Paragon Keeper 2003 (Zherbus Remix)

[Zharradan]

Does anyone think there is a place here for Moat again? It seems that most creatures coming your way these days are land based. Of course, there is the problem of actually making Moat stick, but then you had a similar problem with Abyss - and that got cut due to lack of utility rather than difficulty to cast or keep around.

Just a thought.

[Zherbus]

You would be right on, but they printed Naturalize.

[MisterShark]

Quote (Zharradan @ May 19 2003,11:22)Does anyone think there is a place here for Moat again? It seems that most creatures coming your way these days are land based.

I never abandoned Moat and it has saved my hide time and again.  Togs, Dryads, Negators, Dreadnoughts, Juggernauts, Shades, etc all take the bench until a disenchanting effect resolves against your Moat.  Naturalize hasn't made keeping Moat on the board any easier, but they have to resolve it against your counters and that's if they happen to have it on-hand and don't have to spend precious time searching for/ drawing into it first.

vs. GaT/ Hulk: If you can protect it (Moat) against Hulk or GaT, then there isn't much more that you need to worry about.  
vs. Sui/ Void: Against  the mono black player it gets even rosier since anything just short of a Nev's Disk isn't going to pose a problem for you. Well, maybe Hippies can be problematic but hey, you can't have everything; find a StP, Fire, Edict, Balance or Morphling.
vs. TnT: TnT needs a Lyrist to effectively deal with you, and You'll need to hold a StP or a Wish to be prepared.  See my P.S. regarding Anger/ Lyrist.

I was wondering if the Moat issue would re-surface, and I think it's time, once again, has come.

P.S. Don't anyone argue Wonder against Moat; in this time of Cunning Wishes, there's no reason to be caught out there without an Ebony Charm.

[Lord of the Goats]

Quote (MisterShark @ May 20 2003,19:49)vs. TnT: TnT needs a Lyrist to effectively deal with you, and You'll need to hold a StP or a Wish to be prepared.  See my P.S. regarding Anger/ Lyrist.

P.S. Don't anyone argue Wonder against Moat; in this time of Cunning Wishes, there's no reason to be caught out there without an Ebony Charm.

kinda nit picking, but tnt does run triskillion to deal with moat so it's not as simple as charm/plow 2 trisks, wonder, and lyrist. besides, a good tnt player won't let you charm both trisks unless you charm multiple times. 3 is the magic number, first hits lyrist, anger, and probably squee, second hits 1 trisk and whatever looks good, third hits the second trisk. that's without taking wonder into account, but most builds run either wonder or lyrist so it's eqivalent.

my experience from the tnt side of the match has been that moat isn't particularly effective.

[Zherbus]

Quote my experience from the tnt side of the match has been that moat isn't particularly effective.

I concur. In fact, my experience from both sides of the table is that it is an ineffective hoser. When you don't stop Welder and Survival, Moat still cannot save you. When you stop Welder and Moat, you should be able to deal with the rest of the rabble.

Quote I was wondering if the Moat issue would re-surface, and I think it's time, once again, has come.

Like I said before, I might have agreed with you if Naturalize hadn't been printed.

[Mith]

So with GrowATog and its many Misdirections moving out of the limelight...will Keeper revert to it's pre-tog version?

[Zherbus]

Not quite so fast.

Remember there are other monsters in this format like Workshop decks, Rector Trix, Hulk, and URPhid. Being the reactive person that I am, I'm waiting to see what the trend goes towards before changing too much in what I'm using now.

[Mith]

Very true, but I wouldn't mind speculating on it anyways. I love Future Sight so much more than I ever loved Braingeyser...that's one change I don't think I'll revert on. Hell, I'm up to two maindeck (thanks to CrazyCarl) and they're always game winners.

Other changes to consider:

1. The number of maindeck swords
2. The number of REB in the board
2. Stroke vs. Scrying (God I lover Scrying too...)
3. That long-forgotten Dustbowl
4. and finally, should keeper start appearing more often...chainer's edict maindeck vs diabolic edict in the board


To be very honest...I'm so much happier with Keeper in its present state than I have been in a while. I Wish for the four REBs in the board all the time...Scrying has been a million times faster than stroke ever was....I'd rather find room for a 4th wasteland than a dustbowl...and chainer's is just all around poop.

