FEB - better than it looks

[bebe]

We have been testing a few versions of FEB lately looking for the best way to play the deck. We decided that aggro-combo needed to be very proactive and that a G/b/u build seemed to utilize the combo components best.

The Combo (8)
---------------
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Volrath's Shapeshifter


Aggressive Creatures (6)
------------------------
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Flowstone Hellion
Phage the Untouchable
Psychatog
Hypnox
Morphling

Recurring Creatures (3)
-----------------------
Reya Dawnbringer
Squee, Goblin Nabob
Genesis

Disruption (8)
--------------
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy

Restricted (4)
--------------
Ancestral Recall
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Time Walk

Extra (2)
---------
2 Unearth

Mana (29)
---------
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Roots
4 Windswept Heath
3 City of Brass
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Forests
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire


sb:
Bottle Gnomes
Boneshredder
Uktabi Orangutan
Elvish Lyricist
Meddling Mage
Illusionary Mask
3 Naturalize
3 Tornod's Crypt
3 Chill
kill cards
Let's look at the possible kill cards first. Phage can work if you use inkshrouder and then send it to the graveyard.
As good as this trick is we found that it worked somewhat erractically to say the least. It is very easy to disrupt. Still it is a viable win condition that can upset some decks if played early enough.
Psychatog is much more reliable as an early blocker and a means to fill the graveyard. It also is a viable route to victory.
Flowstone/Dreadnaught is the common path to victory.

The utility
We added a Mask to help get the Dreadnaught ( or any other creature ) out beneath a counter deck. Although it seems pretty random it is fairly easy to find with tutors and deck thinning. This was one of the major changes to the deck.
The other major change was the addition of Cabal Therapy. This allowed us to sac the BoPs before they were destroyed to interfere with the combo elements. Duress/Therapy proved better than counters in the deck.
The creatures are pretty much FEB staples other than the Inkshrouder which functions as an extra Survival.

mana -
Notice that Wall of Roots has also been eliminated. It really doesn't speed up the deck much.
The idea is to eliminate as many cards as possible that interfere with the combo components. Wastelands and Shamans remain the biggest problems for the deck as it stands and you need to play around these cards carefully.
Two forests help to overcome some of these weaknesses.

Sideboarding -
Mage helps against control and combo as does the extra Mask.
Chill and Bottle Gnomes make it pretty resiliant to Sligh.
There are numerous cards to bring in for TnT and Naturalize helps against Parfait as well.
Crypts are useful in many match ups from Pandeburst to Reanomator and TnT. It also serves in the mirror.


I had thought that the deck would be fairly inconsistent but after playing it awhile we found that it was stronger against combo then expected, played aggro very well and could compete at least with control.
I confess that I was a little surprised at the results. I think the deck deserves a closer look and may be stronger than some suspect.\n\n

[Gabethebabe]

Rules question: what do you mean: "Phage can only work if you survival it into the graveyard or use inkshrouder and then play a shifter."
You can play a shifter and discard Phage. No problem.

About the deck, I don´t know if you have tested this deck a lot, but at first glance I see lotsa things I don´t like.

Wall of Roots is amazing. How can you not include it. G in your turn, G in opponents turn, doesn´t need to tap for its ability, blocks early creature rushes, can be survivalled for, it is an amazing card.

Off-colour moxen: You find them helpful?

Cabal Therapy: This is a card that looks good in FEB, but without Walls you will flash it back less often.

You are not running Morphling? It is an useful utility creature and an extra win condition.

You are not running Quirion Ranger? Speeds up mana, sacs to Therapy, saves lands from Wasteland/Dust Bowls that threaten to ruin your combo.

Fact or Fiction. Hmmmmm....
Tainted Pact: Hmmmm....

I think I would play Brainstorms over them and more Fetches. I´m currently running 4 Deltas to fetch either Tropical, Bayou or Underground Sea

Last week I did some testing against Gro. Meddling Mage in turn 2 naming Volrath´s Shapeshifter is NOT funny. Boneshredder SB?

[bebe]

1. Phage must be played from hand. So if it is already in the graveyard and you play a shifter you meet the condition. However, if Shifter is in play and you discard ithe Phage you lose.

2. I have tested the deck. i think i began the topic by mentioning just that.

3. my problem with the Walls are simple. I did not find i needed them as extra blockers as I generally fair very well against aggro. I had better creatures to survival. I understand the reasoning behind its inclusion but removing it from the build doid not effect the outcome of matches against decks I wanted to beat. Against those decks I found additional threats more helpful.

