There are three people playing parfait in the TMD invitat...

[Meridian]

There are three people playing parfait in the TMD invitational. Their combined record is 1-5. The one win came in the mirror match against another Parfait deck. These are not impressive results. But why is this deck bad? On the surface is has everything a control deck wants... answers to creatures, ways to remove artifacts and enchantments... even a way to draw lots of extra cards. And apparantly plenty of people think its good, because no single deck was played as much in the TMD invitational aside from Keeper. So why is it so bad?

In my opinion, what it comes down to is the Tax/Rack engine. Everybody seems to think this is the coolest thing since sliced bread. Drawing 3 cards a turn just sounds so good. But in practice I think this engine is horrible. It takes 2 permanents, its slow, and worst of all its conditional. They have to actually have more land in play than you. This is bad, especially for a control deck.

Against Growatog, or its lesser non-tog counterparts, assuming the engine even resolves it should never become active. Gush should ensure that land tax is never activated.
Mask/Nought runs fine on 3 mana, and 2 of those can easily be moxes. Yes this deck packs alot of removal, and theoretically that should be bad for mask, but without a draw engine its hard to find it. Keeper does actually have to play its lands out, but even if scroll rack does resolve it still has to survive keeper's disenchant while Parfait runs no counterspells.

Anyways, to sum it up I think Parfait is bad because it has no counterspells and no effective card drawing. What color gives you these abilities? Thats right blue. What color is in almost every successful control deck? Exactly.

[Smmenen]

The first problem is that Parfait is mono white.

The second problem is that it relies too much on it's opening draws.  The reason it does so is because relies heavily on its opening hand.  The reason, as you pintpointed is becuase of the colors and the draw engine.   Tax/Rack is finne against a control deck - but not against a deck that is going to bash your head in.  And every control deck knows to counter the rack.  

Outside of that, this deck only has one tutor.  

Theoretically, Parfait is positioned as at least a tier 2is deck as it should have good matches against TnT, Mask, and should crush most aggro decks.  In practice, it loses to everything.

A great example of this is a recent tournament report by K-Run where he goes 2-1-3
and says that he did ok.  If the creator can't do better than 2-1-3 in swiss, this deck is terrible.

Steve\n\n

[jpmeyer]

It's slow and can't say no as well.

[Magimaster]

fools! Parfait owns you!!!

I would say that people running Parfait at TMD invitational are running sub-optimal builds.


I've had good testing with it so far...I hope to get some REAL testing against the good decks soon.

[walking dude]

The problems with parfait is that it doesn't draw, doesnt search, and most importnatly doesn't really have all that many ways to Just Win against control or aggro. There is a simple way to solve all these problems and that is to add other colors. The enchantress deck cooberp built solves all these problems, it draws cards like crazy via any number of methods, enchantress + anything, sylvan + sac land, or sylvan + pursuit of knowledge. I know a lot of you may have discarded the deck after testing its initial form, thats reasonable, its mana sucked. But the base is very strong now with the fetchlands and the deck really ahs everything you could want from non blue based control.

[Magimaster]

Quote (walking dude @ Feb. 21 2003,09:12)The problems with parfait is that it doesn't draw, doesnt search, and most importnatly doesn't really have all that many ways to Just Win against control or aggro. There is a simple way to solve all these problems and that is to add other colors. The enchantress deck cooberp built solves all these problems, it draws cards like crazy via any number of methods, enchantress + anything, sylvan + sac land, or sylvan + pursuit of knowledge. I know a lot of you may have discarded the deck after testing its initial form, thats reasonable, its mana sucked. But the base is very strong now with the fetchlands and the deck really ahs everything you could want from non blue based control.

Except that Enchantress needs power to run

When you have the power, why play Enchantress?

j/k

anyways, here's what I see wrong with Parfait :

Life Gain - Okay, this isn't really necessary anymore. I still see people packing Ivory Towers. Ivory Tower is chaff. The majority of aggro decks can easily overcome the life buffer gained by having the Tower out for a few turns. Life gain IMO isn't really a strong strategy, I'm surprised that people still rely on this crutch. I will admit, I've used the Tower in my SB against that brutal Neo-Goblin Sligh, but other than that it's total ass.

