
Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
 
sb:
4 Artifact Mutation
2 Jolrael's Centaur
3 Blood Moon
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Tranquil Domain

I really have not changed my deck much since its first iteration. Just added Artifact Mutations to deal with TnT as I hate auto losses and Kegs and it serves both purposes.

Come and get me

[j_orlove]

Bebe: 14 creatures and 8 pump? Isn't that a little risky? And would Reckless Charge be better than Giant Growths? It does give hast, and you get to cast it twice.

Berserk, pendelhaven: while both of these could be fun, it's hard to see them being consistently useful. Sure, there are situations where you'd want either (rancor+GG, or apes+no forests, etc.), but with only 7 forests for the apes, wouldn't a fetchland fit better for the haven? And Berserk just seems less useful than that second Sylvan.

Also, with your creature base, you die to The Abyss. You have a Hull Breach main, and the Domains in the side, but this still seems like a bad idea. Reactive answers <<< Proactive answers. Untargetable creatures mean that you don't just lose to The Abyss.

Basically, your deck looks like a bad version of Red Stompy, or a bad version of Zoo--it's a little too slow to be as good as RS, and not resilient enough to be as good as Zoo.


edit: to avoid a random response to Bebe on the next page, I'll just sum up the crux of my argument again.
Bebe: you say that your deck is too fast for The Abyss. Well, if your solution to Abyss is to race it, why not play Red Stompy? It's easily faster than your deck, it has no colored mana issues, and has a much more aggressive SB.

Actually, your sideboard was what made me question your deck's ability to survive The Abyss. Clearly, you're SBing in reactive answers and non-damaging threats. These will slow down the deck, leading to the reactive answer problem I already mentioned. You don't want to sit there with a Domain in your hand while you wait for The Abyss--you want to play a damage source and beat down. If your deck is all about aggression, shouldn't your SB complement that strategy?

[bebe]

I don't agree with most of those statements and I'll explain why.

I'm certainly not going to worry about Abyss in game one. I can take care of it after sideboarding if necessary but I'm interested in pure speed. I'll lose to a Keg before i lose to an Abyss as a rule and I'm leaving the sidebaord to deal with that as well.

I've liked both Pendelhaven and Beserk. In this deck they are always useful. They are not situational as a Vise might be.

Fourteen creatures are plenty for pump. I rarely7 have had a problem with pump and no creatures.  Reckless Charge might indeed be better in the GG spot at timkes but I like Instants as a a rule over sorveries and I always have a way to use my mana so flashback is iffy.

I prefer Zoo. However, this thread is about r/g. Red Stompy is a very good deck and I think I prefer it. I was commenting on the decks posted here which I think are even slower and less likely to succeed in today's metagame.

[FeverDog]

Bebe, i really dont see why you would include Berserk in here. Considering all your creatures have 1-2 power, the only time Berserk will be any good is if you can use it in conjunction with another pump spell. I also think your deck is a tad low on mana, so i would replace Berserk with another mana source.

[Mith]

While I'd love to have a 4th wasteland and a lotus, I found that they led to a few problems. First of all, 24 mana sources are way too many...mana flood will kill your tempo, and ruin the deck's chance's of winning. Secondly, I found three wastes and a strip to be more than enough...and dropping the 4th waste meant that I didn't get stuck with a one or two wastland opening hand all that often. I also was better able to have the correct starting mana color I needed for whatever one-drop creature I wanted to play first turn. Third, while the lotus was good, the speed it granted wasn't often all that reliable to come early on, and mid to late game it's a dead draw. Overall, the curret configuration of mana seems quite optimal, be it in regards to the fetching power of the deck, or post sideboard with bloodmoon.

I will freely admit that I wish I could run Boa and Rancor...but I wouldn't at the expense of the mongeese. It all depends on how you want the deck to run. With rancor and boa, the deck plays like stompy with burn. Traditionally, this has been what zoo is...an aggro deck with removal/burn. Albiet older versions were R/G/W, the deck still played under those guidelines. My Zoo deck is different...it's not about the fastest creatures, it's about being well rounded in an aggro-control enviornment. Think of it as taking a sligh deck and changing the mana curve to give the deck a better midgame. The deck plays to win in all situations...and the sideboard better helps the deck to adapt. If I were to take the traditional zoo route, I'd run R/G/W...with savannah lions, pups, rancor, StP, and burn. This version of zoo, however, is about the untargetable creatures, and the benifits that come with them.

Just try playing this deck against sligh, where you can burn their creatures, but they can only kill half of yours. Try playing against a deck with misdirects, where they want to redirect your burn at your creatures, but can't. There is nothing sweeter than a first turn nimble and a second turn blurred going the distance while your opponent struggles to find a way to kill them. Fire/Ice? Swords? Bolts? Pyrokenisis? Scroll? Smother? This deck is about being quick, and screwing with your opponent's strategy to deal with quick aggro. And if they keg or pyroclasm, then just play your next nimble mongoose as a 3/3.

