Green/Red TNT

[FeverDog]

Here is the deck i chose to play in TMD Championships, i feel it is the best version of TNT for the current metagame. This is a strong claim of course, but lets look at the decklist first.

//NAME: TNT
        2 Sylvan Library
        4 Survival of the Fittest
        1 Genesis
        1 Elvish Lyrist
        1 Elvish Scrapper
        2 Blood Moon
        2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
        1 Anger
        1 Gorilla Shaman
        4 Goblin Welder
        2 Triskelion
        4 Juggernaut
        4 Su-Chi
        1 Masticore
        1 Memory Jar
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        2 Windswept Heath
        4 Wooded Foothills
        4 Taiga
        2 Mountain
        6 Forest
SB:  4 Naturalize
SB:  2 Uktabi Orangutan
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  2 Blood Moon
SB:  3 Tormod's Crypt

First thing that jumps out at you, maindeck Blood Moon. These were absolutely golden, winning several games for me throughout the day. Many of the top decks are afraid of this card, and for good reason. Keeper, GroTog, Psychatog, TNT(GRu, GRb) as well as most combo decks all fear Blood Moon. Even if your opponent runs basics, the ability to shut down someone's off-color as well as LoA and Mishras is just amazing. I have long abandoned Wastelands in TNT because of the need for colored mana and Blood Moon more than makes up for this. Sure, they arent great in every matchup, but when they're good they're REALLY good. I must give credit to Zherbus on this one, he was the one who mentioned it to me a couple of months ago and it turned out to be great advice.

Now, you also see an unusual amount of basics for a TNT deck, this is one of the keys. Basic lands are broken! Just ask Legend if you dont believe me, PoP for 2 isnt exactly game-breaking. I almost never use my fetch-lands on Taigas unless i have to. Really, the ability to ignore opposing non-basic hate is something i feel an aggro deck needs. TNT no longer has the biggest dudes so it cant rely on just running people over with hasted Juggies. Mana consistency has always been one of aggro's advantages and i believe it has to continue with TNT. This also has the added benefit of letting you run Blood Moon very effectively, which i have gone over already.

The only card i find questionable is Genesis. Though i have long been a suporter of this card, i cant remember that last time i used it. Perhaps once or twice in over 100 games, i dont think that cuts it, so im looking to move it to the sb most likely. For what? Im not sure yet, this is really the only aspect of the deck i feel isnt optimal and i am open to suggestions about this.

Obviously i welcome critiques, but dont just tell me to run Wastelands or that i NEED Genesis because my experience has clearly shown otherwise. Im not claiming this is THE list for every metagame. Some cards may not be worth a slot depending on your evironment, i build my decks for a varied metagame.

[Anonymous]

Having played R/G TNT for awhile I feel that I have a tight grip on the fundamentals of this deck.

First thing Blood Moon it cheese md. Personally I don't expect Blood Moon to be helpful in 1/2 of your matchups and would seem much better to run a more versatile maindeck card.

Also JDL and I are both great supporters of atleast 2 maindeck naturalize. This card is good agaisnt basically all of your matchups and worst comes to worst it will help you keep a mana advantage.

Elvish Scrapper<<<< Uktabi. I would personally run Uktabi way before Scrapper maindeck because simply Uktabi is effective right away a beatdown creature and its mana cost isn't at all difficult to reach.

Ok now the most prevelent part, your mana base. This deck unlike the version with splashes has a very solid manabase and has the ability to run wastelands while not diluting the deck. That is a very important reason for running this version of the deck. The two maindeck mountains are completely unnessesary. I personally have never been color hosed with this deck and in your version you will always have a red source with maindeck moons.

Thats all I have to say now and it is nice to see another tnt player.

[FeverDog]

@Westerdale
1) Blood Moon isnt cheese, not when its good vs more than half the field. of all the mono colored decks, only Sligh is popular right now, Someone inform me how many MonoU or MonoB decks were at TMDC.

2) Naturalize is utility, Blood Moon says "I win". Naturalize isnt never bad, but its never game-ending. Plus, thats why you have Lyrist/Scrapper(which can be searched for).

