Green/Red TNT

[Piggy]

G/R/U is the way to be in my opinion, but the safekeeper seems to be an answer to several of the problem spells for TNT(STP, burn, smother, fire, even blue blast) it is definitely worth testing.

[Dante]

Quote (Piggy @ Mar. 12 2003,14:48)G/R/U is the way to be in my opinion, but the safekeeper seems to be an answer to several of the problem spells for TNT(STP, burn, smother, fire, even blue blast) it is definitely worth testing.

I don't think Safekeeper is quite good enough to make the cut.

Early game - I'd rather draw fat or welders to put pressure on (not that welders put pressure directly, but any survival or dead fat can now come back).  Safekeeper with no Fat or welders is dumb.

Mid Game - If I have fat but no survival, I'd rather draw a welder to play tricks with artifacts to protect them than hamstring my mana using Safekeeper.  Or just draw more fat.  If I have survival going with no fat, I'd rather use it to get fat.  If I don't have survival or fat at this point, I'm not in too good of shape.

Basically I can't think of a maindeck card I'd like to cut for the Safekeeper and there are much better sideboard options for most matchups..

Dante

[pinkfloyd]

A quick question on why you would crack your fetchland for a 3rd taiga over a basic forest? Even if he was only running 2 md blood moons there is still a chance at one dropping. I don't see the need for so many red mana sources in play at one time when you are playing against a deck that has hate against nonbasics wastelands/strip/blood moon. Is there something I missed?

[Dante]

Quote (pinkfloyd @ Mar. 13 2003,03:31)A quick question on why you would crack your fetchland for a 3rd taiga over a basic forest? Even if he was only running 2 md blood moons there is still a chance at one dropping. I don't see the need for so many red mana sources in play at one time when you are playing against a deck that has hate against nonbasics wastelands/strip/blood moon. Is there something I missed?

Thinking about it, I can't really say why...it's possible I only drew 2 fetchlands -> 2 taigas (to be sure I could Anger/Welder) and simply drew into the 3rd Taiga.

Dante

[Cancerman]

I've played without basic mountains in my version and was found often without that needed red mana source. Also, there seems to be a lot of non-basic hate around these day, especially against TnT and GAT. The use of basic forests and mountains make your mana base more stable against Wastelands, Dust Bowls, PoP and B2B. Also, using maindeck Blood Moon really scraps non-basic mana, while not affecting your own mana base. One Taiga on board should be enough, while you have the possibility to get your basic forests and mountains.

[Fishhead]

Quote Basically I can't think of a maindeck card I'd like to cut for the Safekeeper and there are much better sideboard options for most matchups..

Depends on your construction and your metagame.  Lyrist isnt that great for me MD so I didnt feel bad about moving it to the side and then replacing it with Naturalizes ultimately.  (Lyrist cant kill Dreadnaught.    Anyway, utility slots like that seem open to becoming Safekeepers in certain metagames.

Anyway, I am still undecided on Safekeeper.  I disagree with the theory that its useless early on; I mean how many StP do I have to defend my Juggy against?  If its more than 2, well, I guess I lose.  But in general, its just there to provide one critical defense.  Its job is not to defend everything all the time, its to defend your win from your opponents last ditch trick.

I'm frustrated with the Colossus right now, and actually I am frustrated with the Ranger.  When there was a lot more BtB floating around in my meta the Ranger was great.  Now, its just so-so.  Perhaps they should both go to the side.

Anyway, I have put up mini-reports for RGu TnT for the last few weeks.  One is "Random Thoughts about C&Js T1" while the other is buried in "Winning with Mask at C&Js" by Zhalfirin.  Feedback is welcome.

[stijndon]

Quote (Fishhead @ Mar. 14 2003,12:13)I'm frustrated with the Colossus right now, and actually I am frustrated with the Ranger.

Well, let me try my hand at a non non-magic-topics forum...

I have sometimes found RG TnT to be some sort of aggressive combo deck. First beat down with a fatty, get survival out and anger in the graveyard...

Play hasted Welder, weld out Colossus, and swing for an unsuspected 13+ damage.