Wastelands - Parfait is a butt slow deck. I see people running up to 3 main. Well, Wastelands are cool, but the truth is Parfait has pretty much just those 3 Wastes for disruption. It works well decks like Sui, Sligh etc. because they can disrupt and beatdown on the fly. Parfait is just like, disrupt...okay...okay...setti ng up...*10 turns later* finally active Mesa, oh damn he's had 10 turns to recover. I see Wasteland as more of a utility card, to remove that nasty Library or Mishra's or whatever, but Parfait shouldn't rely on them. Soo many slots wasted on those.

kl0wn tech - 1 mountain 1 blood moon. This should be standard by now. Blood Moon has won otherwise unwinnable matches. As a bonus, it's one of your only weapons against Enchantress.  Being able to go up to 3 post SB is just wrecking ball against slower U based control (Aside from monoU, which you should have a fairly even match with anyways).


I'm at school right now, so I'll finish this up when I get home. I will say this about K-Run's recent tourney result. K-Run is currently testing new cards in Parfait (which is good) so that should help explain the not so cool result.

Don't disregard Parfait, or it will come back to bite you in the ass

[jpmeyer]

One of the reasons that I first added red to Parfait was to get Blood Moon/Wild Research going.  It gave the deck the ability to go into recursion mode to draw out counters by Researching (through my Gemstone Mines) for Abeyance and Argivian Find to be able to eventually get the Blood Moon through.  It also gave the deck an extra tutor.

[VegasJake]

I used to play a Parfait-like deck a couple years ago (U/W creatureless with the tax/rack engine).  One thing which I think was essential to it was the inclusion of the Mirage diamonds; forgive me if my knowledge of Parfait isn't up to date, but if it doesn't have them already it could probably benefit greatly from 2-4 Marble Diamonds.  The advantages are to hinder your opponent from playing around Land Tax and accelerating your mana up to 4 so you can Wrath, Moat, etc.  I also ran a couple of 'Geddons at the 4cc slot which obviously have synergy with the Diamonds as well.

@JP:  Red in Parfait is the shiznit.  Gamble tech!

[MoreFling]

I used to do very well with parfait, but lately, it has become a bore, and basicly, I'm on an extreme cold streak with the deck. I couldn't draw or mulligan into a land tax if my life depended on it.
And if I could, I couldn't draw into a Rack if my mothers life depended on it.
Against aggro, I couldn't draw into an aggro-hoser if my fathers life depended on it....

and the list goes on  

I'm can't pinpoint the cause, but maybe we need to up the redundancy, and find better kill conditions (processor?). The problem is, there is no good ENCHANTMENT kill condition other then maybe try out opalescence, and get fucked by Balance/WoG.

However, Meridian, Apprentice doesn't prove anything. I lost my match against Brim purely on being fucked over by Apprentice. He didn't make too many playing errors (I remember 1 in a game he was already losing), but Apprentice really did me in.

regardless, I don't give a fuck what you think about it, I still like the deck, and for now, I'm playing Ankh Sligh anyway

[K-Run]

First of all, just a little clarification :

Quote A great example of this is a recent tournament report by K-Run where he goes 2-3 and says that he did ok.  If the creator can't do better than 2-3 in swiss, this deck is terrible.

I actually did 2-1-3 as in 2 wins/1 loss/3 draws. I wonder where Smmenen got that 2-3... Anyway.

Is the deck bad? Depends on what you consider bad. The worst about Parfait is its slowness. That's definitely something to consider. As MoreFling said, we'll have to wait for another kill card to be printed to speed up the deck.

Who needs additional tutoring? Tutoring is just bad vs blue-based control unless you run counters yourself. I'd rather take the redundancy+drawing route than adding tutors.

The decks needs to remain competitive without an active Tax/Rack. Vs gro and TnT, I side out some taxes to add removal.

Lastly, how does the deck lose to everything?

[CrazyCarl]

To most of the Parfait players out there, please don't take offence to this:

I think the reason Parfait is so "terrible" is MOSTLY due to play skill(or lack thereof).  This statement is referring to the real world.  As for TMD Invitational, who knows.  But most of the people who play Parfait tend to be less experianced, and Parfait is relatively difficult to play -correctly-.  I'm not claiming to be an expert, but i've witnessed plenty of Parfait related mistakes that a better player would not have made.

This isn't to say all the people who play more expensive decks are more experianced and therefor better, but I'm sure you all get my drift.