Anyways...the metagame shift will definetly be interesting.

Oh, and Sacred Ground has been PURE GOLD vs Stax. I'm running it over the second disenchant in the board, and will continue to do so unless something else comes up.

[Zherbus]

Yeah, I also love the changes made to Keeper and I will speculate that there really won't be too much in the way of changes. Everyone who can will mostly play one of these three decks:

Hulk Smash
TnT
Rector Trix

That's what will be held as the 'Decks To Beat' and meanwhile Sligh will become playable again. Suicide will drop in playability again as it loses GAT to beat on, and more Sligh and TnT to wade through.

Of note, I see Smokestack decks and URPhid dropping off severly in playability.

Quote Other changes to consider:

1. The number of maindeck swords
2. The number of REB in the board
2. Stroke vs. Scrying (God I lover Scrying too...)
3. That long-forgotten Dustbowl
4. and finally, should keeper start appearing more often...chainer's edict maindeck vs diabolic edict in the board

1. Yep, first thing I can see doing is throwing Abyss back in.

2. I'll keep it at 4, likely. Rector Trix and Hulk are both deserving of all 4 REBs.

2 (again?). Playing with Scrying has really made me despise Stroke. It'll take an all time low in the Misdirections run out there to make me consider this for a while. Scrying is just good enough to not have me worry about this.

3. Dustbowl is too slow against Trix, marginal against Hulk and TnT, and obviously useless in Sligh. Only if Keeper becomes popular over Hulk (unlikely) can I see running this again. I ran it originally for the GAT matchup to snipe them after a Gush, but still never ended up liking it in the long run. Basically, if my metagame prediction is dead on this card won't be needed much.

4. I don't know about that one. I think the Edict effect is quite happy in the board.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote Suicide will drop in playability again as it loses GAT to beat on

Most suicide (and GAT) players I talked to said that it is a complete myth that suicide trumps GAT.  My own experience in the one tournament I played GAT was a 6-0 games record vs. suicide.

With Gush leaving the format, wastelands and sinkholes become more powerful.  With misdirectoin seeing less play hymn and sinkhole should be less scary to cast.  I'm not saying the environment is ripe for suicide, but Gush & GAT leaving certainly doesn't hurt it.

[Zherbus]

Well, you're right. Suicide was (supposedly) only really played because GaT was keeping TnT in check and Suicide had a good shot at beatin GaT.

However, we are likely to be reverting to a pre-GaT metagame where Suicide was usually deemed risky to play because Ankh Sligh and TnT were abundant.

Of course, we are all just speculating based on previous observations and experiences. We shall see, thats why I hesitate to make any major changes in my Keeper build until I see what's going to be out there.

One notable exception to my metagame explanation run down was Smokestack. To elaborate, with the formats better decks packing Mana Drains, Welders, and Rectors - I really just don't see this decks place in the new metagame.

[Mith]

If Stax really falls out of favor, then I'm certianly putting Allay back in the disenchant spot, and perhaps putting a misdirection in the sacred ground spot.

Here's my potential SB:
1 Vampiric Tutor (Alltime MVP)
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Skeletal Scrying (runner-up for Alltime MVP)
1 Ebony Charm
1 Shattering Pulse
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Misdirection (former Sacred Ground)
1 Allay (former Disenchant)
1 Aura Fracture
1 Circle of Protection: Red

Perhaps the second future sight I run maindeck could revert back to an Abyss...but that remains to be seen. I'm going to keep the two-main-one-sideboard configuration for the swords...they pull their weight all the time.

Being able to wish for a Misdirection is really good...and often unexpected. It's nice to be able to turn your three wishes into either a silver bullet, tutor, or counterspell.

Someone once mentioned running a lone Gush in Keeper...I don't really think it has a place in this deck.

[ShadowLotus]

Quote (Mith @ May 30 2003,12:30)If Stax really falls out of favor, then I'm certianly putting Allay back in the disenchant spot, and perhaps putting a misdirection in the sacred ground spot.