The Colossus is so good for speeding up games, and all the arguments about him being a stall-breaker are all to true.

I've only had pleasurable experiences with the ranger so far, but then again, I do not play that much, so I don't think that I can say anything constructive about him. I just wanted to express my extreme fondness for the Colossus.

[Razor]

Cancerman: I was impressed with the FeverDog TNT build in Syracuse which used so much broken basic land.  Without it, cards like: Monkey, Miner, etc. more easily co-own it.  I agree that B2B is less common than ever before.  Q.Ranger is largely a wasted slot nowadays, eh?  As for his synergy with P.Collossus, just pay the 8 life or else Welder it away - who needs Q.Ranger?  I find 2 MD Naturalzies enough, generally.

Sylvan Safekeeper deserves a MD spot (or at least one in the SB) of every TNT deck simply because it prevents spot-removal from ruining your game.  I be reluctant to cut either the Lyrist or Genesis, though.  If your critters survive spot-removal you usually just win, right?  BTW, Safekeeper wrecks Balance sometimes if you sac lands in response.

Dante:

Quote I don't think Safekeeper is quite good enough to make the cut.

Early game - I'd rather draw fat or welders to put pressure on (not that welders put pressure directly, but any survival or dead fat can now come back).  Safekeeper with no Fat or welders is dumb.

Mid Game - If I have fat but no survival, I'd rather draw a welder to play tricks with artifacts to protect them than hamstring my mana using Safekeeper.  Or just draw more fat.  If I have survival going with no fat, I'd rather use it to get fat.  If I don't have survival or fat at this point, I'm not in too good of shape.

Basically I can't think of a maindeck card I'd like to cut for the Safekeeper and there are much better sideboard options for most matchups..

When I'm playing Survival decks I don't plan to "draw into" too many critters; rather, I plan to activate Survival's ability to fetch 'em.  So why you're so concerned about drawing into a lone Safekeeper in the opening game is beyond me.  If you do, then you can Survival him away or just cast him, no biggie.  Mid-game, your argument seems to indicate dropping Welders or Fatties for a Safekeeper which I don't advocate.

I'm interested in hearing the Keeper players' opinion on how disruptive Safekeeper is in here.\n\n

[FeverDog]

Razor, just a minor point. Although Cancerman was generous enough to lend me the cards for the tourney, the actual build is my own. I think me and Jules see eye-to-eye though, and  we definetly agree with the use of basic mountains. Trust us ppl, basic lands are broken, play them.

[Dante]

Quote (Razor @ Mar. 14 2003,15:18)Cancerman: I was impressed with the FeverDog TNT build in Syracuse which used so much broken basic land.  Without it, cards like: Monkey, Miner, etc. more easily co-own it.  I agree that B2B is less common than ever before.  Q.Ranger is largely a wasted slot nowadays, eh?  As for his synergy with P.Collossus, just pay the 8 life or else Welder it away - who needs Q.Ranger?  I find 2 MD Naturalzies enough, generally.

Sylvan Safekeeper deserves a MD spot (or at least one in the SB) of every TNT deck simply because it prevents spot-removal from ruining your game.  I be reluctant to cut either the Lyrist or Genesis, though.  If your critters survive spot-removal you usually just win, right?  BTW, Safekeeper wrecks Balance sometimes if you sac lands in response.

Dante:

Quote I don't think Safekeeper is quite good enough to make the cut.

Early game - I'd rather draw fat or welders to put pressure on (not that welders put pressure directly, but any survival or dead fat can now come back).  Safekeeper with no Fat or welders is dumb.

Mid Game - If I have fat but no survival, I'd rather draw a welder to play tricks with artifacts to protect them than hamstring my mana using Safekeeper.  Or just draw more fat.  If I have survival going with no fat, I'd rather use it to get fat.  If I don't have survival or fat at this point, I'm not in too good of shape.

Basically I can't think of a maindeck card I'd like to cut for the Safekeeper and there are much better sideboard options for most matchups..