And I just have to say this one more time...Blood Moon is the BEST card in the board. Nothing disrupts lands more than that card. Once again, if I were playing the faster version with more one mana for 2/1 creatues, I'd run Scald just like Ankh Sligh does...but this deck is about disrupting your opponent's ablity to deal with your creatures, so blood moon just fits better.

Now if only they'd reprint Jungle Lion from portal...then, I'd shut up about the untargetables and just play twelve 2/1 fast beats  What a pretty deck that would be...with rancors, bolts, swords...hmm, maybe I'll write to Wizards afterall

[FeverDog]

Just for reference, early Zoo builds were not RGW, but rather 5 color, and they really didnt look anything like today's Zoo builds.

As for the creature base, its always a difficult choice between the Blurred/Nimble duo and the Boa/Elite team. Obviously being untargetable is an excellent ability, it protects them from nearly all removal, yet Rancor is so strong that it makes you really think about it. Both configurations can work very well, and each one is stronger in different matchups, so i guess it really comes down to what you expect to face. I have always preferred the Mongeese myself, but it really is a matter of preference.

One last note, i really oppose the use of Wheel of Fortune in weenie-based aggro decks. I dont think any Sligh or Zoo variant should be running the card for one main reason: you are out-gunned by almost every deck out there. In almost every matchup, the opposing deck has more broken cards than you do and can really make you pay for giving them 7 cards. Now, obviously, if your opponent is at 3 life then its worth it, but most of the time you do not want to give Keeper/Mask/TNT/Tog/Gro a new hand. Tapping out for Wheel and then passing the turn to one of those decks(with a fresh hand) can result in some major carnage.

[Deletehead]

This is the one type one archetype I feel comfortable commenting on. The one card that would
really put this deck over the top in the control matchup is
Price of Progress, It's also pretty good late game versus TnT.
I've gone through several different builds but the two that
are the best would be something like Mith's with untargetable
critters, like so...

Artifact:7
4 Cursed Scroll
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

Green:16
4 River Boa (This guy gets around keg and slithers past Morphling, he can also block Juggernaut and Su-Chi making
him indispensable in my opinion...)
4 Blurred Mongoose
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Land Grant

Gold:3
3 Hull Breach

Red:16
4 Kird Ape
4 Price of Progress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning/Incinerate

Land:18
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
5 Forest
5 Mountain

This version is basically a more versatile Sligh build and is quite
good especially with Land Grant and Foothills thinning out the
deck. The one I play goes in a more stompyish direction though...

Artifact:7
4 Cursed Scroll
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

Green:17
4 Albino Troll (With such a low mana curve the echo is negligible and he turns into a regnerating, trampling Juggy
with rancor...)
4 River Boa
4 Elvish Lyrist
4 Rancor
1 Berserk (It's nice to be able to take advantage of this card
with Charge and Rancor...)

Red:16
4 Kird Ape
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Reckless Charge
4 PoP

Land:20
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
6 Forest
6 Mountain

This version seems pretty janky but it's FAST with a capital
F and has never done me wrong, the previous build  it is probably better in a conventional sense but I'll play this because I'm stubborn, anyway I really love R/G and think
it doesn't get the props it deserves, so I really appreciate this
discussion, keep it rollin'...

[Razor]

Dante: I'll look into testing Scald if I ever build a pure Aggro RG deck.  The decklist I posted is focussed on establishing board control first via land denial - winning later via beatdown and direct damage.

Deletheead: The second deck you just posted looks like pure R/G Aggro - sweet.  However, it has little versatility.  It has little board control/disruption (4 'Mancers, 4 Lyrists, 0 Wastes).  It has just 4 sources of direct damage (4 PoPs).  It will doubtless have trouble with: Pyroclasm, Moat, Humility, Abyss, etc.

RE: Berserk. I wouldn't use it in a weenie deck unless I had at least 6 other pump spells to give it a chance of being useful.

RE: Wheel of Fortune. FeverDog and BeBe you guys brought up some really good food for thought.  I may drop Wheel altogether, since it is a gamble.  Wheel only began to make the cut with the addition of Stormbind and Lavamancers when I dropped Browbeat.  I may try a Sylvan Library in its slot.

RE: Pendelhaven is an ok choice, but aren't man-lands scarier?  Pendelhaven is sometimes weaker than a basic forest when you're running Blood Moons and using Kird Apes.

BTW, where are your man-lands?  (Treetops and Factories)

I shall continue testing RG Aggro:Control, focussing on mana disruption and board control over beats.

