TnT with black: Legion

[Zherbus]

First the updated list:

Legion
Creatures (16)
        4 Juggernaut
        4 Su-Chi
        1 Quirion Ranger
        2 Triskelion
        1 Masticore
        1 Anger
        1 Gorilla Shaman
        1 Elvish Lyrist
        1 Uktabi Orangutan
Engine (12)
        4 Survival of the Fittest
        4 Goblin Welder
        2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
        2 Oath of Ghouls
Broken things (4)
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Wheel of Fortune
        1 Memory Jar
Lands (28)
        3 Wooded Foothill
        2 Windswept Heath
        1 Grim Monolith
        2 Forest
        4 Mishra´s Workshop
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Wasteland
        4 Taiga
        3 Bayou
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
SB:  3 Bloodmoon
SB:  3 Duress
SB:  2 Naturalize
SB:  1 Elvish Lyrist
SB:  1 Oath of Ghouls
SB:  1 Bottle Gnomes
SB:  1 Bone Shredder
SB:  3 Tormod's Crypt

Oath of Ghouls can allow for the abuse of many utility creatures. Mainly it is a weapon against control to let you continually cast Welders and other must counters (like Lyrist). Lately, R/G/u and R/G variants have been slipping a bit against control, Keeper in particular, since we are getting used to the strategy used to beat them.

I think adding black is a logical step in the right direction as it can also strengthen the combo matchup with Duress to help force through things like Bloodmoon or rip a combo piece from his hand. I don't expect to realistically have a good matchup against combo, but I don't exactly think it is a lost cause either.

Another thing I did was cut 2 Wastelands as I typically hate seeing them. It opened up some space for the rest of the deck and I am quite happy with that decision. FeverDog seems to think I should go ahead and cut the rest, but I feel safe at 2 Strips.

[Matt The Great]

I like it, mainly because I never found Genesis to be quite good enough, and the Oaths replace him nicely. Have you ever considered running a Krovikan Horror over the second Squee?

Also, since you have Oaths now, what about Keldon Vandals over Uktabi? The echo lets it kill itself, making it much easier to recur (and thus abuse the CIP effect). Additionally, the four power trades with any tubby. That would probably dominate the mirror.\n\n

[FeverDog]

Having playtested this version for several weeks, i can attest to its greatness. This is by far the most powerful build of TNT you can play in my opinion, the black cards just have much better synergy with the rest of the deck than the blue power.

My only question is about the mana. Do you find 28 sources is enough? I have never gone below 29 myself, because i find the deck extremely mana-hungry, especially 3 color versions.

Apart from that, the single Wasteland seems uneeded to me  

[Zherbus]

Quote I like it, mainly because I never found Genesis to be quite good enough, and the Oaths replace him nicely. Have you ever considered running a Krovikan Horror over the second Squee?

Also, since you have Oaths now, what about Keldon Vandals over Uktabi? The echo lets it kill itself, making it much easier to recur (and thus abuse the CIP effect). Additionally, the four power trades with any tubby. That would probably dominate the mirror.

Actually BOTH ideas I thought of. The horror is a possibility still, but I don't really feel safe casting it which seems to be the only noticble bonus. Really the point of Squee number two isn't to be greedy with Survival, but to have backup for Ebony Charm or Crypt.

On the Uktabi: Really, I did consider that but vandles really cost too much for my liking. Also, unless the Sex Monkey gets STP'd, I see it chumping and recurring itself that way. If Vandles cost one less, it would be such an easy choice. I did impliment the echo idea with Bone Shredder in the SB, which takes care of random things like Reanimator, Gro, and whatever else.

Quote Having playtested this version for several weeks, i can attest to its greatness. This is by far the most powerful build of TNT you can play in my opinion, the black cards just have much better synergy with the rest of the deck than the blue power.

My only question is about the mana. Do you find 28 sources is enough? I have never gone below 29 myself, because i find the deck extremely mana-hungry, especially 3 color versions.

Apart from that, the single Wasteland seems uneeded to me  

Yeah, blue just never did much outside of the occasional broken play. However, I also refused to ever use Tinker in this deck as I purely hate the card.

I have found 28 sources to be just fine, though the Ranger has become more important than in past versions of TnT.

The single Wasteland wouldn't be there if people weren't starting to run Maze of Ith for stuff like Gro-a-Tog and Masknought. Otherwise, I agree with you fully. If it was to go, I would either get a 4th Bayou or another basic forest.

