Paragon Keeper 2003 (Zherbus Remix)

[Milton]

Zherbus.  This thread has gone on a long, long time.  Maybe you should repost your current decklist.

[Zherbus]

As it is now:

//  Counter Magic
        2 Duress
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
//  Kill
        1 Masticore
        1 Morphling
//  Broken Utility/Card Draw
        1 Time Walk
        1 Future Sight
        1 Fact or Fiction
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Skeletal Scrying
        1 Library of Alexandria
        1 Zuran Orb
//  Tutor/Search
        3 Brainstorm
        3 Cunning Wish
        1 Merchant Scroll
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Mystical Tutor
//  Bullet
        3 Swords to Plowshares
        1 Balance
        1 Mind Twist
//  SoLoMoxen
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Sol Ring
//  Land
        1 Strip Mine
        2 City of Brass
        3 Wasteland
        1 Island
        3 Tundra
        3 Volcanic Island
        4 Flooded Strand
        3 Underground Sea
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  1 Diabolic Edict
SB:  1 Ebony Charm
SB:  1 Aura Fracture
SB:  1 Skeletal Scrying
SB:  1 Vampiric Tutor
SB:  1 Gush
SB:  1 Disenchant
SB:  1 Shattering Pulse
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares

The only slots I am not 100% on is the Zorb, Masticore, and the possible 4th Brainstorm > land. Depending on what you're playing against Masticore, Morphling, and Trenches all kill about just as fast and efficient. I won't even debate which one is the king, but one should be a phling and the second should be based on what you expect to see.

The Zorb could become another Duress, but the last time I ran 3 there was just so much black. The stress on the manabase was incredible and I would probably have to swap the Island for a Sea. Then I get to REALLY lose to Bloodmoon. Ick!

The whole reason Zorb is in there is because I respect what Ankh Sligh can do. I expect it to be back in the metagame and Zuran Orb is the most potent life gain card you can squeeze in.

I already touched on 26 mana with 4 Brainstorms. The people from NG seem to have a hard on for it, but they also have (from my understanding) a low amount of Workshop decks on a regular basis and a huge amount of Suicide Black decks (Suicide really should be dead because who plays Suicide in a field of Sligh and TnT?).

Also, like I said, everytime I ran that configuration I got some real ass early game hands. Only 26 lands in Keeper to me was like a recurring goatse.cx. Unbearable. Or maybe I'm just not as savage as other guys.

In my sideboard, I have a few changes planned but I'll wait until the testing has been done and the time is right.

[BillTheDuck]

If Zuran orb is really only there for Ankh Sligh (something I'm not totally convinced will make a comeback) then I think the slot should go to another life gain or anti aggro slot. My reasoning is this; Against ankh sligh your most precious and important resource is your mana. Their 5 strips and 4 ankhs make it hard for you to keep a decent amount of land in play, the last thing you want to be doing is saccing them. Sure Zorb cuts your losses vs Wasteland, but thats not why its there and it only works when you have Zorb out first. Im not saying its not a good thing to have in the matchup, but there are better things, things that might be better in other matchups (or just not as dead).

[Zherbus]

Quote Against ankh sligh your most precious and important resource is your mana. Their 5 strips and 4 ankhs make it hard for you to keep a decent amount of land in play, the last thing you want to be doing is saccing them.

The idea is to take whatever anal raping you have to take to keep Ankhs off the board. After that, gain life via Zuran Orb. You can run that cycling card too, but I'm not going to debate it anymore since its been done to death in like 8 different threads.

[Amuraivel]

Masticore>Morphling #2

Masticore you can drop early and go for the trounce.  Despite the brutal up keep it destroys the oposing army, and blocks to boot, at 4/4 it is solid.  And as I run Power Monolith, it gives me an extra target for the Power.  Power Masticore is like a masticore on crack and pcp.

--Amuraivel

[Smmenen]

Zherbus,

Do you have a more recent list?