If this thread is mainly meant to discuss TMD Online championship showings of Parfait, then, my bad  ;P

Carl

[Magimaster]

Quote (CrazyCarl @ Feb. 21 2003,15:02)To most of the Parfait players out there, please don't take offence to this:

I think the reason Parfait is so "terrible" is MOSTLY due to play skill(or lack thereof).  

LOL

reminds me of this one time @ this tourney.

My opponent (he went first): Library of Alexandria, go.

Me: Chuck my WASTELAND, Mox Diamond, go.

he had an active Library for like 10 turns  and I still won, and he wasn't half bad either.

I ended up getting second in that tourney, but according to Kandykid, I made about an error every 2 turns or something like that (misplaying cards, forgetting to tax, letting my opponent cheat etc.)

I am a bad player.

PeAcE

[Smmenen]

Quote (K-Run @ Feb. 21 2003,12:57)I actually did 2-1-3 as in 2 wins/1 loss/3 draws. I wonder where Smmenen got that 2-3... Anyway.

I fixed that as you were typing your post  - sorry.

Quote

Who needs additional tutoring? Tutoring is just bad vs blue-based control unless you run counters yourself. I'd rather take the redundancy+drawing route than adding tutors.

Tell that to Mask or Combo.

Quote
The decks needs to remain competitive without an active Tax/Rack. Vs gro and TnT, I side out some taxes to add removal.

But then you are compromising the only card engine the deck has.

Lastly, how does the deck lose to everything?[/quote]



I never said it lost to everything.  

I agree with Carls sentimate to a degree - Parfait *Is* difficult to play correctly.  I used to play K-Run *all the time* back when I still played Keeper and I watched how he played - he always did much better than other people who played parfait.  

I think the one thing I have against it is that it is enormously popular - just look at other forums or even the poll in the vintage forum that says it is the best non-powered deck - and these people misconceive it's potency.

Steve\n\n

[kl0wn]

The thing about Parfait is that it's not a bad deck, people just play it badly and haven't adapted it for the current environment. It has the heaviest bombs that you can drop in Type 1 against everything except combo.

The most important thing when playing Parfait is knowing how to force it to work.

Sometimes you have to mulligan to 4. Sometimes you have to go suicide Mesa. Sometimes you have to reset everyone's hand and board with Balance, even if you're in a winning position. Sometimes you have to blow all of your Chants to buy enough turns to set up.

The deck isn't flexible enough to where you can tutor up whatever you need to solve a problem. You need to know how to use what you have available to win.

Parfait takes a lot of experience and an intimate knowledge of every little ratio of drawing any card in the deck, as well as knowing the details of of every miniscule interaction among every card in your deck, your opponents deck, and the rules in general.

It takes a lot of practice to fully understand Parfait and, aside from K-Run, I don't think anyone running it in the Invitational really has the expertise required to use it properly.

Some other explanations for the poor performance could be that Parfait in it's current form is suboptimal for a fully-powered and competitive environment, and the fact that Apprentice does horible things to decks that aren't half tutors and card drawing.

[doublej20]

First of all, I would like to ask why this is in the EXTREME VINTAGE FORUM?!? Can a mod please put it in the proper place, because something like this definitely does NOT belong here.

Now, in the spirit of the thread, I will answer Meridian's question. The reason Parfait will never be better than average is because it attempts to be a control deck, but cannot counter key spells at the moment of truth. You need Islands or a Force of Will for that, and Parfait has neither, which is why things can turn ugly at any stage of the game.

Let us review how Parfait fares against different matchups:
Gro (in any form): Parfait loses when they counter your key spells, such as Moat, Story Circle, and/or Humility (and those couple subsequent near-death Replenishes).
Advantage: Gro
TnT: If you can get an early Aura of Silence on the board and not die in the first 5 turns, you will be in good shape, and if you run the single Tormod's Crypt you will be in even better shape (to get rid of opposing recurring Lyrists).
Advantage: Parfait
Paragon Keeper: All I can say is that Cunning Wish for Parfait will put a bad feeling in your ass.
Advantage: Paragon Keeper
PandeBurst: 21 points to your dome without attacking is something Parfait cannot deal with.
Advantage: Pandeburst
Tainted Mask: The explosiveness and disruption are the keys to this match. If key spells get Duressed or Unmasked from your hand early, you are most likely done. But if not, then you stand a good shot of winning the match.
Advantage: Even
PerniciousVoid: Deed wipes away all of your goodies and a Void can quickly put the game out of reach with a Negator or Shade staring you down.
Advantage: Void
Ophidian: This is one of the matchups that Parfait was built for with it's bevy of recursion, and it tends to come out on top.
Advantage: Parfait
Sligh: Parfait has so many goodies against Sligh, especially if you are boarding in Conversion.
Advantage: Parfait