[Nameless]

If I were going to cut down on the Wastelands and abuse Oath of Ghouls with CiP creatures the first on my list would be Avalanche Riders.  Using Oath instead of Genesis to retreive them means that at 3R per turn your killing a land and swinging for 2...  I'm not sure, but I've heard that can be pretty damn good.  Especially since a counter just buys them a land for a turn...

Oh yea, and you MUST SB a Filth.  That would be just too good against any deck sporting Black.
 \n\n

[Zherbus]

Nameless, I have no idea why that never occured to me, but I think thats worth a shot. The only reservation I have is that 4 NON-Workshop mana might be too slow, but its definetly worth a shot for testing.

EDIT: I did test Flith actually! It is a great card against Mask, but thats about it. You already give dirty sanchez's to Suicide, Void, and even Gro-A-Tog. If I were to expect mask, this card might be the tech to use.

[Matt The Great]

I'd just like to note that Krovikan also is some insurance against both Moat (acting as a third, lesser Triskelion) and StP. I don't know if that's enough utility to push it over the edge, but the points should be made for completeness' sake.

EDIT: Filth is also a semi-wonder against even such dekcs as Keeper...go Underground Sea! \n\n

[urza's child]

Wow, VERY interesting. The addition of Oath o' Ghouls is an interesting one, but necessary. What happens if theyre playing some aggro, something like sligh or sui that gets a lot of cards in the graveyard? It only helps them because you might play it with the advantage, but not end up with it. But as said before, IMHO Avalanche Riders are a must. They really are too good with Ghouls. I'm very interested with any testing that people will/are doing, so please keep me and everyone else updated on it!

[walking dude]

have you considered oversold cemetary, its a one sided oath of ghouls that requires you to have 4 creatures in the grave. Its a tad less good against control, but would be much better in the mirror b/c its not symetrical. Also if you stack with style you can get squee to count as one of the 4 creatures so you really only need 3.

[Anonymous]

I would also like to add that I have found 28 sources to be the correct number of mana sources. If your testing was done on apprentice that might be the reason that is seems like this deck would run better off 29-30 sources.

   I also think it would benefitial to give your explanation of the use of the card Wheel of Fortune which many other forms of TNT have dropped.

   Finally I concur with FeverDog that in this version of TNT no strips or wastes should be run. This is probably the most mana intensive deck and with a three color mana base non colored producing lands dilute the deck.

   Also Steve, unlike the R/G/U version of this deck the R/G form does not really have a standard and should not be as generalized as the former, though your point was made.
                           
-Max J.

[walking dude]

No strips or wastes is asking to lsoe to random stuff like glacial chasm

[Anonymous]

The only competitive deck that runs a land card that would completely shut you down is turbo nyvrral and TNT doesn't ever like combo!

[j_orlove]

Plus, the Chasm has a cumulative upkeep. And Blood Moon neutralizes it.

Seriously, the only land I'd really be afraid of is Library, and possibly Maze of Ith.

[FeverDog]

The only non-basic thats really scary is Library, but i dont see a deck being able to sit back and draw off it against TNT, the deck just has too many threats. I havent run any Wastes in my TNT in months, and i have never missed them at all, i think the deck just wants colored mana way more than Wastes.

[Zherbus]

Quote Wow, VERY interesting. The addition of Oath o' Ghouls is an interesting one, but necessary. What happens if theyre playing some aggro, something like sligh or sui that gets a lot of cards in the graveyard?  

No other deck, except maybe TnT can compete with me filling the graveyard with creatures. I have Survival, remember?

Quote have you considered oversold cemetary, its a one sided oath of ghouls that requires you to have 4 creatures in the grave. Its a tad less good against control, but would be much better in the mirror b/c its not symetrical. Also if you stack with style you can get squee to count as one of the 4 creatures so you really only need 3.

I have tried, and tested it. Really, most aggro is no problem so I really do gun for control and aggro-control. I find Oath of Ghouls better equiped for that.

Quote Also Steve, unlike the R/G/U version of this deck the R/G form does not really have a standard and should not be as generalized as the former, though your point was made.

As long as you got my Jive, yo.

Quote No strips or wastes is asking to lsoe to random stuff like glacial chasm

Which is why I haven't quite gone as far as FeverDog, but I still may.

[BigChuck]

Yeah. There isn't really much you need to kill. If anything, I think they are at there best just slowing the opponent down. Library is a good target, but like 'dog said, it shouldn't get much use anyway. Honestly, I think this is just the right amount to be able to disrupt someone enough to win.