Steve

[MoreFling]

Although I'm not Steve, I'm assuming it's pretty close to what I'm currently playing:

Creatures
 1 Morphling

Spells
  3 Duress
  4 Force of Will
  4 Mana Drain
  1 Time Walk
  1 Future Sight
  1 Fact or Fiction
  1 Ancestral Recall
  1 Yawgmoth's Will
  1 Skeletal Scrying
  4 Brainstorm
  3 Cunning Wish
  1 Demonic Tutor
  2 Swords to Plowshares
  1 Balance
  1 Mind Twist
  1 Mox Jet
  1 Mox Pearl
  1 Mox Ruby
  1 Mox Sapphire
  1 Black Lotus
  1 Sol Ring
  1 Goblin Trenches
  1 Mystical Tutor
  1 Fire/Ice

Lands
  1 Library of Alexandria
  1 Strip Mine
  3 Wasteland
  1 Island
  3 Tundra
  3 Volcanic Island
  2 Flooded Strand
  4 Underground Sea
  3 Polluted Delta

Sideboard
  1 Skeletal Scrying
  1 Swords to Plowshares
  4 Red Elemental Blast
  1 Blue Elemental Blast
  1 Circle of Protection: Red
  1 Vampiric Tutor
  1 Disenchant
  1 Shattering Pulse
  1 Fire/Ice
  1 Stifle
  1 Sacred Ground
  1 Gilded Light
 
This is a c/p for the lazy people who won't click


 here.

EDIT: Formatting \n\n

[Nimrod]

I was going to create my own topic, but I guess I should rather post here.

Here is my latest keeper decklist, those fainthearted take a seat:

//NAME: Keeper.DEC
// Brokenness
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Time Walk
        1 Mind Twist
// Aggro meassures
        1 Balance
        2 Swords to Plowshares
// Kill
        1 Masticore
        1 Morphling
        1 Gorilla Shaman
// Drawing
        1 Fact or Fiction
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Future Sight
        1 Skeletal Scrying
        4 Brainstorm
// Tutoring
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Mystical Tutor
        3 Cunning Wish
// Counters
        2 Stifle
        4 Mana Drain
        4 Force of Will
// Mana
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Library of Alexandria
        1 Island
        1 Flooded Strand
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Wasteland
        3 Volcanic Island
        4 Underground Sea
        3 Tundra
        4 Polluted Delta
SB:  1 Rune of Protection: Artifac
SB:  1 Shattering Pulse
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  1 Disenchant
SB:  1 Stifle
SB:  1 Coffin Purge
SB:  1 Aura Fracture
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 Vampiric Tutor
SB:  1 Masticore
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast

I admit that I got some of the tech (read, the weissman mode) from some paragon who doesnt want his name to be included here.

Anyway, the heavy LD is one of the things that stands out the most, 5 wastes, Shaman back in the MD, and even Stifle adds to the LD theme. Decks nowadays have tendency to get svgly h8ed from LD, Combo decks get slowed down for years if you manage to tie down their mana in the first few turns, Hulk runs on low mana, so its great there, even decks such as Stacks and others get svgly hated from this.

Other thing that stands out is maindeck stifle, well, the enviroment is shifting to combo more and more, and stifle is a great way to counter the storm spells and rector too, further on, it counters fetches so it adds to the LD theme, it stops opposing wastes so it acts like protection from LD, and does so many randomness that it is very rarely dead, I once jokingly said in #themanadrain that stifle was the blue sinkhole, and it has many times performed as so for me, whats more, at instant speed. Besides, in the VERY RARE case that you couldnt use it, FoWs and Mastis give an use to any death card you might have.

Which brings me to the next point, the kill, I am currently sporting 1 Morphling and 1 Masticore, Masti is there because its the silver bullet agaisnt many stuff, Hulk has tog as its Abyss that swings, and I have masti, and it pings aswell, can block forever and keep regenerating and it will just randomly take games on its own, whats more, It allows you to cut some removal slots because of all its aggro hosing functions, and, really, 4 generic mana is easier for a t1 deck than 3 mana when 2 of those are on your tertiary colors (hint hint, masti is easier to cast than goblin trenches when you are playing on the most broken format ever).

This is around what I feel keeper should be for the enviroment we should be facing soon, 2 stifle md + 3 cunning wish have been great agaisnt combo, and Im yet to lose a game agaisnt any variant of combo i have played with these build im showing you, LD has been great agaisnt many decks too, and while the deck is still gaining in redundancy, I dont have to run that much narrow cards because im playing another cards more generally useful (see, Masti >>> StP #3 + ZOrb + etc MD).

I still dont like trenches though, and even less so since I have seen people run timetwister to support it, which just doesnt seem right in a combo enviroment.