When I'm playing Survival decks I don't plan to "draw into" too many critters; rather, I plan to activate Survival's ability to fetch 'em.  So why you're so concerned about drawing into a lone Safekeeper in the opening game is beyond me.  If you do, then you can Survival him away or just cast him, no biggie.  Mid-game, your argument seems to indicate dropping Welders or Fatties for a Safekeeper which I don't advocate.

I'm interested in hearing the Keeper players' opinion on how disruptive Safekeeper is in here.

On the Q. Ranger - what's the most powerful aspect of this deck - getting anger in the graveyard and abusing goblin welder over and over again.  What does Q. Ranger let you do - untap target creature.  I think what most people are missing is the ability to abuse Welder, not Colossus.  You can use your welder twice on your turn and once on the opponents turn.  I abuse Welder with Ranger a lot more than I untap the Big Nasty (Colossus) with it.  Are other people not finding this to be the case?  I love using 1 Welder 3 times between my turn and theirs (obviously you can't do that forever as you can only drop 1 land per turn, but even that boost should accelerate your game a lot more than using him once during your turn and waiting to untap).

Why are people putting basic mountains in their deck?? The only maindeck thing you actually want to cast is 4 goblin welders (and if you maindeck blood moon like I do, a couple of blood moons)...the deck wants to abuse green mana for survival.  I can see if you're scared about back to basics and I can see if you are maybe replacing a wasteland, maybe two, (I only run 1 strip 1 waste and have been happy with it) with a basic mountain, but if you are cutting a green source (taiga, fetchland, basic forest, or trop if you play blue) with a moutain, please, the hospital is that way.  I rarely find myself wishing I had more red mana in my deck.  (PS under blood moon, every land in your deck except basic forests will be a mountain, so that shouldn't be an issue).

If you've got survival going, what's the difference if you get safekeeper and protecting a creature from 1 spot removal spell when you can just survival another one up?? - I guess tempo, which is important but....

On the safekeeper as a whole, I've been thinking and I may have underestimated its usefulness.  I'll re-evaluate it in my deck.

Don't take out the maindeck Colossus - the only people who will like it are your opponents.

Dante

[Lord of the Goats]

i also have found ranger to be pretty poor. i don't use it to nullify wastelands since it can't save workshop. yeah, it's nice with a welder, but if i have an active welder i'm in pretty good shape anyway. in terms of fetching it via survival, it was pretty far down on the list.. well after all 4 juggs, trisks, anger, squee, and the 4 welders.  

safekeeper is odd, and i know that i don't want to waste a slot on it main deck since 1 copy won't be in my opening hand enough to really matter. if i have survival going i could just fetch a replacement with the same amount of effort. basically safekeeper lets you get around spot removal... isn't that role filled via survival?  also, safekeeper screws with your mana base and makes survivaling much harder.

[PsychoCid]

If you're not getting some ultra broken plays out of Ranger, I don't think you're playing the deck optimally.  I really didn't like her at first, but after giving her a chance, it's not hard to see that this is her best use ever. :|

My apologies for the short post in this forum, but I figure getting to the point without to much babble when you have nothing else significant to add is better than the opposite.

[FeverDog]

Obviously, i didnt cut any green sources for the mountains, i cut the Wastelands. While you dont need two, i prefer to have a second one in there and i really have never been unhappy to draw a mountain. Anyone who doesnt run at least one basic mountain in Green/Red TNT is seriously making a mistake. The ability to fetch a basic mountain has proved invaluable in my testing and i would never play the deck without them.

[Fishhead]

Quote Are other people not finding this to be the case?  I love using 1 Welder 3 times between my turn and theirs ...

Unless you are playing a 2x Trike build theres not a huge amount of stuff I can imagine you welding multiple times.  You can do tricks with Su-Chi to make mana, but basically, if I ever get to that point the game is already over.  Frankly, if you are multi-welding Trikes, the game is over soon also and it would be just as effective to have cast a second Welder as a Ranger+Welder.

Anyway, I see the Ranger as a "win more" card in terms of Welder tricks.  He's good against LD (which includes BtB) and he's a funny trick against non-optimal opponents.  He's a combo with Colossus.  But, I'm not sure that's good enough for a MD spot.