[jpmeyer]

Am I the only person that got confused by the title of this thread and started looking really hard for some Legions cards in this deck?

[urza's child]

Quote (jpmeyer @ Feb. 10 2003,21:30)Am I the only person that got confused by the title of this thread and started looking really hard for some Legions cards in this deck?

Yes. It's called Legion (Not LEGIONS, like the set) Because you get a constant flow of creatures, or Legions.  

[Piggy]

Quote Am I the only person that got confused by the title of this thread and started looking really hard for some Legions cards in this deck?

Looking a little too hard for some decent T1 cards in legions huh?  What a shame.
I think you may have solved my only problem with the deck by finding a resonable way to recur things.(I wasn't a big fan of Genesis)Just mainly wanted to say good job on the continued POSITIVE development of TNT rather than diluting a good thing like so many evolutions seem to do.

[TunaBoo]

Is living death playable? For 3BB you get to dump your entire graveyard into play. It would be funny

[Matt The Great]

Black is only a splash...so no.

[Nameless]

I'm glad you caught onto the Avalanche Riders tech, it'll cut down your Strip/Waste requirement to just a line Strip Mine, I'm quite sure.

As far as Living Death goes...  I just have to tell this little war story:  One of my friends was playing Rock in our FNM a couple of weeks back splashing Red with a single Mountain for Terminates, and 3x Living Wish for SB FTK and Anger.  It was pretty smooth when on his 4th turn he Buried Alive for 3x Spiritmonger, 5th turn he Living Wished for Anger and hard cast it, and on turn 6 proceeded to cast Living Death; which put 3x Spiritmonger and a Yavimaya Elder into play with Haste.  From left field he's suddenly swinging for 20, it was cool.  Living Death has cool tricks to it, but I'd have to agree that it just doesn't work in this deck as a splash.

I dig the Horror idea though, it would give you a way to sacrafice and recast a few creatures the hard way as an alternate win in a pinch.  Hell, being able to sac a sided FTK to shock something and then cast it again for the 4 would ravage Sligh and Sui with just those 2 cards.  That's not a bad deal either.

Overall I like the idea of TnT with Black over Blue.  The increased tutoring power helps find Survival better, and since all the TnT players seem to tell me they'd play with 8 Survival's if they could then I guess this isn't a bad deal.

There is one thing that's popping in my head though...  My friend using TnT tried using a Gaea's Cradle as opposed to Forest #2, and while I don't know if anyone else has tried this it seems to work very well for him.  Even when it's only generating GG or GGG it's quite good with Survival, but it's been known to get out of hand a time or two.

Also, what about the possible addition of Recurring Nightmare over Oath of Ghouls #2?  It's just an idea, so it's not like I tested it or anything, but I'm just brainstorming here.  While I'm also thinking about it, have you considered the possibility of 3 Oath of Ghouls, just to make sure you get it?  Between the tutoring and such it seems like that might be the right number, as it's also as important to get out as Survival itself.  The combo of those two cards in this deck looks like it would seal the game up nice and tight, and that's what you're wanting, right?

Also, have you missed having Ancestral, Time Walk, or Wonder at all?  I doubt Wonder has been an issue, but what about the Time Walk?  I've found it can be especially devastating to resolve in TnT before and was just wondering how it worked out without it this time around.
 \n\n

[Zherbus]

Oath of Ghouls #3 is certainly a tweak I would consider if the control element was strong enough. That's what the original version had, but the problem was that drawing one when OOG was already in place was kinda lame.

Living Death is good...in a deck that can cast it with some sort of regularity.

As far as the blue element? Wonder was rarely needed to win. Ancestral and Walk are always nice, but I think the Oaths make up for the card advantage in a way. The only 1 card I really miss is Time Walk, but that's not enough to make me go back to blue.

I also think it is safe to say this is a EVF worthy topic, so here it goes...

Moved to the Extreme Vintage Forum.

[bebe]

I'm not as keen on adding black as everyone else is. We did try it but I am one of those who really likes the blue in the deck especially Time Walk and Tinker - debate this all you like but I have made broken plays with this card since both Jar  Colossus, 'Core and Trisk are all in the deck.

Bene tested a black version in Dulmen and I did correspond with a few German players on the inclusion of black when I built Workshop Pox. They were never able to win consistently with black over blue. Pox, BTW, can be game breaking with a Workshop but getting the black mana requires revamping the mana base totally.

On Avalanche Riders - seems pretty expensive and Wastes and Strips still cannot be countered - not that this is huge seeing everything in the deck is a big drain target but one Rider does not make great sense to me.