So.. comments? flames? questions?

EDIT: Added the scrying to the MD since people kindly informed me that due an error i was playing 29 mana sources, weh.\n\n

[Fishhead]

Quote Other thing that stands out is maindeck stifle, well, the enviroment is shifting to combo more and more, and stifle is a great way to counter the storm spells and rector ...

How do you keep Stifle in your hand when your Combo opponent packs 4 Duress and 4 Therapy?

[Nimrod]

Quote (Fishhead @ July 16 2003,13:40)

Quote Other thing that stands out is maindeck stifle, well, the enviroment is shifting to combo more and more, and stifle is a great way to counter the storm spells and rector ...

How do you keep Stifle in your hand when your Combo opponent packs 4 Duress and 4 Therapy?

First, you have to take into account that LD mode seriously slows down combo, if they cant get the draw spells through, they will topdeck very few disruption.

That being said, 4 brainstorms MD do help hiding it, and I have sometimes countered a duress if I felt it was the right choice. Stifle counters what nothing else can, so you might want to protect it. In all honesty I dont tend to keep stifles in hand, let alone in multiples, unless I feel I will be having to counter the tendrils/desire soon, because it usually works better to slow their development than to try and fight when they are in the same or better conditions than you are.

Besides, 2 Stifles and 3 wishes are usually good enough to rely on topdecking, and post SB you can MD 3 stifles and up your total counter count with REBs, which added to LD, makes their development even slower, which, needless to say, works even better for you. This all is so synergystic I feel like im playing old GAT.

[Zherbus]

I'm out of state right now, so this has to be short and sweet. This is mostly what I have sleeved.

Disrupting Keeper
//  Counter Magic
       2 Duress
       4 Force of Will
       4 Mana Drain
//  Kill
       1 [Win Condition]
       2 Gorilla Shaman
//  Broken Utility/Card Draw
       1 Time Walk
       1 Future Sight
       1 Fact or Fiction
       1 Ancestral Recall
       1 Yawgmoth's Will
       1 Skeletal Scrying
       1 Library of Alexandria
//  Tutor/Search
       4 Brainstorm
       3 Cunning Wish
       1 Merchant Scroll
       1 Demonic Tutor
       1 Mystical Tutor
//  Bullet
       2 Swords to Plowshares
       1 Balance
       1 Mind Twist
//  SoLoMoxen
       1 Mox Jet
       1 Mox Pearl
       1 Mox Ruby
       1 Mox Sapphire
       1 Black Lotus
       1 Sol Ring
//  Land
       1 Strip Mine
       1 City of Brass / Fetchland #5
       4 Wasteland
       1 Island
       3 Tundra
       3 Volcanic Island
       2 Flooded Strand
       2 Polluted Delta
       3 Underground Sea
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  1 Stifle
SB:  1 Coffin Purge
SB:  1 Aura Fracture
SB:  1 Skeletal Scrying
SB:  1 Vampiric Tutor
SB:  1 Gush
SB:  1 Disenchant
SB:  1 Shattering Pulse
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares  

Shamans are huge. Stax, combo, Shining, Hulk, etc are all wounded by a hungry Shaman. With the exception of Hulk, all of these really have to play a whole different ball game when Shaman hits the board.

Wastelands are huge. Combined with Shamans, you can really stunt the combo player until you can arrive to the mid-late game where you are the most successful.

Duress is huge maindeck, it gives you what you need when you need it. Stifle is only good against combo mid-late game where as Duress goes to work right away. 3 would be wonderful but the manabase has a hard time supporting that especially combined with needing white and red. (Fishhead, you ar probably leaning towards the same direction as I on Duress vs. Stifle.)

Sb'd Stifle is the way to go. Its nice for killing a fetchland, but this is Keeper and you don't like settling with half-assed effectiveness. It's one of those timely things that only Cunning Wish can bring you. (Also note Coffin Purge, which is in essence Duress proof and stops Rector.)

The win condition I am running right now is Trenches. Its quicker that Morphling, it's great against Stax, and it still has a strong element of resilence to spot removal.

I hate this build, though I believe it fits the current metagame the best. I hate it because a lack of Morphing makes me feel naked.

I don't want to comment on the matchup analysis since its worthless and I think pretentious people who do such things only to make their lists look superior are also as worthless. How good is a list of matchups where everything seems favroable? Sense some bitterness? Well you should.