4. Morphling is cetainly good but I am playing an aggro-combo deck not a control deck. I plan to first Hypnox and then win with any of a number of win coinditions that finish the opponent quickly before they can recover.

5. Quirion Ranger is very good. I often side it in. It becomes necessary when up against decksa that attack your mana base. Indeed it might eventually find its way back to the main deck.

6. FoF is there because I play with off-colored Moxen. I find it pretty easy to play. It is used to set up my win condition and the deck re;lies on search. I need Volrath's or Survival  quickly. The same applies to Tainted Pact ( notice i use only a single copy). I have a lot of one ofs so I can find the card i'm looking for.  Both these cards are still in the experimental stage but i like them so far. I don't think Brainstorm is better although with off-colored moxen and fetches I am considering Impulse in their place.

7. Off color moxen accelerate the deck much faster then  Walls ( as noted previously ).  

8. Meddling Mages mess with any combo deck. They are one of the banes of any good combo build. When I played AoS, i got reamed by Mages more then once. Your best hope is Cabal Therapy if you suspect Mages. This deck is proactive in design. I imagine a Boneshredder or something of the sort might come in handy in the side. Need to test that.

[GnomesofZurich]

You don't lose the game if you discard Phage while a Shapeshifter is in play.  Phage causes you to lose the game if it comes into play and you didn't play it from your hand.  In this case Phage is not coming into play, the Shapeshifter is just copying it.

[bebe]

sorry. you are correct. It does indeed work. I've confused it with Hypnox. In fact the combo is Inkshrouder/Phage or Hellion/Naught.
Still it is at best cute and the question remains as to how many win conditions we need.
I have also edited the list as i think that a few points rated consideration. A few extra fetches make sense as since i do add the Ranger more often then not in siding I will put it main deck.\n\n

[TracerBullet]

This deck NEEDS Wall of Roots.  Birds simply don't cut it, and the ability to Survival twice is simply amazing.

Do you find that you have enough early critters to use Cabal Therapy without the Walls?   Mana Leak would probably be better in those slots.

Also remember that the only new "threats" you've added to the deck is the Tog.  Shapeshifters always have and always will be the threats, and adding extra dudes to discard doesn't really do anything, as you'll not have more shapeshifters in the deck.

Morphling is a godsend.  It's CASTABLE, it's tutorable, and it's capable of saving oh so many games.  It'll stop the Smothers, the StPs, and the always enjoyable burn.  It also untaps to deal with unprepared Dreadnoughts players.

[Remikaly]

I've been researching FEB quite a bit recently and I have to say that TracerBullet is really on the mark with everything he said.  His point about Wall of Roots is quite correct.  It is far more valuable than a blocker, it's main function is to give you G right off the bat, then another G on your opponent's turn.  You might as well be paying 1 for a 0/4 wall because it'll give you the green right back.  I'm not sure if Tracer meant that birds should leave the deck altogether, though.  I think that birds AND WoR are the way to go because birds give you a great 1 drop that also solves color issues that WoR does not.  Using both creatures insures that when you're done with them you have plenty of Cabal Fuel (available for only $19.99 at your local GNC!!!).  Lastly, Morphling is a bastard.  It is a completely ridiculous creature and it definitely has a place in a deck full of the most broken cards to ever have a power and toughness.

[Vegeta2711]

Although I've only played with FEB a few times. I've played against it with a variety of decks.

I think Wall of Roots should be in, not only too help with Survival costs. But, too also slow down Sligh, black decks and various Zoo builds. Obviously TnT's minions will smash them down no problem, but otherwise they are damn good at stalling. Without a decent blocker they can really put a hurting on you before you set up. The fact that they provide mana aren't easily burnt away like BoP is also helpful. It also is good vs Blood Moon and B2B, Tracer has had just enough mana to free himself enough times for me to know...

I agree that Birds should also be in there. They smooth out the mana quite well.

I don't think I've ever seen a copy of FEB without a Morph... just for the reasons already listed.

Phage I personally think seems a bit like a cute card, as you can win with the Dread kill 95% of the time. There are only a few situations I can think of where it'll be the end of the world w/o doing that.

I would also probably run a single Gilded Drake in the MD or SB, as it can simply screw opponents up rather nicely even without Shapeshifter around. (I've managed to color screw FEB off and on into winning before he could get the Shifter down and into action.)