So, while the next few replies may gripe/argue about the specific matchups that I have listed, the fact is that a mono colored control deck (especially one without counterspells) is ill-equipped to deal with many decks, whether they be aggro, control, or combo.

edit: spelling is tech

[kl0wn]

I think the purpose of this thread being started in the Extreme Vintage forum was to prevent people who have little to no practical knowledge of the deck posting about why they think that its bad.

Of course, that plan has been easily thwarted.

I'm not going to babble/argue about your matchup analyses. I will, however, tell you that you have a less-than-competent knowledge of the deck and the philosophies behind it.

Parfait does not need counterspells because it has gigantic recurring hosers. The lack of counterspells is only a real problem against combos such as Academy.

Parfait is pre-emptive control, it answers problems before they become problems. It doesn't sit back and wait for the opponent to do something.

[Magimaster]

I don't think Gro can outcounter Parfait. Hell, monoU has problems outcountering Parfait.

doublej20, I do not agree with some of your analysis.

[cooberp]

Will, thanks for the shoutout.
Yes, Enchantress does everything Parfait wants to do better, at the cost of two things:

1. Money.  It needs Moxes and an Abyss, and really likes the Ancestral too.
2. Vulnerability to nonbasic hate.  Enchantress can handle this pretty well with a fetchable Plains, MD Seal, SB Karmic Justice Aura Fracture and Celestial Dawn, but of course there's no substitute for 13-14 Plains and 4 Land Tax.

[Radjammin]

I'd have to agree as hard decks go, Parfait is not very forgiving.


I aggree with most of Doubles matcups except Gro.  I don't fear grow at all, now growatog is alot harder.  The main reason is that Vs. Gro StoryCircle is a moat with a 1 mana upkeep.  Vs Groatog it is much harder as it only stops one source of damage.

Concerning Enchantress, if I had all that power I think I would just play other decks.  I have played online too many time and lost to wastelands.  

I think if parfiat is going to stay vialble or get better, it going to need to :
Increase the number of low CC threats/answers - maybe more of these promised rules/laws cards.
more card drawing
mox diamonds becomming unrestricted

[doublej20]

Quote (kl0wn @ Feb. 21 2003,19:12)I'm not going to babble/argue about your matchup analyses. I will, however, tell you that you have a less-than-competent knowledge of the deck and the philosophies behind it.

Parfait does not need counterspells because it has gigantic recurring hosers. The lack of counterspells is only a real problem against combos such as Academy.

Parfait is pre-emptive control, it answers problems before they become problems. It doesn't sit back and wait for the opponent to do something.

@Klown: Having played Parfait *effectively* I do have competent knowledge of the deck and its philosophies. I have played it against most decks and understand the mechanics and interactions of all of the cards. For a decent control player it really is not that hard to grasp.

I would argue that Parfait IS crippled because of it's lack of counter presence because spells such as Yawgmoth's Will or Stroke of Genius tend to end the game, and there isn't much Parfait can do about that, hence my argument about why it is not a great control deck.

Quote I don't think Gro can outcounter Parfait. Hell, monoU has problems outcountering Parfait. doublej20, I do not agree with some of your analysis.

@Magimaster: I know that not everybody will agree will my analysis, and it is certainly open for my debate. In my experiences and the matches I have seen in tournaments, these are the results however. Gro outcounters everything, including Mono Blue and including Parfait. Post sideboard it gets even worse when the Gro player is siding in the 3 Naturalizes in the board (Sure Orim's Chant resolves. Sure Moat or Humility or Story Circle resolves. On my turn I will Naturalize your key spell and swing).

The fact that a deck like T1T (Type 1 Tog, GroATog for you ninnies) can kill you by turn 5 compound the problems of having many spells being effective and establishing control mid-game, because there may not neccessarily BE a mid-game.

[Iuewen]

doublej20, where do you get the idea that Gro outcounters MonoU? Gro, while having an impressive card drawing engine with Gush, can't keep up with the solid power of Ophidian. I completely beg to differ on that whole statement. Gro dosen't need to outcounter everything, it simply has enough counters to make its threats go through and protect them reasonably.