Just the facts here. You have tons of disruption, loads of artifact hate, and a strong win condition. You can do the math. I won't lie to you, though. There are some bitchin' matchups and I'm constantly shifting my deck to try and accomidate them. Hell... this list, like so many others, will likely be outdated by the time I play in the TMD Championships (August 2nd).

Actually, some cards have already changed, I think.

[CrazyCarl]

Well, change Duress for Stifle, and Skeletal Scrying for a 3rd Plow and that's what I won Waterbury with.  It's such a good deck.  Shaman is fucking amazing in this metagame, and two well placed Wastes are devastating against all the top decks in the field.  People just aren't prepared for disruption like they used to be, and it's a good idea to take advantage of it.

[Kerzkid11]

Interesting build Zherbus, I just want to ask the people who have been testing it, how good is Goblin Trenches? Why is it better than Morphling or even Masticore? Especially with the mana bases Keeper runs these days it just doesnt seem optimal. You're running 4/5 fetch 5 Strips and 6 Solomoxen, boils down to not too many lands to sacrifice to it.

Overall I like the way you have evolved keeper, and I think the shifting point in keeper builds is Stife vs. Duress. Honestly Stife looks REALLY great in my tesing, but sometimes it just does nothing, or gets Therapied/Duressed out of your hand vs Tendrils. Duress proactive which is great against combo (Packing Duress/Therapy), and can just win the control match if you nab the right thing early, especially if your opponent keeps a mediocre/decent hand- It can win right there. Carl,being the biggest supporter of Stifle, (as far as I see) what's your insight on this?

Kerz

[CrazyCarl]

Zherbus is a terrible deckbuilder and should have Stifle in there.

Honestly, Trenches is amazing and is probably the best kill card availible to Keeper.  Stifle is great at obviously countering fetchlands, but it also stops Wastes, and random other shit like Pernicous Deed.  When used on a fetch or Waste, it's such good tempo, and tempo is what Magic is all aboot.

[Dante]

Hmm...if you're going to be facing other keeper decks that reply on the traditional morphling, doesn't it bother you that you have no way to it to kill him other than balance?  If your local metagame had, say, 3-4 traditional morphling Keepers out of 12-15 players, would you board an edict?

Dante

[Kerzkid11]

Quote (CrazyCarl @ July 17 2003,23:00)Zherbus is a terrible deckbuilder and should have Stifle in there.

Honestly, Trenches is amazing and is probably the best kill card availible to Keeper.  Stifle is great at obviously countering fetchlands, but it also stops Wastes, and random other shit like Pernicous Deed.  When used on a fetch or Waste, it's such good tempo, and tempo is what Magic is all aboot.

WHY is trenches that good? With few sacrificable lands and it only producing 1/1s that die for a keg for zero/ fire/ice / etc, I just dont see it being as amazing as you say it is. I'd just like to see some reasons, other than "I won Waterbury with Trenches.Keeper.Dec so there!".    

Also is 1 win condition enough? If your builds of keeper get popualr enough, I see extract being played, and while beating Trench Keeper, it also is good against Combo.

It doesn't even pitch to FoW for god sake! I just dont see a senario when you play it and have enough disposable lands to create enough guys to win a a game while still being able to do stuff? Or, do you play trenches as a more Combo-esque kill when you cast it, and win next turn? I would figure the latter because after saccing all your lands you wont be able to do much.

Personnally, I just like Morph/Masti better. It seems Trenches has a masticore-like effect, while trenches produces 1/1s, masticore pings for 1. They both involve sacrificing resources too.

---------------------------------------------------
Also, I think a cool name for the deck would be WWI.dec, or Keeper Circa 1914, because of World War One and its association with Trench Warfare.- Random Musings from a US History d00d.

[Matt The Great]

Trenches can be used for the "big kill" or just to create fast blockers or you just make four tokens - two lands is not too much to lose when you're in control of the game - and then you win in 4-5 turns, depending on how much the opponent has damaged himself. It's also 3cc, so it's easier to win counterwars over, and it's great vs Stax too.

[PsychoCid]

My issues with the card are its inability to protect itself and the inherent weakness in battling back fat.

Perhaps these items are a non-issue given the amazing consistency of Keeper at this point, but I believe they needed to be brought up for sake of discussion.  So, by all means, feel free.