3) Look at it this way, barring your 1-in-53 chance of drawing one, Scrapper will be fetched via Survival. If this is the case, then it has haste and costs a whole mana less than the Monkey. This lets you Survival for it and sac it with 3 mana total. There are other, smaller reasons, but most people has switched to Scrapper maindeck for a reason.

4) Wastelands arent needed in TNT anyway, especially not this version. I dont care if you run a dozen artifacts, the deck still wants colored mana. As for not needing the Mountains, thats laughable. Ask anyone whos ever faced the deck what they think of Waste-proof red sources. Ill take a Mountain over a Wasteland any day with this deck.

[theorigamist]

westredale, the reason this version doesn't need Wastelands is because he plays MD Blood Moon.  That's all the non-basic hate he needs.

[j_orlove]

DicemanX mentioned the possibility of running SB Dawnstrider in R/G TnT, to help against the various Tog decks running around right now. Would that be worth it here?

Since it's not exactly a well-known T1 card:

Quote Dawnstrider

Color= Green  Type= Creature - Spellshaper  Cost= 1G MM®  
Text (MM): 1/1. ; ,{Tap},Discard a card from your hand: Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn.

[FeverDog]

@theorigamist
Thats true, but i dont think Wastelands are needed in TNT ever, whether you run Blood Moon or not. At most, i would run 1 Strip/1 Waste like Zherbus does, but i dont find they are needed at all.

@Orlove
I dont know, it really never occured to me. My main problem with it is that they can Wish for Smother and just kill me in one turn, and theres nothing i can do about it. Perhaps worth testing out.\n\n

[Lord of the Goats]

there was quite a bit of mono black, and i personally faced u/b phid which had enough basics to run b2b, and a u'g oath deck that couldn't care less about moon. also, hulk smash runs plenty of basics to get around moon. while i have been a big fan of md bloodmoon, and it has won quite a bit for me i have boarded them out almost every game over the past 3 tournaments. tangle wire is a more versatile card the serves a very similar function. you should take a look at it

as far as utility creatures, the only ones that i have even remotly wanted game 1 are wonder and waterfront bouncer.... neither of which are approprate for your build. lyrist, orangutan etc... have found a happy home in the board

i'll agree on the wasteland issue though. tnt never really wanted the, and they were the first thing i changed besides cutting loa in the original version. basic mountians however i've never seen a particular need for, especially with md moons since you can always drop a moon and make your other lands mountians.

[theorigamist]

FeverDog, a minor point, but why would they Wish for Smother against TnT?  I suppose it depends on board position and all that, but it would seem to make more sense to Wish for something like Rebuild against artifact fat that costs more than 3.  

[FeverDog]

@LotG
Well, they were golden for me, though i did say they werent for every metagame. As for utility creatures, i cant see not running them in a deck with Survival.

@theorigamist
They would wish for Smother when the only thing keeping them from Berserkatog is Dawnstrider.

[jpmeyer]

I think TnT will need a two-part strategery to win.  The first is to buy time with the Dawnstrider or Bouncer, but then TnT probably will need Wonder to get around blockers so that they can win before Wish/Smother/Berserk breaks up the lock.  I think Wonder is the play since Triskellion, Su-Chi/Masticore, or Genesis will probably be too slow.

[FeverDog]

@JP
So, you believe that in order for TNT to survive in a Tog-filled metagame, it will inevitably have to splash blue? I think thats what you are saying, but im unlcear on this. I would be sad if that was the case, because i see no other advantages to splashing blue, but every deck needs to be able to adapt to the metagame.

[dicemanX]

If you are running U, then obviously Bouncers are much better than Dawnstriders. I think that Wonder is necessary too in order to win the damage races vs GroTog.

One interesting thing that you can try though in R/G is to couple the Dawnstrider to that 1/1 G creature that makes any creature untargettable if you sac a land (Olle's card...dammit, what is it called?). That way, GroTog can't touch you if you get that combo out. This, however, depends on resolving a Survival early and digging like crazy to get both creatures out asap, although Ollie's card could wait because they can't Wish for a removal spell that quickly. The nice thing about Ollie's card is that it's not useless in other match-ups that feature pinpoint removal.