And now to pose a question, which is better? The discard route, light discard (3-4) + counter route (3-4), or the full 6-8 discard + 3-4 counter route?

[GnomesofZurich]

I think bebe is trying to turn this deck into a faster, more-streamlined version of FEB devoted to the combo kill, which is why he's running a relatively low creature count (19 as compared to 24+).  Everyone is recommending changes to bring it back closer to the more conventional build.  Nothing wrong with this, but I'd like to see what the reasons behind bebe's choices are.

While I agree that Wall of Roots seems like a no-brainer in this deck for all of the points listed before, bebe may have a very valid reason for cutting them.

[paulb]

I always liked the brainstorm/land grant version of FEB. With the new fetchlands, brainstorm seems like a no-brainer.

Have you tried palinchron? It speeds the kill up by at least a turn.

The main problem with FEB has been wastelands. This is why I'm thinking a U/G version would be more consitent, with brainstorms, force of wills, mana drains and just 4 trops as wasteland targets.

[Peztacular]

Alright, I like FEB and all, but the fact that the mana base has flooded strands over wooded foothills seems to say something to me.

For those of you not paying attention, flooded stand can fetch only 3 lands in this deck, whereas wooded foothills can fetch those 3 lands, plus the other 5 fetchable lands in this deck.

Has this really been tested enough to be in the extreme vintage forum?

[bebe]

I'm glad everyone has so much criticism. Indeed the build seems to break a few rules.
Here is my reasoning ...
Wall of Roots do two things, both of which i have rarely needed ...
one - an extra source of mana  
two - a blocker for Sligh

I tested against Sligh and the worst threat it posed was Wastelands. Ditto for Sui. It is rare that I cannot outrace either deck. I designed this as a fast combo deck. I rely on Moxen and Birds to supply me with the mana I need. Two g is all i really have to find and usually do turn one or two. What would you play turn one or two? A Wall or Survival?  A Survival puts my opponent on a two turn clock.  

The same applies to Mana Drains. I want to be proactive in a combo deck. Cabal Therapy works so much better in this regard.

Flooded Strands were suggested and not in my original build. They are useful as a deck thinner but they are really being tested and of course Windswept Heath has already replaced them. You are quite correct.

Let's look at the creatures ...

Utility Creatures (2)
-----------------
Quirion Ranger
Cephalid Inkshrouder

Aggressive Creatures (6)
------------------------
2 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Flowstone Hellion
Phage the Untouchable
Psychatog
Hypnox

Recurring Creatures (3)
-----------------------
Reya Dawnbringer
Squee, Goblin Nabob
Genesis

there are eleven creatures here as well as four BoPs and four Volrath's which takes us up to nineteen. Really that is more than enough to keep Survival going. Each creature has a use. I am aware of those missing
Arcanis
Morphling
Palinchorn
All three are amusing but unnecessary. I can hard cast Psychatog. That makes it worth a spot. Inkshrouder combines well with Phage, Volrath's and Survival. Hypnox is a must in the deck as I will play it first aginst a number of decks.
I do not want too many utility and recursion creatures main deck. They are there for back up and not necessary for my main win conditions.

How bad is my mana base?
Mana (28)
---------
4 Birds of Paradise
4 City of Brass
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
2 Forests
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

I have never had a problem with mana in testing. In fact the mana base is better than TnT overall as I often end up with
Wastes and Workshops that cannot be used for Survival.

Finally my Restricted and Disruption ...

Disruption (8)
--------------
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy

Restricted (4)
--------------
Ancestral Recall
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Time Walk

Here there is room for discussion. I have presented my ideas already on Cabal Therapy. It removes the BoPs and is proactive. I likeits symetry with Duress as well.
A Regrowth is nice but really Reya and Genesis fill my recursion spots adequately.

Have I tested? For the last three days I was off work. I've been testing. I have found this build to be fast and reliable offering those " alternate win conditions' without altering the cohesiveness of the deck.

[Rico Suave]

Looking at the deck's mana base, it looks as though it would be able to fit in Red Elemental Blast over Therapy.  Would that be considered too narrow?

[Diablos8]

REB would be rather tough to fit in the deck, as it's only Red sources of Mana are BoP, CoB, and Mox Ruby, all of which cannot be gotten from fetchlands, but if you want to waste a Tutor on getting a City of Brass or Mox Ruby be my guest. Cabal Therapy is a lot better in the current mana base because there are way better chances of it coming into play 1st turn, not to mention it will strip 2 cards from the opposing players hand(if you happen to name it right on the 1st try).