Yes Tutors are great. But two Sylvans and fetches seem to work so well in the deck that I do not see them as essential. Sylvans win me games. But the biggest reason i see for blue now - you will laugh at this - is the inclusion of a single Waterfront Bouncer. Lord of Goats brought this up and testing against Gro-a-Tog and standard Gro - both common - have made ne a firm believer in this tech. TnT with blue eats those decks now. I also side the Gilded Drake for Mask and mirror.

Wonder > Filth. Let's get serious. Genesis is more than good enough for my recursion purposes. Oath of Gouls is great tech but I work with Genesis well.

The single Gaeas Cradle looks interesting and with Sylvans you just might be able to find it. I think i will test it out.

[Zherbus]

Its got nothing to do with Pox. It has to do with Oath of Ghouls and Tutors. Did you test TnT with Oath? The tutors alone are almost enough reason to play black for me. In a traditional TnT, if a Survival gets countered for example, you have to rely on topdecking another. With the tutors, it can be like running 6 Survivals if need be, or 4 Oath of Ghouls, or whatever.

Quote But the biggest reason i see for blue now - you will laugh at this - is the inclusion of a single Waterfront Bouncer. Lord of Goats brought this up and testing against Gro-a-Tog and standard Gro - both common - have made ne a firm believer in this tech. TnT with blue eats those decks now.

That tech is good, but honestly how bad is the Gro matchup? Besides, though I can't touch the Tog with it, I can ace Dryads with a Bone Shredder. Really, any build of TnT R/G, R/G/u, or my own will generally have a good matchup against Gro already.

About Sylvan though, I may work one or two into the deck if I ever find the lack of solid card drawing needed.

[Nameless]

Quote (Zherbus @ Feb. 11 2003,08:45)Oath of Ghouls #3 is certainly a tweak I would consider if the control element was strong enough. That's what the original version had, but the problem was that drawing one when OOG was already in place was kinda lame.

Multiple OoG's would stack, just as Oath of Druids, so you can use multiples in play.  3x OoG's would simply allow you to get not only an Oath in play, but allow you to more consistantly retreive multiple creatures.

Quote (bebe @ Feb. 11 2003,09:15)On Avalanche Riders - seems pretty expensive and Wastes and Strips still cannot be countered - not that this is huge seeing everything in the deck is a big drain target but one Rider does not make great sense to me.

The single Gaeas Cradle looks interesting and with Sylvans you just might be able to find it. I think i will test it out.

While I would agree that it is a nice Drain target I'd just add this I'm still saying the deck should retain a single Strip Mine, but also that 1x Wasteland doesn't seem to do the job that would be better served by boosting the mana base.  That LD slot is replaced in the creature base by a Riders not only because it can make things nasty with recursion, but because lets face it, even if they do Drain it they'd better be able to explode with that 4 mana, because they're going to be loosing a land each turn after that.

The Cradle can and does make things a bit retarded sometimes.  The mana it can start to generate gets insane in the mid-late game quite easily.  I'd seriously reccomend trying it out in ANY version of TnT, though the Black versions seems more likely to actually get it with the tutors and all.
 

[Lord of the Goats]

Quote (bebe @ Feb. 11 2003,07:15)Yes Tutors are great. But two Sylvans and fetches seem to work so well in the deck that I do not see them as essential. Sylvans win me games. But the biggest reason i see for blue now - you will laugh at this - is the inclusion of a single Waterfront Bouncer. Lord of Goats brought this up and testing against Gro-a-Tog and standard Gro - both common - have made ne a firm believer in this tech. TnT with blue eats those decks now. I also side the Gilded Drake for Mask and mirror.

i'm with bebe on this one. bouncer owns gro and gro-tog. my experience with gro tog shows that it's not in tnt's favor unless tnt can get bouncer. regular gro is a pretty easy matchup though. don't forget that drake doesn't neutralize a dreadnaught, it puts it on the opposite side of the table.

sylvans do something comparable to oaths. sylvan draws and searched while oath recurs. my games don't last long enough to really see a difference since i sylvan very aggressivly and the end in a very short order... or genesis recursion is good enough. my only problem with oath is that i absolutly hate the utility creatures in tnt as it is. the only md utility that i run is 1 shaman (and a core). i've never felt the need to recur utility creatures outside of genesis.

recuring fat is good, but that's what welders do and i havn't found that to be inadequate.