[pinkfloyd]

Quote Unless you are playing a 2x Trike build theres not a huge amount of stuff I can imagine you welding multiple times.  You can do tricks with Su-Chi to make mana, but basically, if I ever get to that point the game is already over.

It would also depend of if you are running Tangle Wire. Being able to make them tap 4 permenants each turn while not affecting your self is pretty good i've been told. The Ranger makes this very possible to do. But not everyone agree's that Tangle Wire should be in the deck main or sb. I find that Tangle Wire allows my Fatties to get through with less chances of being dirupted. It all comes down to personal likes and dislikes. Just my opionion.

[Zherbus]

Here is a quote from my Legion thread that I think applies to this discussion as well:

Quote However, I had another idea. I'm sure it won't be popular, but I am giving it a few games of testing. I am testing Scrapper in the Quirion Ranger slot. I hate to do that, but here is my reasoning:

1) I am not suffering on mana draws with the current manabase.

2) If you are using Welder already, you are winning. I know just how broken and game ending Rangers can be with Welders, but if I am winning anyways, then so be it.

3) With a pair of Sylvans, usually one resolves early allowing me to dig aggressively for land if need be.

If I find that opposing Wastelands hurt too much or that Welders really do need that boost, then obviously the change will be reverted.

[Lord of the Goats]

hell, i'm running 4 wire, a 3 color mana base, bouncer, and 2 trisks (and i have run collosus). if ranger's not good enough in there, i find it hard to believe that it's needed in any build that has less uses than mine. my testing agree's with zherbus's .

another point is that i rarely want (or can) to be welding multiple times until i have survival going... at which point i couldn't care less about ranger

[LoA]

If the general consensus on beating TnT involves removing the initial threat and messing with the manabase, then I would think the Ranger deserves a slot in most generic TnT decks.  At times, I find myself with too few on-color mana sources (even at 28 and only 1 Strip/1 Wasteland), and the Ranger has been golden in getting the Survival active.  It is difficult, however, to criticize the exclusion/inclusion of a single card without seeing the other 59 (something that happens a little too often).  While the skeleton of a TnT deck (Legion, R/G, R/G/u) is always the same, there is remarkable variation between versions and what works in one might be terrible in another.

Of course, this assumes a fairly diverse meta.  Tog will just race you and you don't want to be missing land drops in that matchup.  But as more and more people look to the early Strip to disrupt GAT, I expect to be getting more and more use out of my Ranger.

[Dante]

Quote (Fishhead @ Mar. 15 2003,23:32)

Quote Are other people not finding this to be the case?  I love using 1 Welder 3 times between my turn and theirs ...

Unless you are playing a 2x Trike build theres not a huge amount of stuff I can imagine you welding multiple times.  You can do tricks with Su-Chi to make mana, but basically, if I ever get to that point the game is already over.  Frankly, if you are multi-welding Trikes, the game is over soon also and it would be just as effective to have cast a second Welder as a Ranger+Welder.

Anyway, I see the Ranger as a "win more" card in terms of Welder tricks.  He's good against LD (which includes BtB) and he's a funny trick against non-optimal opponents.  He's a combo with Colossus.  But, I'm not sure that's good enough for a MD spot.

I do play a 2 Triskelion build.

Which option sounds more appealing:

Option 1 - Play welder and weld (1 use).  Next turn, play ranger, weld twice on your turn, 1 on theirs (4 uses).

Option two - play welder and weld (1 use).  Play welder and weld with both (3 uses).

The ranger also gives you the option of attacking with all your creatures and welding on your turn PLUS you have the option to untap the welder to weld up a blocker on the opponents turn or just untap a creature to block with.

I don't see it as a "win more" card, I see it as a "win faster" card and gives you more options (the blocker welding I mentioned above, saving land from wasteland, saving two points of damage to Price of Progress, untapping colossus without paying 8 life, another 3 damage from a Trisk, etc).  With Tog decks around that might be the few points of damage you need before they Gush-Wish-Berserk you to death.  Same thing with a Keeper deck - less time to draw into something broken.