How are your decks faring against typical tourney decks:
SuiBlack
TnT
URPhidian
Keeper
Gro
Parfait
Academy
etc.

PS. Has anyone else noticed that Yavimaya Hollow can really annoy opponents?  I've been unable to fit in another colourless mana source, hence it hasn't made the cut just yet.

[Mith]

I agree with dropping the Wheel. What I'm going to put in that slot, I'm not sure...maybe the 4th Waste.

On a sidenote, I wrote to Wizards asking them to reprint Jungle Lion in the future...maybe they'll listen

[Razor]

While I was archiving piles of threads I stumbled across these four RG Zoo Tourney Reports from late 2002:
------------------------------------
http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....;t=1967

Two RG Zoo-type decks are posted in this thread.  Interestingly, Ace of Jacks actually won with his "Burning Zoo" at Neutral Ground.
------------------------------------
http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....;t=1456

The deck in here placed second.
-----------------------------------
Another of Ace of Jack's threads:
http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....;t=1294

Apparently, he beat a Mono-B and Keeper deck to take first.
------------------------------------
URL=http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=1310;hl=rg+and+zoo]http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....and+zoo[/URL]

7th at Gencon Aug 2002, 8 Mongeese build

================================

For the sake of completeness, here are three recent RG Zoo threads:
------------------------------------
http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....and+zoo

Lots of decks in here.
------------------------------------
http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....and+zoo

A deck featuring Shamans, Miners and Chokes....
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http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....and+zoo

Huge General Zoo Discussion Aug 2002
------------------------------------\n\n

[Dante]

Razor,
    Definitely replace the Wheel with something, whether it's sylvan library or Incinerate.  I've found that unless you're playing with 10+ cheap bolts/burn, your opponent will be helped more by the Wheel than you.

How do you fare against Gro decks?

Dante

[kirdape3]

4x Kird Ape
4x Gorilla Shaman
4x Blurred Mongoose
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Skyshroud Elite

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Incinerate

3x Cursed Scroll
2x Naturalize

2x Sylvan Library

1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x Taiga
3x Forest
3x Mountain

Sideboard:
2x Naturalize
3x Blood Moon
4x Scald
(insert 6 random cards here that represent your metagame)

This deck is simple.  Get threshold early by burning everything in sight (against Sligh, go to the head if you want, since they can't deal with a Nimble Mongoose at threshold).  Run your guys into theirs if they have them; otherwise don't be stupid and play around Balance.

[waSP]

I'm glad that someone has been paying attention to this deck, because i've found such great success with it.

I'll begin my post by giving my current list.

R/G Aggro
// Creatures
        4 River Boa
        4 Kird Ape
        3 Call of the Herd
        3 Gorilla Shaman
// Burn
        4 Lightning Bolt
        4 Incinerate
        4 Cursed Scroll
        1 Chain Lightning
// Other
        4 Naturalize
        3 Rancor
// Land
        4 Taiga
        4 Wasteland
        4 Treetop Village
        4 Wooded Foothills
        3 Mountain
        3 Forest
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Strip Mine
// Sideboard
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  4 Artifact Mutation
SB:  3 Anarchy
SB:  2 Chain Lightning
SB:  2 Tormod's Crypt

First I'll start off by explaining my less than obvious choices.  Gorilla Shaman.  Not running 4 gorilla shamans seems something that isn't that common, but I've found that the decks they are good against aren't that common in my meta.  Against control they absorb a counter or make them hold back.  Against TnT they slow the play down a little.  TnT playing out there hand is what needs to happen for you to win that matchup, and the mox monkey isn't that important.  Against most other decks (that i see) he's a weak threat.  I find him good enough to run 3.

Call of the Herd.  Usually the best creature card to draw in this deck.  Unless i go first turn Kird Ape with rancor in hand this will be the best creature.  He is card advantage (crucial against control), spreads out the CC of your threats, and is a sizable beater.

Cursed Scroll.  An absolute beating against nearly everything it gets active against.  I like this a whole lot more than a combination of Sylvan Library and Stormbind because i run so many mana sources.

Chain Lightning.  I used to run a random card in this slot such as Sylvan Library, Stormbind, or Uktabi Orangutan but found the deck usually wanted a quick burn spell to stay competitive.  With my inability to run a 5th lightning bolt i opted for this.

Naturalize.  Find me 2 viable matchups this is dead against and i will pull them from the mainboard.

Rancor.  Functions as removal for bigger creatures when your mox monkey or kird apes trade late game.  Affordable reusable pumping does not exist outside of horribly undercosted cards in other colors (nantuko shade, morphling).

Treetop Village.  This card is absolutely amazing.  He gets around the abyss.  He is larger than mishra's.  He can trade with Jug if necessary.  He can be rancor'd.  The only reason I'd cut these is if my metagame for some reason became blood moon sligh (will never happen).