if control is big, md bloodmoons are a beating and the smack combo around like a redheaded stepchild. i just don't see the need for black at this point

[urza's child]

Quote (Lord of the Goats @ Feb. 11 2003,11:46)

Quote (bebe @ Feb. 11 2003,07:15)Yes Tutors are great. But two Sylvans and fetches seem to work so well in the deck that I do not see them as essential. Sylvans win me games. But the biggest reason i see for blue now - you will laugh at this - is the inclusion of a single Waterfront Bouncer. Lord of Goats brought this up and testing against Gro-a-Tog and standard Gro - both common - have made ne a firm believer in this tech. TnT with blue eats those decks now. I also side the Gilded Drake for Mask and mirror.

i'm with bebe on this one. bouncer owns gro and gro-tog. my experience with gro tog shows that it's not in tnt's favor unless tnt can get bouncer. regular gro is a pretty easy matchup though. don't forget that drake doesn't neutralize a dreadnaught, it puts it on the opposite side of the table.

sylvans do something comparable to oaths. sylvan draws and searched while oath recurs. my games don't last long enough to really see a difference since i sylvan very aggressivly and the end in a very short order... or genesis recursion is good enough. my only problem with oath is that i absolutly hate the utility creatures in tnt as it is. the only md utility that i run is 1 shaman (and a core). i've never felt the need to recur utility creatures outside of genesis.

recuring fat is good, but that's what welders do and i havn't found that to be inadequate.

if control is big, md bloodmoons are a beating and the smack combo around like a redheaded stepchild. i just don't see the need for black at this point

Wow I'm actually REALLY suprised that you didn't like this deck more than you do. I don't really get how you can say that black isnt very needed. But then again neither is blue. It has tutors, which is a HUGE part. Like said before, it's like have 6 Survivals, or whatever you need. Also, OoG can get some amazing combos goin. And has anyone tried to add 1 or 2 sylvan libraries in? Because I think that it would only make it better.

Posts merged. YES, there is an edit feature. -Zherbus

Sorry about the double post (Is there an edit function???) But is Quirion Ranger REALLY necessary? Same with MD Ukatabi O. I mean sure theyre helpful, but I'd much rather have cards that could help me win faster, more than just survive. Maybe keep the quirion ranger because it IS great against other aggro decks, but the monkey I just dont see having such an important use. When I get home I'll try testing with 1 Avalance Rider over 1 Wasteland and 1 Sylvan Library over 1 Mox Monkey and I'll tell you how the breif testing goes. I just think that sylvan libraries are HUGE, and really do win the game.

[Zherbus]

I'm not suprised that he didn't like it more. If you had a fantastic record with TnT, you would be sold on your version and less likely be ready to jump to another. I feel the same way about my Keeper, other peoples versions are not for me.

I am personally not going to say this is the only way to go, but I developed this for months because R/G/u seems to be lacking. Sure its good, but how many Keeper players have learned how to beat it? Lots. I told myself, and others involved with my decisions that if R/G/b was to fail, I would lean towards favoring R/G with no third color.

@Nameless: Yeah, I'm going to work a 3rd OoG in over something, but what? My first instinct is the 2nd Triskellion or Uktabi.

@urza's child: The ranger is there to support the low land count my version has. I REALLY need to protect my duals and the insane things you can do with a welder is worth it.

[bebe]

The first black versions we tested were yours Zherbus. They did the same in Germany ( yes, you are famous  ). I just never found they improved any of my bad match ups, ie, combo ( mask and AoS ) or monoblue. Sylvans are great. Make no mistake about this. With fetchlands and Survivals thay are mini, reusable tutors. As Lord of Goats said, against control and combo you can be aggressive using them and I would add them to your deck.

I must note that you are quite correct. Lord of Goats and I have been very successful with similar builds - I'm not sure who is copying who anymore. I do not main deck Uktabi, Genesis, Wonder, et all. I have cut down on utility creatures as much as possible. They stay in the side. Anger, Lyricist, Ranger and now Bouncer are all I need main.  Even Shaman was replaced by kartn as it is a beatstick in itself. On Ranger, it is needed in my build. Apart from helping against hate, it untaps my Colossus or gets me an extra Survival a turn. It is much better than the single BoP some people use.

Do not underestimate the usefulness of Bouncer in some matchups. Apart from Gro it has other uses. I've bounced my own Welder more than once in response to removal. Blue has great synergy with TnT.  

I think I need to be fair and give your newest build a better look. I do not want to demean it out of hand based on previous testing. A number of new ideas have been put forth here.