[bebe]

Therapy forces through the combo element of the deck. It is annoying when someone has Mages, counters, seals, etc., to stop you before you get started. The fact that it works with BoPs is a bonus. This is the card the deck was missing to become more competitive.

[Diablos8]

Why run Flooded Strand over Wooded Foothills? If you already saw 3 Tropical Islands, then they are useless, while Wooded Foothills can get you all of the duals + the basic Forest.

[bebe]

Look again at the second mana base. There is no reasomn to run Flooded Strand. At this point, although I welcome criticism, I need solid reasons to make additional changes. I will ytest this at a tournament next month and hopefully have some solid real time results. At that point I can reconsider all suggestions.

[TracerBullet]

I don't know how many ways I can say this, but...Inkshrouder is crap.

If you're looking for a way to get the damage through, why run Inkshrouder?  You have trample, flying, and untargetability at your fingertips if you've got survival, so what is going to get in your way?  More importantly, Inkshrouder does SHIT for you without survival, whereas Morphling is damned good without it.  Morphling will save you in positions you didn't think you could get into.

[Vegeta2711]

Oh by the way, can anyone explain why this deck is all that good over other combo decks? Espically when the grave is starting to really have hate aimed at it...

Oh and laff @ themanadrain cross chat on this deck. I think you guys need to show why it's any good.

[TracerBullet]

This deck is the ultimate in utility combo, and in the hands of a good player (read:better than me), should have good matchups with just about everything in the field.  It beats the snot out of TnT and can go at least 50/50 with Keeper, Mask, and even GroTog (I haven't tested U/B tog).  Most importantly, all of those numbers are assuming a player who knows how to play against it.  That's hard to find.  The only truely BAD matchup I can think of for this deck is Parfait (just horrible), and even then, you've got a chance of racing a slow hand on their part.  It's a  pretty darned good deck against the metagame, and an amazing deck against an untrained metagame.

Edit- And an honest word of advice for all those interested in playing the deck- don't discuss it.  Opponents who don't know what it is will NEVER beat it.

[bebe]

@ tracerbullet - this build is designed to get one of three combos out on the table quickly. I've cut back on utility creatures to accelerate the combo. there are a number of crteatures we tried -
Morphling
Palinchorn
Arcanis
Akroma
the list goes on.
I have been playing TnT lately and found that the I dropped a number of utility creatures in that deck to include cards such as Phyrexian Colossus and wondered how much FeB needed to rely on utility.
I have enough aggressive creatures without Superman. Phage/Inkshrouder is a combo. Flowstone/Naught is a combo. Mask/Naught is a combo. Psychatog can be played early from hand. Hypnox although not an auto win is close to it with Survival out.
Ranger, Genesis, Squee and Reya are already more utility than I really want as they kick in mid-game and I really want the game to be over by then. Long games generally do not favor this deck so they become necesary evils ( I would much rather play threats or disruption but it leaves me too vulnerable).
I welcome a discussion on your build as you seem to be a proponent of the deck and we are few and far between. There was a time when i had to correspond only with Phantom Tape Wurm on another deck as no one else believed in it. E-mail me and we will discuss this further if you like but please don't post percentages - you know why.
@ Vegeta2711 - i was the first to post Fish decks on BD and everyone laughed. We kept winning with it. I can name two other decks that I introduced as well but that is not the issue. I did not claim ther deck was Tier 1. I said it performed well in testing and that inspired the Hairy T crew to work a bit on the deck. We were laughed at when we introduced Psyduck's 'ducktape' to the local Toronto scene yet it also performed well at tournaments. I do not want the thread littered with statistics. Win percentages are an invitation to flames and rightly so. I can only say the deck can be very explosive and many find it difficult to deal with. I do not worry about hate as it is not common and no one is devoting a lot of sideboard space to defeat it. Dragon is still played, Mask is played and they also are easily hosed by hate but no one devotes a lot of space to beating them. Pandaburst won the last tournament here. We were not prepared for it. Rogue builds can often succeed.\n\n

[Vegeta2711]

Hehe. I actually play a fair deal vs Tracer so I know what the deck can do. I more wanted an anwser for everyone who sees and laughs at this thread. ^^

Thanks for the anwsers guys.