The other options in G/R are the two artifacts: LotG suggestion of Tanglewire (useful against the field it seems), and my suggestion of the more narrow Sphere of Resistance (SB card vs Groatog).

[Dante]

Quote (FeverDog @ Mar. 10 2003,11:56)@JP
So, you believe that in order for TNT to survive in a Tog-filled metagame, it will inevitably have to splash blue? I think thats what you are saying, but im unlcear on this. I would be sad if that was the case, because i see no other advantages to splashing blue, but every deck needs to be able to adapt to the metagame.

the colossus also helps as a large blocker for either tog or dryads, and it can be brought back with welders.  Combination of colossus and bouncer (or dawnstrider in G/r) to stall/hold off.  Quirion Ranger lets you bouncer multiple creatures or if they try to play around it with Time Walk.  It also lets the colossus attack and block again without paying 8 life.  If you don't play blue for bouncer, you'd probably need to go triskelion machine gun or ranger/colossus for the win.  With blue, you can bouncer the creatures and attack or side in wonder.

Whether its G/r or splashed with blue, Colossus really belongs in this deck.  JDL and I both had it and loved it (and he had a G/r version), it was my MVP.  The toronto players have had great success with it as well as Team Goat I believe...

Dante

[FeverDog]

Actually, i believe the TO players are moving away from Colossus, at least i know Razor is. However, their environment is relatively Tog-free at the moment so that may mix things up a bit. I dont hate the idea of Colossus, but i hate the fact that he is barely castable, though he couldnt be worse than Genesis. He does make an excellent blocker, even vs Tog, because they cant afford to waste all those cards and NOT kill you.

[jpmeyer]

Quote (FeverDog @ Mar. 10 2003,13:15)Actually, i believe the TO players are moving away from Colossus, at least i know Razor is. However, their environment is relatively Tog-free at the moment so that may mix things up a bit. I dont hate the idea of Colossus, but i hate the fact that he is barely castable, though he couldnt be worse than Genesis. He does make an excellent blocker, even vs Tog, because they cant afford to waste all those cards and NOT kill you.

I think it's either Wonder or Colossus.  I'd prefer Wonder because it takes less work to set up since I'd feel uncomfortable paying the life to Colossus if I couldn't use Welder to untap it.

HOWEVER, one really cool play that I saw was one guy untap a Colossus to take down an attacking creature.  Usually I just see people untapping it during their upkeep so I actually never knew that you can untap it at any time.

[Dante]

Quote (FeverDog @ Mar. 10 2003,12:15)Actually, i believe the TO players are moving away from Colossus, at least i know Razor is. However, their environment is relatively Tog-free at the moment so that may mix things up a bit. I dont hate the idea of Colossus, but i hate the fact that he is barely castable, though he couldnt be worse than Genesis. He does make an excellent blocker, even vs Tog, because they cant afford to waste all those cards and NOT kill you.

Exactly, it will take them a long time to get a Dryad to 9/9 and if they use all the cards with Tog to kill it, then then they won't kill you..all of which gives you time to setup survival or beatings...

Out of all the matches, there was really only 1 time when my Colossus wasn't castable and I just pitched it to survival and welded it into play next turn.

The colossus won me game 3 of my first match last saturday that I would have lost if that had been a Su-Chi or anything else really.  That would have made top 8'ing really hard as I would have needed to win every match (or draw just once and win out).  The colossus also won me game 3 of my first round top 8 match.  Any other creature would have had about an even board position or at least given him a chance to block for several turns, but he couldn't block the colossus.  It was great for me and I haven't once wanted something else in it's slot.

Dante

[j_orlove]

Quote I think it's either Wonder or Colossus.  I'd prefer Wonder because it takes less work to set up since I'd feel uncomfortable paying the life to Colossus if I couldn't use Welder to untap it.

Black has Filth, which is less consistent (Gush can stop it), but it might work as a substitute Wonder vs Tog decks for RGb TnT.

[FeverDog]

Filth is a decent idea for the sb, although Gush could be problematic.

Man, everyone is coming up with some good stuff, keep it coming, much to test.