Even with Stax falling out-of-favor with GAT not being the "deck to beat" that it once was, I think you'll find Disenchant still being more effective than Allay in the sideboard - especially since TnT got a boost from the restrictions.  After all, how many problem match-ups call for Allay over Disenchant (in terms of performing better)?  I can't think of any offhand, myself.

Quote (Mith @ May 30 2003,12:30)Someone once mentioned running a lone Gush in Keeper...I don't really think it has a place in this deck.

That was probably me, since I was testing it in the Fire/Ice slot, when I was trying to figure out what to replace it with after the addition of Future Sight; however, that was many months ago.  It worked out very well, but it's not good enough in a deck that has much better options for the MD.  Obviously, it has great synergy with Future Sight and protecting the fragile manabase, but it ended up being way too random.  A lone Gush works in Hulk because of the 'Tog, but in Keeper it's just not worth the slot it took up.  Eventually, I ended up using that particular slot for a second Merchant Scroll, and I've been very pleased with that instead, so far, in testing.

Even with the environment changing again, I'm so happy with my Keeper configuration currently, that I don't anticipate making any huge updates until I start getting my ass kicked by some other archetype. )

[Zherbus]

If I ever ran Gush, it would be in the board to wish for more reliably acting as a free Teferi's Response. Using it as a maindeck card, where its not always going to be stellar probably won't be the greatest thing you can do to Keeper.

As for Allay, Keeper generally doesn't fear heavily enchantment driven decks. Even so, its marginal against them anyways. Against TnT, the part you worry about with them is the initial turns and thats where a regular Disenchant will shine as it can stop a Juggernaut AND a Survival. Allay probably won't be bought back in the early game, and the game is usually yours once you make it later on and can let Shattering Pulse bat clean up.

[Mith]

How do your guys feel about Misdirection in the board? I know that everyone seems to have given up on that card, but I really think it can still have uses...especially with three wishes to fetch it with. That spot in general is pretty vairiable for me...sometimes it's a plaguebearer, and sometimes it's a keg.

[ShadowLotus]

Quote (Mith @ May 30 2003,15:46)How do your guys feel about Misdirection in the board? I know that everyone seems to have given up on that card, but I really think it can still have uses...especially with three wishes to fetch it with. That spot in general is pretty vairiable for me...sometimes it's a plaguebearer, and sometimes it's a keg.

Honestly, I don't see any room for it in the sideboard anymore, and this is coming from a Keeper player who used to 'board it for a long time (I just cut it from the SB recently, actually).  Many decks are cutting down on Misdirectable effects, and Wishing for Misdirection (then being forced to pitch another blue card) isn't such a *hot* move anymore.  Plus, Suicide hasn't been a threat in a long time, especially in conjunction with the Fetchlands and Brainstorm; and, as well, more competent players are wary of casting large Misdirectable spells without some sort of protection.  Then, you have to look at the match-ups where you would 'board in the Misdirection in Games 2 + 3, and you'll find that it doesn't change the outcome enough against the more problematic higher-level archetypes.  In addition, since Keeper mirrors are on an all-time low, you'll find that there are better things to do with the MD Wishes than trying to win counter-wars against decks that have better drawing engines (and therefore better chances of resolving their key spells when they need to).

It's nice when it works the majority of the time, but I just can't see giving up the sideboard space to it in today's environment.  If there's a major shift in the overall metagame again, which might just happen, then it's a definite possibility for re-examination. =)

[LoA]

Re: Inclusion of The Abyss.  Actually, the deck I'm fearing the most right now is Tainted Mask.  It has enough disruption to handle combo and Stax (and can drop permanents around Tangle Wire), and it can smash normal aggro like Sligh and TnT in short fashion.  Sadly, I lack the cards to put this deck together, so I'm stuck relying on topdecking Disenchants and Swords--which I think is the way to go in bigger/more powered metas.

[Zherbus]

Based off what I expect in the new metagame, I made a rough list that I've been using lately. Rather than create a new thread, I think it should just be part of the Paragon Keeper evolution...that and I think I'm the only Paragon to take Keeper in this direction.

Duress - I initially included 3 of these in anticipation of Mind's Desire. However, lately with what is playable nowadays, Duress seems to work well against all the top decks in the format. Misdirection and Fire/Ice were cut for these.