Parfait, while it has its shortcomings, is still one of the most solid decks I have ever had the pleasure of playing. I don't agree that trying to improve on parfait gives you Enchantress. Enchantress has some deep-seated problems, mostly with nonbasic hate, global enchantment removal, and untargeted creature removal. Parfait, while sharing in one of these shortcomings, has neither of the others. Instead it has its own set of problems. Slow is the most prominent of them, hard to play the other. A monkey with a stick can play enchantress correctly. Watching a good player pilot parfait is a thing to behold indeed.

[jdl]

Quote (Iuewen @ Feb. 22 2003,07:15)doublej20, where do you get the idea that Gro outcounters MonoU? Gro, while having an impressive card drawing engine with Gush, can't keep up with the solid power of Ophidian. I completely beg to differ on that whole statement. Gro dosen't need to outcounter everything, it simply has enough counters to make its threats go through and protect them reasonably.

BSB runs 14 counters:
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Mana Leak
2 Misdirection

Tog runs 13 counters:
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Misdirection
1 Divert
1 Daze
1 Foil

Obviously these numbers may differ among various builds, but that's the baseline to go by.  Tog outcounters BSB, because it's trying to force through threats early in the game, before BSB has the mana to cast Drain or Leak more than once.

-- Jim

[kirdape3]

Alright guys, keep it on topic.  Parfait discussions on why it's bad do not degenerate into Tog vs. Gro countering matches.

That being said, Parfait just doesn't stop anything.  Twist for 7?  Wow, that sucks.  And since you don't have a Scroll Rack (I'm sure to have countered it all 7-8 times you've played it, since it's the card that lets you do anything), you're not recovering.  Big Type One control spells defeat Parfait.

[kl0wn]

Quote (doublej20 @ Feb. 22 2003,12:21)@Klown: Having played Parfait *effectively* I do have competent knowledge of the deck and its philosophies. I have played it against most decks and understand the mechanics and interactions of all of the cards. For a decent control player it really is not that hard to grasp.

Well, I must be playing it wrong then, because I haven't had bad results with it like you have. I guess playing Parfait *effectively* means losing with it.

I'm not going to pick a fight with you about it chief. You already gave your rock-solid matchup analyses and informed us poor slobs that's its pointless to debate them since they are clearly facts.

My point still stands that you do not know how to play the deck properly. You have further proven your point by what you have posted. Regardless of how many times you say that you're good with Parfait, but lose depspite your expertise, you are still an ass and should be disregarded as such.

[doublej20]

@kl0wn:

Quote The lack of counterspells is only a real problem against combos such as Academy.

As I pointed out earlier, and as Kirdape3 pointed out above, Parfait is a control deck that cannot deal with critical spells (a few being Mind Twist, Yawgmoth's Will, Stroke of Genius) that will pretty much end the game or swing it so out of control that Parfait will be unable to come back from the deficit created. This is an inherent weakness of not playing blue in a CONTROL deck.

Quote I'm not going to pick a fight with you about it chief. You already gave your rock-solid matchup analyses and informed us poor slobs that's its pointless to debate them since they are clearly facts.

My point still stands that you do not know how to play the deck properly. You have further proven your point by what you have posted. Regardless of how many times you say that you're good with Parfait, but lose depspite your expertise, you are still an ass and should be disregarded as such.

As I already mentioned in my reply to Magimaster, my analysis IS open for debate, and is merely based on from how I have seen Parfait perform. Also, no where in any of my posts have I said that I have been unsuccessful with Parfait or that it is a bad deck. I have simply attempted to answer Meridian's original question by pointing out patterns and trends in particular matchups, and you have misquoted what I said twice, so while I respect you as a player and contributor on this site, now who's the ass?

@Iuewen:

Quote doublej20, where do you get the idea that Gro outcounters MonoU? Gro, while having an impressive card drawing engine with Gush, can't keep up with the solid power of Ophidian. I completely beg to differ on that whole statement. Gro dosen't need to outcounter everything, it simply has enough counters to make its threats go through and protect them reasonably.

By outcountering Mono Blue, I do not mean that it has more counters in the deck's makeup, but by being able to burn through it's deck with cantrips and load it's hand full of cheap counters, it is usually able to win important counter wars early in the game, while pumping its Dryad to a huge beast and swinging the game in Gro's favor.