Dante

[j_orlove]

Another issue is the potential rise of smokestack/wire decks (as seen in Dulmen). I played against two such decks at cooberp's tournament, and 4-0'd them (in games) with TnT (the builds were a little different, but the general principle was the same). The Ranger was absolutely essential to two of those wins, and it helped in a third game. Being able to use your welder three times every two turns is very strong against decks with smokestack, and untapping permanents and replaying land is broken against the wire.

This is probably not a huge concern yet, but if those decks can beat Tog, they will start showing up in the states, and having ranger available improves that matchup tremendously for TnT.


Edit: To extend this argument, Ranger is particularly strong against any other decks with artifacts/welders, because there you can take full advantage of your ability to control what stays on the board.

[Lord of the Goats]

in both of your situations you assume that
A) you want to weld that many times
B) that you can weld that many times
C) that you have anger

to me, that says you need survival to make it really good. i try to run as few cards as possible that aren't good without survival unless they're solving a specific problem (wonder).

[Dante]

Quote (Lord of the Goats @ Mar. 17 2003,10:11)in both of your situations you assume that
A) you want to weld that many times
B) that you can weld that many times
C) that you have anger

to me, that says you need survival to make it really good. i try to run as few cards as possible that aren't good without survival unless they're solving a specific problem (wonder).

In my situation, if I have two triskelions (which my deck does), I want to weld as many times as I can because they will machine gun the opponent (or his creatures) to death.  If I can recur my trisks 3 times instead of 2 for an extra 3 damage, isn't that the point of the game 20->0??

Let's say I have a Ranger and a Welder, but no Survival or Anger.  after summoning sickness is over for the welder, I can now weld 3 times as opposed to just once in the first turn (my turn and theirs).  If I don't have survival going, I may not have stuff to weld, but I have the option to do it quickly if I want to.

the Ranger isn't just good with Survival/Welder, it's good with Welder alone, it's good with Colossus, it's good vs any aggro deck as you can attack and still untap your fat to block, if a Tog player drops two togs you can bouncer both of them, or you can use bouncer if they timewalk, it's good against decks with Tangle wire (or if you play tangle wire) as j_orlove stated....it's not good all by itself as a 1/1, but there are so many cards in the deck it IS good with, it seems silly not to run it.  

On that note, I can see cutting it if you are putting in cards like Blood Moon, Tangle Wire, or other metagame cards that you think will win more games than the Ranger would, but I think saying that it's not necessary and that it's just a "win more" card is underestimating what it can do and with how many other cards in the deck it's good with.

Dante

[Lord of the Goats]

if you have 2 trikes and a welder you're going to win either way, or ranger won't help. if the point of the game was soley to go from 20>0 asap, wouldn't we all be running combo?

my testing shows that having the option to do something means exactly shit unless you can do it on a regular basis. that's like saying i should run channel just in case i draw lotus/emerald and 3 artifact creatures first turn. i agree that options are good.... provided you actually need the effect.

ranger may be useable with other parts of the deck, but my testing has shown that it's not good enough until you have survival going. it seems silly to run a card that's not fundamental to the deck, doesn't solve a specific problem, isn't good on it's own, and is only ok when interacting with the rest of the deck until you're winning.

now, if it's being used as a countermeasure against b2b/tanglewire/smokestack/winterorb/stasis, then that's fine.... although it's very unlikley that you'd want it main at this point.

[Fishhead]

Quote if you have 2 trikes and a welder you're going to win either way, or ranger won't help.

This is what I am trying to say also.  The thing about 2xTrike recursion is that I only find it relevant when my opponent has a Moat.  And in this narrow case, I'll still win as long as I can protect my Welders.  Its faster the more I can do Trike recursion tricks, but I cant think of the last game where this was actually necessary.  Partly this is because TnT with active Welders pumps out 20+ damage really quick already and 3 more from a recurred Trike just gets buried in the noise.