It is obviously quite good against URPhid, Hulk, and various aggro-control decks that are lurking around. It is also good against Combo as a cheap counterspell and useful against Stax.

Against TnT, it used to be marginal but now look what it nabs:

Survival
Sylvan
Bloodmoon
Tanglewire
Memory Jar
(Ancestral if playing blue)
(Time Walk if playing blue)

Against Sligh, it wouldn't seem that great but early on it can grab any burn, PoP, Ankhs, and Scrolls.

Masticore - I'm using him only as an anticipation to the metagame change. I'm expecting more and more budget players running weenie based aggro, especially Ankh Sligh.

SB'd Gush - I anticipate Wastelands will be abundant and possibly a return of BBS.

The Abyss - I haven't put this back in, though I wouldn't be suprised if it made it back. Masticore should fill this cards role as a sweeper and let me run 3 swords.

3 Swords - Name one (upper tier) non-Keeper deck that doesn't get hurt my Swords to Plowshares. Hulk, TnT, Rector, Sligh, Karn, Dreanoughts, etc are all evidence that this card should be well represented in Keeper.

// Counter Magic
       2 Duress
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
// Kill
       1 Masticore
        1 Morphling
// Broken Utility/Card Draw
        1 Time Walk
        1 Future Sight
        1 Fact or Fiction
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Skeletal Scrying
        1 Library of Alexandria
        1 Zuran Orb
// Tutor/Search
        3 Brainstorm
        3 Cunning Wish
        1 Merchant Scroll
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Mystical Tutor
// Bullet
        3 Swords to Plowshares
        1 Balance
        1 Mind Twist
// SoLoMoxen
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Sol Ring
// Land
        1 Strip Mine
        2 City of Brass
        3 Wasteland
        1 Island
        3 Tundra
        3 Volcanic Island
        4 Flooded Strand
        3 Underground Sea
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  1 Diabolic Edict
SB:  1 Ebony Charm
SB:  1 Aura Fracture
SB:  1 Skeletal Scrying
SB:  1 Vampiric Tutor
SB:  1 Gush
SB:  1 Disenchant
SB:  1 Shattering Pulse
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares

[BillTheDuck]

One thing I don't understand is the general concensus that now that GroATog is going away, people will play more wastelands. I don't understand that logic because people ran more wastelands because of GroATog (and its Gushes) so they could get the all important first turn one off.

I don't think the abundance of wasteland will increase, but I think it will stay the same as current at most.

I really like the idea of duress (hey, duress, mana drain, and force of will is obviously the best counterbase ), but I'm a little iffy on the Masticore. I've never been a huge fan of it outside Phid decks, but that could just be bad personal experiences speaking.

Do you ever get screwed via your decrease in lands? I know brainstorm helps get the lands, but 26 sources with 4 fetch's seems a little low (I could just be wrong though).

If you are running 3 Stp and Masticore as well as increased draw/search from older versions of Keeper, I think the Zuran orb should probably step out, esspecially with so few permenant lands. Sligh shouldn't be too hard, and against ankh sligh, zorb just makes you take 2 (or more) to play a land so you can sac it again for 2. And it's not like you want to sac lands in that match-up because they are wastelanding them and making it painful to play more.

[Zharradan]

Quote (Zherbus @ June 03 2003,20:13)Duress ... Against Sligh, it wouldn't seem that great but early on it can grab any burn, PoP, Ankhs, and Scrolls.

It may not seem that great, but of course you shouldn't discount the Peek effect. Knowing what is in their hand lets you shape your next 3 or so turns accordingly. Game 1 with a Skeletal Scrying in hand, you can see if it is safe to scry or if you are in danger of being PoP'd into oblivion. etc.

[Zherbus]

Quote One thing I don't understand is the general concensus that now that GroATog is going away, people will play more wastelands. I don't understand that logic because people ran more wastelands because of GroATog (and its Gushes) so they could get the all important first turn one off.

I don't think the abundance of wasteland will increase, but I think it will stay the same as current at most.

Uhh, because decks like Sligh are viable again, perhaps?