[jpmeyer]

Imma getting really close to closing this thread with all the personal attacks and off-topic arguments.

[ZoneSeek]

Parfait is slow, yes. But I have played it, not enough to become even close to mastering it, but enough to know it's workings. I think choosing a deck like Parfait to play over the net is a big mistake; Apprentice is unforgiving in it's shuffling and draws. It's not a fully sound argument to say Parfait is bad because it loses over the net. It's similar to saying that the results of a professional sports game would be the same if they were using different equipment. For example, hockey players using baseball bats. Hey, that's not a bad idea...

Anyway, the reason decks like Parfait and even Enchantress are hard to play is because they play similar to aggro decks while actually being control decks. Here is why: In an aggressive deck, you want to lay out cards first, then let your opponent respond, or lose. This is exactly what these decks do. They anticipate their opponent's hand, deck, and play choices, and make their own before their opponent does. Sometimes, we have the luxury of playing after a card has been played. In both decks, almost everything is done at Sorcery speed which means things will be played either directly before or directly after your opponent played them. Because of the very high level of understanding and insight required when these decks are played, the difficulty of playing them is also increased.

I'm not arguing that other decks aren't hard to play. I found Stompy to be very hard to play correctly back when it was a reasonable deck in Extended. Most people thing the deck is a no-brainer, but I say if that's what you thought, then you were sorely mistaken.

One more thing. It has been mentioned and inferred (not just in this thread) that Sacred Mesa is a bad win condition, and that Opalescence is just better. I can not overstate how wrong that is. Sacred Mesa is, in my opinion, "The best win condition in Type 1 for a control deck with sufficient mana and control" Yes, folks, even better than Morphling.

First, to state the obvious: Sacred Mesa is an Enchantment. This means it is inherently the target of alot less removal in Type 1, and is more likely to be in a deck where it can be readily recursed into play. While it has no evasion for it's particular sort of removal, often the deck in which it is contained has greater synergy with the Mesa.

Second, since Morphling is a single creature, it is vulnerable to being chump blocked, or just outsized by some flier. Granted, there aren't many that can do this, but it's still a factor. Blocking a Pegasus token with that 6/6 Mystic Enforcer is alot less mana-consuming and threatening than blocking an attacking Morphling. Sacred Mesa has the benefit of being able to produce many creatures, which not only avoids Edicts, but protective measures like Circles of Protection and the like. The Mesa's tokens stick around, even if the enchantment gets destroyed, so it may already be too late for your opponent. Likewise, a mid-game Mesa will be able to hold off and chump more creatures, buying turns until a more permanent solution will come to show it's face.

A quick note: given a sufficient mana base, Sacred Mesa will often win the game faster than Morphling, although usually not by much.

On the other hand, there is Sacred Mesa's upkeep. However, let me put it to you this way. How many times have you been in a game where you had to give Morphling flying to take him to the head? And how often do you actually tap out with a Morphling in play? Usually, one will spend up to two mana in a full pair of turns with a Morphling. They may spend even more, perhaps paying one mana for flying, one to avoid the Abyss, and one left open to "counter" potential Swords to Plowshares. Morphling also has plenty of an upkeep, so in this light I don't think the Mesa's upkeep is that much of a factor.

The one big advantage Morphling has over Sacred Mesa is that it is alot easier and faster to go "suicide Morphling" than it is "suicide Mesa". That is to say, in more cases it is easier to drop a 5th turn or sooner Morphling and win than it is a 5th turn Mesa. It can be done with a Mesa, but it may or may not give your opponent enough time to find some sort of answer or extra threat that the Mesa cannot handle. In this respect, Mesa is not nearly as good as Morphling.

I'm sorry I had to write an essay on the topic, but I would just like to make my point perfectly clear. It is in my humble but I believe truthful opinion that Sacred Mesa is the best win condition in Type 1, given the above circumstance. It is also a respectible card when outside of said circumstance. Miles have been said about one particular card in a deck like Keeper; here, I do the same with Sacred Mesa, as it seems many people underestimate it.

Relating this all to Parfait, Sacred Mesa is just another of the advantages in playing the deck. You are playing behind the backing that your win condition is the best in Vintage and that if you survive the onslaught of the first few turns and take control of the game, you will be able to win. Parfait's skeleton adheres to Sacred Mesa perfectly. None of its own hosers cause any harm to it, and Parfait plays a small yet powerful array of recursive solutions that can recur the enchantment if destroyed.