Quote Edit: To extend this argument, Ranger is particularly strong against any other decks with artifacts/welders, because there you can take full advantage of your ability to control what stays on the board.

Or, to put it another way, playing with Ranger allows you to play with essentially 5 Welders, and since these sort of matchups come down to Welder wars that is a visible advantage.  

I said early on that I liked the Ranger a lot more when I saw lots of BtB in the metagame (and when incidentally I was playing zero basic Forests), so I'm not averse to the Ranger if he serves a strong purpose.  I can definitely see him coming back if DuckTape catches on for instance.  But for right now, I think he is headed for my SB.

[Dante]

Just because you have Survival going, doesn't mean you're winning, especially in the mirror.  Whoever has the ability to Welder more often and faster will win.  It has been my experience (from testing as well as tournaments) that the Ranger maindeck has been nothing but good to me.  Not one time have I drawn it and thought, "Ugh.  I wish this was CardX".  The Colossus also has been huge for me and Ranger is a key way to untap it without losing 8 life.  Let's just agree to disagree on this then, since we seem to be repeating the same arguements over and over.

I'd like to have more discussion about the tangle wire in TnT than argue over the Ranger maindeck/sideboard.....PS Fishhead, if you sided it, what matchups would you bring it in for??

Dante

[Fishhead]

Quote I'd like to have more discussion about the tangle wire in TnT than argue over the Ranger maindeck/sideboard.....PS Fishhead, if you sided it, what matchups would you bring it in for??

It depends on how I construct my SB that day.  In general though, if I expected BtB I would bring him in.  So MonoU.  If I expected Wasteland & Sinkhole also.  So Void.  If I need more Welders he probably makes the cut too.  So mirror match and DuckTape-style decks.  

Sligh = no.  Keeper = no.  Mask = no.  GroTog = no, unless they showed an outmoded SB construction by bringing in BtB in Game 2.  Re-animator = no.  

What are your thoughts here?

--------------

On the question of Tangle Wire, the reason why Ducktape works is because it can back up the Tangle Wire gambit with a Smokestack lock.  In order to maintain this, it needs to draw lots of cheap-to-cast cards, its draw engine is Meditate.  

Basically, I cant do the same lockdown in TnT that I can in DuckTape, so I must consider the Tangle Wire to be something that buys me time, like in the old speed black decks.  The key there was dropping a little disruption and a Horror or Negator off Dark Ritual and then locking down with Tangle Wire before your opponent ever got any game.  I can see it in TnT as the Workshop fills the role of Ritual and the Juggy fills the role of Negator.  I dont have a Duress to force stuff through, and I'm not sure what I am cutting to play 4 Tangle Wires (which would seem to be a necessity).  But the idea is not stillborn, IMHO.

[Lord of the Goats]

fishhead hit the nail on the head, tangle wire works exactly like an old sui build. the difference is that it's weldable so rather than duress to force it through you get welder to recur it.... along with your creatures so the synergy is much better and it's reuseable.

another point is that it can be used to manipulate when they have manadrain mana up, and you can make them burn if they do manage to drain something... it's kinda hard to drop morph with 4 colorless and 1 blue. so it's important to remember that wire is useful both to force stuff through and to protect it.

finally, i've been testing karn over shaman so that i can animate the wires which has proved to be usefull so far... although i'm still in perliminary testing.

[Dante]

@ Fish - since I maindeck it, I hadn't really thought about what I'd side it in against..I'll ponder it heavily while I'm in Vegas tomorrow    

Dante

[Piggy]

Quote (Fishhead @ Mar. 17 2003,19:19)GroTog = no, unless they showed an outmoded SB construction by bringing in BtB in Game 2.  Re-animator = no.  

I don't see how you wouldn't want tangle wires vs. gro-tog or reanimator(although I have only one practice match vs. rean.) seeing as they have such a low amount of permanents, while yes GAT can gush, it's dryad or tog or library which may be in play are locked down plus who cares if they gush them back up as long as they don't have fastbond it isn't a big deal.

[j_orlove]

He was talking about Quirion Ranger, though.  

But yeah, Tangle Wire is good vs GAT.