[theorigamist]

I can't remember who it was, but somebody suggested Sentinel.  That would definitely stop a Berserked Tog, and if they try to get rid of it you can Welder to protect it.

[Dante]

Quote (jpmeyer @ Mar. 10 2003,13:01)

Quote (FeverDog @ Mar. 10 2003,13:15)Actually, i believe the TO players are moving away from Colossus, at least i know Razor is. However, their environment is relatively Tog-free at the moment so that may mix things up a bit. I dont hate the idea of Colossus, but i hate the fact that he is barely castable, though he couldnt be worse than Genesis. He does make an excellent blocker, even vs Tog, because they cant afford to waste all those cards and NOT kill you.

I think it's either Wonder or Colossus.  I'd prefer Wonder because it takes less work to set up since I'd feel uncomfortable paying the life to Colossus if I couldn't use Welder to untap it.

HOWEVER, one really cool play that I saw was one guy untap a Colossus to take down an attacking creature.  Usually I just see people untapping it during their upkeep so I actually never knew that you can untap it at any time.

Wonder is nice for avoiding their creatures to get beats in, but it won't actually stop their Tog or Dryad.  A Colossus will stop all but the biggest Dryads and will cause them to lose enough cards killing it via Tog that they can't kill you.  

Plus you can do fun tricks (tricks that kill creatures and win games, not just cool tricks) with it via Welder, Ranger, or just paying 8 life.

@theorigamist - Sentinel is good at stopping them, yes.  So if you have Bouncer and Colossus, plus siding in Sentinel plus the usual (rebs, etc) you have a lot of options.  It's still all about getting an early Survival/Bouncer out though.

Dante

If Binding Grasp didn't have an upkeep cost, I might consider that in my G/R/u version.

[Razor]

Quote Actually, i believe the TO players are moving away from Colossus, at least i know Razor is.

FeverDog, you're kidding, right?  After all, I'm the guy who pleaded with you to maindeck at least 1 Collossus before the tourney even began.  BeBe may have called Collossus the MVP of his deck.  BeBe suggested the Sentinel tech.

I have been advocating for 1 MD Sylvan Safekeeper in TNT for some time, now.  It turns the near-auto-loss Parfait matchup into a winnable matchup.

[bebe]

No way I would play TnT without Colossus/Ranger. Colossus has won me more matches than any creature in the deck. Diceman uses Naughts/Mask in his build. Uber-fat is good.

Sentinel never got played last tournament against tog because I got the Bouncer out first. In testing it has been golden.

I concede to Parfait. Especially Razor playing it. I think i've one game in four on average no matter what I add. I'm going to bring out some new tech this tournament and if all goes well a list and report will follow.

[FeverDog]

@Razor

Sorry Ray, that was my mistake, I remember us talking about the Ranger being unnecessary and for some reason I always associate it with the Colossus. I do remember you pushing for the Colosus, and I have to say that I agree with you. I have replaced the Masticor with it.

[Razor]

I wouldn't go so far as to drop Masticore from the MD entirely, either.  Usually, he gives you card advantage rather than disadvantage, right.

I'm not sure on how much the Q.Ranger helps, but I am positive that TNT will benefit from at least 1 MD S.Safekeeper.  Why?  Decks like Keeper are teaching men to farm more now than ever before; should we rename Keeper, "Farmer" [Plowshares].

Safekeeper stops spot-removal from stopping your main threats, your fatties.  Sure, they can still disenchant your Survivals and wreck your manabase a little, but who cares when your Welders/Fatties are safe and swinging?

2c from a guy who has only ever sat across from TNT praying they don't drop a Safekeeper.