Quote I really like the idea of duress (hey, duress, mana drain, and force of will is obviously the best counterbase ), but I'm a little iffy on the Masticore. I've never been a huge fan of it outside Phid decks, but that could just be bad personal experiences speaking.

Yeah, well I'm not sure about it either. I just think that using one of my win conditions to fill the role of Abyss might be a good idea. Also, it helps against Meddling Mage

Quote Do you ever get screwed via your decrease in lands? I know brainstorm helps get the lands, but 26 sources with 4 fetch's seems a little low (I could just be wrong though).

Not really, though I run 27 (LoA is in the card draw department). I'm wary of going down to 26 for that same reason and the fact that I choose to run Zuran Orb.

Quote If you are running 3 Stp and Masticore as well as increased draw/search from older versions of Keeper, I think the Zuran orb should probably step out, esspecially with so few permenant lands. Sligh shouldn't be too hard, and against ankh sligh, zorb just makes you take 2 (or more) to play a land so you can sac it again for 2. And it's not like you want to sac lands in that match-up because they are wastelanding them and making it painful to play more.

Well, I'm not sold on it 100% either. If it doesn't stay, I will bring in Fire/Ice in its place. However, I expect it to be more useful since I am running a total of 2 Scryings and it works better than anything when Future Sight is out.

Quote It may not seem that great, but of course you shouldn't discount the Peek effect. Knowing what is in their hand lets you shape your next 3 or so turns accordingly. Game 1 with a Skeletal Scrying in hand, you can see if it is safe to scry or if you are in danger of being PoP'd into oblivion. etc.

Yes, that too.

[Milton]

A couple of quick questions.  Bear with me, I haven't played Keeper in a while and your deck is very, very different from anything I have ever played.

1. Masticore is great, but aren't you worried about the potential to have your STP's Misdirected back to the Masticore?  The bueaty of STP against Tog is that it can't be Misdirected, unlike an edict.  Is this a problem?

2.  How did you come to run 3 Cunning Wish / 3 Brainstorm instead of 2 Cunning Wish / 4 Brainstorm?

3. Skeletal Scrying in the main deck and board?  I had troubles with this card against aggro decks.  They would hit me hard, burn me down to a low life total and we would both deplete our hands.  I would pull a SS and be unable to replenish while my opponent continued to top deck threats.  Is this card really worth two spots?

4. I like the Disenchant in the board, but why not a Dismantling Blow?  It serves as a card drawer in a pinch and is almost as easy to cast.  Hell, if you have enough mana to Wish for a Disenchant you have enough mana to cast a Dismantiling Blow.

5. Are you at all tempted to take out the Cities?  How important are they with fetchlands?

6. Future Sight is clearly a phenomonal card.  Why no green for Fastbond to really break Future Sight?  

7. A little off topic, but what do you think about the Burning Wish Keeper variants?

Thanks

[SliverKing]

Quote (Milton @ June 03 2003,11:17)6. Future Sight is clearly a phenomonal card.  Why no green for Fastbond to really break Future Sight?  

7. A little off topic, but what do you think about the Burning Wish Keeper variants?

Thanks

Not to speak for Zherbus, but from a ParagonKeeper perspective...

Future Sight doesnt need Fastbond to be broken. It doesnt need Grim/Power, it doesnt need any jankifying of Keeper to break.
In anything resembling a Paragon Build (fetchlands, brainstorms, cunning wish) Future Sight is a bomb all by itself.
Everytime I see these "Can we break Future Sight" threads I laugh out loud.  


Burning Wish is pretty much inferior to Cunning Wish in every way. Its off color, its a sorcery, it fetches inferior cards.

[Zherbus]

Quote 1. Masticore is great, but aren't you worried about the potential to have your STP's Misdirected back to the Masticore?  The bueaty of STP against Tog is that it can't be Misdirected, unlike an edict.  Is this a problem?

Most Hulk builds only run 2 Misdirections, and I won't drop Masticore until its time to win. Masticore isn't a very good choice against Hulk, but its better against the rest of the field I suspect.

Quote .  How did you come to run 3 Cunning Wish / 3 Brainstorm instead of 2 Cunning Wish / 4 Brainstorm?