[CrazyCarl]

OK FEVER, I'M POSTING SOMETHING ABOUT MAGIC OK!?

Ok.  The reason we play trenches is?

I WON A GODDAMN MOX TOURNEY WITH IT OK!?  IT'S GOOD!

Seriously.  It's a cheap win condition that you can lay whenever the hell you want.  It's like Psychatog, only a lot worse, and better against Stax.  Speaking of Stax, it gives you an extra permanent for every land you have in play that you don't need.  It makes it alot harder for them to acheive a lock if you have it in play.

Cid:  The point of Trenches is that it's an Enchantment.  Who plays enchantment destruction?  If anyone's gonna kill it, it's likely to be through a Wish.  And even if they do you have Timetwister AND Yawgmoth's Will to get it back.

The MAIN reason I play it is because I hate drawing Morphling before I want it.  It just doesn't do anything.  Running 2, you have a deck where you have 2 cards that don't do anything(unless you want to pitch them or whatever, but that's a shitty argument.  Oh, I can run Dromar's Charm because I can pitch it to Force of Will).

Running 1 Trenches, you have ONE card that doesn't do anything as opposed to two.  It doesn't hurt that it's cheap to cast, and you don't HAVE to use it right away.  Believe it or not, it's OPTIONAL to make tokens, and you don't have to sacrifice all of your land.  Depending on the situation, make 2-4 tokens and beat down, or if you want to win fast, make 8-12 and kill them in 1-2 turns.

In "place" of the other Morphling I have Timetwister, which, like Morphling, doesn't do anything, however, it's more useful, not more often, but it's more flexible.  It'll get pitched as often as that Morphling would have, however, it has great comeback potential or solidifies a lead where you have Trenches or Shaman+Wastes in play.

The other way I was thinking of playing the deck was to replace the Twister and Trenches with 2 Decree of Justice.  This means you NEVER have dead cards in hand, plus for 5-6 mana EOT you can make dudes and beat them down.  Later in the game, you can either like, Drain out some Angels or just Will it back.  As things stand however, there are ALOT of Duresses out there, and I like the recursion that Twister offers should anything happen to Will/Trenches.

Oh yeah, even though no one is saying anything about it, Shaman is the nut.  It's the reason to play Keeper.  Though one could play Sligh and play four...

Dante: My sideboard plays Diabolic Edict.

CCW's Sideboard
1 Stifle
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Coffin Purge
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Disenchant
1 Shattering Pulse
4 Red Elemental Blast\n\n

[Fishhead]

Quote WHY is trenches that good?

It makes the most sense to compare Trenches to Masticore.  

1) Pay 4, get a 'Core.  Pay 2 more, do a point.  Feed him a card a turn, thereby crimping your manabase and your hand.  Win in 5 if your opponent cannot deal.
2) Pay 3, get a Trenches.  Pay 2 more, get 2 points.  Feed it some land, thereby crimping your manabase.  Usually win in about 3 if your opponent cannot deal.

So if its comparable to Masticore, it can't be too bad.  Basically, in the same way that 'Core is strong against Aggro, so is Trench.  It's a reasonable choice.  

----

The question that was being bandied about after the tournament tonite though was whether Hulk has a bad matchup now that GroTog is gone and people have figured out how to hate Trix out.  I felt OK with CarlKeeper but no one else seemed to feel that Keeper was equal in the matchup.

So, how are Keeper players feeling against Hulk?  I lost 2-0 tonite, unable to stop a first turn Library in one game (ironic, no?) and unable to draw anything useful after LDing Hulk to zero permenants on turn 4 in game two.  Frown.  I actually did better in the practice games with the non-LD version.  Frown again.  I'd like to think its 50/50, but Hulk can devote a lot of SB real-estate to the control matchup.  I brought in 2 Duress and 2 REB, but the local Hulks easily go to 4 Duress after boarding.  More frowning.

----

Quote (Fishhead, you ar probably leaning towards the same direction as I on Duress vs. Stifle.)