[Lord of the Goats]

first, i definatly agree with half of jp's 2 part strategy, that's exactly why i originally tried out the bouncer. although i'm not sure exactly how important evasion will be since you can just bounce their tog/dryad eot and swing unhindered. i supose if you have dawnstrider/sentinal then it becomes an issue.

second, yes, team goat has had some success with collosus. however, it did get cut. i found ranger to not be worth running alone which leaves me with either double welder or pay 8 life to untap it. double welder means you should win either way. paying 8 life is doable, but i'd much rather be draing cards off sylvan library. that's not so much of an issue when plow is the only removal you see, but after getting the damn thing disenchanted after you pay the life or repeatedly tapped with fire/ice you really think twice about it. i'd play it in r/g tnt but i think that r/g/u is better off with wonder.

btw, a collosus only blocks 8 damage. it's not hard for tog players to get an additional 8 damage in with berserk. looking ahead to april 1st that won't even be an issue.

safekeper is interesting, and it's good against gro tog assuming you already have bouncer to protect. you also don't need much mana  in that matchup so you can afford to use the safekeeper. however, i'm thinking that there's a lot of times when you really don't want to use it. i definatly see situations where you could bite yourself in the ass with it. although it is nice that it will save you from price of progressand screw balance over rather nicely. it could be worth it but i think it's one of those "should be good but doesn't make the cut for some reason" cards. you could just bring in an aditional bouncer. it saves your creatures and makes tog smother twice as well as being much better in that match on it's own.

[pinkfloyd]

I play the R/G version of TnT and am using the Ranger/Colossus to hold off GAT along with 3 md Blood Moon's and 3 md Tangle Wire's. I droped the Sylvan Library's. I agree with the GAT players in their idea of letting Sylvan resolve its just to slow in that match up. Every time I have sat down against GAT it has been over before a Sylvan could produse some results that would turn the game around.
As for this idea of Sylvan Safekeeper it sounds good but the more I think about it the more I dislike it. I have enough problems with 28 manasources in a 2 colored version, I don't understand how the R/G/u versions mana base can support sacking their land even if it is to protect creature's. Balance, Starstorm, Diabolic/Chainers Edict, and Wrath of God and other non targeting removal will get around this and what if that comes after you sacked a bunch of land to keep your fatties/utilities alive. I just think the manabase is to unstable to be messing around with sacking your lands.
After looking at the report from Chicago I am deffinetly convinced that R/G is better than R/G/u due to the stability of the manabase. And the main deck Blood Moon is just great in all the match ups against control excluding URPhid and BBS not to mention Blood Moon recks combo. It is even good against R/G/u TnT as was proved at Chicago.
As for the R/G/b TnT I do not have enough experiance with it to judge it. Although I would expect it to have many of the same problems as the R/G/u TNT build. I do like the idea of having Chains and Duress though it comes at the cost of not so stable mana base.

[FeverDog]

Firstly, its GAT(GroATog), not GTA. Second, although Sylvan may be marginal in that matchup its still very good versus a lot of decks. Even if you cant pay life to draw extra cards, the deck has enough shuffle effects in it to make it worth playing.

Sylvan Safekeeper i dont really like. Its not that his effect isnt good, the problem is that its not good early, when it really matters. Are you gonna sac a land to protect your Juggy on the second turn? I think not, its too much lost tempo, and versus a removal-heavy deck you could end up with no land very easily. I think the only place it really shines is late-game, but by then it wont make enough of a difference.

[bebe]

Just an aside on the Colossus - we had three TnT in the top four. Would you like Colossus in a mirror? I sure do. It breaks open games that are deadlocked.

[FeverDog]

I believe i mentioned already that i have started running the Colossus. I havent really done any testing yet, but i really like it as a finisher, especially in RG versions. There are times when the opponent is able to get a Morphling or Tog out, where you normally would have to rely on Trisk recursion, Colossus is a much easier way to say GG.

[Dante]

Quote (pinkfloyd @ Mar. 12 2003,02:25)After looking at the report from Chicago I am deffinetly convinced that R/G is better than R/G/u due to the stability of the manabase. And the main deck Blood Moon is just great in all the match ups against control excluding URPhid and BBS not to mention Blood Moon recks combo. It is even good against R/G/u TnT as was proved at Chicago.

If you are going to maindeck 4 Blood Moons, then obviously G/r is better than adding blue since 5 forests > 2 forests when trying to survival....However, if I had known JDL had maindecked 4 instead of 2, I would have fetched a basic forest in our top 8 matchup rather than a third taiga, and that would have made all the difference as I could have starting survivaling two turns before him and gottens trisks out to keep his welders off the table.

I'm not convinced G/r is better than adding blue...

Dante