I hope this is on-topic enough to be useful.

[Razor]

Wow -  I am dismayed that so many posts in this thread have so little nutritious content.  Reading it has been like eating at McDonald's; I'm full, but I'm still hungry.

As for why Parfait's losing in this TMD Apprentice tournament I have no idea.  As a comparison, I forget how many matches/tourneys KlOwN has won with his Cherry Parfait in real life.

Aside to doublej20: Your post on the strengths and weaknesses of Parfait's various matchups was quite inaccurate.  For example, you said:

Quote PandeBurst: 21 points to your dome without attacking is something Parfait cannot deal with.
Advantage: Pandeburst

Whenever Parfait plays either a: Replenish, Tormod's Crypt, Story Circle, Orim's Chant, Zuran Orb, Aura Fracture, Aura of Silence or Seal of Cleansing or Ivory Mask then the Pandeburst deck has trouble going off.  In this matchup I believe that slow and steady wins the race.  Pandeburst decks are at risk of fizzling after even one Crypt resolves due to their use of Intuition which reduces good topdecks.  For style I'd even enjoy beating Pandeburst with its own Mana Crypt.  See?

Cherry Parfait's Pluses:
-rock-solid mana-base
-kills Aggro decks good
-quite capable of killing Control or Combo good
-universally gives multi-coloured decks major grief via Blood Moon(s)
-quite capable of quasi-outdrawing blue-based decks [Tax/Rack/Replenish]
-what other deck can reliably put a Pariah on an untargettable Morphling for fun and profit? [we're not done yet]
-gets to win with lil flying horsies
-it's darned difficult to kill it
-it's easy to build it on the cheap [primo of ghetto decks]
-lotsa people underestimate the power of white
-possible Red Elemental Blasts in the Sideboard

Cherry Parfait's minuses:
-no counterspells with which to affect the stack [boo hoo]
-slow play: match draws are not uncommon [similar to Dragon-Combo]
-this deck takes a lot of work to play [shuffling, digging, etc.]
-somewhat tricky to play fast enough to win matches

As for those who stated that Parfait cannot handle cards like: Y.Will, Stroke, Mind Twist, etc. - I disagree.  Cherry Parfait should be featuring cards like: Ivory Mask, and Tormod's Crypt maindeck.  Stroke, fueled by Drain will net a few cards, but it is still quite timing related whether or not this will save them.

If you just know that this deck archetype sucks well that's great.\n\n

[kl0wn]

Quote (doublej20 @ Feb. 22 2003,15:55)Also, no where in any of my posts have I said that I have been unsuccessful with Parfait or that it is a bad deck. I have simply attempted to answer Meridian's original question by pointing out patterns and trends in particular matchups, and you have misquoted what I said twice, so while I respect you as a player and contributor on this site, now who's the ass?

I haven't misquoted a damn thing. I've been reading what you've said and replying based on what your apparent intent was. Feel free to spell out what you were REALLY trying to say because I've got a gargantuan headache from trying to understand you.


You said that Parfait is a bad deck and can't win against most archetypes.

Now you say that you don't lose repeatedly with it.

So if you win with it often, then its not doing poorly. Therefore, Parfait is a good deck.

Please make up your mind before you start making assertions.

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Razor @ Feb. 22 2003,17:37)As for those who stated that Parfait cannot handle cards like: Y.Will, Stroke, Mind Twist, etc. - I disagree.  Cherry Parfait should be featuring cards like: Ivory Mask, and Tormod's Crypt maindeck.  Stroke, fueled by Drain will net a few cards, but it is still quite timing related whether or not this will save them.

My main problem with that strategy is that there is usually at least one chink in the armor, and the opposing deck has to exploit only one weakness to win.  It's improbable that Parfait will have the all the bases covered and have everything in place, especially if the opponent has counters.  Ivory Mask does stop Mind Twist, but Mana Draining Ivory Mask into Twist is an example play of what I'm talking about.  

I say screw it and just go for the throat.  In my opinion Parfait cannot be a utility deck with answers for every situation, it just needs to drop bombs.  If there are not enough bombs, cut the situational cards like Ivory Mask, Ivory Tower, and Tormod's Crypt for more bombs.