[Spizzard]

As a newer player of this deck, I often wonder if I am getting all of the card interactions right.  FEB isn't an easy deck to play by no means.  Could someone explain the combos of flowstone/naught, phage/inkshrouder (I think I have it however)  A mini-primer explaining more on the deck would be nice. (If no one wants to undertake it, no big deal)  Mainly stuff like stack interaction would be helpful.

[Diablos8]

I honestly don't like Cephalid Inkshrouder. His only job in the deck is to make Phage unblockable, but you can just do this with Dreadnought/Phage and trample damage.

As for the Dreadnought/Flowstone combo, it goes as follows(assuming your going off):

1.) Shapeshifter in play, Flowstone Hellion on top of graveyard, and Dreadnought in hand.

2.) Attack with the Hellion Shapeshifter

3.) During the blockers step, activate the Hellion 8-11 times.

4.) Before the abilities resolve, Survival/Discard the Dreadnought.

5.) The Dreadnought ability resolves first(it's on top of the stack) then all the Hellion abilities resolve, making the Dreadnought the desired power/toughness.

[grey area]

Depending on how picky your opponents are you may want to phrase the hellion activations this way: "give the hellion/shapeshifter +1/-1, in response activate him again, in response activate him again, until I have stacked the hellion ability X times. Before the one on top of the stack resolves I pitch dreadnaught to survival of the fittest...

If you don't mention that each of the +1/-1's is in response to the one before it, then your opponent could try to rules lawyer your hellion/shifter into the grave before you get to pitch the dreadnaught. Technically if you just say "I pump the hellion/shifter 10 times and..." your opponent could choose to interpret that as you letting each pump resolve and then adding another to the stack. You never know how it might go if your opponent calls over a judge, so it's best to be careful.

[Diablos8]

I've played the deck for quite some time now(around 3 months) and most of the people in my area know how the combo works by now. If the person is picky, then I'll play it slowly with every little ability step by step, but most of the time people either scoop when they see it coming, or they just let me activate all 8 times, and respond with Dreadnought.

Note: If they know how it works and are in any way clever at all, they're all the more likely to try to catch you wording your actions unclearly, and rules-lawyer their way out of an otherwise fatal situation.  -Cid\n\n

[Gabethebabe]

This weekend I played a tourney (22 ppl) with FEB. It is powered only with Lotus and Jet. I played 4 Cabal Therapy and my kill creatures were Phage, 2 Dreadnought and Hellion. No Inkshoulder or Tog.

I was unbeated until a Turboland deck did me in. He killed turn 5. I killed turn 3 (!) then he killed turn 6 and my deck did nothing but PFFFFF.

I made top 8 and lost in the semis against Tradewind Survival. He was better at drawing SotF. An active Tradewind made me scoop up the cards two time in a row.

What I´ve found:

Cabal Therapy did not work for me. I sided them out every time. Next time this will be Brainstorm, helping me to find SotF earlier.

Phage. I love her. Almost all my games were won with her.

Flowstone Hellion. Good. I never did the Flowstone Hellion pump trick, only used it for its haste. With succes. One time a hardcast Hellion won me the game.

Reya. She never did me any good. When there is Survival, you go for the throat.

BoPs/Wall of Roots. Vital. Often I found myself survivalling for a bird when I needed another U to cast Superman II.

Genesis. Was never activated. It enchantment equivalent Oath of Ghouls worked admirably, though.

Quirion Ranger. Very good. Got to kill in one turn when I had only one Tropical. Survival for Quirion, play it, tap Tropical for U, return it and tap it again. Play Superman II, win.

Palinchron. Very good indeed. Together with Hellion providing quick kills against opponents that tap out, unaware of how fast you can combo.

Things I´m, considering:
- Squee II.
- Discard creature. Either the Nightmare or the Thrull Surgeon.

[jpmeyer]

Tog is amazing too at stacking your graveyard.  I'd never cut it.

From anything

[Diablos8]

Quote (Gabethebabe @ Mar. 31 2003,07:01)What I´ve found:

Genesis. Was never activated. It enchantment equivalent Oath of Ghouls worked admirably, though.


Things I´m, considering:
- Squee II.

Genesis is still a great card to use, acting as a Survivalable Oath of Ghouls, not to mention he still brings back stuff that could be on top of the Phage, dreadnought, etc.

I wouldn't go with Squee II. I've tested him in FEB, and I don't think he's needed. 1 Squee is good enough ,as he will lead into everything for the combo.