I thought I'd be running late tonite so I pulled 2 Duress, 1 Morphling, 1 Masticore out of my test Keeper and put in the Carl Tech Pack - intending to just play some fun games and see how Tech worked out.  I ended up arriving on time and playing five rounds.  My impression was that Tech is funny, but I want the Duress for the control matchups.  Ironically again, I end up losing to Tendrils in the final round when the deck utterly poops on me.  Grrr.  Stifle was mostly a non-entity except in the previously described round 4 against Hulk.  It kept me from losing immediately to Tendrils, but forced me into a topdeck war which was ultimately lost. :-/

[UnstableCornBread]

I must say the killing of the fetchland was crippling and very surprising, as well as the other 4 land destoyers :/ Game 2 should have been yours, we both know that. I just dont think that Stifle deserves a maindeck slot in Keeper. Its nice in certain situations but I can think of several cards that sould take its place IMO.


<3

[Fever]

I honestly dont know if i could run Keeper with only one Trenches as the kill, it just seems very fragile to me. However, if i were to try it, i would definetly run some other form of recursion besides Will, as Carl has done. Im not sure if Timetwister would be my choice, but you get the point.

Also, TWO Shamans seems like a lot to me, but i guess it depends on metagame.


@Carl
Magic!? WTF is that?

[Milton]

Quote So, how are Keeper players feeling against Hulk?  I lost 2-0 tonite, unable to stop a first turn Library in one game (ironic, no?) and unable to draw anything useful after LDing Hulk to zero permenants on turn 4 in game two.  Frown.  I actually did better in the practice games with the non-LD version.  Frown again.  I'd like to think its 50/50, but Hulk can devote a lot of SB real-estate to the control matchup.  I brought in 2 Duress and 2 REB, but the local Hulks easily go to 4 Duress after boarding.  More frowning.

In my testing with Keeper in preparation for GenCon, it seems thin.  It has trouble playing threats and it has trouble dealing with threats.  Hulk has more threats, more counters and more card drawing.  The Keeper deck I'm running now has four Cunning Wish, instead of the traditional three, along with cards like Pisonic Blast and Dominate in the board to help deal with threats.  It's still not enough and my opponents in many cases are able to catch me with my pants down by slowly building up, Duressing around my counters and "going off" in one big turn.

I guess it's my opinion that it's very hard to be reactive with Keeper right now with the field dominated by varoius combo decks and even aggro-control decks that run so much hand disruption, card drawing and permission.

But, I like the Shaman and Wastelands.  They do add a more aggressive element.

[Zherbus]

Quote (Dante @ July 18 2003,02:08)Hmm...if you're going to be facing other keeper decks that reply on the traditional morphling, doesn't it bother you that you have no way to it to kill him other than balance?  If your local metagame had, say, 3-4 traditional morphling Keepers out of 12-15 players, would you board an edict?

Dante

Yeah, I would probably Wish for it.

Quote Zherbus is a terrible deckbuilder and should have Stifle in there.

Translation: "Zherbus is usually pretty dead on, and I too put Duress in my deck. I now rely on Stifle as more of a Wish target since Duress is a more powerful maindeck option and Stifle can be pretty situational."

Quote I honestly dont know if i could run Keeper with only one Trenches as the kill, it just seems very fragile to me. However, if i were to try it, i would definetly run some other form of recursion besides Will, as Carl has done. Im not sure if Timetwister would be my choice, but you get the point.

Well, thats why we don't pay attention to the detail of my build since I even said it's been altered already. Either way, 1 Trenches is enough, in case it isn't, you have 2 Shamans. Somewhere in there, you could always just run Twister or a Phling (like I did until a few nights ago) over something.

The thing that amazes me though, is that that is a minor detail. Who cares what Keeper wins with? It's the Wastelands, Shamans, and Duresses that are really edging out other decks.

Anyways, I already have a brainstormed decklisting in my head for the TMD Champs. I'll be tweaking, mostly with Hulk in mind (this is Keepers BAD matchup), but also combo which I expect alot of.

[Fishhead]

Quote Either way, 1 Trenches is enough, in case it isn't, you have 2 Shamans.

My double-secret tech (which I will share since I am not going to GenCon) was to run a Crypt.  This is good against Trix and it gives you the option of the Twister-Crypt kill.  It also punches Y-Will, which is the cause of so many losses that its practically worth running a card which says "I cost 0 and counter Will." :-/

Still, as someone pointed out, "Your new build makes Cap good again."  Hmm, yes.  Not that it hasn't been viable ever since Future Sight started taking over, but yes.

[CrazyCarl]

Quote (Fishhead @ July 18 2003,10:51)

Quote Either way, 1 Trenches is enough, in case it isn't, you have 2 Shamans.