Mostly because I find myself using Cunning Wish quite often because of the reliance I have for whats in my board. I would love another Brainstorm, but I just feel I have room for it and I don't think Cunning Wish is what to cut for it.

Quote 3. Skeletal Scrying in the main deck and board?  I had troubles with this card against aggro decks.  They would hit me hard, burn me down to a low life total and we would both deplete our hands.  I would pull a SS and be unable to replenish while my opponent continued to top deck threats.  Is this card really worth two spots?

For now, yes. If Misdirection really proves to be gone from the metagame, I might consider bringing in Braingeyser for it. Stroke is really too slow, especially if you consider that it takes you 1-2 turns (getting attacked in the meanwhile) longer to resolve a Stroke for the same amount. So far for me, I've been in love with it.

Quote 4. I like the Disenchant in the board, but why not a Dismantling Blow?  It serves as a card drawer in a pinch and is almost as easy to cast.  Hell, if you have enough mana to Wish for a Disenchant you have enough mana to cast a Dismantiling Blow.

Well it's easier to Wish for and its primarily against TnT where you need to stop what they do FAST. The potential of casting it a turn slower does not appeal to me if it lets them Survival once, swing with a Juggernaut, or whatever.

Quote 5. Are you at all tempted to take out the Cities?  How important are they with fetchlands?

Yes, but its often given me the color fix I've needed. I hate them when I look at the list, but not once have I regretted including a pair.

Quote . Future Sight is clearly a phenomonal card.  Why no green for Fastbond to really break Future Sight?

Because then I would either be adding a 5th color, returning Keeper to its crappy and unreliable manabase it used to be infamous for. Or I would be cutting red and losing to Hulk and URPhid.

Quote 7. A little off topic, but what do you think about the Burning Wish Keeper variants?

I think someone said it best when they said that the decks lack of instants really affects control mirrors, most notably the Keeper mirror. Personally, I don't care for it because I feel it relys on too much and really consider it an entirely different deck.

[jpmeyer]

When you wish for VT, what is it usually fetching?  From what I've found, if I replace it with Lim-Dul's Vault I can usually instead set up a draw into a specific card I want while getting card advantage by stacking a draw spell above it.

And there are few things that I love more than Vaulting up the next 5 cards to be Future Sight, Land, Mox, Drain, Land \n\n

[Zherbus]

Quote When you wish for VT, what is it usually fetching?  From what I've found, if I replace it with Lim-Dul's Vault I can usually instead set up a draw into a specific card I want while getting card advantage by stacking a draw spell above it.

Future Sight or Morphling typically.

[SliverKing]

Quote (Zherbus @ June 03 2003,11:59)

Quote When you wish for VT, what is it usually fetching?  From what I've found, if I replace it with Lim-Dul's Vault I can usually instead set up a draw into a specific card I want while getting card advantage by stacking a draw spell above it.

Future Sight or Morphling typically.

OR balance/Yawgwill

[Zherbus]

Yeah Will too I gotta say though, recently I've needed Balance less and less.

[Milton]

Quote
Most Hulk builds only run 2 Misdirections, and I won't drop Masticore until its time to win. Masticore isn't a very good choice against Hulk, but its better against the rest of the field I suspect.

OK.  Good point.  What do you consider to be "the rest of the field" then?  Sligh?  Stompy?  Random stuff?  It would seem to me that Masticore is inferior to Morphling when playing against TnT.   Also, if you don't drop the Core' "until it's time to win" against Tog, then isn't Morphling better?  It gives your opponent one less turn, doesn't cost cards, etc...

I liked Masticore as well, but in the current environment it seems inferior to Morphling against what I would consider to be the toughest matchups in the metagame: TnT and Tog.  Then again, you might have a good record against these decks and have no reason to fear them.

You mentioned Sligh earlier, but I would guess that your deck would have a very bad match-up against Ankh Sligh packing 4 Price of Progress and Cursed Scrolls.  Am I wrong?

Finally, if you are using Balance less and less, is it still necessary?  

Thanks.

[fdzero]

You said in other thread you were testing Tog in your Keeper. I guess it wasn't any good because you not even mentioned it now, but I wanna know your conclusions/testing results.