26 total mana sources.  5 wastes gives me only 21 which is much more reasonable, especially with treetops.  The action of disrupting your opponent early can steal many games that you should have won.  The extra mana late game feeds your scrolls.

My sideboard is reflective of who what i need to beat to win in my meta.  The artifact mutations are amazing against TnT unless they have an active welder and that leads me to the Chain Lightnings.  They are what i can take out Naturalize for against aggro decks not running artifacts or enchantments that need to be removed.

Red Blasts seem to be missing from the new decklists I'm seeing but maybe those are just for designated metagame slots.  Blue based control is extremely popular here and the Red Blasts often provide the tempo advantage necessary.

Anarchy.  Goes in against Parfait (a complete beating).  These are removed if there are 0-1 parfait decks at a tourney.

Tormod's Crypt.  Absolutely necessary against nearly all combo, especially Dragon.  Also useful against TnT if you can fit them.

I don't run Scald because its often absolutely worthless.  The good control player understands how to play around it and will.

I run excessive nonbasics so blood moon is out, as is PoP.

This deck has favorable matchups (for me) against a large portion of the T1 metagame.

TnT is a little under 50%.

Gro is around 75% for me.

Gro-a-Tog is significantly lower, although i haven't tested it enough.  It might be enough to warrant adding pyroblasts to the board.

Keeper was hated out of the metagame awhile ago.  But i go at least 50% against it.

Sui Black seems to easy.  Masticore complicates things, but artifact mutations in the board will help take care of that.

Urphid is tough and all depends on how quick a start you get and how good each players topdecks are.  I'd call it an even match.

Academy is the second toughest (parfait is the toughest).  I'd say between 35 and 45.

Onto Parfait.  Bottoms out at 0  really its 25% to 35%.

Other notable matchups.

Sligh.  One night i went something like 7-0 against sligh.
Another night i went 0-4.  It's all about how good your hands are.

B/G Sui.  Although this deck isn't very common here a few play it.  I win if they don't play dark ritual on their first or second turn.

That's about all i have to say about the deck right now.  I'd love to add further input to how the deck is played in the future.

[Razor]

I suddenly noticed that none of our decks are abusing Winter Orb.  Should they be?  Abuse of Winter Orbs might even make Werebears/Lawnmower Elves at least a consideration.

Dante: Sorry, insufficient testing to date.  I agree re: Wheel comments.

waSP: I may just have to test Call since you're raving about it so much.  Why not drop the lone Chain for the fourth Rancor?  Nice post, btw.\n\n

[waSP]

The rancor was something i used to run 4 of.  The 2 rancor hand is not good against something with 1 or more removal spells in it usually.  If i took out some burn for more threats i would add a 4th rancor (in addition to something like reckless charge and probably berserk), but i like the current status of the burn.

I've found that a lot of the popular decks like functioning under a winter orb and aren't hurt much by it.  My deck (with the villages) played a 4 color zoo that utilized winter orbs and i just smashed in.  Running Winter Orb will generally have you run smaller threats.  Then you have a weaker deck.  As a result you don't win so much.

[Mith]

Gush gets around Winter Orb...which is why I run the Blood Moons. I'm not so sure about Artifact Mutation...I guess if your env has a lot of TnT...but other than that, I'd rather have naturalize. I did try out the Calls in my deck...with Rancors, they're pretty sweet. But once you start running three casting cost creatures (and ones that require open mana like boas), the deck's mana curve and playing style change completely.

On a side note...waSP, all the deck you seem to be having problems with, I have great success against. Try out the untargetables, and see just how good they are vs. just about the entire field  Keeper and URphid are two decks I haven't lost more than once to because of my untagetables/uncounterables...and GrowATog and Keeper lose to an early Bloodmoon.

[waSP]

Keeper basically doesn't exist in my environment and i had tried out the blurred mongoose, although i had at that time been running a little less burn.  I found that the blurred mongoose had trouble chumping an ophidian (i need to be able to do this to win) so i cut them and started looking for substitutes.  I found Call of the Herd and haven't gone back because they are so amazing.

Treetop Village is basically an untargetable and is usually very good against the control matchups when it gets active.  For this reason my version doesn't like blood moon.  

If i adjust my sideboard Growatog because favorable.  Additional pyroblasts make togs not so scary.  The dryads aren't generally a problem.  I really need to test with my version though to see how it fares.

[Deletehead]

Would Winter Orb be good??? I think so, I mean every relevant
card in the deck is 1 or two mana and the late game is where
this deck kinda sucks so I guess Worb would make things more
interesting, but it has really poor synergy with Scroll so you
kinda have to pick one or the other, and I think I'd prefer the
Scroll...