My double-secret tech (which I will share since I am not going to GenCon) was to run a Crypt.  This is good against Trix and it gives you the option of the Twister-Crypt kill.  It also punches Y-Will, which is the cause of so many losses that its practically worth running a card which says "I cost 0 and counter Will." :-/

Still, as someone pointed out, "Your new build makes Cap good again."  Hmm, yes.  Not that it hasn't been viable ever since Future Sight started taking over, but yes.

Actually, with so many Swords in the deck and Coffin Purge, it's POSSIBLE to get the "crypt kill" just removing all their dudes and then willing, then twistering.  It's a long shot, but it COULD be done.

Also, busZherb: I concede, Duress belongs main deck.  It's just more flexible disruption than Stifle.  In certain metagames(IE: What I expected at Waterbury, Rectors and Tendrils etc) Stifle could well be very good in the MD.

[urza's child]

ever since i saw carl hand out some SERIOUS ass kicking on a platter with keeper, my interest has increased in it but i have some questions. here's the list im working with:

//  Counter Magic
     2 Duress
     4 Force of Will
     4 Mana Drain
//  Kill
     1 Goblin Trenches
     2 Gorilla Shaman
//  Broken Utility/Card Draw
     1 Time Walk
     1 Future Sight
     1 Fact or Fiction
     1 Ancestral Recall
     1 Yawgmoth's Will
     1 Library of Alexandria
//  Tutor/Search
     4 Brainstorm
     3 Cunning Wish
     1 Merchant Scroll
     1 Demonic Tutor
     1 Mystical Tutor
//  Bullet
     3 Swords to Plowshares
     1 Balance
     1 Mind Twist
//  SoLoMoxen
     1 Mox Jet
     1 Mox Pearl *
     1 Mox Ruby *
     1 Mox Sapphire *
     1 Black Lotus *
     1 Sol Ring
//  Land
     1 Strip Mine
     4 Wasteland
     1 Island
     3 Tundra
     3 Volcanic Island
     1 Flooded Strand
     4 Polluted Delta
     3 Underground Sea
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  1 Stifle
SB:  1 Coffin Purge
SB:  1 Aura Fracture
SB:  1 Skeletal Scrying
SB:  1 Vampiric Tutor
SB:  1 Gush
SB:  1 Disenchant
SB:  1 Shattering Pulse
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares

Okay the main this is... How do i sideboard. I am so unbelievably clueless on how to sb against the guantlet (hulk, stax, mirror, phid, sligh, sui, etc)

Second, is this a good deck to bring into a field of purely aggro? How does this deck do against sligh? Maybe should i use moat sb because of the heavy aggro and sligh?

Thanks

[ScaldMonger]

Urza's Child, it looks like you cut the MD Skeletal Scrying for another StP. Now I understand you seem to be interested in gearing this deck towards an aggro heavy environment, but is that the right card to cut? If your meta is gonna be mostly aggro, your Cunning Wishes are most likely going to go to creature removal. You seem to have no mass hand filler in there, and from my experience with the deck, that's a bad thing. Stroke isn't the best answer, as many have realized over the last couple of weeks, but I feel that the Skrying needs to be there.

[CrazyCarl]

OK, here's the list I've settled on.

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
1 Future Sight
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister

2 Duress
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Mind Twist
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance

2 Gorilla Shaman

1 Goblin Trenches

1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Island
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

SB
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Stifle
1 Coffin Purge
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Disenchant
1 Shattering Pulse
3 Red Elemental Blast

I cut an REB because I only ever bring in 3.  It used to be out 3 plows for 3 REB and leave one to Wish for(which I didn't do that often), so I decided to axe one for another Plow which I'd want to board in against like Sligh and shit(which I think can be VERY good right now believe it or not).

All I can say, is stop being pussies and put Timetwister back in your deck... dammit.

[Azhrei]

Quote (Zherbus @ July 18 2003,11:08)

Quote Zherbus is a terrible deckbuilder and should have Stifle in there.

Translation: "Zherbus is usually pretty dead on, and I too put Duress in my deck. I now rely on Stifle as more of a Wish target since Duress is a more powerful maindeck option and Stifle can be pretty situational."

Translation: I wish I were JP Meyer and had invented RDK three years ago.